The Combo Combination: with Brennan McGrath and Kapono Chung

27:37Yeah, exactly. So in any event, I think that's kind of explains the like several years of flirting. I think it was just like an intrinsic caution to the whole thing being like, if we, if we make big mistakes, like, you know, it affects a fairly, a meaningful community of people. So how many people were on, you know, Capono's team when you guys kind of merged and how many people were on your team? We were, I think five or something. So you were pretty small. Yeah. I think we were like 15 or something if I had to guess. Okay. So you put it together and now you're a 20 person, you know, sort of a powerhouse.

28:10Yep. There's something like 20 people in New York. And then we've been setting up, it's kind of interesting. We've been setting up a pretty cool global approach to getting work done. I mean, I don't know how to describe it. They're not offices, but it's also not like a list of random names. Like we're sort of, we've got one person kind of spearheading this initiative at the office. And it's been going incredibly because it's not, we're not approaching it like, hey, we, oh my God, we have a panic project and we need to, you know, we're like, we're building relationships in other places, which is tracking out the kind of hours of the day that the office is able to work.

28:51It's, you know, probably goes without saying that there are financial implications to it, but it's, but it's been fantastic. So the group is growing. It's about 20 people in the States and probably another five to 10 elsewhere. Yeah. Global hubs. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's just like that, Kevin. Yeah. They got global hubs. Someone managing it, you know, internally. Just like, yeah. It's very big, but yeah. It's like empty bodegas in like three different cities. Yeah. Yeah. We're into exports and imports. Yeah. We're just, you know, we're a global hub. Yeah. So when you guys merged, how did you decide like to go with the name Combo?

29:28Yeah, that's a good question. Super good question. There was a lot of hemming and hawing, mostly from me. I didn't want it. I didn't want it. You what? I didn't want it at first. I was like, let's ditch it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Greg, one of our partners, is one of the most brilliant editors you'll ever meet. He's just like has a real capacity to cut through noise and just see the thing that you're working on. Does he do podcasts? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. asking for a friend yeah named kevin he um he was really insistent that the name uh was one it's just a memorable cool name like great to say looks great written down like the whole thing he and then further we were like we're like coming up with new names or squishing combo and various together and like awful kind of you know kind of bombo yeah yeah bombo bombo combase so we were trying every sort of stupid thing and greg's like hey look there's two companies we're talking about squishing together here one is extremely well known and one is totally invisible like if we're any good at this at all which one should we choose like oh yeah yeah good call good call let's go yeah yeah yeah capona's got a brand here and uh yeah exactly a routing number now that's that that's that's fascinating and yeah i mean you are combining uh two things so it wasn't like such a stretch.

30:53You're like, how is this possibly going to make sense? The whole thing's just been so beneficial. It's conceptually taught. You're just like, everything is like this plus this, plus this, you know, it's just about bringing things together. Got it. This is so fascinating for me because I think again of Combo as the design agency and of course Capono and the work there, but now it has become this other thing, which makes sense why this new website has a bit of a different feel and energy to it because it It is not just Capono doing cool brand identity work. It is now a global powerhouse with many hubs.

31:27Yeah, no, it's hubless. Endless hubs. So as far as the website goes, you guys are putting out sort of your point of view. You have white papers. What's your beef with nostalgia? I noticed that was one of the things that you guys put out there. I haven't read the white paper in a while, but I can riff on why we hate nostalgia. Why do you hate nostalgia? Go off. Yeah, yeah. Everyone's doing it. All the cool kids are doing it. Come on. It feels so good. This is my one negative card. I think the perspective on nostalgia is that it's like, maybe this connects a little bit to the process of mood boarding and everything else.

