Pentagram Ain’t Nuthing ta F’ Wit: with Emily Oberman

23:43It's like the Pope, you know, kind of thing. It's very much like the Pope.

23:46Emily Oberman:And he's like, it's time for a new opening. And then Emily gets on the phone and it's off to the races, I imagine. I saw the brief, which is the party you wish you were at, the cast you feel like you know, the greatest city in the world. That is always the brief. And then there's one other thing that Jim said to us that I've always tried to remember, which is the show should be funny. The open should not. Brilliant. So in general, we make the opens as if they were just like a glamorous, a glamorous intro to the show. Yeah. There's no jokey stuff in it. Serious business. It is. Yeah. And the first one was Saturday Night Live.

24:31That was the Saturday Night Live. Yeah, just put it all together. And I love that. It's just such a simple, brilliant idea. It's like, it's one word. You say it all at the same time, Saturday Night Live. It's Saturday Night Live. Yeah, exactly. And you're off to the races. How hard or difficult was that first one to sort of... I don't remember. Fair. Fair enough. I don't... It seems like it wasn't hard at all because the next one was so hard. Okay, yeah. And so it seems like it was not hard. It was just... And it's still... I have learned in the past couple of years that that logo that we did is still Warren's favorite.

25:08The first one. Or your first one. Or one of his, our first one is at least one of his top. I saw that he sell a t-shirt now that has all the logos. What? I need to send you a link. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They sell like Abercrombie or something. It's like, I don't know why. I saw it online. Well, we did an animation for the 50th anniversary that's all the, like where you go through all the logos. Oh, cool. All at once. And like even when we were working on the 50th anniversary, we sort of wanted to do bumpers that were like, here's one of the old logos with the new 50 on it. But Lorne was very much like, no, this is not a nostalgic trip.

25:42We're still looking forward. This is present day, so let's not get too hung up on the past. How involved is he in the process of making these sort of openings? Here's what I like to say about Lorne, who I refer to as Lorne, even though I've been doing, I've been working with Saturday Night Live, whether through Number 17 or through Pentagram, for 30 years. That's insane. And we redid the logo for Broadway Video. We've done the logo for SNL Studios, which is the film production company. We've done the logo for Late Night with Jimmy Fallon, The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, 30 Rock, Kimmy Schmidt, The Four Seasons Now.

26:23One of my favorites, the Kimmy Schmidt one. Girls 5 Eva, all of this stuff. Fuck yeah, it's so good. Lorne Michaels, who I revere. Like, I think he's a straight-up genius. he would not know me if he fell over me. That's incredible. How is that even possible? He's a busy guy. What can I say? I've met him a bunch of times, but all the executive producers know who I am. And again, I trust his instinct. There have been a few times where he've said stuff like that directly to me. Oh, I did the SNL book and Mary Ellen's book also. Yes. So you have a lot of experience. 30 years, that's the, I mean, I can't think of other projects.

27:05I know, Paula, and the public theater. But outside of those two, are there any graphic designers that have ever worked on a project for as long as you two? Probably. I think Michael Beirut has some, like maybe a 30-year. Do they all work at Pentagram? Yes.

27:21Emily Oberman:Yes, they all. That's the thing. You have to have a thing long enough. Yes. I don't know off the top of my head. But it's a huge achievement to do something for that long and to do it so well. I love the story of the second one, which is Saturday Night Live. And it's sort of, I also like how they come from how they're said. Well, and then, well, that was all based on Don Pardo, who was the original voice of SNL. And he had such a distinctive voice. That one was hard. I love that story also because it went live on the first episode with an opening. and then Lauren saw it, didn't like it, and then changed it in week two?

28:06Had us changed. I got a call Sunday morning after the first logo and it was Jim saying like, Lauren doesn't like the logo. And I was like, oh, well, I guess we'll fix that next year. Like, ah, this is SNL. She was like, we're going to fix this before Saturday. Was it fixed by the following Saturday? It was different by the following Saturday. And, you know, again, Bonnie and I and the designers who were at number 17 at the time worked. And we changed it, you know, keeping the same idea. And that got approval and went on the show. And then Sunday morning. Didn't like it again. Still didn't like it.

28:49Still wasn't right. Still wasn't right. It wasn't. It wasn't because we didn't do anything drastically different. Like the typefaces stayed in the same world. And so what we finally ended up doing was that one that was all like a square. And the thing that is that Saturday night and live each have fewer and fewer letters. So you could still do the thing of it getting bigger and being onomatopoeic while still keeping it a nice tidy block. And again, I'm just going to say he was right. You know, sometimes clients hate to give them this much credit, but like they typically are right. They do tend to know and are, you know, again, like I.

29:25He knows. I love to say to a client, like my favorite kind of client is a client who knows who they are and can talk to you about it because then you're not like a client who says like, I don't know, that's your job. Those are the hardest. Those are the hardest. Yeah. You're like, oh, I have to just completely make it up and go off of my own instincts and you're not going to give me anything. Right. But a client who comes to you and says, this is who I am. This is what I like. This is what we need. This is blah, blah, blah. And it all comes out in the strategy work.

29:53Emily Oberman:Yeah. But those are better clients than the clients who are just like, yeah, you figure it out. Yeah. And I mean, it's been pretty well documented in at least like six documentaries and multiple movies that Lauren is a genius. Yes. I'm sorry if I'm saying the obvious, but no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, I just do you watch all that stuff? Are you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Me too. I eat it all up. I'm like, give me more of these recreations. I think they have another one that just came out. There's one called Lorne, which I haven't seen yet, which I think. But I'm in. I'm in. When did you, I guess for the first ones, you were mostly working on the title, but then title cards for each of the sort of castmates.

30:32All the cast members. And that's when we started doing something. We started doing a little bit more than just putting their name. Like it would move in a certain way or we would add color to the edit. So we started to get more involved. And the very first one we did was shot in a nightclub in one night. and we had the whole cast there and we had Patrick McBullen. And at this point, when I say we, we were very much there in support of what Jim and the film unit team were doing. But we all collaborated and worked together and we got to be at the club at the night and it was fun. And then that's where we started adding stuff that made it a little more, made the typography hold the whole thing together in a way, like be a through line, be a thread that was a little bit more than just informational.

31:25And so I think that that's what we started to add to it. And then over the years, Jim started to ask us to be more involved in conceptualizing it. And we also always, I just have to say, this is so not something that I certainly do alone and certainly when we started it was me and bonnie with the film unit and then it eventually he brought in mary ellen matthews and then mary ellen and i started collaborating but we also always work with a director sure from the show um we worked with reese thomas who then went on to create documentary now um and the past few years we've been working with a man named mike diva who is another like incredible talent i love the opening now oh my god it's so good are you involved in sort of like yeah like how each castmate kind of gets a moment like a new york kind of thing is that part of so yeah that is something that over the years there have been many opens that mary ellen and i have sort of conceived of together and then we decide we talk about shot lists and she's what's amazing is the thing that i have been able to do very very well is surround myself with geniuses with incredibly creative people you know besides lauren my team team whoever the designers are who like the team at pentagram who's been working on the snl open for the past i don't know eight years all amazing passionate talents and then at snl there's mary ellen and there's whichever director we're working with this past one mike diva like being part of this ensemble of really really smart people who know their jobs really really well and are always thinking, what can I do better?

