Design Matters with Debbie Millman

29:03So 1998. How did you know that the future was podcasting? I didn't. I didn't. I was doing, I really took on this opportunity with Voice America as a sort of Hail Mary to my creativity. Because at that point, I got to Sterling in 95. It was almost 10 years later. I had, as I said, really dedicated my whole life to this business, which also do not regret, not for a minute. But at the time, felt like my creative spirit was maybe dying. And here, Voice America was offering me an opportunity to do something creative that I could kind of own. And it felt like, despite the fact that they wanted me to have a show that was the topic of which was branding, I was able to convince them to let me do it about design.

29:54And that became my way to sort of resurrect my creativity. And I did that for four years. Those four years of episodes, those hundred episodes that I did on Voice America are essentially unlistenable. Do they exist somewhere on the internet? Oh, they do. They do. I'm not going to tell anybody where. Is it because of the microphones or you just feel like - Yeah. I mean, I started doing it. There was no technology for this. You on a phone? I was doing it on a landline. A landline telephone? A landline telephone talking to somebody across from me as close as you and I are here. Yeah. On another landline.

30:30Yeah. You couldn't just order from Amazon and get it the next day. Right? Yeah. Right. And so it was, you know, when in the old days when you lived in a house that had a landline and grandma called and everybody sort of bounded to the telephones and you were all on different extensions in the house. See, Kevin is nodding his head, but he doesn't really know. What are you talking about? I've used a landline. I still have memory of dialing numbers. I know numbers from much out of it. Yeah, so if two people were on the same landline but different phone sets, you got this terrible echo. You know how like when you're on Zoom?

31:04Sure. And when somebody else is in the room and then there's all that feed. Well, that was what it was like. I was talking to my mom. For 100 episodes? 100 episodes. Well, no, no, no. The first 50 or so were done that way. And then I was able to get a special kind of device that took the two lines and then melded it through a modem. But I was able to get microphones at that point. Nice. But it was still really tinny and thin and terrible. How does it feel now that there are podcasts like schools and like luxury buildings in Brooklyn where like the apartment building has a podcast studio as an amenity?

31:41Like every white guy in America has a microphone. and should there be do we need to regulate should there be uh no no i don't think so i mean at first nobody understood what i was talking about sure like what's a podcast yeah broadcast podcast they didn't understand and now it's like oh you also everybody eight million other people but but it is what it is but it is what it is and um did someone comment on because i if i remember this correctly, you were doing the show. I was doing the show. You weren't. It was a live show. That's the other thing. Commercials, call-ins. So someone said, hey, I want to listen to your show, but I can't listen during the time in which you do the show.

32:24Yeah. Can you upload it to this thing on Apple called Podcasts? Right. And that's how Design Matters the Podcast begins? It was even before there was a podcast section. Somebody wrote me online on my blog saying, now that we have this new iPod, can you upload it to iTunes? Yeah, so that I can download it. So I can download it as if you were an indie musician because indie musicians could do that. Sure. It's revolutionary time. Bryony Gomez-Palacio, Armin Witt's partner in Brand New. Okay. Shout out to Armin. And they were running a site called Speak Up at the time. Bryony taught me how to do it.

33:06She's the one that helped me upload the first episodes. Do you remember who the person was who reached out to you on your blog? Michael Holden. Wow. Shout out to Michael. Shout out to Michael Holden. And one day I was doing a talk somewhere and I was talking about, and I had a slide. I had a screenshot of the comment on my blog and Michael was in the audience. Wow. Well, what a hero. What a hero. It's truly changed the course of your life. Absolutely. The foresight. Yeah. So that was in 2005. And then there was a podcast section shortly thereafter. So like within a year. Were they calling them podcasts at that point or was it still something else?

33:46They had started calling them podcasts in, I think, 2004. Whoa. And then I started calling it a podcast after it was then. I think by July of 2005, they were on iTunes. That's incredible. Now, Apple Podcasts. Incredible. And one of the things that I've been laying in bed at night thinking, how do I interview the world's greatest interviewer? So please hold here. Big question alert. So over the last 20, 30 years, design has increased in the public consciousness considerably. I think about this a lot because when I went to college, I was a graphic designer. No one really knew what that meant. I got a Mac and they were like, what is this computer?

34:29How do I get into it? Where is the computer? It's in this flower. And so it's become this thing that my mom doesn't need to sort of explain at dinner parties. Really? Wow. Yeah. That's phenomenal. People know what a designer does. Or if she says, yeah, he does logos and packaging. From your perspective, obviously, you've seen this change considerably. How has that made the industry, how has it made it better? And maybe how has it made it worse? This is a question that I've been considering as younger, new designers come into the field. And it feels like everyone wants to be a designer. Everyone wants to be a creative director.

