Forth+Back on Front and Center: with Nikolos Killian and Tanner Woodbury

0:28Kevin, we have a special guest in the house. team with the appropriate practitioners from a creative network of diverse craves welcome founders and creative directors tanner woodbury and nick killian how's it going boys what up what up i want to know who's doing the collages hannah nice hannah's killing it oh my god the collages are electric yeah um they are yeah they're a huge part of the process you can imagine many many rounds on every collage yeah a lot of critiques a lot of to give a note oh yeah i mean i stopped giving notes but like it's always can we make this crazier or like not enough stuff that's my main piece of feedback so but then it's like then how does got it dialed now it's now it's now no now she's in her pocket she really is yeah she's in flow state with these she doesn't like so quick like yeah that's really that's crazy yeah I've made one and I think Kevin's made a handful of them.

1:29I fucking hate it. It's so hard. It's not that hard. It's just like they take me like probably two hours. Yeah. Okay. I'm not a former designer. I'm not on the sticks as much as I was. Yeah. Well, the question is, was Hannah critiquing your collage when you came out? She's like, this is not up to work. Oh, she said more stuff. More stuff. Yeah. More stuff. Because Hannah, are you here? Okay. How long does it take you to make the artwork now? Do you got it down? 45 minutes is pretty solid considering how complicated they are and how electric they are. It's funny. Guests last week were like, I want to see what my collage is going to be.

2:08I was like, okay. This is now a thing that people want. Absolutely. That's the history of the show. I love it. That's great. But you guys do side projects too. I always say like front center is like our main side hustle. We don't have any books. We don't have any like merch for sale. Like we don't have any conferences we do. We don't help the community in any way, shape or form. That's 90 % of what we do is helping the community. Yeah. Give them back. Yeah. That's what the fourth and back is. Now you got it. You take and you give. There you go. In the pocket already. Let's go. Can you guys reintroduce yourselves?

2:49I was busy as fuck when. when we first met. I'm Nick. And I'm Tanner. And we are fourth and back. Right on. That sounded like you were in a rap duo or so, too. Yeah. We're live in effect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Nick and Tanner. We were going to start spitting bars, but... You should. You should. Listen, we'll... If you got bars, we'll... Later, later. I don't want to go right away. Well, we've had a couple people rap on the podcast. It's always a good time, though. Really? Yeah. Who rapped? I feel like Debbie Millman did. Oh, that's true. You're right. You're right. You wouldn't think that Debbie Millman would come here and drop bars.

3:22What was she rapping about? It was mostly like 80s and 90s hip hop. She worked for Hot 97. That's good. I don't know if people know that about Debbie Millman. You just think of her as this legendary design. Yeah. I wouldn't have thought Debbie would be kind of that like boom bap world. You know, I was catching some clips and I was getting excited about that. I was like, wow, she really knows some deep cuts. Yeah, she's got lots of layers. That's the thing about Debbie. But yeah. Are you guys watching I Love LA? We are. Okay. Where do we stand? I love it. dude it's yeah it's funny it's like when you first when you're first watching it it really feels like someone was in a marketing room and there's like a whiteboard of like all the things we have to hit you know yeah and it's like even just the details of like you know they're wearing sort of like a bob baker's marionette hat like which is like deep cuts like if you know you know in la um but it's it is it's just it's been quite like guilty like it's it's really it it is enjoyable.

4:16I binged it pretty hard, actually. So much of it is pretty spot on. Kevin and I disagree. I really like it. He does not. Your microphone doesn't even work. Why you put me on blast? There we go. Listen, I just said one of us likes it and one of us doesn't, and I like it. Where does that leave you? Kevin, what's the beef, dude? I don't love LA, I guess. We're so New York. I like LA. We don't get the references. What is this, Erewhon? yeah yeah people have said it's like the girls for la which i haven't seen girls but i've hear good things about it considerably better i will say that i mean listen i love la is just starting i love a 30 minute uh hbo sunday night television like you know you know entourage is the yeah the gold standard yeah yeah television so so how do you where do you stand on entourage love it love it's uh yeah i've burned through entourage a handful of times it's it's that one where it's like you can just throw it on again and have it on in the background and see what Vinny and the boys are up to.