33:09What can I, is this right? Yeah. Like that's. That's like Kevin and I. Exactly. Very similar. That's the beauty of it. Sure. It's not, I never, I couldn't possibly. Yeah. Do it alone. Of course. It's not even that I even think that I'm doing it alone. Yeah. I am part of a tightly knit machine or a tightly wound machine. And now it's 50 years in the making and that machine and it's, yeah. They are. I haven't been doing it for 50 years. Not that old. Yeah, but I always think about what my New York moment would be if I was on the cast in the intro. You know how Sarah Sherman's driving the bus or Colin Jost is in the window display.

33:51I would like to be in a bodega. That's what I've decided, that I would want to be around all the snacks and walking up the bodega with a cat or something. What would yours be? That's the question. Oh, God. I've never even thought about that. Really? Yeah. I never once had that thought. I think about it every single time I watch the show. Oh my God. Because I love how they all get that moment and they're like, you know, Marcelo's like hopping over the banister and it's like, it gives a little bit of their personality. Well, and also this past year was a very intricate, you know, crazy. And everything had to lead into one thing.

34:27So Marcelo is jumping off over a fire escape in Chinatown, which is where Heidi was shot in Chinatown, but the Chinatown set was fake. on the stage at Studio 8H. So it was very, and that, I just have to say, was all Mike planning that out and Mary Ellen even more so than me. I was sort of there going like, great. We're going to make type that looks like neon in the background. Like it just really, really amazing work. I don't know where would I, I might want to be by Cooper Union in the East Village somewhere. That makes sense. I mean, I went to Cooper. There's the cube thing, which is a little touristy, but I think that would be East Village would be my area.

35:15That makes sense. I'm trying to think if anyone was ever in a bodega, I'm sure. I'm sure it happened at some point. I'm picturing Fred Armisen in the record store, which isn't the same.

35:22Emily Oberman:Yeah, that's a little different. I was also thinking maybe I'd be at Joe's Pizza, you know, just like having a slice of something iconic like that. There have been some pizza moments. That's a little cliche, yeah. Yeah. No, it's not a cliche. For me, for me. I'm trying to go for something a little bit more. No, I don't think there's anything. I think everything works in that context in the SNL, depending on how it's shot, depending on, you know, it being some indeterminate moment in the middle of the night makes everything. I love that Bowen's bigger than the city, right? Like that's like it just.

35:53He's King Kong. Yeah, he's King Kong. It's like a surreal twist. And yeah, it's such a fun project. I mean, what a dream. And obviously it's so it's so. Yeah. Every week you watch it and you're like, there it is. It's my work. I feel like this one's been kind of the same. For how long has it been? No. No, 50th. 50th anniversary. So this is only its second year. Okay. Okay. So the 50th was a journey, I imagine, because that was a big moment and a big show. So that one changed to be the current one. That was different than the one with the funky N, right? Yes. God, you're just, I'm going to leave.

36:30You're going to just tell, you're just going to. I love the one with the funky N. Me too. That little N. People didn't like the funky N, though. People didn't like the little N. They were like, why is there a lowercase N for night? And I was like, because that's what they did in the beginning? Yeah. This is an homage to that? Nobody complained then? Yeah. There was a lot of debate after. I thought maybe the little N was going to be a Sunday morning call. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're probably like, ooh, the internet's not loving this N. Lauren's going to change this. And there was talk. There was talk.

37:00There was talk about, like, should we change it? and then everyone decided no. You know what I also love about Saturday Night Live is the interstitials. They're doing a lot of really fun stuff with the moments in between the show with type and like props from the scenes. That only started a few years ago, but they started, I guess, when I think they got a 3D printer. Yeah. And they could print the logo out and put it in different locations. And I just, I love that. That's fully them. Yeah, no, that's a really beautiful thing that's happening. I agree with you. It's pretty recent. Yeah. But every time they do it, I'm like, that's so great.

37:35I know, me too. I'm like such a, like, they did things when, there was one year where we shot the entire thing inside the Chelsea Hotel, and we had to make for the prop department a, like, thing that you hang on the door that said SNL. And every time, and, like, I took one home. Like, I love crap like that. Who's your favorite cast member of the moment?

37:54Emily Oberman:Oh, no, no. Can't do it? No. Okay, that's fine. Oh, probably Ashley. Ashley Pathea, I agree. she's having a great she's having a great she's breakout she feels like and I do really enjoy the entire cast and the whole the way the whole and I love Marcel yeah no they're all great it's a great cast right now it will always be criticized Chloe yeah people love to hate on SNL and like listen it's hit or miss some weeks you're like that wasn't the best and some weeks it's great and it's always entertaining who's perfect all the time that's just show business that's show business I agree and back off i i don't really have a favorite but ashley is she she feels like she's really acting she's really i just said i don't have a favorite and then i named a name yeah it's not a competition but i do like when stars emerge and you see them like coming out of their shell a little bit like jane wickline this season i'm like oh she's she's more she's doing more like they're putting into her see i love her too i love jane i love her deadpan like Like I just - It's a great show.

38:58But I will also say that I also judge people on whether they're a good guest. Interesting. Like the hosts. The hosts. Yeah. Some people, yeah, aren't great hosts. And they, yeah, it's funny. I think it's interesting. Some people can't do comedy. And then some people you're like, whoa, like Jon Hamm was great. Jon Hamm is almost a cast member at this point. At this point, yeah. You know who I really got a new respect for? Glenn Powell. It was someone that I didn't really get or like, and I was kind of like, why is everyone like this guy pushing on me? And then he was great on SNL as a host, and I was like, I'm in, Glenn.

39:36Well done. Yeah, and actually, so weird, Glenn's, the pre-show commercial that they always do. Yes. And his was a parody of that Fat Boy Slim song with the video with Christopher Walken. Yes. a weapon of choice maybe. Yes. And I loved that so much that I had such a good feeling going into the episode. Yeah. And it was great. And so sometimes people can win me over that I don't know that I would like. Or I find out about people. Sometimes I'm like, I have no idea who this host is, but Nate Bergazzi or something. You're like, oh my God. Nate Bergazzi owes his whole career to that one sketch. Yeah.

40:25I mean, he's a funny guy. Yeah, like making up America, right? That was the sketch. Yeah, great. Really, really great. And now you're working with Bowen Yang on the Culture Awards. Can we talk about that? Sure. Okay. What's that like? Bowen Yang was a former graphic designer. I know. And there are a few things that are amazing about that. One, I think that that's why when we would shoot the open and I go to the shoots, though I'm sort of there just to say like,

40:54Emily Oberman:do you want to change the thing? Like I am not. It's cool that you're there. Yeah, no. And I love going and I go to all of them and it's wonderful. But Bowen like paid attention to things that I, and it was because he knew who I was and he knew what Pentagram was because he had this graphic design background. And he posted even after the open, like Pentagram did an amazing job. and I think I DM'd him and that no no I know what it was I went up to him at one of the parties after the show and introduced myself okay and he was so kind and so he was like oh my god it's so great to meet you he was just so genuine and awesome and you know there was like we made a like connection and I said if you ever need anything you know I'm your man yeah and we pinky promised oh that's so in that moment yeah nothing stronger than a pinky promise nothing no And now we're doing the culture awards and Matt and Bowen both are smart, funny, talented, genuine, kind, thoughtful, deep thinkers, hilariously funny, amazing people to work with.

