Rethink and Advance: with Leland Maschmeyer

27:58No, it definitely didn't. Starting a company is so hard. Not for me. For some of us idiots, it takes us time. That's what people say. It's so hard, so hard. I mean, not for me. Yeah, the design industry was different back then because design was even more cottage than it is now if it was in an ad agency, it was sort of like a specialty department that was rolled in for pitches to say, we do more than advertising. And it was like the last thing presented. And they still do that. Now, a lot of them have gotten better, but it was very much that way back then. So design was just seen as smaller, seen as this beautiful craft thing and had value, but it was just a small things.

28:49So Brian and I got together and we had this phrase that really drove us and everything that we wanted to do, which was incredible design at incredible scale. Because design was never, we didn't want to do design on these small tchotchkes, these small things. We wanted to like, how can we push design to bigger places, bigger projects, bigger opportunities, bigger impact? And so, and that's even rooted in like Brian's work at Ogilvy, where his, the acronym for his group's name was BIG. And it was an acronym for Brand Innovation Group. And so that spirit continued on with us. The problem was very simple stuff.

29:24Like how do you package up this story and sell it? How do you commercialize it and propose? How do you price it? I had never done anything like this. And I mean, Brian had, but Brian's a creative director. And so there was a major skill gap there. And so I brought in all these like high-minded, informed by books and ambitious, you know, young mind stuff to say like, we're going to do transformation design. And the reason we call it transformation design, because if you do industrial design, you do industrial products. If you do graphic design, you do graphics. If you do website design, you do websites.

30:00We want to focus on the outcome. We want to focus on the big changes we can drive in a company. And so we invented, we didn't invent the term. It was actually came out of like a group in in um london the red design group that was practicing design and had called the transformation design so we wanted to build on the that hard work and the amazing stuff that hillary cottam had been doing out there and just kind of like expand it into the u.s and stuff and so we tried to sell transformation design and no one knew what it was and i could not explain it in a way that any client would want to buy it we spent like two years trying to do that was spotify the moment where you guys feel like maybe there was like a case study that showed the power of like transformative brand using design to sort of like create value beyond a product because obviously Spotify invents streaming music.

30:53Apple should have came in and just wiped them out of the way and just been like, nope, music, we do that better. And Spotify, you know, didn't have a great brand and you guys created basically a sort of moat or sort of a shield, you know, with that amazing design system and really created what is one of now the most important brands of our time. Was that like, or is there a project before that? At least for me, that was the first time I was introduced to college, I think. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I love that you introduced it that way. I mean, I should say that Spotify didn't win because of the brand.

31:26it won because of the combination between the brand and very sound product and business strategy with it but the the yes that was the turning point so i i we we had a little bit of a turning point behind that when we won a retainer from target okay and we beat out ideo for it and that was one where i said i saw that come in i said we're going to win this yeah because i just want to prove that we can win this and we changed our whole strategy and the way we pitch ourselves and present ourselves and we were much more practical much more tactical and this was one of the real instances where it was like, let's genericize ourselves so that people know how to buy us, as opposed to coming out with this grad school academic thesis of design.

32:06Dumb it down and double my dollars. I don't want to say dumb it down. It's a Jay-Z quote. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I dumbed it down to double my dollars. But yes, that's exactly what happened on Target. And so I then jumped off of that. And then when Spotify hit Brian's inbox, I remember distinctly saying to Brian, I go, Brian, this is the most important project we'll ever win. I'm going to go win this. And I flew with Seth Muratska, who was our project manager at the time, to Austin to meet the creative director of Spotify at the time. This was the first creative director that Spotify ever had.

32:43And we spent so much time with him. He's Swedish. And that's important because a lot of Swedish culture is about group conversation and coming to an agreement and stuff. And they had worked with an american advertising agency and were really frustrated by the americanism of it and so i had to get over being an american design firm and kind of say like we we would love working with you we'll be really collaborative and all that stuff so anyway did that we got the assignment and so it was me um christian woodlick and ben crick and seth morosko running the project and this was we were still relatively young as a company but i knew from day one that if we did the work really well it was going to be transformative for us so the whole thing that we did with them was it was it was mainly a brand identity assignment but to do that you obviously have to root it in a concept and so the concept we rooted it in was the deep personalization of music and how Spotify was advancing music culture by introducing personalization to a level that no one else ever had.

33:53It was a continuation of mixtapes and mixed CDs and the playlist was absolutely critical to their business model. So the whole identity system was around designing a visual corollary for the idea of what happens when you listen to music that perfectly matches changes your mood and changes the chemistry of how you're feeling in the moment. So that's where the duotone thing came from. That's where the burst shapes came from and stuff. And the most important thing with it was Spotify said at the time when we said, well, what kind of company are you? Well, we're an engineering company. I go, why would you say that?

34:29Why would you say you're an engineer? Engineering is just what you do to build the product that does the thing that you really are. They're a product company and they didn't really have much of a brand, right? The product was good enough they didn't really need a brand that's the thing brand to them was a png file yeah it's just like a logo that yeah it's just a logo that you upload a weird green circle but but a huge part of us selling in the identity was like look guys mtv has abdicated the throne of music culture and youth culture you need to own that the front throne sorry i'm yeah keep sorry keep going but you guys need to do that this is your opportunity and we needed to design an identity system that would be inclusive of all visual forms of expression of music and so you We put in a lot of experimentation into it because music is experimental and how to make sure that it has longevity because there's a lot of phase changes in music that happens really quickly.

