For the Love of the Game: with Jen and Amy Hood

29:45Those 30 for 30s, they're great. I think it was, I think it was. Do you guys watch a lot of those sports docs? Because I watch every single of them. The Beckham one? I got into soccer because of the Beckham one. I'm like 20 years too late to the Beckham. They're converting Americans to soccer still through the Beckham documentary. Yeah, no, it was true because I didn't know that much about him, which is the best place where you're like, you kind of know that he's a star. Obviously, he's David Beckham. But like all that information about the teams and how the country turned on him, I was like, whoa, this is all pretty crazy.

30:13Again, with the booing and they like booed him when he came. Yeah. That's what Clay Thompson should have got. No, I'm kidding. a big round of work but don't you think that it's kind of like totally reflective of like how the culture has shifted like now it's very much like everyone has a voice like we should all feel seen when we go to these basketball games do you know but i mean like i think it just reflects on like the tone that we all take now like everywhere like at the office and it's filtered all the way down to basketball so yeah participation trophy uh generation kevin uh go off alex yeah exactly defend all of Gen Z Kevin everyone gets a trophy and everyone gets a parade when they come back after they were the second Splash brother I didn't grow up in a participation trophy culture I was fighting he was scrapping in the streets another thing I love about chutzpah outside of the name which I will only say chutzpah I love it we get so many West Coasters that are like chutzpah is it chutzpah like oh my gosh what it's a great name how did uh how did when did chutzpah the idea like obviously uh the hoods chutzpah it makes a lot of sense but like when did you like this should be the name of our studio honestly i sometimes i regret it but it is it served itself well for like seo purposes and just things like that um it feels like yeah there's it's us and a jewish rapper in new york and that's it we're just that's the only other person um but when we grew up in Syracuse, everyone used chutzpah.

31:40That was just common vernacular. I didn't realize how regional it was until we named our business that. And then I was like, oh, okay. So there's a learning curve here. Yeah. I'm sure there's some awkward moments where you're like, so chutzpah is a Jewish term. I never correct. I don't even correct if someone calls me Jen, so I just don't correct. I like to wait and see how long someone tries to go without saying it. They're just trying to avoid saying the name ever, you know? It's like... It's a great word and it's got great meaning. And I think it's one of those words that just like is such a...

32:14It's a timeless word, but it's an old-timey word, which I think is why like moxie, right? Every agency... I remember at Vitamin Water, we used to try to name moxie, like every flavor, like, oh, it's called moxie. And there's like some company that owns the word trademark and you can never get it. But everyone Everyone wants to be called Moxie because it means essentially the same, I guess, that's right. It's like courage. It's like one of those words that Joe Biden would bring out every now and again. We're just like, what generation is this from? So you guys, obviously twins. That was another thing that we had to research.

32:49I was pretty confident you guys were twins, but I wasn't a hundred percent sure. Have you guys always worked together? Is that something that you were going to say? I literally thought you were going to say, have you guys always been twins? I don't know. Have you guys always been twins? I was going to ask that. That's Kevin's question. Hand up. When did you guys become twins? We literally had. We do get people all the time. They're like, so when's your birthday? But when's your birthday? We've always worked together pretty much. Accidentally, we didn't want to. We tried to have our own personality.

33:20It's just really hard when you both have the same talent. Our mom was always really strict. She would spank us. If we said even shut up to each other. you know so we really got along we became allies early on and um but yeah i think it's always because we both like to draw we were always doodling and like drawing stuff at home or you know whatever and she also had the screen time limit so we had to yeah we just like one episode of simpsons a day it was like all the pop culture we got yeah nice so yeah it was just always drawing and doodling together and then yeah she bought us like um how your kid can be a millionaire it was like the lemonade stand book or something it was like how okay anyway she had visions of what we could be but she gave us this book as a kid and it was like a kid's book about how to start a business or something i don't remember i think it stuck because it was like how to start a lemonade stand and then like it all correlated to business she had these like big visions and so i think it's like always stuck we tried to make our own like holiday card company and then yeah and we always were trying to like you know schlep stuff and we're always trying to do some scheme that's for sure yeah hell yeah look at you now yeah how how yeah look you made it you did it yeah family business yeah the lemonade stand has got shit on you guys you know lebron and brawny that's right you guys started you know designing doing uh you know graphic design uh sort of uh training as as kids you know just to get you ready here's a full circle idea for you oh what about a children's book you know how to start okay but no heaven no it's see it's too i feel like i see i've seen too many do you know what i mean like the designer to children's book like jump pipeline has been too true it's a it's a road well trod jessica has that market cornered uh she's not how to corner it's too many people have done it well and so i'm like i know it is yeah it's so hard like that's harder than getting into hollywood is doing kids books books in general it's just not lucrative yeah yeah that's why we self-published ours and like we make we probably make better money even though we don't sell as many we make better money probably than a lot of like good well-published authors yeah because we don't share it with the publisher we just you know DIY it uh with that's right the road or whatever yeah hell yeah so as uh as a duo how do you guys like uh break down your kind of roles do you guys do uh sort of the same thing you guys have uh sort of uh different uh positions you guys uh uh inhabit at chutzpah I feel like yeah the more we grow the more we're like getting comfortable with our roles I think at first you're like don't pigeonhole me I can do that you know and all that kind of stuff and this is really thinking kind of get in the way but I think now we really know like our strengths and weaknesses.