42:12And I'm one of those people who like if a client or a person is nice, I will do so much more for them than if someone is condescending or bitchy or whatever or like. it's really amazing how just gratitude and a little bit of kindness and appreciation on a design project goes such a long way with everyone working on it. Cause you have to be critical of the work, you know, as client, uh, I was a client for a long time. So you, uh, yeah, there's a way to do it that inspires and motivates and makes people want to make great things for you. and there's a way to kill that so quickly so hard so hard and and they have been and the whole team yeah that works on it uh the producer jane munn like everyone is yeah wonderful and and there because they really believe in what matt and bowen are doing because they love las culturistas because it's kind of a moment, but everyone is considerate and there and like going to the like, you know, the tech days beforehand was delightful.

43:32Yeah. And not stressful, even though there were changes being made and stuff was happening, but because everyone had a great respect for each other, it made the project so much better. And I will say, like my father, because Bowen understands graphic design,

43:48Emily Oberman:when we present stuff he's able to say like you know i was thinking that maybe the if the type did a little bit of this and it's another one of those situations where it's like yep yeah he's right let's tweak this a little but he's able to say like it's never first of all it's never nasty but second of all it always comes from a real place of knowledge um you can tell they're having fun with this and they are that's the whole thing it's like it's it's a fake award show where they give out the best awards in any award show that i've ever seen and it just feels like they're just like having a blast doing it like they did abracadabra like a full like opening lady gaga and you're like holy shit these guys can sing and dance it's like what the fuck they're so talented i was so blown away by their pipes incredible like their singing ability.

44:42Yeah, no, I same. I got to host Young Guns for the one club recently and I was like, hey, I want to do like a you know, I did it with Veronica Fuerte of Hey Studio and I was like, I want to be like Tina Fey and Amy Poehler. We're going to do bits and then I was like, and it was fun. It was a really fun night but I realized I don't have that bag of tricks like they do. They could sing. They could do anything. I'm like, okay, we're just going to have to deliver jokes pretty deadpan And that's all I got. So watching them, you're like, oh, that's why they're giant stars of Scream. Yes. And why the sky is the limit for both of them.

45:22They could literally do anything. I think they both are going to do so much more than we realize right at this moment. Multi-hyphenate geniuses. And I love Las Colterias and the Culture Awards. It's great that's on TV. Are you doing the broadcast sort of everything? Mm-hmm. Cool. And that's coming out soon, right? That's like relatively soon. Well, they're shooting it. So it's not live. Yes. So we shoot it. We're going to shoot it at the end of May. Yes. And then I think it airs in July. Yeah. But it's on like Peacock. It's on Peacock and Bravo. Yeah. Which is like a big deal. Because I remember they did it for years where it was like fans and it was in Radio City Musical or it was in MSG or somewhere, whatever.

46:05It was not in MSG. But it was in the theater. Oh, the theater, right. It was like. the little MSG, the one that's not really MSG, but still fits like thousands of people. But people went to it, but it was never filmed. And so now it's like, it's a real award show. Yeah. And it's the best award show. Yeah. I agree with you. I think it's the best award. Would you hire Boneyang to work at Pentagram? Oh my God. Yeah. In a heartbeat. Okay. I'm going to tell a story. Last year, we had just started working on it, and they had to do an announcement of all the categories. And I think they thought we were busy and they didn't want to bother us.

46:46So Bowen did it. That's sick. Hell yeah. Amazing. Yeah. More clients should do the design themselves. Yeah. Well. That's a good find. I don't know. But just like, I was so like, Oh my God. Yeah. Did you send him some notes? I felt seen. No. No notes. Yeah. He didn't, he didn't, he didn't ask for, no. Just like, yeah, pretty good. that's a beautiful thing yeah I mean we could talk about SNL forever but we should talk about some of your other projects and other things that you've done recently for my birthday I had some fried chicken and caviar and it was delicious courtesy of Coco Doc I didn't know I was sitting in and eating in an Emily Oberman establishment but I did recognize that the design and the space itself gorgeous well thank you and thank you for going to Coco Doc it's really pretty pretty the food is amazing Crazy.

47:36The fried chicken is all, all the batter is rice flour. So if you're gluten-free, you can go and freely eat at CocoDoc. Okay. Use promo code Emily for 10 % off your discount. Exactly. And if you don't eat chicken, there's also fish and chips, which they will make with the caviar on top if you want. I didn't know. You can do that.

47:58Emily Oberman:Mm-hmm. So, CocoDoc came about because I have a longstanding collaboration with Simon Kim, who is the owner, brains, genius behind a company called Gracious Hospitality, which started out making coat, doing coat. And Simon and I met at Pentagram probably 12 years ago. Ooh, this is a longstanding partnership. Very longstanding. And he had this idea for this restaurant. He used to have a restaurant called Peoria downtown, which had a Michelin store, but he had this idea for this steakhouse that was also Korean barbecue, but it was like the perfect split between the two ideas. So it felt elevated like a steakhouse, but also served Korean barbecue.

48:46And he also had this vision that there wouldn't be those pipes above the table. So they had tables specially designed that suck the smoke out through the table. So there's a giant mechanism under the table that keeps the room not smelling like barbecue and keeps it smoke free. And it's really amazing. And so he came and we hit it off really well immediately. And for me, that's a big, and I think for all of Pentagram, like because we have, you know, partners who have their individual teams and their individual book of business, as it were. Yeah. Each partner has their own sort of vibe and flavor, even though we also collaborate a lot.

49:32Yeah. Simon and I immediately got along. He was wearing cool socks and he was funny. And I just, we really liked each other from the get-go. And so we started working. He had the name Coat already because he wanted it to be Coat, which is a flower. And the flower district in Korea, but also the Coat de Buff. So he liked that it was both a light and delicate thing like a flower and also this sort of big, strong thing like beef. So that was the idea behind it. We started working on the brand and he picked a logo and we had a direction. And then one day he called me and said, I have some bad news.

50:14We lost the space we thought we were going to get. And I've lost some of my backers. So I can't do this right now. But I promise I'll be back. And I hung up the phone and I thought the restaurant business is a tough world. It really is. Hospitality is a tough, tough world. I thought probably never going to hear from that guy again. And a year and a half later, he called me and said, let's go. Wow. And he said, I've got a better space. I've got more backers. We're going to do this better. Wow. And we did. And it's become a huge, it's just many outposts. It's a huge thing. There's now there's Michelin star.

50:52Michelin star. And, you know, there's one in Singapore. There's one in Vegas. There's one in Miami. There's now a second one in New York. But the thing about it is Simon and his whole – this is another one. Like he surrounds himself with amazing people. And this is another one of those sort of like fortunate things where it's not just please make me a menu. It's what do you think of this? What should we do with this? He has always kept me involved in what the architecture should be, what the feeling should be.

51:25Emily Oberman:the bar underneath which is called undercoat we named as like we were in when they took us undercoat when they took us into the space they were like uh this is where the bar is going to be and we're like undercoat yeah it's undercoat yeah no perfect and no notes and simon was like absolutely and that's the other thing that's really nice about having someone at the head who really knows who he is um so but there's also like i can have an idea for a silly uh you know social media post and i'll text simon and say what if we did this and he'll be like let's fucking go um and or he'll that's the kind of relationship you're looking for it's generally across the board is like a hundred relationship where they're like let's fucking go i mean one of my favorite things that we've ever done so then what is the the announcement for coco doc yeah um and again i want to just say like when i'm saying uh you know the undercoat idea we were working there was a designer on my team named todd goldstein he and i had that like he might have said undercoat and i was like absolutely yeah i was like let's fucking go um and you know all the SNL opens, I just have to say, you know, Jace, Anastasia, Laura have been working on the open for so long with me.