5:18Picture of LA in their time too. Yeah, I know the 2000s where they're like cruising around in the Hummer and like, yeah, all the fitted caps and stuff like that. Yeah, dude. Love. Yeah, it really holds up, except for the way they treat Winsor. Yeah, exactly. Those little details. Yeah, yeah. Just some of the like major plot points of the show. It's funny because you'll be watching it and then something will drop you like, oh, no. Can't do that. wrong

5:46I saw some interview with Rachel and she was like people comparing it to girls but like the truth is it's much more entourage it very much is yeah it feels that way and her pitch again I don't know we don't need to talk about I love LA but we have two LA people in the house but yeah she was like it's supposed to be entourage but instead of Vinny Chase being a movie star it's an internet star Yeah, right. Which is actually interesting to see. Like, I don't really know much about that world, but you see much of that world all the time. So it's like, okay. Yeah. And I imagine it's a terrible world to be a star in.

6:20Like, I think the Vinny Chase of it all. It's like, you're a movie star. You go to the red carpet. You're a heart drop. And it's like being an internet star is like rough. Yeah. Kind of a dark. It does feel like the difference is like when you watch Vinny, like he's kind of like not in the know. Like, it's very easy for him to check out. Like, his agent hits him and is like, this is happening. And he's like, oh, is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas with like the Instagram star, it's like they are plugged in and shit is firing. Yes. And they're constantly stressing about it and how to like put the fire out.

6:47And yeah. I think it's cool also because I don't think that that's ever been shown on TV. Right. But I like it. I like it. All right. Yeah. I mean, listen. Girls is, yeah. We're so New York. Yeah. I think that's the thing, you guys. LA. Where do you stand on the cold also? On the cold. Yeah. Like in New York. Yeah. Like right now it's cold. it's cold dude i you know it's funny we were just talking about today it's like i think every time we come out here there's nothing more fun than getting to like cosplay as a new yorker yeah i wear that puffer once a year yeah it's like you know it's like you've got like you have in your closet in la you have layers and you're like dude i want to i want to start layering yeah i got these jackets yep and you look ridiculous if you do that you tried in la and you're sweating yeah and so So when you come out here, it's like you get to kind of like put a fit on and get after it.

7:37But, you know, you're saying it's like after the fifth day of like, you're like, oh, just like I'm sick of the fits of blistering cold. You're like, I don't know. Yeah, it's it's tough out here. Yeah. Yeah. And I only have strong survive. That's the thing. But did you guys grow up in L.A.? Did you both grow up there? California. California. We're both like Cali boys. Okay. But yeah, Nick's from up north, like San Francisco area. Okay. And then I'm from down south, like San Diego. Okay, cool. And then we met in college. In the middle. Yeah, right in the middle. Okay, cool. And so where did you guys go to school?

8:09Where did you guys meet? Cal State, Long Beach. Long Beach State. Okay. Represent. I like how you guys really represent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think of you guys as Cali, like, guys. Yeah. Hopefully not, like, too much. But, like, you know. You guys went to school, studied design, I imagine? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We both, yeah, both went to Long Beach and then studied design. And then we both got into the BFA program at the same time. And like we'd be bopping around campus and like Nick and I were always like friends or like friendly, you know, but never like best buds. Had other peripheral classes.

8:43Beef. And then it was like – And then we squashed the beef. Okay. And then it's like we both got into the BFA. And I feel like too a lot of times in art school it's quite like an eclectic bunch. And you never really like know when you're going to find that person that you like fully align with or click with. And I feel like Nick was that person where like when we were in the same class, he felt like the person that I very much like felt connected to. It was like, oh, this this guy kind of he gets me. He gets it. Yeah. And so like we quickly clicked and and just started like working together on everything.

9:17Like every assignment we were like, you know, even if we were on our own, we'd still be like meeting up to work on it together. And then, you know, so it just there was like a there was like a natural kind of like magnetism in that way. And we just enjoyed. It was like second nature to start a studio from college. Once we got out, we were just like, yeah. Yeah, because we already working together. Yeah. And so then immediately you graduate college and like forth and back? Technically, yes. Really? Technically, yes. I know. It's kind of like a roundabout way, like a weird route that people don't really take.