35:55And that's the only way you can grow is if you kind of like understand like your strengths and weaknesses. So yeah, I think we've definitely been embracing that more. Like Jen's definitely like the strategic mind. I'm helpful too, but like, I'm not good with my words. So it's like Jen is mostly talking in the meetings. And, um, and then I just kind of pitch in with like hype guy stuff. I'm like Ronnie Turiaff on the sidelines. It's like getting everybody stoked and, um, what a reference. And apparently it's Roni Turiaff. I just can't get myself to say it right. But yeah, I think Jen's really good at the strategy side.

36:27And then I love doing just like, you know, a lot of execution. I do a lot of our type side, although you've gotten into that recently. Yeah, but you do more of the custom type. But yeah, we both do like the logo work and we still both do creative. It's just, and then you run all the social and promotion and like that kind of stuff. But yeah. But yeah, trying to divide and conquer as much as we can. And then like when like, you know, the bigger projects come along where it's like, we have to have all hands on deck though. And it's like, we get the big brain trust of everybody and everybody kind of pitches in and we get our, our subs and everybody.

36:56And yeah, it's sort of flexed studio like that, where we'll sub in a lot of people as we need them. But we're like really small. I mean, there's only four of us. You guys are a behemoth compared to us. Yeah. And we are nine. Yeah. Massive. Huge, huge. Yeah. But so you guys have two employees. so uh if i'm kind of doing my math correctly uh there's two of you and then there's two employees making four when did you guys decide that you were like hey we're gonna start to like build out a team or at least have some full-time people that support you guys yeah it was a typical thing you just get to yeah yeah we pretty much just got too busy and we were just like all right let's just keep and we wanted to keep taking it on so we just kept um we subbed some people as long as it made sense and then we got an intern and then the intern turned into our first employee arturo who's still with us and he's amazing and he does a lot of our like retainer projects so he like um you know that's all he does almost and then b is more of our office admin and we started teaching her the family business so she's now we're training her as a designer illustrator and so she's helping us with some more like production style stuff um but like we still do all of our own quoting we don't have project managers we do all our own project managing like it we kind of just it's like we kind of just do it from start to finish everything else so damn impressive you You guys really do it all.

38:15So just to, so you do, I just heard PR, social, strategy, design, accounting. Okay, we don't do accounting. We are trying to outsource more and more. Like we're offloading as much as we can and we're trying to like, yeah, I mean, we've thought about growing even bigger too, but it's just so nice per project, especially with brand identity to be able to like pick the best person for each project. So it's like, I feel like we have a really solid team of four and then like per project as we need. And like, we basically have a fifth member in Ethan Silva. He's like our motion guy. But, but yeah, it's so nice being small, honestly.

38:49And we, we tried to grow and then we were like, oh, and then we have to keep regular hours. And then, and then we pretty much just took it back and now everybody works remote and we all just like do our own time. Like as long as we get it done. Everyone in California is basically like, you know, work to live. So it's kind of just like, you know, and everyone has that. This California lifestyle, you know, it really. rubs me the wrong way you know living working to live oh gross what about the hustle what about the grind you know come on but honestly that's why we get fractionally by because we lived in new york and kentucky both hard work ethic kind of you know centers so it's like just that little bit of extra that we put in just makes us soar above all the californians you're doing circles around these california these lazy californians that are out surfing yeah yeah we're chugging away.

39:41Yeah, no, that's amazing. And do you guys feel like a desire or pressure to like want to make it bigger? Because I think that's something that I think about a lot. I get asked a lot. People are like, do you want to expand? Do you want to? And I, I've really wrestled with this a lot because as a designer who sometimes has irrational confidence, it's like, oh man, maybe I could, you know, build out an army of center west and center east and center south. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'll just, you know, we could take over other design studios, you know and just and then then in practice though for me i have found it's much better to stay small and and it's just more fun that way but do you guys feel that pressure or that sort of push and pull i'm with you i agree like we did at first we tried to grow and it was kind of earlier on when we were way less equipped and prepared and knowledgeable and we just became managers we weren't doing the creative anymore and we just i don't know like we probably could have figured it out better but i'm with you i don't yeah i don't think it's like after like i don't think it's right for us and we were just like we could still get the choice projects if we just focus on the quality even if it's less and i think that's we're also um well we actually talked to mutual friend of the pod mackey saturday we were talking with him and we were shout out to mackey and he he's one of those people who's a mentor that didn't know he was a mentor i just kept asking him things and he just kept telling me and i was like and he gave me so much great advice but um I was asking him about growing I was like oh yeah we have to get bigger so we can get bigger name he's like why I was like uh and I literally didn't have an answer and he was like you know he was working with saggy have even guy smart have you saggy he was working with them at the time and he was something like yeah and he was saying like you know we have like we're a small team and we do all those big projects that you want to do it's like you just really need the reputation and you just need to prove yourself like on a few projects you know And I was like, that is so.

41:31And it's kind of crazy that now this is a world and an economy where the small or studios are actually thriving. And it's like all of the people who have worked with the big agencies are disillusioned. And like the pendulum swing. Yes, definitely. And they're like overpaying the blow. It's like it's no longer like the cool thing to tout how much you paid. Now it's like we're being smart and we're being strategic and we don't need the song and dance, but we still want the quality work, you know. So, which is kind of the dream for you guys to be small, but also to have, you know, Disney, Adobe, you know, these type of big clients, because then you could basically, yeah, do the dream projects.