52:49And then also this piece that I'm about to talk about was also done by Jace and I just came in and sort of sprinkled the fairy dust on it and like made like three tweaks. But Simon said he wanted, so Co-Doc is the fried chicken version of Coat. And it's amazing. And And he always calls it the like temple of fried chicken. And it has a very sort of temple-like feel when you go into it. And he said, I want something crazy and amazing to announce Coco Doc to the world. Oh, Coco Doc, by the way, is the cockadoodaloo of Korea. Okay. Yeah, I never knew where that name came from. And so we kept some things like the logo has a little, the word chicken in Korean in the middle.

53:38Like this word coat has flower. I'm looking at the case that you were announcing. It's making me so hungry. It's terrible times. But the thing that we did as the announcement for this was a 2001 Space Odyssey. And it's like just a giant egg. And it's like, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then the logo comes in. And then it ends with, like in the movie, there's that bone that goes flying up in the air. It's a chicken leg, a drumstick. And we made it. And we sent it to Simon. And again, he was like, fuck yeah. Let's go. Like, and I love it so much. And so we have this very trusting, really delightful relationship back and forth where if he's stuck on something, he'll text me.

54:28Like, I just, I love our relationship. I just, it is one of the joys of my adult design career. That's so beautiful. I always say the best work comes from the best relationships. And I probably stole that from someone. But like, it's true. When you understand people get along with them well, have fun working with them, great things happen. And it's also hard work. Yeah, no. I just want to say, like we work, like I always, I like to say that like we do a lot of sort of stuff in comedy or lighthearted things or hospitality. But we also, my whole team and all of Pentagram, really, we all work really, really hard.

55:09I believe. And think about things very, very deeply. Actually, no, it's surprising. I always just thought you guys just kind of would wing it and just kind of make it up as you go. That's kind of the vibe you give off. I think sometimes people think that once you become a partner. You're not in the weeds. It's just like. That's fair. I think so. Moodle sailing like, oh, you've made it now. And now here are your golden slippers. Yeah, you show up once a month and you kind of put some checks on stuff and you sign some checks for your employees and then you're on your own. Yeah, it is very much not that.

55:44You're in it. All of us. Yeah. Every single person. And I like to say that everyone at Pentagram is like at the top of their game, whether it's the chef or the people at the, yes, we have a chef. I know that Natasha mentioned that. but flex alert I know we got it's actually yeah we don't have a chef at all you know uh Kevin yeah I guess I'm the chef he's the director of lunch that is okay that is an important yeah it is an important we go to lunch on Fridays and he often determines where we go well I don't I

56:13Emily Oberman:gauge I read the room you know I survey I'm not a lunch dictator no still you could be but he makes the final call and we look to him for his guidance but having the chef is something that was built into Pentagram from day one. Day one? Day one. Really? Yes. You're like, we need graphic designers, project managers, an office space, and a chef? Pretty much. Wow. To do your mind, Alex. The original partners believe that you should stop in the middle of the day and have a nice, healthy meal, a civilized, nice, healthy meal. Do you guys all sit together like a family? We do. Wow. But the teams are called because the cafeteria area isn't big enough to fit everyone at once.

56:49So they're called in - No way. Like groups of three. groups of three teams, but every day it's a different combination. So there are different people having lunch together. That's a great experience. I love that.

57:02Emily Oberman:Do you have a favorite time to eat lunch? Yeah. When do you guys eat lunch? I don't always eat lunch because I'm like, usually like, I'm going to use this time to read up on the next thing. Um, but, uh, so we don't, lunch is always between one and two ish. And then you're called somewhere in that. Wow. Late. Is that late? I think so. I like a one. I like a one. One. Oh, I would say, I would say to answer your question, one o 'clock is my favorite lunchtime. It's not new. New is too early. What time does the pentagram start? When does the workday start? Depends on your team. Okay. My team comes in at around 10.

57:35Rolls in at around 10. Rolls in. Let's go. Same. Same. But when I get there, usually at about 9.30, there are people there already. Some people on my team, mostly not, but other teams are there already. Okay. I think that's the right answer.

57:54Emily Oberman:I think graphic design time starts at 10 a.m. Yeah, I totally agree. That's my philosophy. Totally. And show up at 930 if you want to kind of, you know, get settled and kind of, you know, grab a coffee and just kind of start to get into the mindset. 10 is fine. How cool is it to see CocoDoc become like this like super trendy and like US Open fodder, like as a brand and sort of as a cultural moment. That was genuinely fun and thrilling. Like because we sort of came up with the idea of this bright orange box. And like I remember coming back from a trip out to the US Open to look at the space and sort of drawing the way the chicken nuggets and the caviar would sit in the box.

58:41Really? Wow. Not quite Paula Sher, Citibank logo level. On a napkin. Yeah, but saying like, oh, I think it should be something. You should find that, yeah. The Coco Doc Signature US Open box. I recently, I was like, does someone have a scan of that thing? Because the paper's long gone. It's just, again, there's this sort of feeling of like energy of like, how are we going to do this? And then having to go through multiple iterations of how the box would work and the stuff would stay and how you would keep the caviar. cold. But the bright orange thing, which we did because that was just like a color that we had already come up with for the, like getting to design a chicken bucket again.

59:24So thrilling. I know I should be talking, there are many problems in the world right now. The world is fucked up. No, no, no, no. This is a place where we ignore all those things. Okay. Yeah. Because, you know. We talk about fried chicken and chicken boxes at US Open. Okay. Because it does feel, you know, sometimes a little shallow. Hey, you know, that's our program. That's what we're here for today. We're here to bring levity at times of need. There's humor, just like SNL, you know, to bring entertainment. Can we be funny? Why start now? Great line. Great. Whoever wrote that. Lauren. Lauren. Brilliant.

59:58Brilliant. Amazing. Yeah. Most I've ever liked Giuliani. Yeah. But a great, an iconic moment in New York history. But yeah, no, US Open. It's the thing. It's the honey deuce and the cocoa dog box totally and simon started out with the honey deuce already existed and he was like i want a honey deuce i want to make a honey deuce i want that for us and so those orange boxes that you could see across the court like you could just boop boop boop boop and then when people started you know showing it on instagram yeah it was real and celebrities like with their cook boxes and and again you know it's a hundred dollar box of chicken nuggets with caviar so that part maybe is a bit yeah I don't want to say shallow but a bit maybe ridiculous but that's part of the appeal of it well and also that year it was only in the sort of VIP area so it was for you know people I guess who could afford to be VIPs but the second year we did CQDQ which is the sort of faster to go thing down in the food court and a slightly different vibe um and these amazing chicken sandwiches and that was sort of the second level of or the second round the second iteration of what Coco Doc and CQDQ could be um which was really great and to be able to have it where anyone could have it as opposed to having like I even had like I didn't have a VIP pass when I first went.

1:01:31Emily Oberman:Oh, that's a shame. You should be VIP. Well, they did get us passes, but I didn't have it. They are very kind and take very, very good care of us. That's great. And you take clients to CocoDoc or you go to CocoDoc all the time, I imagine. Yeah, we have a barter agreement. Oh, really? Free fried chicken? It's not free. And so we work for it, but it is... Graphic design for fried chicken services? Work for your supper. We will sing for our supper, yes. That's a beautiful deal, though. If there is ever a deal. And they treat us so nicely when we go there that it's really wonderful. And I'm just going to say, I can't say what it is, but there's going to be a whole new thing at the U.S.

1:02:14Open this year. Spoiler alert. Very nice. Can't say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Teaser. Teaser for all the people who are watching this podcast who care about. And fried chicken, food, and the US Open.