35:18So the brand has to keep up with that and flex to it. So we had to build all of that in. Anyway, to your point, that launched and immediately the vibe changed around us. From that point on, we never had to worry about work. We never had to go get work. It was always people lining up at the door to work with us. And it was because of the Spotify project. Yeah. And I was one of those people lined up at the door. Yeah. Well, you wanted to work for me because I told a story about dragons in Paris. Well, you and I met in 2014. I just looked it up. It was the Dialine Conference of Paris. And I actually was not familiar with Collins.

35:52But it was that moment where you told us an incredible story about dragons and sort of how Collins slays dragons. And yeah, you were doing a 45-minute talk and you did a solid 25 on dragons. And I remember sitting there being like, A, this is insane. And B, this hair is incredible. And C, I have no idea where this is going. And of course, it goes to sort of how Collins slays dragons. And every project has a dragon. Design is dragon slaying. Dragon slaying. But the work for Spotify as a business tool. And I think talking about sort of like, it's a case study for what design and brand can do. And it's amazing to look back at it and be like, we never had to sell again.

36:40Or we never had to try to help people understand what we do because you had done it and it worked. And you could just say, that's what we do here. Yeah. I mean, it's still, you know, in the history of Collins, it's still one of the projects that defines our center. Yeah. Is it your favorite or do you have a personal favorite? I thought of the vitamin one or refresher. That one's in a class all of its own. Is it on the new website? It is. Okay, cool. We blended it with the brand book. I was going to say, you had it as two different projects. It makes sense to be one. I think it's one project. I agree.

37:14It's right here, Brian. It will be, yes. I almost called you Brian. It's right here. One of the things I think about Collins, obviously, transform design, transform the way that design is bought and sold. Obviously, you've had so much success. One of the things I think is incredibly as impressive as everything you've made is the people that have come out of the family tree of Collins. Tim Goodwin, Matt Luckhurst, Leo Porto, Thomas Wilder, Ben Crick, and I'm sure 45 other people that I could name here. How do you find such amazing people? Like what does that make you proud looking back as sort of all these people and seeing what they're doing now in terms of the in sports?

37:53There's called the coaching family tree, right? And you can all it comes down from Parcells and he's got his his assistant coaches and they become it. And I feel like Collins has that same reputation and that same sort of lineage. Do you think about it? There's so much to think about on a daily basis that I don't dedicate a lot of time to it, but I'm very proud of it. And I'm really honored and happy that like it's noticed. Yeah. Someone I think was on the show and even was like, well, you're part of it. I'm like, well, I was just a client, but it's like I'm an adjacent part of it. And I'm proud to even be a part of even something that was there.

38:24Because for me, when I walked into the door of Collins for the first time, I was like, this is amazing. Just genuinely, just being like, holy crap. I've been to design studios, I've been to ad agencies, I've been to all sorts of creative shops, but there's a different energy. It was a place that was making craft at the highest level, but also, like you said, it's not just about the craft of making things. And it's about what I love about design, which is making things that have value, but also that people love and care about. And I think for me, it's really set the tone for, I mean, certainly all the work that I've done in my career.

39:01But I think, again, it's transformed all these people's lives. and I think that's the legacy of course like I look at the work and I'm like oh amazing work but I think about the legacy in sort of the people more so and the sort of splintering out of all of what what they've gone on to become and what they've now done and sort of how the whole industry has transformed because of that well I it makes me so happy to hear that to all honesty because like the Brian and I are teachers so he I taught at SVA's graduate program for about 10 years. He taught for longer than that. So we've always seen Collins in many ways as a teaching hospital.

39:46So it's not the place that you come to stay for a long time. It's a place that you come to stay for a period, learn, have some really intense work, really intense moments and stuff, and then kind of carry that with where you want to take it. And so, um, I, I, it makes me really happy seeing people like, for instance, Ben. Yeah. I think that's his fourth or fifth name check on this podcast. I know he's getting a lot of love. Shout out to that. Great guy. Um, but seeing him succeed so much at, um, Apple and even, you know, being highlighted in videos and like, he is the personality on the video walking through design for Apple.

40:20Like that's, yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. That's amazing. Um, or even, you know, like the success of Christian Woodlick and what he's been doing, or I'm trying to think of like, cause we've had writers that have come through that have been fantastic and different program directors and stuff. It's just, it's, it's, it's. I think about Leo a lot because I've seen him a bunch and I'm just like. Yeah, he's obviously doing great. He was, he was like the junior, like a kid fresh out of college on the Vitamin Water Project. And I was like, oh, that kid's really talented. And now, you know, Puerto Rocha is like, you know.

40:49Oh, I mean, he's insane. He did the, he did the, he did a lot of work with us, but he did the Aldo work with me. And he was like running circles around the much senior client just in terms of design and taste and all this stuff it was it was great yeah leo leo was one of those people like it was just like on day one you knew he was going to be the solid guy that you could give anything to and he would knock it out of special talent is there a project or brand that you guys like you know obviously now looking back like you know this 10 15 years later is there still do you have any like white whale projects or anything that you're like i i would i still want to do that thing so there was one for me personally which was doing a nike project okay like we had done a couple nike projects and jordan projects and stuff but i hadn't okay and like for me going all the way back to when i was younger i wanted to be a nike footwear designer really yeah that's interesting and so i went to i i used to draw and i did this in third grade i would literally draw silhouettes of shoes really and then design them wow and then my mom you hear this nike leland is uh you know there's still time for you man you know you still then uh then my mom one time was like well why don't you why don't you send these to nike and so um i did i think this was like an 88 or something i was like in third grade 80 yeah something like that no no it would have been 90 91 um and i eventually got a letter back from nike so this was like all pre-internet so everything snail mail and it was like this typed out yeah yeah it was this typed out note that effectively said something like Thank you for your interest in Nike and wanting to become a footwear designer.