42:05And I imagine a lot of these are for you guys. Like, you know, something I always love where you guys post the sort of Disney film titles. Like, can you talk about sort of some of those kind of how that happened? Because I would imagine for a lot of people out there, that's like, you know, that is the New York Knicks of. design opportunities. And in the same way, it's kind of like, you know, everyone dreams about doing sports branding and it's like no shade to sports branding, but it's like, it doesn't pay what you think it does. Like that, just get that out of the way right off the bat. Like it doesn't pay what you think it does.

42:37And there's a lot of people that go into making a movie. And, um, it's so it's like, I think people hear like dollar signs when they hear like sports, um, hospitality and entertainment. And all of those industries are notoriously like not, it's not just like raking in the dollars. So I think that's like the first thing, but it's like the work is so fun it's so rewarding it's like you know it's like you don't do it for that for sure but um and it's also not like it pays it doesn't pay terrible i'm just saying like it's not i think people think it's like you're just raking it in you know but um yeah they hear disney and you're like oh you got that disney money yeah you know of course it's like unfortunately that that all went to robert downey jr and scarlett johansson it's not very trickle down I read somewhere you guys make$12 million a film.

43:22Is that true? Is that right? Have you ever looked at those sites where they estimate your net worth? And I'm looking at it. I'm like, no, this is so wrong. Yeah, they have Dun & Bradstreet or whatever those kinds. It's the net worth. Imagine they had that for graphic designers. And when I say it's wrong, we make more than what they said. That's right. First, they go to the logo designers and then to the actresses and actors. Everyone knows that. Everyone knows that. But yeah, the Disney stuff is so fun. Like, it's honestly just like being a kid. You know, when you used to be a kid and you'd be given like a report and you had to like design the cover of it or something.

43:58And it's like all very thematic and very straightforward. It's like this movie is about a red panda and this movie is about a, you know, and it's like and you have to integrate a red panda into it. It's like I love how straightforward it is. And it's just like as creative as you can get sort of, you know, like it's the more is more is welcomed there. Yeah. And we definitely thrive for that. I think it's so fun. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever we can do it, we say yes, like anytime they'll let us do it. So it's, it's, it's a blast, but I mean, just like with everything right now, like that industry is definitely like having, it's definitely like shrinking in projects.

44:28So it's like that slowed down a lot for us. We used to do tons of that stuff and that slowed down for us a lot just because the industry has slowed down a lot. So it is nice having like just being in a lot of different industries. That's the cool thing about being like a freelancer or a small studio is it's like so easy to pivot because you don't have all your eggs in one basket. Yeah. Yeah. I think when I think of you guys, yeah, I don't think of necessarily a particular industry or vertical, which I think is just a credit to your work and how diverse it is and how it's just, it's good design.

44:57It doesn't really matter. But I imagine some of those Disney projects, like I always say this here, it's like the secret is I would do it for free. I don't, I don't tell people that like, actually sometimes I do, like we were on a call with a 24, a shout out to a 24. And I was like, Wow. I don't want to tell you this because then you guys are going to expect this. But like, I would do basically anything you guys want to do. And I don't think it's not about the money. I don't care. Like, and it's just because I like, yeah, it's genuinely true. But I, we said that one time in a meeting and I know it like, it made it awkward.

45:30It made it awkward. And I remember being like, have some self-respect. Yes, truly. Cause it's kind of like, especially I feel like out here, it's like, you're not supposed to care, you know? And it's just like, I don't know. It's so too overeager. I was, we were too over eager. I remember getting off that call. I think this every time now, I'm like, we lost it. We lost the project. And then they'll call two weeks later. They're like, you got it. So I'm not a good read. Do you think you'll get the A24? Spoiler, we didn't get the A24. Oh. Maybe we're too over eager. Should we be playing part to get?

45:57Yeah. Okay. But do you all do the follow up where it's like, can you tell us why you didn't go with you? Oh, no, no. Too thin skin for that. Never. Never. I couldn't be like, hey, tell me what's wrong with me actually. Yeah. Let's do a post-mortem. Can you point at my applause? Yeah. No, I'm too sensitive for that kind of stuff. But people do that. They like to know. Often friends of mine that run studios are like, do you know who you go up against? And I was like, I don't want to know that kind of stuff. Like, I don't want to know. Like, I don't care. Like, honestly, like there's enough work out here, I think, for all of us.

46:32And I don't really see it as competitive like that, except for the Creative Boom top 25 design studio. We don't care about that. We don't care about that. But again, we don't care about that. We just don't. We don't care about that. Stop bringing it up, you guys. Stop bringing it up, guys. I get it. Yeah, you guys were number six. We get it. Like, it's very cool of you. I forget. Oh, is it Amon, Ra, St. Brown? He can list the top, like, 50 players that were picked before him in the NFL draft. Oh, my. That's incredible. Yeah, that's going to be me in the creative boom list. I'm like, number one, Pentagram.