1:02:27Emily Oberman:I think that's pretty much our entire audience. Oh, yeah, yeah. We do hit that intersection hard. I went to Coco Doc with my parents for my 40th birthday. I agree with you. And we all loved it and had a great time. And the sauces. And it's cool also that your identity takes place or takes form in the space. It's not just like on the menus. because we've done very little hospitality and I would love to do more of it. But it's interesting because you want to brand it, but you don't want to overbrand it. It's not, you know, kind of it needs to be subtle. And it's moments. Well, and I also will say that's sort of the beauty of working with David Rockwell or the Rockwell Group on stuff like this, because we had done the identity before the space.

1:03:16Great. Like again, a couple of years before the space because Simon changed where the space was. And then when the Rockwell group came in, they used the identity to sort of make these sort of signature moments in the space, which isn't to take anything away from the work that they did, which I think is really, really incredible. The space is really beautiful and amazing. But there are touches of the identity that are built into the space, which is what is really nice. even the mirrors when you go in in the beginning. Yeah. It's all, so it's this very seamless. So the thing that I always say is like, I will weasel my way into as much of something as you will let me or us.

1:04:04And so having the ability to be part of the conversation about the architecture and to be part of the conversation about the brand or to be part of the conversation about the edit for the SNL open or all of that is really my goal like yeah give give us an inch we'll take a mile for sure like love that yeah my i say don't wait for the brief um it's how we started doing the spirit awards was we were already doing the identity for film independent uh which is the organization that puts on the spirit awards and we had just started working for them we hadn't presented anything and they said, we're having a little trouble with this year's Spirit Awards identity.

1:04:46You know, we hired like a freelance person to work on it and it doesn't feel right. It's our 30th anniversary. We're not so, would you take a look at what we're doing or what we're thinking about? And I said, if you want, we'll just do the whole, we'll do the whole thing. We'll do the whole show. And they said, we don't have any money. And I said, I don't care. And that's the other beauty also a pentagram you don't have to make any money yeah it's a socialized thing yeah yeah yeah we work with a robin hood model and so we have big clients yeah you know paypal or pfizer or mastercard or verizon for many years um how do we feel about that yellow little gradient thing tough tough i can say it uh it's that's tough i and that they gave up the check for that is a little soul crushing to me like that because that was a thing and they were just getting to the point where they would have just the check mark outside outside locations and stores so the blade sign would just be the check mark and there was a whole plan for that and then the organizations with leadership switched and they didn't want the check at all anymore.

1:06:01Yeah. And they wanted to be more of a lifestyle brand, which... Yeah, no. They're your phone company. Verizon definitely seems really poised to be the next lifestyle brand. I think that's... Verizon for life! Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of people out there with Verizon tattoos, I imagine, people that just, you know, they just are, whatever Verizon does, they're in for, you know? They're in line, waiting to get in the Verizon stores.

1:06:26Emily Oberman:People are living their life on their phones now, so... It's true. Stop it, Kevin. And again. It's tough. It's tough. But what I did want to say is every year at the end of the year, we do a video. We make a sizzle reel of all the work. Or not all the work because it's too much. But like every team gives my team four or five projects. and then we make a sizzle reel of just the work that pentagram has put out in one year how long is that video like eight hours it's kind of eight hours it's it's about a minute it's about a minute and a half and then we do a thing at the end where we sit thank every single person at pentagram so all the names have to go by and that adds like another 30 seconds or something yeah yeah but we do it at this right before our christmas party and it's a big thing and now we also publish it on the website when we do it.

1:07:27And it started out as a way for everyone to sort of say thank you to all the people who work so hard at Pentagram to have a moment where everyone could put it on their social media and say, I did the thing at minute 17, minute 87, and minute 119. And you can send it to your clients and say, like there's, you know, one second of your logo. So we did this thing. And for the past few years, I haven't done it yet. I have been, I want to also do an in memoriam video.

1:08:01Emily Oberman:Oh, for projects that have been killed? For logos that get redesigned or that, you know, that sort of get sunsetted. So like the Verizon logo, like that sort of, like I just, I haven't done it yet, but I really want us to make an in memoriam. That'll play. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Everyone will laugh. Yeah. Especially at a conference. I feel like if you play that, you know, put it to like the eyes of an angel or something. Yes, exactly. And it's a sad moment for all the logos lost. Oh. Yeah. All the logos we want. And the logos are in slow motion. They're like superimposed. They fade away. Yeah. That's happening to us here because, of course, we're still a new up and coming design agency.

1:08:42And so now we're having projects where they are, you know, sunsetting or things are changing. And it's a tough thing. I've never had to deal with that in my previous life. And so now it's, yeah. How do you just kind of say that's showbiz? It can be really, really hard and sad. It is sad. And the work that you guys do is so good. Oh. And so like we're sitting amongst it all here and it's really beautiful, smart, interesting, thoughtful considered work that isn't like I don't see a formula for you and your work and so that's really really great like when I look at all the stuff it all has you did liquid death?

1:09:28Just a tease. They were a client of ours for a year and a half or so we helped them do some tease and do some weird bits and videos not too different than your piratey commercials experience of doing typeface and sort of copy stuff But yeah, thank you. That means the world to me. I won't cry, but I could if I think about it too much. But saying that is, again, coming from you means the world. And I hope that you'll recommend me for a pentagram partner at your next meeting. And just stand by. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm ready for the tribunal and the interrogation that comes with it.

1:10:10Emily Oberman:Are we all coming with you? I don't know, Kevin. We'll see. It's going to. Well, that's another thing in the bylaws of Pentagram is that we don't break up. Oh, yeah. Got to keep the magic alive. No, no. We don't break up. Like to bring partners on, we won't disrupt. Fire their employees? Oh, no. No. We try not to do that also, like steal from our friends in terms of employees. We try to be very, very good about that. I was interviewing someone once for a job, and I said, well, how did you come to be here? And she said, oh, I work for blah, blah, blah, a friend of mine. And I said, like, what? I mean, I guess I should have read the resume beforehand.

1:10:56And she said, yes. And I said, this interview is over. Yeah. I can't hire you. There's not a chance that we'll do that. And I know that that's a pentagram-wide feeling.

1:11:12Emily Oberman:What's the acceptable buffer in between that? There is a buffer. I would say there's a buffer. What's the line? It's probably a year, a year and a half maybe. Also, if someone leaves a job, if they've left, then I think it's fair game. But they can't be cheating on their job. Yeah. No, I agree. If it's a, you know, if it's a friend. Yeah, no. A colleague. That's also a new thing about my new life here as a studio owner. It's, you know, I've had an agency, I won't name them. They're called Jones Mills Ritchie. And they continue to take my employees. And, you know, listen, they're friends of mine.

1:11:49So that makes it even more. It's hard, right? Harder. And it's, yeah, it's an unexpected part of all this that I imagine you've experienced many, many times and had sad moments. or, you know, people leave and you have people that are on your team. And it's just like that. I don't know if I'll ever get used to that. We've also had people leave and then become our client. That's an interesting thing. Which is hard, but also good. Like so far, it's been going well. The couple of times it's happened. But it's also like, oh, okay. I can't say. They hire you. I can't say no now. Or maybe you have to say no now.

1:12:26I mean. No, the project that I'm thinking of is going really, really well. So I'm very happy about it. And they've turned out to be. A great client. Yeah. Oh, well, that's good then. What I was going to say is the hardest one of the like logos that don't exist anymore is the DC logo for me, which I was very proud of. We made what I think was a really good logo, which was hated immediately when it came out on the internet. And bless that client. they were like, we know, we're not freaking out. And it took like two months for people to be like, oh, I see what they were doing with this. And then it became a very, very strong logo.