35:11people are you know sort of taking freelance jobs as soon as they possibly can to be honest and I question what does it mean it's evolving like any other discipline it's a fairly new discipline as is branding yeah I graduated college in 1983 so 40th anniversary this year yeah 50 years for hip-hop right yeah and when I first started in in the design business my my dad didn't understand what I did I remember many many times sitting with him watching football a Pepsi commercial would come on and he'd be like you did that right I'm like no dad I did not and he would be so crestfallen he would be so crushed by the idea that that wasn't what I did because he wanted it to be so badly what I did.

36:05And I would show him, you know, it's the can, it's the can, not the commercial. And he just never really fully understood it. But I think that the more people that understand what it is, the more power it has. Yeah. I think that's a beautiful way to describe it because I do think there were many years in which designers felt like they had to get the table get the seat at the table and fight for design's value and say this label right here is going to be the thing not the commercial that makes people fall in love with absolutely who we are and why we exist and i think that certain companies have elevated the awareness that good design contributes to business in a really significant way.

36:56And that's something that has benefited every designer everywhere. I remember when I came on Design Matters, you were talking about how there was a time in which people thought you couldn't have good design in a grocery store. Looking back, or now that we're in 2023, if you go to the bodega right below our studio, it is like the dialine.com. It is a beautiful display of world-class design and packaging. And it almost makes me consider it's not enough to be good looking design in 2023 because that used to be a way to stand out, right? Method was like, we're the well-designed soap. Go for us. With good packaging and that differentiated them.

37:42Now, every soap and every pancake mix and every bag of chips has what I would consider aesthetically pleasing design. Certainly better. Certainly a lot better. Yeah. You were right, Debbie. Good design can exist. And to be honest, it has really ushered in a wave, I think, of this sort of even in the last 10 years, I think, even since starting Center. People say, oh, you started a design studio to get on the wave of consumer packaged goods. Well, no, no, no, no, no. You helped create that wave. Well, thank you, Debbie. Let's be very, very honest. You did that at Coca-Cola and now you're doing it at Center.

38:17And it's people like you, like Tosh Hall, that are showing the world, like Emily Oberman and Paula Sher at Pentagram, that the world can have beautifully designed packages that really sell well. Wow. Thank you, Debbie. That's a huge compliment. But I do think about vitamin water in that trajectory where it was one of the first lifestyle brands that you would take and it would be a fashion accessory. Absolutely. And now I think every consumer packaged good strives to be that. Absolutely. What brands do you look at? Maybe that came out in the last five, ten years. More of the newer brands that you admire or look at and think, wow, they do a pretty great job.

38:58Well, your United Soda is quite… You don't need to… I'm not. I'm looking at it. It's gorgeous. You don't need to butter us up, Debbie. But yeah, clip that and put it out there for the press page of our website. Well, it's really funny because Roxanne teases me, I don't like to have any packaging displayed in the house unless it's beautiful. And so that really affects what we have in our bathroom, in the kitchen. So Las Labos is a beautiful brand of soap that I love to have in the bathroom. Prose is another brand that I really love. Hair care. For hair care, yeah. Shower cap. That's a shower cap.

39:43And so I will tend not to buy something that I think looks ugly. I really have issues with Dawn soap detergent. And I think a new generation grows up with that sort of sensibility, which is like, I can get any one of these soaps. There are now multiple options of good clean soap. So why would I ever have one that looks horrid? Well, the problem is, and this is where corporations need to pay a lot more attention, is in the efficacy of the brand. Because if the brand is beautiful, but it doesn't do as good a job as, say, Dawn dishwashing detergent, then people that care about how their dishes are clean aren't going to necessarily buy the product that is inferior.

40:37All that being said, I keep Dawn hidden under the sink. I got Dawn. Because it's too ugly to look at. It's so good. You can't beat it. It's so good. But it's so ugly. Yeah. I mean, I do think a lot of these brands, not the ones behind me, because they're all great products, but the brands that, to your point, sort of prioritize aesthetics, which is great for a center design studio LLC, email us at hello at center.design. But some of them maybe don't prioritize the products as much, and the drinks don't taste as good as vitamin water tastes, or the soap doesn't work as good as Dawn does. So I do think that I always say I can make you try it once, but if it doesn't work or you don't like the way it tastes, you're not going to come back no matter how beautiful the brand is or how important the brand is or whatever it's doing for society.