9:48But we were just like, we loved working together right out of college. And we're just like, let's start the studio. So we did. We set it up as an entity. but worked in smaller studios for a handful of years until we kind of could build that up on the side but it was just 24 7 just yeah doing stuff late nights weekends and we like after college we moved we moved up to LA and we lived together too so like our our studio was in our apartment we had a little like attached sunroom where like we would go work our jobs at these we both worked at like boutiques small studios and then at night we'd come together and work on our own stuff um and yeah just did that for a really long time but it's funny uh when we first started the studio we were trying to kind of get something going while we were in college we're like let's get it rolling and and uh our first name ever was a coloring book oh fuck yeah yeah yeah and uh rapper and i remember like we were trying to take on clients in college and like i remember we had a meeting with someone we and that that was back in the day where like you would have to go in, sit in the room with the person, talk to the client.

10:51And I remember like scrambling and, and my mom helped us like print business cards. His mom's a graphic designer. Off of the printer. Yeah. Shout out to Camille. Yeah. Yeah. Shout outs to mom. Is she on the roster? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, yeah. Like at this point it's like, she's an honorable mention of the studio. Yeah. But it's funny. I remember like the night before she was helping us print out business cards and she had it like a paper cutter and was like cutting those business cards. Yeah. And the most ironic part is I remember like, I feel like we were pretty nervous going into the meeting.

11:19I left the business cards in the car. In the museum. But, you know, it's probably for the best. Who was the meeting with? I don't know how impressive. Dude, I don't even know. Someone you, I mean, at that point, we were like two kids in school. It was like a friend of a friend of a friend that was like willing to pay us a couple hundred dollars to do a thing. But back then, it felt like we were like pitching, you know, the biggest product of our lives. Now, on the TV show version of this, this was your big audition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you forgot the business cards that your mom had. Yeah. And the audition wasn't great, but, um, but yeah, that's, that's kind of like how, you know, we, it really started like extremely humble, you know, back in the day.

11:55Yeah. Now less humble. Yeah. Now it's still quite humble. Just gold chains and champagne. Extremely humble. Yeah. Yeah. So you guys were like, we're freelancing, but like we were ready to kind of put our heads together working in college and then just naturally it's evolves to kind of let's do projects together professionally, but also doing full-time jobs. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Because in college, we both decided like, let's do this. You know, I think we were huge fans of the Sagmeisters, the like Carlson Wilkers, Dress Code, like all these small studios that were like going out and doing really interesting things.

12:33And so I think when you're young, you're like, let's have like a t-shirt company where we'll make graphic, you know, like all these like big dreams and that sort of thing. And I think so like the idea of having our own company and having that like like creative freedom was really enticing. And so, yeah, we kind of got after it pretty quickly. But then the reality of like we have to pay rent, we have student loans, like all these things. And also we wanted to learn, too. I think like we weren't we didn't want to just go all in on like, let's, you know, let's just kind of like jump into the deep end.

13:06So we were working with studios. um and then it but it got to the point where like after a while where it's like things are coming in and you're you're trying to double time and it's just it's way too much and they were super supportive too of it all you know we'd have questions again being small studios that we were working with it was like hey how would you you know talk to this client how would you how would a proposal go how would this go you can kind of see them you're kind of on that ground floor you're kind of directly connected to that as you of course know so yeah it was great i think like our studio is a little unique in that way where it's it's not like we were like deep into our careers and then we're like let's team up and create our own studios like we were fresh out of college so every client we got was truly like scrappy and and you know small chips in the beginning and then it's just like slowly grown over the years yeah 2018 we went full-time with it so that's kind of like the real year that we say but yeah before that it was kind of just yeah Side hustle.