1:13:10And the thing about that DC logo was we embedded the entire history of DC logos in that one mark. We took a little from the Milton Glaser logo. We took a little from the original logo. There were curves that were based on curves. There was something, it was so, and it was meant to be like simple and timeless and a sponge. And at the time that we were doing that, I had said, why don't you go back to the bullet, which is what they call the Milton Glaser one. And they were like, oh, for legal reasons, we can't. We also don't want to look backwards. We want to look forwards. We want a new thing, but we, you know, we appreciate the history of that.

1:13:52And I said, or maybe we change it a little and we add instead of four stars it's seven stars for the justice league or like we do something to modernize it a little and they were like no we want something new and so that conversation was had and then like two years ago or a year ago they were like here's the new logo it's the bullet we went back to that and it obviously it's different people than when we were working on it nine years ago so our logo had a long run i think it was around or maybe it was 10 years ago our logo was around for like nine years which in the world of dc is a pretty long time yeah but it hurt because everyone was like oh yay the bullet is back it's so great it's the logo from our childhood we all love it it's so great and no it wasn't that our logo was bad it's that they wanted a new chapter and they wanted to give something to the i don't know it just was like everybody's so happy and i understand why they're all so happy but i'm so sad no one's thinking about it like no one's thinking about not just me there's a whole team of people who are like um and so you don't uh watch any of the movies or uh you can't uh bring yourself to i won't say won't or don't but it's hard yeah because i'm just like oh well i mean i think that that's that sort of care and passion thing that like I imagine has driven you to be Emily Oberman.

1:15:22Well, I've been Emily Oberman since birth. That's fair, I guess so. But you know, in the sort of legendary, iconic graphic designer of our time, sort of Emily Oberman. I am neither legendary nor iconic. I am of our time. Wow. Like I'm around.

1:15:37Emily Oberman:Beautiful. I also heard you on podcast say you're not a role model. You're like, I don't see myself very uh charles barkley of you you know that's he famously said that you know uh me and charles barkley a lot in common same cloth that's the thing that's the thing when i think about him and i think about you should see my gambling debt um just kidding yeah keenan does a great charles oh my god on snl yeah truly great um before we get you out of here we gotta talk about your newest project, a 36 ,000 square foot mansion in Chicago dedicated to magic? Question mark. The Hand and the Eye, a great name.

1:16:18Did you name it? Hell yeah. The Hand and the Eye. Very proud of that name.

1:16:24Emily Oberman:As you should be. So my first question is, what is in the 36 ,000 square foot space of magic? Like what is this? It's a guy with a top hat and a wand and a bunny. That's it. What do they do with the other 35 ,000 square feet? No, it's amazing. Yeah, tell us about this. So it's in Chicago. And if you're familiar with Chicago, there was a place called Lowry's Steakhouse. Of course, famous. Right. So Lowry's Steakhouse went out of business and that space was - River North? Is that where this is? It's on East Ontario Street. Okay. Right off the Miracle Mile. Beautiful. And that space, which has a feeling of a man, it's like an amazing space.

1:17:11There's a man named Glenn Tullman who made money in healthcare. And he has been passionate about magic since childhood. He did magic himself. And it has always been a dream of his to do something like this. He is a member at the Magic Castle. um so he wanted to not recreate the magic castle because this is meant to be not this is just a different iteration when chicago is famous for a very specific style of magic called close-up magic um and he wanted to bring this magic to the people um and so he has had this vision for many years and uh hired again the rockwell group david rockwell who also is a magic obsessed with magic as well as lee v who does hospitality for large venues whose head is also obsessed with magic and then he brought me and michael beirut came we came as a team to work on this coming I mean, two teams coming together, two legends of the game.

1:18:20Yeah, yeah. It's like a DC comic sort of crossover event. Avengers. Avengers, yeah. No, we're not, I don't know. Yeah, like just a cross, more of a crossover than a whole. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And we are also, I have not been obsessed with magic, but I am a fan, a big fan of magic in all its forms from like Penn and Teller and all, you know, real, not that they are real magicians, but all kinds of magic. And, you know, there are two people, two kinds of people in the world, people who want to know, well, maybe three people who don't like magic. But if you do like magic, there are people who want to know how something is done or who want to be amazed.

1:18:59And I am fully in the want to be amazed category. Like, I don't want to know how it's done. Completely agree. Don't even care. Don't, yeah, don't care. Don't ruin it. Don't ruin it. Yeah. And so we were, I think, recommended by Rockwell Group. And we went in and it's been an amazing project. And so inside, I didn't answer your question, inside the mansion are multiple theaters, all designed to see close-up magic, multiple bars, all designed to, you know, for your enjoyment between shows of magic. There are magicians who wander the halls who might stop and do a magic trick for you while you're waiting, while you're having a drink.

1:19:50There are little delightful surprises built into the place. There's a place where if you put your hand on the wall or you listen, it beats like a heartbeat. Wow. The wall has a heartbeat? The wall has a heartbeat. Whoa. And it's all, it's done in the style of a beautiful mansion. there's a piano in the main lobby before you go up the grand staircase that just plays itself um there's all sorts of one of the bars uh has you know the the bartender will occasionally do magic also and when that's a bar called the red herring um and when the there's a glass blown um red fish on the outside and when the magic is happening that lights up like crispy cream And there's also a members club, so you can be a member of it.

1:20:46And so you can, you know, like a social club. So you can be a member and spend time there, or you can go for a night. So you don't like it. At the Magic Castle, you have to be a member or be invited by a member to go. And at the hand in the eye, you don't. And it's all about this sort of joyful level of wonder and astonishment. and the thing that we sort of decided in we were creating the pillars for the whole thing. Because again, we do a lot. I think people think that Pentagram doesn't do strategic work. I don't know why. They think we're just like a branding agency that does logos. But we do a tremendous amount of strategic work and strategy and all of that mission, vision, values stuff.

1:21:29Why do you think people think that? I don't know. I don't have any idea because we're very hardworking at it and we're very good at it. So I'm really not sure. I think it's because the branding is so strong and so powerful that it might overshadow all the work that's done behind the scenes to get to that. And I don't know if we do the best job in our case studies of explaining how much of that working because in the end, we're so proud of the actual work. And to me, the work is the thing that the real world sees. It's just like magic.

1:22:10Emily Oberman:You want to be amazed. You don't want to know. You don't want to know. Thank you. Kevin. So in the working of that, we sort of came to this idea that everyone who works on the hand and the eye is a magician. Like we are the graphic design magicians and Rockwell is the architectural magic. I thought they actually just should be magicians. No, well, we all had to learn tricks. Okay. But I'm still like. What do you got? I don't, I can't. You didn't bring your deck of hearts. I didn't bring my thing. What do you need? We might have. You need a coin? No. The other thing. That wasn't good. That wasn't bad.