47:06Number two, Porter Rocha. you got the first two i don't know number three uh don't lie yeah no i don't number six i don't i don't i do get i don't get competitive and i think maybe that is a flaw but i often i think that's right yeah i think it is too but then sometimes i really want the job particularly when you know it's a good one or you know it's something that's gonna you know it would be a good fit and you know like they are kind of wondering if you're just a little too small and you're like, no, no, trust me. Like we could do this. Like we could do this. I feel like there's been a few that we've lost out on where I'm just like, we could have done such a good job, but usually if we lose out, I'm usually of the mind that like, it just wasn't a good fit.

47:48Like if they, if they were kind of doubting it, like you wouldn't want to get that and then just be uphill battle, like fighting them about every decision, you know? So yeah. That's good coping. Yeah, no, that's good. You're like, it wasn't for me, Brooklyn museum. I get it. We didn't want that project anyway. Kevin bleeped that out. No, I think you're right, though. I think it's healthy to really want stuff sometimes. Yeah. It's cool to care. We had a brand launch called Bureau with Tom Holland. Incredible. Stunning. Thank you. I wasn't looking for compliments, but keep them coming. In every way.

48:20No, but truly. It was. It's so good. I didn't want to bring it up, but I did bring it up just in case. How's Tom? How close are you with Tom? Are you guys doing like suburbs together in like Ibiza or what's going on? we've texted three times and he responded once the true test is if he introduces you to Zendaya then you know like you're FaceTime him right now he did introduce me to Zendaya which is a real true story that did happen and we've already talked about it on the podcast so I don't want to get sound like the guy that just keeps talking about that he met Zendaya but I've come back down to earth I was you know my head I couldn't even fit in the doorway way.

48:58I was just floating around because of my time with Zendaya. But that is the reason why I bring up the project is because I really wanted it. Like I was like, one of those things where it's like, it's a really cool opportunity. Like, just like we know that like, and like, we just knew that it was going to be something great. And we knew that it was a good fit for us. Obviously, as people that do a lot of beverages and just non-alcoholic beer and just knew that there was an opportunity. And just so, I think it's important to when you do really want something, I've learned that, I think through that project.

49:26And this year, it's like, it's okay to like, really try really hard. And do you think that's what sold it? Like it was that connection, the passion that you showed when you were pitching and stuff or doing the proposal? I think so. Yeah, I think there was for the first time in our studio's history, we were like, we really want this. How can we get it? Yeah. Which I don't think we've ever actually done before. And did you do anything different than your normal process because you really wanted to say? Yeah. So I would not, not a ton, but one thing that we did, we pitched for it, but which is that they asked us to do that, But not with design, with just thinking.

50:00Yeah, right. Proposal variant. Which is like kind of – we did go above and beyond on that sort of proposal, which was like more of a creative proposal, which is more of a strategic, like how we're thinking about the industry and the opportunity. And we want to build a brand like Tom that was very handsome and premium and sort of charming and all that kind of stuff. But we did actually spend a little bit of time with the client ahead of that pitch. And I think sometimes – this is useful information. Sometimes we could be useful as a podcast, Kevin. Is that okay? We're always useful. Stop dogging us.

50:33I think sometimes someone will ask for a proposal, and then we'll just go away, make it, send it over, and just be like, hope we get it. And then you're like, well, we didn't really form a relationship with a client ahead of time. So I think for that project in the sort of like meeting, one meeting where we've had, we're like, how can we get this? Which I don't think we typically do. we were like okay maybe if we build a relationship with the people that are ultimately going to be part of making the decision and that way it'll be harder for them to say no yeah so you just invited yourself over for brunch at tom's house like we need to get to know you to pick this yeah we need to spend a lot of time with tom uh but no i think that was something that we we had a previous relationship with one of the people that was involved it wasn't not tom uh but uh and i think we were like, okay, maybe we can get on a call and ask you questions about the proposal.

51:27And then maybe get on another call and like walk you through the proposal. And then maybe the pitch deck, we could share you ahead of time, just like more interactions. And I think that helped us. And I think it's good, useful tip. Maybe. Yeah, absolutely. I know it's like, we, we teach a visual identity course and a business course. And everyone's always asking like, you know, how do you get work? How do you land work and all that kind of stuff. And it's easy. It's hard Cause it's like, at first you really need to show your worth and you need to convince people to pay you properly. And you're really trying to get up to that level.

51:58But then at a certain level, it's like, you almost, you have to stop thinking about like that's over budget or like, that's not in the scope or something. I feel like sometimes it's just good for the project and you just do it because it's good for the project. And it's like other projects will kind of like fill that in and you have, you have income coming from elsewhere. I'm not saying like you're going to go into debt or anything over it, but I'm just saying Like sometimes you're not nickel and diming and doing change orders because you just know that this is going to be good and you just want to.

52:22And you're putting a lot in up front before the payment even comes to this. Yeah. I talk about this all the time. Like a lot of the work that you see behind me are projects that we did at a somewhat discounted rate because we knew they were going to be good for our studio. Point blank period. Yes. Thinking of it in that way is so important because it's all getting your name out there and proving your value and also just building a portfolio and also being a part of cool brands. I think that's something that really matters when you are building a studio. And sometimes you don't need to be getting – the money will come and go for the project.