14:01Working with other stuff. Yeah. But it was always under the. Forth and back. Yeah. You guys together as a group. Yes. Yeah. Was the name Coloring Book holding you back? No. That was like maybe like. I don't think that was ever legitimately. No. It was. It was never. Never. Yeah. It's a good name. It was never the legal. It wasn't for Chance the Rapper. I'm glad it's not us. You know what's funny is like. That was before that happened. Yeah. Like later on that came in. You're like. Oh man. Yeah. It could have been us. Yeah. Yeah. I think what really did it is like we were we were like rocking with that for a second and and then we like found out that there was like you know you do like two seconds of google searching you're like oh there is a design studio in Texas called coloring book and at that point it was like you know let's start over what inspired fourth and back great question it's a good question it's funny because for a long time we like didn't really like I feel like people would answer this and we'd be like yeah that's a that's a secret you know but or like we would give the like more of a fake answer to it yeah hell yeah really thought about no you need a fake answer yeah if you don't have a real one but sometimes a fake one's better than a real one that was at the point where like nick and i were like we're starting a studio we obviously need a name like let's so i there was a night where like let's bring we had had several nights of brainstorming like trying to come up with a name and i i think too like i always names are so tough where it's like a lot of times like you come up with something and you're like i either love this or this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard of and only time will tell on it too yeah and it was just getting to that point and and and where we hadn't really landed on anything and um it was like at one night where like we always have kind of like music going on in the background and like there was a uh this was also like 2014 there was like a slum village song oh hell yeah called forth and back going on and like the the chorus is like rock to the rhythm forth and back and they kind of like repeated and we're just like and that's nice there was a moment where we kind of like it kind of stuck like we of looked at each other of like i think there's something to this yeah yeah and um and i think the reason it stuck too is because and i think what we really love about is like the expression back and forth like you know i think it's like a great it speaks to communication the give and take yeah and i think dialogue you know the two like like sort of our process but also like our process with the client there's like a balance to it i think it also is sort of like an expression you've heard a million times but but flipped and i think like there was something that was like that we really loved where it's like something that feels kind of classic and timeless but seen from a different perspective like it also works backwards as well you know like so there was something that just kind of clicked and then there's they're like all right i think yeah that's it so which which of you is fourth i know we get that a lot yeah i think it's great you know i actually i actually thank you guys thank you thank you i think i have an answer to that oh yeah yeah yeah I think I'm excited.

16:42Yeah. We actually didn't really like talk about this. Nick is a little bit more like future coded, you know, in like fourth sci-fi and like all this stuff. And it's like, I love that too, but I think I'm a little bit more like past coded in some of my soul. Nice. So you guys are both the founders and both the creative directors. How does that work? Do you guys arm wrestle? We don't know any other way. So it's like, I don't really know how much like perspective we have on it, but it's, it, it, it has worked really well for us. I don't know how well it would work for other people or anything like that.

17:14But, um, it's one of those things where when we bring on and build bigger teams and things like that, we have to take a moment because it's like, it's almost like telekinesis, like the way we're speaking and like just things that he's picking up on that I'm saying. And it's like, so we have to kind of like slow things down and like get into it. Cause like, there's just, we've just been together so long that it just kind of clicks and works. But I feel like there's like a comfortability there, too, as well, where it's like I genuinely feel like when when we put work out, it's especially when you come up with an idea, there's nothing lonelier than like coming up with something that could be like great or it could be like too far or, you know, it's it's it's so comforting in the creative process to have someone that you're so close with to give you a genuine reaction to that.

17:55Yeah. And be like, this is great. Or give you the hard kind of like, I don't know, you know, like I think maybe we need to try something else. And I think that's what I think works really well for us is like, we always are there as a sounding board, you know, and sometimes it's a little bit more of a here or over there, but we, it always funnels through both of us. And I know that like, if we both get to that place where we're both on the same page, then we know that it's like a good idea. Yeah. And you guys used to live together. So you guys were like, you know each other incredibly well and so it's nice to like yeah it's like you guys are one person i imagine at some point you guys still live together yeah i was gonna say it kind of feels that way because we work together and like constantly but yeah um we live close by but yeah we live like five minutes down the road from each other now but i i mean it is interesting because like nick and i are best buds i've known him since i was 17 35 now and like you know we we we do work together we hang out together like i was the best man at his wedding and it'll be the same for mine do you ever get time apart do you yeah definitely definitely way more nowadays in the early days there was no such like we were hitting double dates together we were hitting the gym together we were like we'd like watch mad men together then go to bed and then wake up have coffee together yeah that's a strong unit yeah yeah yeah but we have like had some healthy like you know We both live with other people now.