1:22:46Emily Oberman:Yeah. I thought you were really pulling your finger off. The other cool thing was on the client side, on the team, were magicians. Wow. So we had to make sure that everything we did flew, not just with Glenn and with Bree and Eric, who were the people who are direct day-to-day clients and who were, again, nice, smart people who only cared about getting to the right solution, who were not. They were just like, they were generous and the collaboration was amazing. It was super stressful. But so there were always magicians and the magicians would always say like, well, a magician wouldn't want this and so you know their goal is for this thing to be great not just for the people who come but for the magicians they want the heads they want magicians to come from the world around and feel like they're treated really well and so we had to think about all that but we did get to design stuff like a deck of cards where the magicians talked to us about where the you know where the numbers and where the suits had to fall on the cards for the for them to be able to read a deck easily and all of that stuff was really or like and again i care about this little detail stuff in this powerful way like we got to design the coin there's a machine that's kind of like a you know what i'm probably not even supposed to say half of this you can't reveal the trick i shouldn't like because part of the there are there are very few images put out into the world of what the interior looks like.

1:24:24I was just trying to find something. And that is all by design.

1:24:26Emily Oberman:Yeah. But anyway, we got to design all these little details that made the magicians happy and proud and worked right and fit in their hands. And we designed, you know, there are magic tricks that you can buy and we've got to design that packaging. And it's all part of the story of the evening, the story that you have while you're there and the human connection so that every moment is a chance for someone to say something or interact with you in a human way. No phones. I know something. No nothing. And it's really kind of an amazing experience. And there's a restaurant. You get a delicious meal.

1:25:08The food is great. I know I sound like a commercial. Come down to the hand in the eye in Chicago and get yourself a fun night of magic. Promo code Emily. See you all soon. Exactly. It's beautiful. I mean, it's absolutely stunning. I have been looking at some of the photos while you've been talking about it. And it's, yeah, it is a, people, magicians are going to come from all around the world. They're going to pilgrimage to the space. And it's, yeah, it's incredible. I also read, it was originally named Metamorphosis after Houdini. And the hand in the eye is a much better name. Oh, thank you. It's more classy and interesting.

1:25:53Metamorphosis sounds like a - It's a mouthful. Yeah, tough to say. I was not a metamorphosis hater. Okay. I did not mind it as a name. It's also a very pretty word. And I thought this reference to Houdini was really lovely, but the magicians thought that other magicians would think it was a cliche. And that's why we went away from day one. When they hired us, they were like, we got to have a new name. And it was mostly, again, because they wanted, you know the there are no magic cliches we try and i made a joke about a top hat and a wand but there are there is very little there's a painting of a bunny in a top hat that's really beautiful but it's not a place filled with bunnies and top hats and gloves and flowers being pulled out of like it's not that it's a very it's it is very much about close-up magic where the magicians really talk to you and get to know you and do magic with you.

1:26:47The first like real incredible trick that I saw, I'm still blown away by it. Really? I was going to ask, did you get to go? Have you been through the whole experience? Because it just opened, right? Yeah, it just opened. Oh, and they did this other incredible thing, which is this woman, Bree Smith, who runs the whole show, but she is sort of the hospitality magician who makes the whole thing run. She met gary baseman in la and they got along really well and then she brought him on to be the artist in residence at the hand in the eye so he goes and he does draw like he did drawings on the menus and stuff and then they frame them and they're just incredible i if you're familiar with gary baseman's work he's very famous um illustrator animator cartoonist artist just amazing work and he brought his flavor to it.

1:27:45And then there's another illustrator named Jimmy Thompson who did the, there's an illustration of the, we created this like axiometric drawing of the whole place, which you'll see on social media because that's one of the only things you can take home with you. So that's been the thing that people have been photographing. So working with him, very different style from Gary, but the two really work beautifully because I think the brand manages to hold, to be strong enough to hold it all together. And again, the experience of being in the space, the Rockwell group, like there is not a single detail, nothing, like none of us, all of us worked really hard to make sure that every single moment.

1:28:29I love, that was an unfinished sentence, but I love when you know, when you can tell that there was a human being behind a thought or behind an idea or behind a little, like when the littlest details sort of let you know. And I feel like this is an entire experience of that because that's sort of what magic is because, and that's why it's called the hand and the eye, because the hand is what the magician brings to it. And the eye is what the audience brings to it. So those two things together is where the magic happens. It's a beautiful project. And the website to sort of all the menus I'm looking at, they have two types of bread that both look really good.

1:29:19Really good. Yeah. And it's, you could tell that people put a lot of love into the details. And we worked with Paper Tiger on the website and they did an amazing job. But getting into like having the building be the iconic thing and diving into the building for the website. They're done. And I'm hoping that, like my relationship with Simon, this is something that is ongoing. I mean, it's exciting. And I'm not a magic guy, but I do see - You are magic. You're a magic guy. Oh, that's so nice of you. Emily, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on our show. You started following our Instagram.

1:29:57And I was like, what? Emily Olbermann is following us? So I slid in your DMs, which was a real highlight of my life, getting to slide into the DMs of a design legend and asked you to come on. And since then, we've been best friends. We have. And I am just so honored and excited about our new friendship. And also Kevin as well. Yes, of course, I'm Kevin. Yes, yes. It's all of us here from the program. You're a friend of the show and we really mean it, but all the nice things you've ever said about us and just truly thank you for all that you've done for our industry and also for me personally. And also it's just cool to hear you talk about the work and so much passion.

1:30:41And just, again, it just reminds me

1:30:43Emily Oberman:that why I love what I do and getting to get into weird things like magic or sort of a Korean fried chicken or whatever is coming next. I'm sure there's 10 things that you're obsessing about right now on a project. And yeah, it's just great to meet you. Well, can I just? Yeah. Thank you for that. But that's the other reason I love my job is because I get to learn so many different things. We're working on a project for women's health care right now for, you know, safe abortions for women. We're also working on, you know, we had a job years ago that was for a company that did work on, you know, kidney.

1:31:23It was about renal. I'm doing a terrible job of this. But I got to for a little while. It's all gone from my brain. Of course, yeah, in one year. But for a little while, I got to learn about that and understand that. So I love working on all the different projects. It makes me, I think, I hope, a smarter, better, more well-rounded person. And that's what comes through is that sort of love of getting to dive into all those worlds. And it's something that I really resonate with and talk about here, where I get to work on a sperm health brand and a mayo brand. Exactly. and a restaurant project and I'm just in all these random worlds and for a little bit of time and then I forget everything I've learned just like you do but I grow and it's just fun and I'm glad that people like you exist and say it's still fun and you should keep doing it and so thank you for it and thank you for coming and telling so many great stories you should definitely keep doing it because you're very good at it well you know what I was debating it before we started recording.

1:32:29And I said, only if Pentagram will take me as a partner. No, I'm kidding. I, you know, I will say it's a journey. I just hit year 20. So I'm not new to this, but I do feel like it's, you gotta love it. Did you watch Debbie's TED Talk about sort of how long the experience disappears? It just came up in my Instagram. She told me a few days ago that it was about to go live. And then I've been busy and it just came up in my feed. And so I'm going to watch it perhaps on my way home today. Yeah, I can't recommend it enough. We're, you know, we're huge. We're in the Debbie Millman fan club here at the show and just in general in life.

1:33:13And I, again, thank her for everything she's ever done for me and what she's done for our industry. but that really resonated with me as well because you do these projects and the joy of it launching and all that and the pride, you win an award and it just fades away. So you gotta love the climb. And it fades away so quickly. How long does it take you to - An hour. An hour? An hour, that's all? I don't know, a day if I'm being generous? Like, I mean, I'm literally like -

1:33:48Emily Oberman:Yeah. You know, the thing that we were talking about earlier, we're like, oh, but the, you know, there was a little hiccup in the video and it didn't quite run. Like, but I also just want to say in the Debbie Millman fan club. The best. The best. One of one. One of one and kind again and just one of my best friends. Yeah, no, no. One of my best friends. uh yeah and just kind wonderful people and that's what makes people successful in this industry and but yeah it takes me about three or four days for it to wear off so i'm uh yeah no i get i get a couple days uh i try to extend it uh and maybe even go to a dinner a nice dinner to to appreciate it my wife is is good at that she likes to remind me oh you know you just you know you just became a professor at SVA, like, let's go and celebrate.