42:26We don't have any openings right now, but we thank you for your interest. And I don't think they actually knew. Oh, they didn't know that you were a child? They didn't know. I don't think they knew I was a child because I'm very lucky in that I grew up with artistic skills and ability to draw and stuff. So I think they've looked at it and actually thought it was an adult with mediocre talent. And they rejected it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As opposed to what they should have wanted and had a thing that responded to me. This is a prodigy. This is a child prodigy. So anyway, I got the chance to work with Nike this year.

42:57And so I've been leading the work and it's Nike Innovation. So working with the chief innovation officer at Nike on Nike Innovation work. And I told him this story and he thought it was the best story. And I go, yeah, now I'm finally where I wanted to be when I was in third grade. That's amazing. Yeah, you've made it. I've made it. Yeah. And the Nike Innovation stuff looks really cool. Did you see those sneakers that would run for you that they just recently came out? Yeah, yeah. Kind of like straps to the top of your feet. But no, it's really cool to see what Nike's doing. They're pushing you, like doing new things, going back to Nike and doing the thing that they did.

43:31And I know everyone talks about they lost their way, but like they're just going back to the lab. And that's the brief. Yeah. Like help us get back to being Nike. Help us get our swagger back, all that type of stuff. And I'm like, I said to him, I go, this is the dream. This is the dream brief I've always wanted. You're doing it. after all the amazing things you do at Collins, you decide to leave and go to Chobani, which I know you've talked about it at Nauseam, but I do, we have to talk about it for a second because you and I meet and I was like, holy shit, this is the dream design company I've always dreamed of.

44:02Like, let's, I'm at Coke. I'm like, let's bring them in. These guys just did Spotify. We were working on vitamin water. Vitamin water. I mean, sorry, we were working on smart water because we just wrapped vitamin water. Because we were like, okay, vitamin water, let's bring them in. You guys are incredible. You know, Brian, you know, again, I get to witness it. I get to see it. I get to be a part of it. And then you're like, I'm going to go work on some yogurt. And I was like, excuse me? Like, what is, where are you going? You said, it's not just yogurt. I'm going to make the Disneyland of food.

44:33That's what you told me. And I remember exactly where we were at some restaurant in downtown Manhattan. And I was like, what the fuck is he talking about? And then probably like a year and a half later, Giovanni rebrands and it's a fantastical childlike wonderland of joy. And I was like, it's a fucking Disneyland of food. That's what he said it was going to be. Take me through that. Like that decision, were you like, was there any second doubt? Like leaving the agency that you started and you co-founding? Obviously, Collins is not, you know, is thriving. You're like, oh, cool. Now I'm going to leave it.

45:10Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah, you were talking me out of going to Chobani. I said, I was like, this is a terrible idea. I was like, we need you on the project, Leland. I know I'm one of your many clients, and I'm also someone who works in a house, but you shouldn't do it. The Disneyland food, terrible idea. It's yogurt. So the, yeah, God, there's just a lot in that. Yeah, you don't, yeah. You don't have to unpack everything. I wasn't looking to leave. Yeah. But I do think it's very healthy to know what you would leave for. So you have that sort of mental clarity and centeredness. It doesn't mean you'll act on it.

45:47So I actually had a seven-point list. A deck? No, no, not a deck. A no-tap? No, just seven pickers. Oh, just in the brand. Yes. And didn't think anything of it. And I got a recall from a recruiter, hey, do you want to go and interview for this role at Shobani? And I said, nope, click. Like recruiter called back and said, look, just take the call. At the worst, you just meet some other people, leaders in the industry, and that's it. And I go, okay, that's fine. So I actually went with the whole attitude of, okay, let's see if I can get Shobani as a client. Had a first meeting with the then CMO.

46:24And I'd done a little studying beforehand, so I kind of came in intelligent. And I kind of was like, oh, I can solve a lot of these problems. Like these are all within my wheelhouse. So we had a great conversation with the CMO. He goes, I want you to meet the founder now. And I left that conversation going, wait, am I actually thinking about doing this? And so when I went back to meet the founder, I purposely went in with the most aggressive game plan I could put. I said things like, you're going to have to hire a ton of headcount ahead of revenue. You're going to have to over invest in paying them because no one's going to want to come work here.

46:58So you got to give them some sort of incentive. You need this, this, and this. This is what you in-house. This is what you don't. This is what I'm going to need. This is going to be all the problems that you're going to encounter with me. This is going to be all the problems you're going to encounter in trying to do what you're saying you're going to do. But this is the only way to do it. I thought I was scaring him off. And he leaned in and he gave me his personal phone number. And he goes, you're going to work here. You're the only person who's talked to me this way. I will do whatever it takes to get you here.