41:24Right. And that's what I think corporations have to be very mindful of. Beautiful design will inspire trial, but great products will inspire loyalty. Yeah. How do you feel about the weedification of New York? Oh. I'm so sad about this. I was so excited to see a storefront near my house become occupied. And it had prior to COVID been a really nice sort of upscale bodega. And I was always able to find my kind bar flavor there. And I would get it on the way to work. I'd walk past it and get it. And then it closed. And I saw fleetingly as I was passing by in a taxi that it had reopened. But it was so fast.

42:18I was like, oh, wow, it reopened. And then I discovered that it's called high society. Yeah. And the weed vernacular has a rather wide range at the moment. Yeah. Zaza is my personal favorite. And high society is just kind of not working for me. It sounds classy. I was going to say, it sounds bougie and kind of upscale. You'd think, right? No, ugly neon sign, really terrible script. It probably could be worse, though. Anything can be worse. Anything and everything can be worse. They all have a very similar aesthetic. Like I've noticed these stores, they're everywhere. They're on every corner, almost as prevalent as bodegas are, where you need one on each side of a block.

43:03But it's very 1980s nail salon graphics. I find they look like man caves. They have like, you know, like - Yeah, a lot of lazy boys in them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, absolutely. Some have like red carpet, like runways and like - Oh, yeah. It's really - You feel like a star when you're going in there though. It's kind of. It reminds me a little bit, There was a great sex toy store on the corner of 7th Avenue and 11th Street called Pleasure Chest. Kind of has a vibe of that. Yeah. High Society. And Kevin's looking at me a little bit like, whoa, didn't see that one coming. I love those stores. Who doesn't?

43:42I don't know. I love a trashy aesthetic. Yeah. I mean, maybe it sucks when it takes over your bodega, but I don't know. I really - It's quite a thing. I like them. Everything is so prim and proper these days. is I love something just real shitty. Yeah, very Vegas. It's taken over. Old Vegas. Yeah, the fact, Old Vegas. It's definitely, yeah, it feels like the strip. Yeah. But it's Zaza stores, which I never heard of the term Zaza to your point about vernacular. I never heard of Zaza being a weed store. Now it's Zaza world and Zaza everything. I was like, who knew? Debbie, before we go, we have just a couple more country questions here on my list.

44:18Good, I'm having so much fun. I'm so glad you're having fun. You're taking the show on the road. Design Matters is going on tour for the first time. Are you excited? What's on the rider? What do you got planned? No rider as far as I know. I don't know if you're aware of the On Air Fest. It's a podcast festival that happens every year in Brooklyn and in Los Angeles. Looking at you, On Air Fest. Doing a lot of, yeah, absolutely. I've been part of the festival for the last couple of years. And they asked me if I'd be interested in doing this little mini tour. And I was like, no. Why would anybody buy tickets to come see me do a podcast?

45:03And so I asked Roxanne if she'd do it with me because I figured, well, people will want to come and listen to Roxanne. And she said yes. And so I said, okay, as long as Roxanne could do it with me. And they were like, sure. and yeah we're going to starting in Brooklyn at the Music Hall of Williamsburg on September 18th with Jada Boomrad who is a podcasting god he was one of the co-hosts and co-founders of Radio Lab and Roy Woods Jr who's one of the funniest comedians alive yeah and then Joan as police woman is going to do a musical interlude for us so that's going to be exciting that's what a show That's Brooklyn.

45:43Then the next day we go to Boston with Celeste Ng, who wrote Little Fires Everywhere. So that'll be wonderful. Then on Wednesday we go to DC and we are interviewing Kara Swisher. Okay. So yeah, another podcast goddess. Small time names. Yeah, right. And then we're going to Philly and interviewing Audie Cornish from CNN. Amazing. And All Things Considered. So yeah, a lot of really cool people. I am very excited about this. And I will say if you are a fan of Design Matters, obviously, you should get tickets. But I had the privilege of seeing you do a live show and you had you and Roxanne open up, I believe, as the sort of intro before the show.

46:26And I could have watched you guys talk for 12 hours. Oh, thank you. The dynamic between the two of you, that is the real show, in my opinion. The dynamic, the insights into your, you know, sort of personal life and the sort of the dynamic between the two of you. And is just so fun. And you guys are so wonderful. And she is an open book. She loves to, you know, talk about, you know, pop culture and sort of all these things. There's really nobody in the world that knows more about pop culture than Roxane Gay. I love it so much because she obviously is an incredible author and has done so much for society.