53:02And I hate to say it like that, but it's like the portfolio piece lives forever. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And especially to people like I have so many friends I want to refer that are like crazy talented. Their work is nowhere. And I'm like, if you didn't do the case study, like it didn't happen. Like, you know, like, I don't know. And it's just like being able to show work that you've done. And like, even like people are like, how do I get them to pay for like photo shoots of work at the end? I'm like, put the bill yourself until you have clients that will do it. Because that makes such a huge difference in like how you show off what you've done.

53:32Like at a certain point, you have to say like, this is my marketing budget and I'm investing in me. and I'm investing in this client also. And it's like, and then they're like, well, how do I get the client to pay for it after? It's like, no, just give it to the client at that point. It's like, just be for the client. And then when they do their next bigger thing or when they refer you to their friend that's doing the bigger thing, like it comes back. I think it's really easy to try to nickel and dime everything. And it's like, what happened to customer service? You know? Damn, what happened to customer service?

53:59We're in the service industry, Kevin. I'm like really bitter. I'm really bitter because I have gone through like three pool guys at this point. And like, I'm just like, everybody's telling me different things. And I'm just like, what happened to customer service? Like, I don't know who to trust anymore. That's the name of the episode, Kevin. What happened to customer service with Hutzpah? Walked in. Walked in. You felt so out of touch. I know. I'm renting. It's part of the rental. No, it's so important. Actually, I think we're doing this right now. At the moment, right now, we are working both on case study materials that we're just going to send to the client so they can have them for free, not getting paid for them.

54:35And then also on our friend Bureau, we did a photo shoot just in our studio. We rented a studio across the hallway. We got a bunch of lights and shot one of the main images of our case study because we wanted it, period. I think that sometimes it's like the client is – it can be very hard to convince a client that something is worthwhile sometimes if they're not familiar with it. And photo shoots are a big one I found anyway. Motion can be a big one. They just kind of think like it's extraneous. Yeah. And for those things where we just know it will make a big difference, what we'll do is we'll put on the proposal, our gift to you.

55:08They'll have cut it out of the scope and we'll say, our gift to you, please go with us. We want to do this. We think it'll make a big difference, so much so that we want to gift it to you. And people freaking love the our gift to you. I'll tell you what, in our proposals. and it's gift with purchase the free it's like sephora insider points you know it's like yeah sephora vips 40 40 chess right there yeah that is 40 i like this because what we do is we just we just put the bill for it and then we don't even like we it's a surprise and delight moment but they're not even that delighted they're and they're more surprised so i think you're right Like, and I think it's probably better to say, Hey, we're going to do this.

55:50We're going to pay for it. Or maybe it's going to, it's work we're going to do that. You should pay us for, but we're not going to charge you. So therefore it makes them feel better. And also you get credit for the fact that you had to do it. You kind of get some points early on. Yeah. Yeah. I know people like in our course, you know, we had people doing like, you know, they're doing like kind of like fake projects, which I feel like now have become so, you see them so often that it's like it to me if I see a real project out in the wild it's so much more impactful to me because they had a real client somebody who said yes somebody who said no so I told all these students they're like well how do we present these to the people we're doing it for even because they didn't ask for it and how do I get them to pay for it if they like it and I'm like just get it to them like I don't know how to say this but like having real work in your portfolio that got made they still have to change all the signage all the trucks all they didn't ask for it and they didn't ask you to do this so like if they want it and if they're willing to like make it a reality.

56:42Like to me, just give it to them. And everyone was so pissed off. And Joe was like, well, here's a way that you can ask them to pay for it. But I really do believe that if you can get real work made, that is so much more valuable. And that proves to the future people coming to your site what you can do, as opposed to just mock-ups that everyone now knows and can see from like a mile away. Let's go back to the work. One of my favorite projects is SeatGeek that you guys did. I remember when that came out. And as someone that does like sports and goes to lots of events and was a StubHub kind of guy.

57:12I don't remember what the brand looked like, but I remember it was a pretty massive overhaul. It was not like a refresh, as they say now. It was a full-on rebrand where new identity, new colors, new everything, new feeling. And I thought it was really well done. So congrats on that. And just curious, what was that process like? What was the sort of project like for you guys as a small studio doing one of the big week overhaul rebrands and we haven't actually well and either yeah yeah it was amazing it was probably one of our bigger opportunities that opened up a lot of um doors for us but we actually got brought in from the disney work that we do because we did so many title treatments yeah yeah they had referenced some of that i think oh did yeah okay but we got brought in actually in the middle we didn't do the whole thing so mother did the strategy and a lot of the like the color type.

58:06But for whatever reason, everyone just wasn't quite aligning on the actual logo. And so eventually it just kind of gave to that point where it's like, all right, we just need to get like a little bit of fresh perspective in here. And so they just tapped us to, you know, do concepts for just the logo, which was really interesting to be brought into like kind of midway, you know, and see the strategy and be able to work within those confines. So, and then we did that. But another thing where someone would have been like, might have said like, oh, if we don't get to do the whole thing, like we can't just come in the middle, we have to do the strategy, we don't understand how to just do a logo it's like no I'll just do your logo it's SeatGeek like you know so we were like cool and um you know so we did and luckily uh one of the concepts that we you know designed got chosen and so it shipped with the final rollout and uh Mickey who did the illustrations like we kind of worked at the same time as him and it all turned out to an amazing portfolio piece but um yeah that was like probably the first because we had done a lot of um work for known brands but not like the logo or you know what I mean like it was like their campaign or like this sub brand for this event or it was a lot like Red Bull event type things you know like the branding for that kind of stuff small micro branding um and so that was one of the first things where people like you could actually pitch it to other like when we you know uh went in for a proposal for ILM like having the SeatGeek logo and like we did this like was really helpful for then be like, okay, these aren't just like Yahoo's off the street.