47:24And so I left that, had a panic attack. I remember walking on the street because we were just south of Union Square at the time, walking back to the office. this and i was just thinking oh my god i'm gonna do this oh my god i'm going to do this and i was just like i don't know how i'm gonna do this i'm gonna say this blah blah blah so anyway long story short obviously i go and um it was one of the hardest things that i ever did it was the best thing i ever did but there was absolutely no evidence it was ever going to work yeah like there were so many headwinds and there was so so many things stacked in the deck against what we achieved happening that I had many moments where I thought I had made a terrible career decision.

48:07Really? There were moments of regret. Oh, 100%. What about the seven-point list? Did they check all those boxes? Well, sorry, I didn't mention that. Yes, it checked everything on the seven-point list, which is like, this makes no sense. Why would a single product regional yogurt company that people call Cabani rather than Chobani be the company that ticks off everything on my seven-point list. And so that was, that was the thing that convinced me, like, I need to do this. Yeah. It was just, otherwise, had I just, had I just looked at it on the surface, I don't think I would have, um, jumped on it.

48:43And, and, and honestly, like it goes back to like a very core thing with Collins. Collins is at its best. And Collins loves when it takes companies that are underestimated, ignored, undervalued, dismissed, and we flip it into something that people love because we've shown something powerful about it that no one ever saw and that's what we did at shabani you know what you said to me that i think about a lot and that breakfast or something you're like i can't wait for the rebrand to come out or um so that uh i can be uh i'll be proud of the company that i work for yes because the brand at the time and it just was the sterile kind of boring.

49:24It looked like a non-equity Steve Jobs wanted to redesign a yogurt company in his Apple aesthetic. Yeah. And I think about that a lot because branding, of course, is the power and the value of all that it does for consumer packaged goods. But the power of wanting to work for a company that has great branding. And the fact that you were working at the company and it was not something that you were... Obviously, you were aware of its transformation, but you were excited for the brand for yourself and for all the people that work there to be... Be proud of, and as a recruitment tool for people to work at a company, that to me, that stuck with me.

50:00And to be clear, people were very proud working at Chobani. It's not like I had to fix that. That wasn't an issue. There was a lot of passion for Chobani. It's just that the truth of Chobani, what made it authentic, what made it special, wasn't making it outside of the walls because the branding was a drag on that. It didn't represent what the company really was. And I remember introducing the founder to the design system that I and the team made. And I knew he needed to feel it rather than just see it. And so we completely filled a room, just took it over, did large printouts, told a whole story, pulled in folk art and Matisse and all of these different things to kind of connect it.

50:41And just say like, hey, this isn't just about what your brand looks like. It's like, here's how we bring it into the community. Here's how we bring it into culture. Here's how we can set us up to move into new markets, new product markets and stuff. And I remember he leaned against like a bar table, put his shoulder on it, looked at me and goes, you know, you've done something that nobody else has. You've finally given me the company that I always wanted. He goes, this is perfect. I love it. Let's do it. No notes. And then no notes. And then we just went. And it was, I remember doing an internal presentation of the still in flux design system to the whole company.

51:18Cause you know, you have those like company town halls and stuff. And there was a, a before that town hall, I was seen as the crazy guy who everyone was frustrated working with because I was like holding the line on standards. I was challenging people. I was, I was bringing an agency mentality to stuff. I was like, why can't we do this now? It was your first time working in house. but I was like, this has to be great. This isn't good enough. We got to do better. Push it, push it. And people, it just wasn't part of the culture at that time. And so people found me abrasive, but I was just, from my standpoint, I was just trying to hold people to a very high standard of what I knew we could get to.

51:54And when we presented at this town hall, there was a palpable shift, not only in the perception of me, but the perception of my whole group who was causing a lot of problems for people because we were changing the way things were done so we could get to a higher plane of excellence. And then from then on, it was just like a rocket ship after that. I remember going to design conferences and people walking up to me and just saying how much they love. I remember getting emails from India and Japan and people, fashion brands calling me and saying they wanted to do collabs with our patterns and stuff that we made.

52:27It was just, it was surreal. Like I knew, I was very proud of what we did. And when it launched, I was like, regardless of how much the internet trashes this. I told the team, I'm so proud of what we did. This is excellent. Let's not worry about what the world says. And then the world loved it. And it was just instant success. It was just, yeah. I don't know if I've seen a project have that level of change in the industry, that level of like just, yeah, universal love. Like most, especially for a rebrand, right? And especially, you know, in these modern times where people do not like change. They, you know, so when things get refreshed or you know people are okay with it but when it goes from like a wholesale new change it's really rare that i feel like people are like this is that much better this is you know universally yeah and you know i have my i have a lot of theories on why that happened um none of them are provable and all of them are kind of like esoteric and stuff but vibes but yeah i mean it's you know it's i but this goes back to the craft thing like technical craft can be commoditized Right.

53:31Because tools can do it for you. Yes. But craft of intention, craft of meaning, craft of choices of care and pairing that type of stuff. No tool can replicate that. And you can't really point to it in anything that's made, but you can feel it. I felt it at the party. Yeah. When I launched, like I walked into that space and I was like, this is a company that is really proud of what they're doing right now. I'm very happy. Yeah. You felt that because that's the only way that I can explain the asymmetrical reaction to what it was. It was a rebrand of a slight priced premium regional yogurt brand.