47:06So the fact that she tweets about Joe Jonas and, you know. Well, she has a book coming out in October called Opinions. Okay. And a lot of it is the columns that she's written for the New York Times and The Guardian. But there's also a whole section of pieces that she's written for Harper's Bazaar or Elle Magazine about celebrities. And that's the sort of most fun part of the book as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, me too. I love the celebrities. To have a, you know, she's a gossip columnist. Yeah, yeah. I mean, her interviews with Janelle Monae and Tessa Thompson are so good. Yeah. And you get so deep that, yeah, they're included in the book.

47:45And so she's doing all the dates. She's coming on the tour. She's coming on the whole thing with me. Oh, my God. Yeah. It definitely should go. And we're trying to decide. The interviews sound pretty good, too. But the two of you guys just talking about anything, I think, is amazing. We're also thinking about bringing Max. We're not sure. Maximus Toreno Blueberry Millman. The dog, yeah. Our dog. Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, hence the second name. Fast and the furious. Is that the dog that's featured on your one and only TikTok? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin went, again, looking, diving deep into the brand, the TikTok.

48:17It was a good TikTok. It's a great TikTok. It is Max in the car window. And I took it from, I filmed the rear view mirror. Yeah. The side rear view mirror. And his hair is blowing back. It's a great TikTok. With.

48:37And it is, I think it's classy. Yeah, no, I'm waiting for the second TikTok. Yeah, we need some more. I mean, I shouldn't talk. I think I have five. They're mostly just clips from the show that I put there. Yeah, maybe, you know, somebody said to me the other day that I should really put this show up on YouTube. And I'm like, why would people just want to listen on YouTube? And apparently that's a very big thing. That's why we have all these cameras here. It's because people like to watch as we talk. Right. But I don't know that I see the reason why I love radio and podcasting is I don't have to think about how I look.

49:08Yeah. Once I have to start being self-conscious, it takes away from my focus on my guest. That's true. I do think about it when I get dressed on Tuesdays. I'm like, oh, what am I going to wear on this YouTube? Did I wear that last week? And is this hat dirty? Right. Those are the things I think about. But you're right. And I was thinking about that when we were coming over here, Amelia, my friend and my colleague, we were talking about, oh, I wonder if they're going to tape this. I'm like, well, at least I'm having a better hair day than yesterday, which was just a disaster. Well, you look great.

49:37Well, yeah. And it's a million degrees outside. So no one would have any thoughts. As I would say to Roxanne, love goggles. Yeah, it is. It's truly one of the worst days in New York in terms of just the humidity and the grossness. Yeah, but we're still in New York. It's in New York and it's the best city in the world. It is. Before we go, I have so many questions, but one more. You do so much writing. You're a famous author, seven books and counting. Do you have more books coming? I do. I do. Yeah. I don't have a specific book coming out. Yes. But I'm working on something now that I'm hoping will be - Coming out sometime.

50:16At some point, yeah. Do you use chat GPT? Do you use AI? Have you ever used it? Not to write the book, obviously. But just in your life as someone who - That's a great question. So I tried to use Mid Journey. Okay. So when we were at the How Conference and Poum LeBoufure was talking about her beautiful work, I tried and I failed. I can't even get Mid Journey to work for me. Okay. Like I can't figure out. No, I'm not techno. I am a technophobe. Okay. Like I can't even get the remote to work in our LA house. Like seriously, I have to. They're very complicated systems. Can you turn on the TV for me, please?

50:55So I haven't been able to figure it out. All that being said, last semester when we were working on thesis with the students, they used MidJourney to create images for their thesis. Now, where I think this is really helpful is in creating images for something that doesn't exist. So, for example, they were repositioning the Archie brand, Archie Comics. And they were rethinking how Archie, the comic boy, the boy in the comic, can be portrayed. And so they put prompts in to mid-journey Archie Andrews as an Indian girl. And suddenly we have a visual. A visual. In 10 seconds. And it's really good. Yeah.

51:51And so I was really impressed with using AI to create something that hasn't been made. So how do you visualize this character in an entirely new way? Yeah. That was very exciting to me. Then I also had another student that accidentally let us know that they use GPT for the content, the language. And that's not allowed. Yeah. So we do have an AI policy now. for the students, you are allowed to use AI in research and helping you find. You're allowed to use AI for developing visuals that help express a new idea, but you can't use AI to develop the content. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, we use it quite a bit because I do think it does help, to your point, visualize some things.