32:05Everything is a little bit about the past right now. Everything is about the past. And I feel like there's so much opportunity in the future. And in a weird way, the tools we have to use right now we're limiting our capacity to think about the future. Like, sorry, that sounds like, no, no, no, no. I agree. Yeah. I agree. It's, it's, so I think, um, the whole nostalgia thing really, I think it's just about like, if, if all future ideas have to be a combination of fetishized versions of the past, we're pretty fucked. We're like, we have to, somebody has to be like, Hey, listen, like my idea is not two things coming together.

32:43It's like something totally net new. Yeah. So I should probably read the nostalgia white paper to see if what I just read has anything to do with it. I read it today and I agree with you. It's just like a warm blanket. It is, yeah. It feels good because it feels familiar and you're like, I know this. I know. I've seen this before. I like this. And it's back. And there's something really wonderful about it. But I do think we've overused it. I think so. It feels like everything now is just something from the past sort of spruced up a little bit for today. Yeah, it's like, here's the reference we're referencing to get to our future reference.

33:19It's just, we have to do something. And I think in a way, this is the thing that's so exciting. You know, there's the endless banter around like AI and technology and all this stuff. I think this is where it gets exciting because it feels like we're being given a permission slip to be like, hey, let's try some really new stuff that doesn't, you know, really reflect anything from the past. Do you guys see the J.Crew work? the like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah what do you guys feel how do you feel about that one i do think it's like a little dubious yeah you know i didn't i don't think that they were very forthright about what was happening correct there so i think that that's probably the issue right now but i i feel like in the future if they were to release something like this it would be very exciting and people would be like oh it's ai it doesn't matter you know but i i say just take the pictures I mean that would be the best I think in 5-10 years this will just be so normalized exactly I don't think it's I don't think it's bad I don't think they were trying to do something awful I just think it wasn't disclosed and I feel like it just feels a little dirty to be like hey we are biting we're recreating something from the past for today using our own design language without um you know having to go out and do the work it just see it feels a little bit like uh in today's world like it's just a shortcut yeah but i feel like in the future it will that will you know won't feel quite as weird well it also probably won't make news either like yeah exactly the other thing that's gonna i i think is gonna be interesting to watch is that even though there's gonna be a lot more made i think really what the what we should be watching is like what cuts through like what really stands out there i think there's actually weirdly going to be less shown in the future where we make a lot more like right now this is kind of interesting salacious whatever because it's it you know people are trying to figure out like new ways of making things that are cheaper and you know referencing their own something something something whatever yeah i i think in the future that this that sort of stuff will be kind of thought of as like a nothing move and what we'll be really looking for and looking at is the stuff where people are using technology or their own human intelligence and creativity to like create something that no one's ever seen before even like the very nature of the the short take of the j crew stuff it's like they used past stuff and like current technology to make more of something you know it's like yeah it's not it doesn't sound like something that should really like catch much of our attention well i think it's you know as someone that was once uh on the brand side uh i i said this you know sort of as soon as ai started to really make things that seemed you know sort of passable you're like yeah their brands are gonna want to make things cheaper yeah yeah you just there's just no way around that Well, we're already there.

36:21I mean, we're already there. And we're already there. We're already there. And I think this is one of the, like, from an agency standpoint, this is something that needs to get a lot more attention. Like, the buying side has already made up their minds that, like, the technology will make things cheaper. And I believe that. That is 100 % true. On the selling side, we're like, well, wait a second. Hang on. Yeah, that is true. But that's like, we're not there yet. Like, we're all still learning these technologies. you guys aren't set up to buy more efficient work so i i i really do believe this has to be thought of more as like you know how like in politics they'll be like an infrastructure bill we've got to coordinate and then in 10 years it's going to be like this level of co2 emissions it's got to be more like that where we're like we're all on the same side we're in the on the commercial side of the creative you know world we want the same thing you want we want to be creating more and giving you the best price humanly possible but it is going to take a while and what's happening now I think which is really tragic is that the budgets have been cut in half, forcing the agencies to kind of scramble and be like, okay, well, we'll just like figure out a way to accommodate the ask.