54:13Yeah. I mean, that's all it was. Yeah. And it was just like it became everything. And I remember people sending an artwork about it. I remember people writing me long notes about what it meant to them. to i'm just like this is but but i think it's again i think it goes back to is because we there it was all based on a mythology yeah like there's a lot of humanity yeah i mean it was very it was very much about trying to build a brand world it was very much about trying to channel the sort of ancient mythology of of humanity's return to the garden of eden it was very much folksy and inspired by folk art of mid-Atlantic, um, quilt making actually.

54:55Yeah. And so we've really borrowed a ton of those cues. And I think there's just a, there's just a level of like authenticity and kind of almost, um, symbolic value that gets built into visual expressions when you put that much care into it. Yeah. How does it feel to be the most copied brand of the you know, I actually love it. Yeah. I keep, I keep track of it. Really? You have a folder? I do. I have a folder. Of dupes. There's a dupe of CBD dog biscuits that is the exact Chobani packaging with their information swapped in. Basically, what I've kind of discerned is just like Apple became the aesthetic for global technology.

55:38Yeah. I have the receipts for this, so I can say this. Talk her shit, Leland. But the Chobani rebrand has become the global aesthetic for wellness culture. And it might be drifting. And food, too. Yeah. I mean, I also remember Ithaca Hummus. Yeah. Ithaca Hummus, who was in the Chobani Incubator. Call him out. No, I'm kidding. Well, I mean, it's the exact same. Yeah. No, listen. I mean - And I don't mind. We all, listen, I'll speak for all designers. We all saw it and everyone was like, this is a beautiful way to show food that both feels like, again, it's wellness, it's health, it's magic. It's not a P &G of a blueberry on the front of a yogurt that indicates flavor.

56:18It's an artistic, it's a beautiful solution. And it's, yeah, it is, yeah, don't go on Pinterest. Or go on Pinterest if you want to see a million versions of it across hundreds of different brands. But that's the power of great design. It sets a trend, like you said. And, you know, finding became the language. finding different kinds of points of inspiration and building narrative worlds around it and designing from the narrative world rather than just visual reference. That was the thing that really kind of opened up the multi-layeredness. Like the TV commercial, I think, is a really good example of that.

56:53Which one? The kids where they're running through the forest. Oh, the food fight one? Yeah. I loved that one. Yeah, because it's just like that, it's from the same place as the other packaging and it's just the world of it all. It's the Peter Pan Lost Boys having a food fight with each other. Yeah, it goes back to Disney. It goes back to Disney. So after you do this, you have this incredible success. You're like, I miss Brian. I got to go back. Like, what was the thinking? You know, sort of like you did what you had to do, of course. But like, did you ever think that you would maybe work at Shobani for the rest of your life?

57:22No, no. Because I knew time would run out. Like, look, I joined Shobani when they were a billion dollar company. And did the rebrands or led all creative, took over brand management, led that, took over a product innovation strategy, took over corporate development. uh took over marketing um and just gelled all that together and like i loved that because it was really pushing creativity into all these different parts of the business and then we uh this was right before the pandemic hit and we were prepping to do our s1 to go public at a 10 billion dollar valuation so it took it from one to 10 billion and um uh i just didn't want to be a part of a publicly traded uh food company and i i just there's also i didn't feel like there's anything left for me to do like businesses go through a natural like experiment until they find unlock enormous value and then they go into an exploit phase yeah which which sound it's explore and exploit but it's it sounds critical but it's not but it's true it's like when you find enormous value you build something that you should try to capture as much value from it as possible and so that's the exploit phase and like there wasn't a lot for me to do in the exploit phase and so it was just like i started thinking about what to do next it's a beautiful way of saying you do what you came to do and uh you know it was uh time to sort of move on i mean i think every designer knows that when you work on a project and even if it has the most success in the world like you there comes a part where you're like creatively you're like okay what's next and so next was going back to collins yeah is that an easy decision did you contemplate anything else at that time any transition isn't clear because every transition is a moment to kind of like think and reassess and so collins was an option that i was exploring there were others that other big level positions with big titles and big check sizes and stuff like that that would have been very prestigious and i investigated those but none of them they all actually seemed like very small roles big titles with small roles that didn't interest me and what i did was i reflected on what was really important to me rather than defaulting to an answer.

59:26And what was really important to me was building. I love building companies. And so rather than leave and go start a new company, I was like, I think Collins was ready to go to the next stage. And so I came back, that's why I came back as CEO. I came back to take Collins to the next stage versus and build on its past, but rather not just continue. It all starts with this new website that launches tomorrow that by the time of this podcast recording will have been out for two months probably. I mean, that's sort of phase two of the transformation. The initial transformation happened in Q4 2021 when we repositioned as a business transformation consultancy.

1:00:10Yes. And where brand design was a pillar of what we did, but it wasn't 100 % of what we did. So we added new disciplines. We developed new points of view, new processes, and so on. And that sort of transformation of Collins, I remember you guys like one, like ad agency of the year. And you're like, it was like transformation agency of the year. Like you, it was very much like a point of differentiation for you guys to not be just considered sort of design agency or considered just a brand new consultancy anymore. Just a transformation company. Is that staying or is that in the sort of new version of Collins 3.0 or whatever?

1:00:50It's sharpening, when you put it that way. So the transformation part was super important because it gave us permission to expand into other conversations. And it's not that we left design behind, but we use design as our strategic method in everything we do. So everything that we do across the company is still design, even if we're not making design objects. just like me being a designer as a CEO. So let me get this right. So you want to make the future so irresistible that it becomes inevitable. That's another Alex. Oh, yes. I should write that down. Write it down. It was very good. You just shake your sleeve and these things fall out.