52:45For a project, right, we're doing granola bars, say, and you want a picture with drizzle from shot from over top with little specks of peanut butter. I'm just making it up. It's definitely not a client that we have to deliver work for today. But it does sound delicious. And yeah, you can go and do a photo shoot and get the prop stylist and the, you know, sort of the real product. And, or you could just type in overhead shot, you know, peanut butter drizzle granola bar, high def and get options. Wow. And it does make for mock-ups or things like that. Really incredible. on the mid-journey side I also struggle with how to use it and the prompts and the sort of discord.

53:25Yeah I need to ask Pum for a tutorial Yes, that's why I have young people like Kevin. I don't know how to use mid-journey I've never opened it. Wow. I just I use GPT as like a smart research assistant. I'm like tell me about this stuff or like give me things that relate to this and then I use that to branch out. Yeah I have to try that angle I think you would like it Because it is really startlingly powerful. So like for today, this whole podcast, all the interview questions were written by a computer origin story, design heroes, design threats. No, I'm kidding. But it is really amazing if I said write a bio for Debbie Millman or write an acceptance speech for an award.

54:02And you won't just copy and paste it, but it will give you some interesting thoughts or some interesting direction. Maybe directional guidelines. Or if you try to name an energy drink. I'm just looking at my chat. It's not that good at naming. It's not that good at naming. Nova. Nova. Let's do it. Callback. Nova's a great name for an energy drink. See, that's why she's the goat. Callback. Amazing. I mean, we should probably end the show there, but it is rapid fire questions. Oh, sure. Okay. Is a hot dog a sandwich? A hot dog is a sandwich as long as it's not covered with too many vegetables. then it becomes what you once referred to as a salad.

54:46So you don't like Chicago dogs, huh? I do like Chicago dogs because that's not too many vegetables. There's no lettuce on a Chicago dog. What's your bodega order? You hinted at a kind bar. I like the dark chocolate peanut butter, and they don't always have those. Mine is Tate's cookies, Haagen-Dazs, chocolate chocolate chip ice cream, and Sour Strauss. Oh, that's just if I'm trying to be healthy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I was going in for like a midnight run. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. We're talking Diet Dr. Pepper and an ice cream sandwich. Diet Dr. Pepper. Have you tried those new ice cream sandwiches that come in the paper bags?

55:27No. Kevin? They're incredible. I don't know what they're called. We need to figure out what they're called. Jackie and Kevin are both obsessed with them. Okay. And they have them in some of the finer bodegas around town. I like the good humor, old school ice cream sandwich. when ice cream is a sandwich. Yeah. Right? There you go. Not a salad.

55:51And if I have a hankering, it's really a good moment. Yeah. Do you also get that at like an ice cream truck? Like a Mr. Softy? No. At a Mr. Softy, I would get a chocolate ice cream cone with chocolate sprinkles. Nice. Yeah. There's nothing better than just classic. Most famous person in your phone? Ooh, that's a good one. So it has to be the phone number, right? So like the actual phone number. I guess so, yeah. It could be more like, yeah. If you're DMing on Instagram, that could be as well. That's pretty much in your phone or like something like that. Lin-Manuel Miranda. Wow, that's a good one.

56:30Kevin has a good Lin-Manuel impression. Kevin, do you want to do it? Ooh, let me hear it. I don't want to do it. Oh, that's... He's shy. I'm shy. He's so shy. Do you want to just do the facial one? The facial one? Oh, that's good. Very good. Yeah, there you go. I hope that's caught on the YouTube. Outside of your home and classic items, what's your most egregious purchase that you ever made? Egregious purchase. Yeah, like I'm just getting it for myself because I want it. A verdure ring after I sold my business. Jewelry. Yeah. I don't even wear gold. But that was – Like why did I buy it? I don't wear gold.

57:11I'm a silver person. And I bought this ring that is gold. But you sold the company and you had to buy something. Yeah. I had always had this sort of thirst for something Vadorah and bought this ring, which is gorgeous and is actually appreciated in value. So that's nice. But I've worn it once. Okay. What was I thinking? Yeah. Well, that's the right time to do it, though. Yeah. Do you wear it? No. I've worn it once. Yeah. Once. It's sitting in a safe somewhere. But you have it. I have it. And it's a symbol of the moment. It's a symbol of freedom. I love that. Nice. And indulgence. Favorite brand mascot of all time.