37:29But then the buying side's frustrated because it's like kind of less than what they're after. And it's just like, Hey, look, it's just, we're talking about the savings for five years from now, but what, what, you know, what we ought to be doing is locking arms and being like this whole industry needs to advance. The tools are going to evolve. The tools have been evolving for the 20 years that I've been a professional creative. And it's like the things that we do here before AI were far advanced from the way that I had to do them when I was starting my career having to, you know, sort of, you know, we didn't have these mock-ups where things would just sort of magically pop into place and look amazing on a billboard.

38:04I had to fucking scale that shit and distort it. It would look kind of like it was facing the wrong way, you know? It's like these things are just, you know, it's obviously such super powered tools that it's hard for us to imagine that, you know, how much it's going to shift everything. But there's, you know, there's no going backwards. And I think it's going to help us visualize the future in new and exciting ways that I think once we get past this initial awkward phase of it where the foot is backwards on the J.Crew ad and you're like, why is that guy's leg facing the wrong way? like that's so crazy to me that was my big takeaway how did no one notice that all these weird glitches were happening and they were just like no we're putting that up there publish it, hit print let's go live with that it was like a Vans collab that's so crazy to me that no one thought on both teams there's gotta be so many people that reviewed that and was like nah this looks great it's edgy Yeah.

39:04Yeah. Yeah. It's like, uh, maybe that was the kids are putting their legs on backwards now. Yeah. Yeah. The shoes, they both go, uh, one direction when you sit down and kind of face backwards. But yeah, I mean, I, I don't know that again, I think in, in five years, 10 years, like when this is totally commonplace, like it just, it won't be crazy that J crew is putting out images that are inspired by J crew. No, exactly. Exactly. We're just living through these, like kind of first swings of the bat. Yeah. And creative people, rightfully so, are anxious and nervous and worried about this making their jobs disappear or prices coming down.

39:44And that's, those things are, are, are reason to be fearful. But if you, in my opinion, it's just like, if you use it to leverage it, to make, um, you know, sort of the future more interesting and to lean into not necessarily nostalgia, but sort of things that feel like pushing the boundaries of what's possible. It's also interesting. Like, I think anything pattern based, like I think brands, creativity in general will become really allergic to things that can be that look too obvious that are repeatable that are patterns yeah because i think in a kind of plagiaristic world where like you know the the technology is kind of scraping what's been made and reproducing new things i think left turns hard rights like those things are going to become really hot commodities but like and you see this in artists you see like you know uh artists coming out with andre 3000 andre yeah A hundred percent or Beyonce being like, you think you understand my songbook and you're wrong.

40:42Like I'm going to put out something that's just like totally different. And I think that sort of stuff where the makers of things are not like, oh, I'm just going to kind of keep putting my stamp on something expected. Sure. I think that's to be able to outmaneuver plagiarism is going to be like a big thing. Yeah, no, there's going to be a huge emphasis on original IP, I think, because I think everything just becomes sort of congealed into this sort of singular look and feel. And again, that's probably why it's so great to have this sort of new combo energy, right? Because you're able to sort of work in this very sort of culture-minded space, right?

41:23Yeah, for sure. And you're, you know, kind of bringing fresh ideas, thinking, and then you execute them. So how does that work? Like, so talk me through sort of like the clients and the projects that you guys are sort of working through at the moment or sort of like what you guys are looking for, because I do feel like there's a, at least from my perspective, like a combo, you know, I do think so much of your work is rooted in culture. Yeah. So how do you guys like, what, how do you, how do you describe that? What do you look for in sort of clients and sort of the work that you are doing now? The most fun projects for us are these turnarounds, these, these big turnarounds and stuff.