1:34:43I'm like, oh, am I kind of, you know, I'm over, you know, that wore off that excitement or the pride that I feel actually reminds me to celebrate. No, okay. I'll take the one hour back, but go two hours, 17 hours. Wow. Wow. Beautiful. Wow. But no, it's true though. But I, and the thing that I learned from that TED talk that I really, and I'm sorry to ruin it for you, but it's like, I talked to Debbie a lot about it before. We all experience it. That's the thing. Every one of us from all around the world, tuning in, listening to this episode, that made it to the hour plus mark on YouTube. I thought it was just me that would achieve something great and then it would fade fast.

1:35:27And it turns out we all have this affliction. We all have all the same things. It doesn't change. I still feel bad when a client is not happy. I still have anxiety before a presentation. I still worry when something goes to print or goes to air. I still worry. I still worry about all of it. And I still think, oh, I finished that thing. There's not going to be another thing. Like I still, I still have all of it. And the thing that blows my mind is that Debbie still has all of that. I know. How? How is it possible to be Debbie Millman? I agree. And still think. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not Debbie Millman.

1:36:08I'm not Debbie Millman. Yeah, I know. I had that conversation with her a couple of years ago and I was like, I was the same way. I was like, you've written eight books. And she's like, actually, it's 11. No, I'm kidding. Or something like that. And then she's like, how do you not feel like King Kong? And it's just like, yeah. She has said things to me like, I worry that when I'm, you know, that I'm not leaving enough. I'm not doing enough. I'm not leaving enough legacy. And I'm like, are you kidding me? a master's program at SVA. You've written, yeah, 11 books. You've done two TED Talks. You do op-ed pieces.

1:36:41You've done TED Talks. The biggest design podcast of all time. So yeah, I mean, it's, but it's, but we, but you know, in some ways it makes me feel better because we all experience this. And that's something that I find to be quite beautiful. I think if we didn't have that, we might be assholes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe we should be assholes. I'm comfortable not being an asshole. Oh, that's very, yeah. You know what? Take it back. I don't want to be an asshole, but just for a little bit, wouldn't it be nice to just kind of be, feel like you were relaxed and great. You can do that and be nice. You can be a little, I mean, I have met relaxed people who are nice.

1:37:18I don't understand it, but like, I'm just like, do you still feel like maybe like if you don't say yes to a project, like they'll stop coming? Yes. I definitely think that. I definitely, absolutely, positively think that. And I also, I have to say, I'm married to a graphic designer. Yeah, yeah. One of the most famous, most talented, yeah, one of the greats. And he does not quite have what I have. He is, and he is not an asshole, but he is very comfortable being Paul Sayre. Yeah. And when I do something and a client doesn't like it, I think, what did I do wrong? And when Paul does something and a client doesn't like it, he thinks, what is wrong with them?

1:38:08Wow. Wow. Yeah. I'm more like you.

1:38:12Emily Oberman:And I wish that I had that. Me too. And again, not to the point of being an asshole, which again, Paul is not. but to be able to be like oh you didn't like that thing I did well you're wrong or that's okay I'll do another thing whatever it is as opposed to oh what did I do like why do you think you would have the success that you've had if you had that mentality no I don't think so I also think I think the training goes back to Tibor I think Tibor kind of like made me like pushed me in a way that was both warm and scary what was he like aha um Tibor was one of the smartest funniest most intense people I've ever known.

1:39:12He had an intuition that was incredible. He had a drive that was unstoppable. He also could be awful. Yeah. But he was the great outweighed the rest of it for me.

1:39:32Emily Oberman:Yeah. I don't know that that was true for everyone. Everyone, I was there for six years, which I think is the longest time anyone ever stayed at M & Company. But he was, I'm so glad to have had him shaping me, to have had him teach me to say, you think you want this, but what you really want is this. To have him be able to push for, he was a person who also like, when colors magazine came to us it was to be the art directors to be the designers and t-bor said no i want to be the editor i don't want to just be the designer um so he sort of was the beginning of teaching me to like when they offer you something take more like and and that was really influential in, I think, how I try to move through the world with clients, which is always like, can we also do this?

1:40:37Can we also do that? I think it's an important lesson because designers often get put into a sort of corner and say, you can do this, but don't worry about that. We got it. That's not for you. And I feel like we've been pushing up against that for as long as I've been a designer. And I feel like what's interesting now with AI, and I don't want to talk about AI at all, but I feel like designers have always had to kind of defend design a little bit and say, no, we're more than just this, or we matter and what we do is important. and here's why in light of blank. And I think we're just at another moment of that and an important one.

1:41:26And I think what we do matters more than ever before, but we do need to sort of, I've been calling it turtleneck time, put back the turtlenecks and go back to sort of defending a little bit of why we matter versus maybe just people just assuming that we matter. Or assuming that we don't. Or assuming that we don't. But I think over the last decade, I feel like designers, we've become more meaningful in culture. And, you know, I do think we don't have to sell ourselves quite as much maybe as like the first 10 years of my career where people, you know, didn't really know as much about what we did.

1:42:03Maybe from my perspective. It's true. Design has become both more understandable. Yes. And more accessible and sometimes therefore a little easier to take for granted. I agree. And things looking great is a little bit easier to achieve. And so why you need someone who really knows how to make it great and lasting and not just wrote or not just from an algorithm is more important than ever. and I think we'll weather this nuance, this change. Yeah. But it is important to be able to articulate what makes what we do important because there are a lot of people who might, I think that proof will come.

1:43:01I think there will be people who will think, oh, I don't need that. And then we'll make stuff and then we'll realize, yes oh maybe i did oh maybe there is a difference but i do think we have to uh defend the wall a bit yes oh i totally agree and uh for some reason that is now my responsibility i am so glad that it's your responsibility yeah yeah it's a calling i'm not kidding uh but no i'm excited to do it and uh i yeah i get 30 minutes on a stage and i gotta bring it so uh yeah thank you for helping me uh just in that moment help yeah i think it matters i agree with you completely like it matters more than ever but we do have to remind people a bit why and uh that is a challenge that i am uh i'm ready to take on but it's it is it is important it really i do find it important and i do think um yeah we i remember we used to say like we have to fight for our seat at the table like that was like the designer line and then we got to see the table so these are my thoughts going into this writing process of this kind of talk, but it's, it's, it's, it's, um, great to talk to you because it is a reminder of like, it, it, it obviously matters, but why it matters and how it matters.

1:44:13And I don't know what I'm saying anymore, but like, I was just, damn it. Damn it. I was waiting for him to, ah, I totally was like, I'm going to say it. I'm going to say it. I'm going to say it. That's a brilliant name for a podcast. You think? Wow. Wow. Wow. Design matters. Copyright, Alex Center. That's our show. You heard it here first. That's our show. Thank you, Emily. Thank you. What does Debbie say at the end of her show? She says, like, you could be nice or what does she - We can make a difference. Yes. Or you can - We can talk about making a difference or - Oh, crap. Got it. You can talk about making a difference.

1:44:55You can make a difference. Or you can do both. Alex Center. There you go. Perfect. Oh, thank you so much. That's our program. Thank you.