59:30Like they haven't done some, you know, reputable work for, even if it was just the logo, I think most people kind of, the logo is kind of what they kind of like think of with the core. And we ended up getting to do like, and again, it's one of those things where I think our mentor was always really great. He's like, he was like, just treat the clients you have really well, and it'll lead to more work, you know? And so I think we're always just trying to go the extra mile so that you don't have to land new clients. So they came back, we did a custom typeface, We did all these posters. We're still doing stuff with them.

59:57So I think it's one of those where it did end up being like almost more visual identity work for them than we ever anticipated just with the logo. So it was a gateway to much more work, even though it for sure piecemeal. So important. Another thing that I think young designers shout out to Kevin, like Kevin's generation gets wrong where it's something that they don't know. No, I think it's like over delivery is not like, you know, like a bad thing. It shows that you want to go above and beyond a brief or that you're thinking about the work in different ways or you have abilities maybe that are outside of the way that they're thinking about you as a design studio.

1:00:36I think another thing that happens to everybody is like you get pigeonholed, right? If you are sort of – Big time. You know, whatever is in your portfolio, people will assume that you can only do that or their imaginations are – and this happens to us all the time with packaging. They're like, oh, you guys do a lot of great packaging, but could you do a rebrand? It's like, yes, I think we could, Brooklyn Museum. No, I'm kidding. No, but so sometimes you have to prove, though, like even when you have 13 years and you're on the creative boom, top 25 list, you need to still prove that you can do things maybe outside of how people perceive you.

1:01:14Jen was just saying that to me. Yeah. Yes. because she was like she was like i want to make sure that people don't think we only do the style which is yeah jen doesn't think we have a style and everyone will be like you know the hutzpah style and then we'll be like oh okay you know it is but she was like you know we had been doing some of this other stuff that's like you know it's currently in our need but she's like wanting to build it out further and like we're wanting to hire 3d artists and do all this stuff that wasn't asked for because we really want to make sure it looks great we want to be able to get into those industries you know so it's like we're still having those discussions of like we can't get pigeonholed to this now.

1:01:46It's like constantly a pivot and making sure people know like what you're capable of so that you're in the discussions. Cause I'm just always want to make sure that our name is on the list of people when they want RFPs for like whatever big rebrand it's going to be. Like, I just want to be in the conversation, you know? So whatever way we kind of do that. Yeah. But I will say the way we've gotten on people's radar has been the most random things. Like with ILM, it was like the guy who worked in the press department, the marketing and press department, And like one of the, not even the lead guy, one of the other guys, his wife, he told his wife, oh, we might be doing a rebrand.

1:02:20And she had read our book. And so it's like, she told him, you should check out this studio. And then he told, you know, it's like, it wasn't even directly them knowing it was someone's and you just never know what's going to like, yeah, it's just like, you have no clue. And I imagine people reach out to you guys from all sorts of different places where you guys are very prolific. Like, do you guys find that you get a lot of work through your socials? Like, I feel like you guys have pretty big, big followings across Instagram, Twitter. It's kind of. Yeah, it's like interesting because it's like, it's definitely something that can be a time suck, but you can't think of it that way.

1:02:53It's like, I'm not going to go out there and get a banner ads, you know, it's like, so it's like, you just have to think about it. It's just like, you know, brand awareness building kind of, I think, you know, and I think people are nowadays, it's like, there's always the pendulum swing of like, first it was like, everyone has to be on social media. And then it's like, we got so overwhelmed with like, even the match, your mattress brand has a social media now that's asking you to follow. But I feel like now we're kind of coming back to it again of like, how do you do it? Right. But I feel like a lot of people are like, I don't want to waste time on making TikToks or reels.

1:03:21And I'm like, you're thinking about it wrong. Like it should just be fun and just be for brand awareness. And it's like, that does come back to something eventually. Like it just will. It's like you're, somebody will remember it. Somebody will see it. Somebody will connect with it. You know, if you're doing it kind of genuinely and like you know not begrudgingly but yeah social instagrams how we got yeah the work with red bull how we got work with 20th century fox which he then took us over when he went to disney shout out to nary revis that's how we got work with nike and so it's like it totally works and just going to conferences like yeah you guys are fun to hang with i'm sure that you just meet people out and it's like when people ask you what you do like i feel like everyone's usually so ashamed or like doesn't want to talk about work i'm always like we were in a studio it's what we do amazing work, you know, like, you know, like whoever it is.

1:04:09And I think you do have to kind of like, you know, it's like, you just never know who's going to lead to what. Yeah, no, I think, yeah, projects can come from anywhere. And I think you guys are very natural. It seems like online and sort of comfortable sort of like promoting your work and the things you guys do and you and you take pride in that and sharing it with other people. And I think that is another thing that I often like to talk to people I don't like about, you know, sort of being a shameless self-promoter at times where you're like, Hey, it sometimes maybe doesn't feel great to be posting Bureau for the 40th time.