57:51Ooh, that's a good one. Mr. Bubble. Who's Mr. Bubble? I don't know. That's a good one. Mr. Bubble is the mascot on the brand Mr. Bubble, which is a brand of bath bubbles for kids. I didn't take that many bubble baths as a kid. that's a really good mascot yeah that's a horrible Mr. Bubble I was like the wise owl the wise owl did a lot for me when I was a kid wise potato chips clearly I ate a lot of junk food the Drake's the Drake's the yodel the yodels yeah the Drake's duck I like a Drake yodel in the fridge or in like if you like put it yeah it's one of those snacks that if you yeah make it colder it's better I think what's a Drake's yodel Whoa.

58:41Oh, God. Oh, no. What's with you guys? You're asking me about mascots, and you don't know some of the greatest of all time. I know. I shut it down, Kevin. It was going so well until the very, very end here. We're not actually going to even put any of this on the show. Dead or Alive, if you could have anyone on your podcast, any single guest, who would it be? Great question. There's so many. Oh, my God. Well, definitely Albert Einstein. Yeah. So that would be the dead person. and the alive person, Barbara Streisand. Cool. We play a game called Mount Rushmore around here, four things unranked. Mount Rushmore of sandwiches.

59:19Kevin and I are big sandwich guys. I am too. So I'm going to just post them out there so you can, you know, tuna melt, BLT, bacon, egg, and cheese, the Nova sandwich. What do you put up? What's Debbie Millman's? Like favorite, favorite, favorite, favorite sandwich? Yeah, only pick four. Oof. Meatball hero. Nice. okay sandwiches yeah a hamburger okay yeah a sandwich any from any particular new york establishment um i would say five guys are in and out yeah we're talking about five guys the other day in the studio it's kind of forgotten and a little bit like it came in hot when it came out and then it kind of sizzled a lot but if you go it's it's still it's just not that big in new York.

1:00:07There's just not that many locations. Is that true? Like in the Midwest, it's still pop. That's such an elitist thing for me to say. Gyro. Okay. Gyro. A lot of tzatziki. Yeah. You're making me hungry now. Everything bagel with just a sliver of scallion cream cheese, really good Scottish salmon, onion, tomato, lettuce, cucumber. Wow. Debbie, I had high hopes for this interview. And with that answer, you officially knocked it out of the park. I do have one more question, Debbie. So on a sincere note, you've had this illustrious career. You've had so many amazing sort of victories and awards. And your bio, again, has just so many incredible lines in it.

1:00:58I'm just old, Alex. I've been doing this a long time. Just old. You're not that old, Debbie. Um, what do you want your legacy to be? Big legacy question. Last night in our third day of a brand new class of students at SVA in the Masters of Branding program, we continued with part two of an exercise that I got from Seymour Quast, the great, that There's a goat for you. He had told me many years ago about a project that he used to start his classes, which is asking all of the students to create a non-representational psychological self-portrait. So it can't be a picture of yourself. It has to be something that represents you.

1:01:51And then we ask all our students to talk about that. And in the first, actually after the first day is the orientation day and the next two days we do this exercise. And last night, one of the students created a mood board of sorts with layers expressing the various aspects of who she is and how she likes to show up in the world. And the very outer layer was a pattern of letters that were T-P-W-K. T-P-W-K. And when I asked her what they meant, she said, treat people with kindness. And I would like that to be my legacy. Debbie, that's wow. I was so moved by that. Yeah. Well, that's a beautiful way to end the show.

1:02:42And thank you for all your kindness from the bottom of my heart for all that you've done for me. I know you do so much for so many designers. There's thousands of us out there that are just, you know, sort of have you to thank for so much. So to have you on our show is a true honor. You're a friend and someone that I've looked up to for a long time. Thank you. Do you want to plug anything? Do you want to? Yeah, I just love that. Love being here. Love being in your studio. Love that you're working with Grace Dawson, another huge hero of mine. Thank you, Kevin, for being so wonderful and so funny and friendly.

1:03:20Thank you. Thank you, Debbie.

1:03:47It's like a jungle sometimes It makes me wonder how I keep from going under It's like a jungle sometimes It makes me wonder how I keep from going under

1:04:06Broken glass everywhere People pissing on the stage You know they just don't care. I can't take the smell. Can't take the noise. Got no money to move out. I guess I got no choice. Rats in the front room. Roaders in the back. Junkies in the alley with a baseball bat. I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far. Cause a man with a tow truck repossessed my car. Don't push me. Cause I'm close to the edge. I'm trying not to lose my head. It's like a jungle sometimes. It makes me wonder how I keep from going under. Thank you.