19:20That's good. That's good. I imagine that's probably good for the work. Our significant others have helped us with that. Do they ever get jealous? In the early days, we've struggled with that. Girlfriends that we both were seeing at the time had a really hard time with how much time we'd spend together. There was inside jokes and they'd kind of roll their eyes. Like, ha ha, so funny. Yeah, we'd make some joke about typography and they just, you know, get furious. They don't get it. But it's much better, much healthier now. Yeah. Yeah. The couples therapist help? Yeah, right. Because I always, again, I'm a solo guy.

19:58And so I think I am jealous of you guys. You know, I love that sort of camaraderie. I imagine that just like you got someone, they got your back. You can everything you need to talk something out with. You know, someone that's like, again, sees things the way you do. Do you guys ever disagree on things? All the time. Yeah. all the time yeah i think um that's the best part you know is really hearing the other side with these kind of things but um again like there's been so much trust in years you know that so it's like you can really hear that other side and i get really excited when he has an opposing view because it's just like let's talk about this let's and it usually always gets to a better place you know so it's like i want it's like i want more of that always so and i think people really good and really free and open about doing that stuff yeah and it's like it's never easy yeah like when you've been wait what it's not easy like you know it's like when you've been working on something and you think it's like i have i have cracked it and then the other in the other and it's not that you're mad at the other person it's just that you're mad that maybe it's not as good as you thought and i think that's the hardest thing to swallow but i think we both have such a built up like respect for one another where it's like if they're not if they're not seeing it then i then maybe i need to relook at it a little bit okay but i think the other thing that we've really like embraced as well is it's like i think we've gotten to a place too where like if one person is like i hear you but like i i really do think there's something here then we've we've gotten really good at being like all right well let's let's give it a second let's like let's sleep on it and i i've kind of been amazed at like how often like the next day with fresh eyes the other person will be like dude you know what i think i think it actually is is great you know and you just need a second to like because you know you each have a vision of what it's going to be in your head yeah i was going to say isn't it the worst of like when someone's like yeah that's not good you're like no i'm right this is great and then the next day you're like yeah it's a good ego check they're right yeah i didn't see it because i was lost in it i thought it was really good but you know that's the thing is right you know you are lost when you're in Yeah.

22:01Yeah. Especially when you look back on something like a couple of years later, then you're like, Oh my God, that was terrible. Like I can't believe I was trying to convince other people that that was good. And then luckily I have eight people here that tell me my work is terrible. So we got to keep them on. Yeah. Yeah. If they ever told me anything was good, I'd be like, are you guys working with me? You know? Like, Oh yeah. But you guys both design still to stay. So make stuff. Yeah. Obviously the work is incredible. The reason that I found out about you guys was, was spiral. I think that's the interesting thing I saw your work.

22:32So you want to talk about like sort of the spiral sort of project and where that came from? Yeah. Another COVID project. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And speaks to like just personal studio projects, self-initiate stuff too. Yeah. I think so. We should give shout outs to our boy, Sean Gisematari. Yes. Sean, Sean. Yeah. Wherever you are. At the time was, so another friend of ours, another roommate of ours. We actually had three of us living in one house at one point. He got cut from the band? He's off to bigger and better things. He's at Jordan right now. Right on. But yeah, so he kind of had the vision for the mag or like for the idea because he also was another sports guy.

23:14It's like we did have this kind of little pocket of creatives that also loved sports. And I feel like that can be somewhat rare in the creative world. That's why genuinely I was attracted to your work. I was like, one of us, you know? Two of us. It can be slightly embarrassing to know too much about sports at times around certain designers, and I think you can be labeled as that Chad person. And JT. She got lean in. Kevin and I, this show, genuinely, we'll start sometimes talking about just sports and the Bengals or something going on, and then there'll be one person always in the comments will be like, yeah, we don't give a fuck about your bets or your fantasy or whatever.