1:01:27He's been saying that. I've been saying this. He's been saying that. And it's just kind of, it's just how I feel. But it went back to a core, that statement and that business transformation thing went back to what we started the company to be. It's just that the market, because of the digital transformation. The decade of digital transformation led by management consultants had educated the market as to what a transformation consultancy was. So we could go back to our original ambition. And so that's what we did. We had huge financial success with it. We've had huge client success with it and continue to win agencies of the year every year since.

1:02:04But now with AI in the game, now with different - What? AI? Was it artificial? Sorry, sorry. A1. A1. Artificial intelligence. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Now with that in the game and with some other trends in the market and just kind of like the leveling up of everyone in the industry, we have to do the next iteration of transformation for the organization where we're leaning into even more of a more specific outcome. So our job is to use, to make companies more valuable to people, investors, and society. and so it's all about rewriting the worth of companies through design i think it's incredible and i really appreciate the sort of uh work that you guys do to really push the whole industry forward because as you know as a group you know there's uh i've i this is an actual uh alexism is uh is uh don't be a craftsperson be a thought leader and i think that's something to me is like i love the craft of design but to me it's really important that we don't fall into that sort of craft maker sort of uh sort of uh piece where it's just about making things look pretty and i I think that's always been the design sort of plight is how do we push forward?

1:03:15And I think it requires people and leaders and agencies like you guys to say, this is where we're all going. Everybody come with us. And we're going to take some swings and we're going to make some charts. And we're going to sort of, we don't know, but we're going to push or we're going to try. And I think that's really valuable for all of us. Yeah. And thank you for saying that. It's very generous. And look, I think at the end of the day, craft will always matter. But craft is a standalone thing in an era where machines are increasingly replicating the versimilitude of craft. Yeah. It doesn't work anymore.

1:03:54It doesn't differentiate. It doesn't stand out. You're not, the whole kind of like business rationale behind selling craft was about selling access to elite skills that were hard to find. It's not so hard to find anymore. Exactly. Yeah. Whether that's through design programs, which have produced incredible talent through tools that close that gap, the craft is just much easier to find right now. So while there's utility value to craft, there's not as much economic value to craft anymore, which is why clients don't pay as much for it anymore. So you now have to pair craft with something else to create that economic value around it.

1:04:33Is that why you were named a young leader at the World Economic Forum? Talk to me about this. Young global leader alongside Pete Buttigieg, Y. Cleve Jean, and Megan Rapinoe. What a group. Holy shit. Leland Mashmeyer what do you guys talk about what are the four of you guys up to yeah what's the four I'm saying what's the four I'm saying what is Pete Buttigieg Wyclef Sean and Megan Rapinoe and Leland Mashmeyer what do you guys up to over there just a lot of complaining a lot of whining yeah yeah Buttigieg is always calling me up and saying bro what do I do about this Trump thing I'm going on an interview give me some talking points give me something to say something smart to say Leland yeah what are we doing with all this money where do we put this money what do I do with these flights with the doors flying off?

1:05:20you're a designer I know you have an idea of how to keep the doors on close the doors it was crazy the door doesn't even need to be there apparently you can fly totally fine no one fell out my show that it's not that serious or critical you would assume that the air would just get sucked out and everyone just scratched down turns out the door can be open we should have planes with open windows who else is on this World Economic Young Leader Forum? Mark Zuckerberg is one. Some prime ministers, the prime minister of New Zealand, Iceland. Is that the one that's dating Katy Perry? No, that's Canada.

1:06:01Oh, no, Justin Trudeau. Justin Trudeau is a young global leader. Yeah. Yeah. I can see you and Justin Trudeau getting along. He just can't bring Katy Perry. Why? I'm going to bow out of that. Because you want the space? Yes. No, it's so it's OK. So it's obviously part of the World Economic Forum. And every year they select 100 people globally who they think represent, as the title says, future global leaders. And there's like a whole vetting process. There's a whole criteria. You have to be nominated. You have to go through interviews, all this stuff. And then they do a selection. And I was lucky enough to be selected in, I think, 2020.

1:06:45Wow. Well, congratulations. I mean, it seems like you need more jobs because I'm also looking at your current resume, which has a lot of April 22nd, 2022 to now. You have a lot of to nows. You're a co-founder of Sway, which is an amazing clean materials company. You're on the board of directors at Basis. I don't know what that is. It's an energy tech company out of New Zealand. You're also a managing director at Key Path Energy. Is that another? It is an investment. Investment. And then Kelmhurst? Kelmhurst. It's my micro VC firm. I was going to say, you have a VC firm? I have a VC firm. What are you investing in?

1:07:24So we started - I got a business to sell you. Yeah. Well, not to get into fund dynamics and so on right now and LPs, but effectively, the first fund we raised focused on enterprise software, right? Because it's available, has good upside, good margins. It's an easy thing to raise money against and deploy against. And the portfolio is actually doing very, very well. a big part of what we've transitioned to is a TACOPS strategy. So what that effectively means is you're looking for, and I'm going to drop a financial term, you're looking for alpha in the market and then you raise money around it to go invest in it.