1:04:39And it's just like, sure. You know what? Like, I'm sorry. Uh, I didn't, you know, this is not a moment that I'm going to just like post twice and be like, Oh, moving on to the next thing. I don't care anymore. It's like, no, it's I, I, I, I have to shamelessly, uh, just keep hammering home. But, um, no, I think it's, I think it's important because it does lead to work. And we've had many projects that have slid into our DMS. And I think some people that I've spoken to are like, you get projects from DMs? And I'm like, yeah, good ones. Isn't that wild? Oh, so I'm so fascinated. Yeah, I'm fascinated.

1:05:12How did you all get the last, like, do you know, are you close enough to know like how you got the last five jobs, like where they came from? Was it like a personal relationship or was it social or former client? Yeah, no, I think it's all generally people that found us either on Instagram or someone that I knew that knew someone that we worked with that recommended us. It's, I think you said it before, it's really all about relationships and people that, you know, and behind most of the brands are someone that we had either previously worked with or someone that we had, like I had some relationship, obviously I worked in-house at a beverage company for a very long time.

1:05:55And so there's a lot of people that network at other companies that are, you know, sort of doing things that often come through. But it's a mixed bag. And sometimes it's, yeah, it's like you said, it can come from some of the craziest places. And I think, yeah, I think it's sometimes you just don't know. And especially when you're starting, it's like, well. You really don't. You just have to try everything. Yeah. And you have to look at every opportunity as a potential opportunity to like unlock something else as the next thing. And I think, I don't know, that's such an important part of the beginning of the journey.

1:06:30And I think for you guys, 13 years in, us, six and a half, almost getting up there to seven, it's still something that we are doing to this day. And I think not every project is the same. And sometimes it's just like, do I want to do that? Sometimes the answer is just yes. And I've got to figure out a way to make it work. I'm actually looking. Yeah, we have a similar attitude that we do. is just like every project sounds like the most exciting project. Like that's our problem is we're just like, this sounds amazing. Like, we've already got ideas spinning. We've got the sketchbook out. Like we haven't even done a quote yet.

1:07:03You know, it's just like, and I think. I can get excited about almost anything. It is sort of a problem. Right, but it's also sort of a superpower. It's definitely a problem, but it's also kind of a superpower just to like, you know, show excitement and just treat the project that you're working on like the biggest project, because then you'll blow it out maybe further than somebody who thinks is just like working against hours or is just like, you know, whatever, you know, the heart's not in it. It's like, you can always tell when the heart's not in it. That's why people love studios like Smith and Dixon is like, they're so stoked about every project they post.

1:07:34Like you can feel it through like the screen, you know? So. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like back to the idea of like doing stuff for the love of the game. Right. Like I think I say this a lot. It's like, I, this is not just a job or not just a business for me. This is like what i love to do this is also a hobby every game is a blast yeah exactly i we are the anthony edwards graphic design yeah yeah we're just yeah we're just like the ant-man which uh on that netflix show which i highly recommend he is the most entertaining he's so fast i love him i always liked him but i didn't like i i could watch 12 more documentaries about anthony words oh wow he's one of those people where they were like he's the future face of the nba and i was like is he and And then the Olympics happen to Dallas.

1:08:17Like he is, he is, it's him or nobody. It's absolutely him. No, watch the documentary and they, yeah, you're like, oh my God. It's not only is it, it's absolutely him definitively. No questions asked. Like he's so charming. There's a scene where he's literally the birth of his first child is happening. And he's watching the second half of the Timberwolves game on his phone. And he's just like, he's just, he's just, it's such a like love of the game. He just loves, loves it. And yeah, I think you could sense that too when people love what they do and people want to work with people like that. And yeah, shout out to Smith and Diction number 19 on the 25 creative boom list.

1:08:55I'm just kidding. Not that I'm counting. Not that I'm counting. I think they were on there though. They were. They were for sure on there. That's so funny. But no, you guys, it's been really lovely to chat. I feel like we could just talk forever because we have so much in common. And I think just, yeah, no, so much that we see the world similarly. And I think it's so important for the designers out there that do want to start a studio. And I think that's something that we – I get asked a lot. They're like, how did you do this? Why do you – like, I want to start a studio. I want to quit my job in-house.

1:09:29And, you know, I hate my job too. You know, I was like, hold up. I didn't hate my job. I love it. Well-o, yeah. It's actually really hard for me to walk away from. But I think it's a you-can-do-it-too mentality that I think is important. It's actually really beautiful to see. And I think sometimes I think it's the most important thing you can do once you get to a chutzpah level. Oh, so rewarding. You got to pass it on and you got to help other people. So everything you guys do from books to teaching, all that is really inspiring to me. And thank you for doing it. Let us know when the Center Visual Identity course is coming.

1:10:14I want to take it. So it's on Skillshare. I highly recommend. Building Brands People Love. Also, Passive Income. I highly recommend. If anyone is interested in teaching online classes, it is an absolute thrill whether I get paid$2 or$20 each month to just have that show up in the bank account is like, what? I didn't do anything for this money. I did. I taught a class four years ago. It feels amazing. I know. It's like a trick. Yeah. It feels amazing. That's the most rewarding thing. And now I'm on the Smith & Dictionary. What if it's just Kevin and he's just doing it to make sure that you still feel loved?