23:55and I'm like, oh yeah, these are graphic designers. Yeah. Yeah, we've cut that. Yeah, we don't do it. We don't include it. We just include it. People are just like, oh, what? Put it in there. And I think like we always felt that and I think the other thing too is like you look at a lot of sports culture and it's so kind of like meat-headed and like masculine and like dudes like crushing beers on their head and like stuff like that. And also it's like a lot of the like the merch, like the stuff around it's like poorly designed and and i think but at the same time there is an element especially like in stuff from the past and there are certain things that are incredible um that i think we really resonate towards and thought were like worth highlighting and so sean sean sort of like wanted to get this mag going um and you know was talking about with us and we thought it was a great idea and we and it really resonated with us of like this is sort of like an untapped area little pocket so and he's just he's a big football fan like soccer fan in general and he saw a lot of you know magazines brands that were kind of curating a artful take on that sport so he's like what where is that for like american football yeah no it's a great point like american football is by far the most popular sport here in america and yeah there isn't that tasteful.

25:17I think in basketball, you see a lot of it. I would say more often than not when there's an intersection of sports and design. I've talked about this before because I'm older than you guys a little bit. I remember there were so few of us, graphic designers that also liked sports. I got set up with another designer because he was like, you guys are both in New York. You guys both like basketball. You guys should hang out. His name is Darren Crescenzi. We're very close friends still to this day he's a great designer love it but it's like that's how few people there were that yeah right they would i was set up on a date like to meet him because we both were the only two here in new york city you know so i think that stuff it's like it's it's come a long way but also i do think a lot of it is centered around basketball still maybe maybe uh sort of soccer or football but not american football like nfl it still feels very like yeah trad american yeah culture definitely yeah and i think too it's like within basketball a lot of these people's personalities are way more on display there's less people you can see their faces constantly there's a lot more self-expression with football it's it's it's way more concealed you're not really seeing these people constantly there's there's a lot the teams are bigger and that sort of thing it's i think it's a lot more like locked down and so it was it was like a really great challenge to try to like accentuate those things that make American football so interesting and show show like to the public the things that we that resonated with us and hopefully like resonate with them as well and so that was the first episode was spiral was just like American highlighting American football that was it was like tribalism I think yeah each one had like a theme okay you kind of like focusing on on a particular thing yeah was the goal to get work in sports because I I guess was the were you guys doing any work in the space I'm glad I just circling back to that.

27:09Yeah. Like the kind of like we were all again, Sean's now at Jordan. Yeah. Since we put out two issues, we've been working with Nike and it's kind of like that was the goal of Spiral was to get in front of these sports brands, these sports clients and kind of be like, hey, look what we can do in this space. So it kind of served its exact purpose. Yeah. That was like the main goal. Yeah. Yeah. I love when our show can actually be informative and helpful for people. It's not something we do often. Yeah. But like it's true. Like if you want to work in something and you don't get the project, you don't have the project to make the project.

27:41We have been big advocates of that. Yeah, we've kind of like lived by that, you know, especially just being young kids early on in the studio. You don't have much of a portfolio. So you're kind of left to make a lot of these projects initially. We didn't have clients. Just to show people that you're capable of pulling something like this off, you know. And so, yeah, I think like that kind of caught the attention of Nike. and then and it wasn't like sports or our be-all end-all but like we it was something we wanted to get more into and so it really just yeah it was like this will be a really fun project and hopefully we can kind of catch a little attention at the same time sick what was the first project from nike that came to you guys it was nike football really yeah look at that that's like a one-to-one like that's a perfect you know slam dunk uh we've worked on that too thank you kevin uh listen uh my brain is my purpose here thank you there we go uh i'm gonna go with touchdown no but like you were like hey we could do some more we should do something in football and then all of a sudden nike football is like right hey i didn't even know nike football existed until i saw the work that you guys did yeah i i think like i mean i didn't really know either i think that was the exciting part it was like yeah i think they really wanted to make nike football a little bit more apparent and more well known and stuff yeah it was it was like a really fun we've done like two football season campaigns with them, Super Bowl stuff.