1:07:57So basically - Kevin, shut off the mics. We're done here. We find opportunities that we think have really good upside and we bring it to our community of investors and we raise money against it in what are called SPVs, special purpose vehicles. and then we invest in them. I knew that one. Yeah. Amazing. And all this to say, you do CEO, Collins, all these amazing jobs and now a podcaster? Can you just let us cook here? Aren't there enough podcasts? I'm coming for you guys. Ah, fuck it. Well, shit. We're fucked. We're fucked, Kevin. Honestly, I'm looking at your setup and your setup is so much better than ours.

1:08:37We've been doing this for five years. We've been doing this for two weeks. Two weeks, I know. You'll figure it out. Oh, man. I'm going through my cringe phase right now with that like talking to a microphone well yeah what are you saying cringe things no it's just you can't listen to it yourself no I haven't listened to a single one because I know I'm bad I struggle with it I don't think you're bad I think you're probably pretty good have you listened to the podcast I've seen some clips I mean this podcast is great you're doing awesome right now No, I mean, you guys got the graphics. You got the cuts in the video.

1:09:15You got the cuts down. It's good. It's very, very, you inspired me. I'm inspired by you guys. All right. Leland, I want to say thank you for inspiring me. I'm grateful for your time. I am lucky enough to call your friend. I am. Yeah, this is long overdue, but genuinely, I can't thank you enough for all that you do for design. All you've done for me personally. and just genuinely a great dude. And I cannot wait to see what you do next with all these energy companies and more specifically this new website. I have some thoughts on case studies at large. I think the case study thing is a bit of a racket.

1:09:57Maybe we can just chill out a little bit with the case studies. Maybe a couple key images show off the work. And then these 15 to 20 to 75 pages of videos in motion, don't you think we can we can all kind of agree that it's a lot of work it is a lot of work but it's also the way you merchandise what you do I know, that's what you said it's our supreme t-shirts on the wall it matters, it really matters no, it's true, and without it who knows where we'd be but there's always an opportunity to rethink in advance that's some Leland Massmeyer shit thank you so much for coming on the show thank you for dropping so much knowledge Leland, you're a legend and yeah, we'll come back sometime.

1:10:39Yeah, I feel like, you know, based on your performance here today, I would certainly be interested to hear more of your speaking. So I'll probably be listening to some of the podcasts. Wow, what's the name of the podcast? Plug your podcast, yeah. It's called Hitmakers because I'm doing it with Ana Angelique and she wrote that book, Hitmakers. So it's a continuation of the core thesis in there. Well, you know, if people are like me who are listening, they'll probably tune in as well. Can I do a little plug for it? No, plug away. Plug away. I have to take advantage of these since we're a fledgling long tail podcast to catch up to the fat part of the tail where you guys are.

1:11:14That's right. And if you have been listening for an hour and 25 minutes or watching on YouTube, shout out to the YouTube. We're only just about an hour. Yeah, then we're good. Then they're loyalists and they definitely want to know about your – Got it. Yeah. Plug away. Plug, plug, plug. So you guys have probably picked up that I'm very fascinated by the overlap between creativity and capital. Ah, you know. I hear you live at the intersection. at the intersection yes that's right yeah pick me up i'm at the end but i think they actually have a lot more in common a lot in common than people think and they're not actually opposite sides of stuff they're actually they're actually pursuing the same ends just with different tools and some different vocabulary so when you unite forces and sort of a justice league approach you can do like insane amazing things so the podcast is built on that spirit where um we look at how cool is made in cultural markets and then track it to how it affects capital in financial markets.

1:12:12Cool. So it's a way of looking at culture through the lens of finance and economics. And so you can actually understand how creativity makes a difference in the financial performance of companies and markets. Yeah, fire. Yeah. And it's important. Because again, I hate when people dumb it down to making things cool, But in some way, it's so important. It's what people find to be cool influences everything. Well, it's like why it's, and we don't talk about just in academics. It's like, why did Lububu become popular? Yeah. Or why did Zoran just win the mayor? Why did Zoran win the mayor? Yeah. Why is Donald Trump understanding this better than a lot of CMOs and chief brand officers?

1:12:55why um why did road hayley um hayley beaver's uh thing sell for two billion dollars why was it so like when you unpack this stuff you actually realize it's not magic like there's there's magic in there like you can't you can't squeeze that out but there's actual real mechanics for taking things and like building real businesses around it and taking something that um um uh uh like toys or um what's a really good example basically like creating an ip culture it's like why is a24 who's a movie studio building restaurants yeah why do they have membership programs couldn't get in yeah overbooked but this is the things that we explore and we kind of help every all the audience kind of understand this based on things that we're seeing in the real world and then we kind of unpack the mechanics behind it so that people can like learn how to do it in their brands and their business and in their work.

1:13:49Yeah. Yeah. And her Instagram is amazing. Then I've been following. But it's not happenstance. It's not, it's not magic. There's like, think of it this way. Yeah. Like if, um, if, if, if create, if cultural markets are things that give stuff, symbolic value and symbolic value drives higher price points, higher margin, less dependency on discounting. So there's a financial outcome to being cool and to being seen as symbolically and culturally meaningful. Okay. Who are the brands that are at the bleeding edge of innovation for figuring out how to do that? It's the luxury brands because their entire margin depends on it.

1:14:31And so when you look at a luxury brand that way and you unpack what they're doing and seeing the consistent patterns and the mechanics of what they're doing, you realize, oh, there's a way to do this in a way that is repeatable, reliable, and increases the opportunity that you can create cultural value, cultural meaning around your products. And so that's what we figure out and talk about. Yeah. And it's fascinating. And I think people that are really like to go deep into sort of the, yeah, the science and the art and the intersection of commerce and creativity and, and, and, and yeah, honestly, like what makes people want to wear a logo on their chest.