1:10:46He's just like. Kevin was in. Kevin has a bit of a cameo in the Skillshare class. Do I really? Yeah. You're in the video. Remember I was like fake looking at a board and like. Oh my gosh. The B-roll. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, oh, yeah, taking notes. Actually, I think I shot some B-roll, too. Did you shoot some B-roll? I didn't get a credit. Sorry. Sorry. Got to call your union. Get a skizag on that. Have your lawyers reach out to my lawyers, Kevin. You don't want the smoke. You don't want the smoke. But thank you guys for doing that. I want some of that passive income. I'll buy one bacon, egg, and cheese a month.

1:11:24Do. Actually, I take that back immediately. uh chutzpah amy jen thank you guys uh where can the kids find you at home uh on the on the internets uh for those that maybe uh did not do not follow you uh chutzpahdesign.com or at chutzpahdesign on instagram and tiktok yeah amazing oh how is the tiktok going like what what are you guys i'm embarrassed i looked i looked back and re-watched and i regret it all but it was fun and you know what if you're not embarrassed are you even doing it right so it's embarrassing but but here's one thing i think about the tiktok right the tiktoks um guys i'm gonna go because i'm too old to be talking about the tiktoks but uh there are a lot of designers out there i won't name names but they are teaching people the wrong things i used one of the hacks the other day and i thought it was a hack and then i just i tried to actually like decompose it and expand it and it was like a nightmare and i will never use that hack again so yes yeah it's that and also like philosophy about design and branding where I'm like, you're actually misinforming people and that's bad.

1:12:28So I think it's great that you guys are out there. It's calling the competition though. I think it's helping us all out. Maybe it is. Maybe, yeah. Keep teaching these kids poorly. No, I'm kidding. No, I really am. I'm just kidding. No, thank you guys so much for all that you do. Anything else? Anything coming up that you guys want to promote or talk about that you guys are particularly excited about? Yeah, what's on the... Oh, yeah. Jeff, Bad Trifle. Everyone go listen to Bad Trifle. Oh, please don't. But yeah, we're working on a – we said it before it started filming, but we're working on a screenplay together because we're like, these Hallmark holiday movies are so bad.

1:13:06We want to try to pitch a movie to actually be a Hallmark. We have to be able to make a better one. I have one connect over there, and I'm like, maybe we can. At Hallmark? At Hallmark, yeah. Oh, hell yeah. My mom loves those movies. Oh, my gosh. I watch them every year, and I think they've got 100 of them. One has to be good. is it graphic design related? Is it? Oh, it should be a creative director. Yeah. I know. I think you have to stick to the, she has to be an interior designer and he has to be an architect. Those are required, required roles for your leads, but no, there's nothing new and exciting going on at Hitzbo right now.

1:13:40We've just wrapped everything up and we're just doing normal. Done for the year. Pack it in. It's a seasonal business. So, you know, no, but we're not, we're just going to be doing normal client work. So nothing to check out, but yeah. I'm starting to punt things to 2025. It feels great. You're like, by the time we get all of our meetings on the books and it's the holidays, we might as well just start in 2025 next year. We would love to do that project, but maybe we just start it next year. Maybe just right after the holidays. I started right before. There's so much going on. Nobody wants that.

1:14:15But thank you, guys. Let's be friends forever. Absolutely. See you at the next design conference. That's it. Yeah. anytime you're in New York come on by and vice versa we'll see you out there they're playing back get on all around the world we love that band get on to the beach they're playing back get on all around the world yeah I know this is so so damn to the beach We love that basketball They're playing basketball We love that basketball Now basketball is my favorite sport I like the way they dribble up and down the court I keep it so fresh on the microphone I like no interruption when the game is on I like slam dunk to take me to the root My favorite play is the alley-oop I like to pick and roll, I like to give and go When it's basketball, bow out, let's go Let's play basketball All around the world We love that basketball Yeah, to the beat, y 'all We're playing basketball We love that basketball Yeah, what's up?

1:15:40Yo, I got the rock in my hands Ain't no telling what I'm gonna do with it When I got possession, I'ma act a fool with it I might cross you up and fake one way Turn around and hit you with the MJ, fade away I'm throwing down passes like J.K. Taking cash to the rack and I'm dunking on them right. C-Mac, when I'm in the plane, I play with that Ronson style. I'm like Darius, cause I can shoot the knife. Don't too many players get offers like me. Back and forth, unlikely. Shake the checks off your Nikes. They almost had me in a suit at the drive, cause it looked like a free throw when I'd be shooting from half.

1:16:07The first step like Iverson, blow past you. He'd leave nothing but net, but I could go glass too. When I'm in the paint, the defense so shook. They don't know if I'ma put up a slow hook or dish up for no luck. See, my game consists of a whole lot of moves. You would think I learned from the Harlem Globetrotters JD gon' lead us to a ring Fab and Bow-Wise the only players that make cheerleaders wanna sing Put it up, put it up, put it up, put it up now Put it up, put it up, put it up now Put it up, put it up, put it up now

1:16:41Now, now, now, now, now, now Tell me, were you in the joint tonight, MJ? He scored 63 points when the Lakers won titles back to back. Didn't give nobody no kind of slack. When Vince Carter came, stuck his arm in the rim. Everybody went crazy in the whole damn gym. Dikembe Mutombo standing tall. Playing D with desire. It's basketball. Sing. All around the world. Put it up, put it up, put it up now We love the best game