29:03It's been incredible. Do they have Nike football athletes? You know, like in basketball, of course, you get your signature athletes. They do. Yeah, totally. I don't know who they are. I don't know why that is such a thing. I don't know what sneaker company Joe Burrow is signed to. Allo. Allo. Yeah. He's been cutting all the logos off the Nike. I've heard they make pretty fire cleats. Oh, yeah. He's just been de-branding the Jordan cleats, which actually look pretty fire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always funny when athletes do that because I'm like, you know, we know that you're still wearing Nikes, right?

29:34You still clearly prefer to wear Nike. Yeah, no, but they definitely do have Nike athletes. And like part of the campaign is like – You can only use those athletes, of course. You know, choosing like art-directed photos to work within the campaign and that sort of thing. And it'd be funny because there would be a list of these athletes that are going to be integrated into the campaign. But then like at the last second, it's like, oh, shit, we can't use Travis Kelsey because he's still negotiating his contract. We actually need to use this person. And so it's a bit of a scramble. But yeah, definitely, definitely a lot of Nike athletes on the roster.

30:09Do you guys sort of so as far as the like the work as over the years, do you think it has skewed more sports or do you guys sort of like how do you kind of what do you? What do you guys do the most of? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's most sports. I think there's only been actually a handful of sports related projects. I think it's branding at its most core. Yep. It's funny. We're out in LA and we actually do quite a bit of film production branding for film production studios. We have done, you know, most of the names under the sun and really enjoy working with those clients. Their work's great at the end of the day.

30:47Their work makes our work look better. So it's just, it's a fun time. They're creatives. We're creatives. So, yeah. But yeah, it's like, we do have a bit of a wide net. I think like, I think what happens to us a lot, and I'm sure that you guys know, is that you put out one project and then like other people see it and they're like, well, that, maybe I want that, you know? And so I think like it comes in huge waves where it's like, well, all of a sudden we'll put out like sort of something that's really like. Which is why those personal projects work, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think like that's happened a bit with sports where like when a lot of that sports stuff was happening, we were getting a ton of sports.

31:19projects and then it's then it's the same with production company you know stuff like that so yeah um yeah it kind of comes in waves you know and i think like whenever we want to like try out a new wave we'll like do a passion project and be like just so you know we can like do this too yeah maybe like bring something in yeah now it's so smart i mean obviously this this happens to us all the time literally anytime we launch a project it's like we have a non-alcoholic beer product like we just did this one right really we put it out last week right why do you think we want to do another one yeah but that is just kind of how things go where people are yeah um yeah they see something they see you could do it really well and it's like i also have one of those and you're like well that's probably the last project i want right but it's super flattering to you like oh cool yeah like no it's not flattering to me no no it's it's great but it's it is fun to like again i think uh most designers certainly i can relate to this feeling of like wanting to continue to find new things i think it's funny or not funny but it's like it's it's a really smart thing to just be like well we're just we'll always just take on a passion project or push the project, passion projects to different spaces in the hopes of getting to different spaces.

32:24So after Spiral, you guys do another book or is that sort of when this is the New York dreams of New York? Oh, that was early on. That was early. That was before. Okay. So I have my timeline. And that was us living in the same home studio. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And that really was a result of like us being early on as a studio and just it's quiet. You know, I think like you're, we were doing all that we could to bring in projects, but at a certain point, like you kind of have to wait till something lands in your inbox, you know? And so we've always had the outlook of like, well, if there isn't any client work happening right now, then like, let's, let's make it, let's stay busy.

33:00Like let's, let's put something out into the world. And, and we kind of, we just had that idea. I think we, there's this first image. One, we love New York. You know, we try to get out here at least once, twice, three times a year. And I think Tanner came across an image on just Google Earth, right, of these, like, this row of skater kids just, like, you know, throwing their hands up, boards in the air, putting shirts over their heads in front of the Google car as it goes by. And we're like, that isn't a sick scene. We actually have it framed in our studio right now. But we're like, if that's out there, like, what else is out there?