1:15:14And it's, it's funny, I talk about this a lot. It's like, it's a feeling and it's something that, you know, can be engineered. It's incredibly difficult, but when you get it, you got it. and wrote in, you know, sort of Zoran. And it's like, you know, there was cultural capital in having that phone case or, you know, posting, you know, Zoran, I voted. You know, it transcends categories. It's just a feeling. And there's a reason Saint Laurent created, established a movie studio. Yeah. And is publishing feature length films that are like of exceptionally high caliber and winning Oscars for them. Like that's not just because they're passionate about it.

1:15:52It's a core recognition that they're not in the fashion business or even the apparel business. They're in the IP business. And that IP gets translated to either apparel, jewelry, cosmetics, entertainment, and so on. And so it's just a way of monetizing IP. I realize I didn't get to one of my most important questions. What's your favorite franchise of The Real Housewives? Salt Lake City or are you more of a Los Angeles kind of guy? I have no idea. Oh, wow. Shocker. Shocker to me. Do you watch reality television? Do you watch? Do you have guilty pleasures? What are Leland Mashmeyer's guilty pleasures?

1:16:29That's really the big question. Or what are you doing with your free time? Yeah, what do you do on the weekends? Do you have free time? I have two young kids, so my free time gets condensed down to maybe 30 minutes at 1130 at night where I can decompress. And what does that look like? It is actually, you know, my stupidest guilty pleasures is watching Bar Rescue. Okay, we'll take it. We'll take it. Because I don't have to think. It's the same pattern. It's like I can jump in and out. Bar Rescue. Bar Rescue. It's a lot like transformation. There's some parallels there. Maybe I'll write a LinkedIn post about what Bar Rescue taught me about transforming businesses.

1:17:07That'd be fire. That would do numbers. That would do numbers, bro. Maybe I'll have John Tapper come in interview with me. I bet you could get him on the podcast. You could totally get him. Yeah. In the preparation for this episode, Kevin puts together these insane Google Docs. It's like 12 pages about you and all these things. And one of them says, check out this LinkedIn post that did Numbies. And it's that post that you put about someone that you met at a party, about dinner party. And they said that there's no voice for design anymore. Does anyone have a point of view? And, you know, clearly they haven't listened to the front side of the podcast.

1:17:44Do you want to name who that person was? No. I won't name it. But no, you have a... LinkedIn, you're a prolific... I mean, Brian is one of the great LinkedIners of all time. I think LinkedIn sent Brian like a platinum plaque for being the number one poster on LinkedIn. Everyone's posting like that, right? Because it forces you to click the see more, which registers that interaction. I think he's the first person to do that, right? To my knowledge, he's the first person I ever saw. Wait, he reinvented the way that people use LinkedIn? It's the Brian Collins method. I really think so. Oh, man. Because everyone's doing it now.

1:18:18Yeah. Well, he also just naturally writes that way. Yeah. But yes, you're 100 % right. It forces you to click and engage. Wait, what does it do? So it's a line, and then it's like another line, and then it's another line? But yeah, so the most recent one he posted, I think, says, the first sentence was, this wasn't supposed to happen, period. Line break, line break, line break. Oh, okay. And then you click on the far right, see more. Wow, wow, man. And you're like, fine, click. I always got to see more. Yeah. And that's why LinkedIn reached out to him. And they said, you know, you're changing the game.

1:18:45Yes, you're keeping us alive. Keep going. Yeah, we'll send you a plaque. How can we support you? He's the Mr. Beast of LinkedIn. I send him a plaque. Mr. Beast of business. Yes, I love that. Yeah, yeah. They send him a plaque. They're just like one million posts. And yeah, most likes in LinkedIn history. Most engagement. I mean, it's an art. It is. But it takes a lot of effort, man. I posted some really cringy shit with my marathon yesterday. but listen, I had to do it. It's okay. As long as you know and acknowledge it. No, I mean, listen. And you don't use em dashes. It's a safe place for cringe.

1:19:20Negations followed by positives. Here's what I learned about my business from running the New York City Marathon. Top five things. Now, it's a great platform. What running the New York Marathon taught me about B2B sales. Absolutely. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just gotta keep going. Just gotta push through and fight. No, seriously. Do you have anything else you want to put on a note? Anything else? Oh, God. I don't know. No. No, you did it. You did it. Okay. We'll start the podcast now. Everything we just did was warm up. I was about to say. Wait, was that just a warm up? Yeah. That was just a warm up.

1:19:55Yeah. Now we start the show. You're loose. You're loose. I already said all my best stuff. Record twice. Post once. Yeah. It's like the guy that ran the New York City Marathon to warm up for the New York City Marathon. Yeah. We need two takes. Yeah. Two takes. Oh, you thought that was the first? That was the take? That's the secret to success in this business. You got a lot to learn about podcasts. Oh, God. My lighting's all wrong. My podcasting cadence is wrong. I know, I know. But the second one, you really let it out. You're loose and you got it. It's the David Fincher method of podcasts. Yeah, so take me back.

1:20:27Again, again, again, again. So you're the CEO of Collins. Take us back to the beginning here now. Thank you, Leo, and that's fun. Peace.