41:58So, I mean, we did, we kind of, you know, helped and Taylor with that turnaround just recently. Aldo is launching their turnaround, um, which we helped them with, uh, which was really fun to do because it's, it's in, that's where it's like, you know, you have a brand that had, that means something to someone and has memories of it, but they just haven't been able to connect with the new young folks of today. And that's really where it gets fun is like being like, how do we reinterpret your history to mean something and to have connection to the generation that's buying your shoes today? The Aldo stuff's incredible.

42:37It's coming out like right now, today. There's like a lot of press around it. Cool. And it's so cool because, you know, like, I mean, we all remember like prom and graduation and first interviews and stuff like that and it's like these sorts of companies like i mean i'm so psyched about seeing all the aldo stuff come out because it is really like in a world where the young people that people in their teens and high school and young adults are like kind of being like intercepted by screens left and right like it is so cool to get to to kind of reimagine what a company like aldo can be for like trying new things for like test driving the world so it's just it's just sick it's amazing yeah i saw a tiktok recently it was like some trend forecaster she's talking about like the top 20 like most purchased items uh for kids going back to school like college i was shocked it was like all mall brands it was like holster abracombi i was like what people are buying holster yeah that was what people were wearing when i went to prom you know and it's like now 2025 and people are buying like yeah abracombi cargo pants i was like i mean it's sick.

43:43It is kind of sick, but yeah, it is these brands that are sort of like, yeah, they're, they're, they, they come from the past, but they are found ways clearly to connect with these new TikTok and, and, and sort of teenagers. Your original question was like kind of how we, we approach work. I think, I think to kind of answer slightly to the side of that, we've started to notice that we kind of have this thing you'll spot in like a deck of ours when we're introducing ourselves to certain people. We'll be like, combo is smart and stupid. You know, we're like, we're like smart enough to unearth interesting insights that are like gonna, that are actually pretty spot on for audiences and kind of see something that's unexpected, but we're stupid enough to act on it.

44:25And there's that kind of relationship between like analytics and creativity. And then we've kind of also seen that our work sort of occupies another spectrum from like incredibly highly visible to totally invisible. And so like, I think that's the quad, those are the four quadrants that we're kind of working in is like smart and stupid, visible, invisible. And like visible work, the Aways, Say, Aldo, like these kind of really recognizable things where we're able to like apply great thinking, great creativity, but it's like out there in the world. And then there's all this invisible stuff. There's, you know, we work for Target, we work for Diageo.

45:03And this is stuff that's like really, really cool strategic and research-based work that's shaping the way that brands are taking, you know, coming to life. But, you know, we're contributing and the work, if there's a fingerprint on it, won't be seen for five years. You know, like we do a lot of interesting work way behind the scenes and, you know, design is deployed, but it's really the deliverables quite different. It's, you know, maybe org chart sort of stuff or portfolio analysis and like making recommendations on what groups get smushed together and what gets sunset and what brand, you know, where there's holes in their portfolio, but, you know, stuff like, stuff like that.

45:41It's, um, and so are you guys on every, like on all these projects, Kupana, are you sort of brought in to sort of, uh, you know, kind of work on some of these bigger sort of more structural strategy pieces, or is it more of the sort of like, yeah, above the line for outward facing visible type branding work? The partners are on every project, you know? So there's usually two partners or one partner per project at least. We have Nadia Leung, who's our design director, and she's across everything. She's unbelievable. She kind of helped start Combo, really. Oh, wow. She's been with us for a long time, since the beginning.

46:20Okay. And essentially it's like, wait, what was the question? It was about how the sort of - I was just trying to shout out Nadia. I was trying to get that. Shout out to Nadia. Just about sort of like the role of, you know, like this, this difference between a strategy shop mind and sort of like a creative shop where it's like, does, you know, it sounds like there's some projects where like it never gets to the sort of creative side of things. And, you know. So I think, I think, yes, there's, there's projects that only stay within research and strategy. Then there's the projects that go all the way through.

46:57Yeah. And those are the projects that we love. Yeah, of course. Those ones are where we get to affect and change every little detail and stuff. And really what we like to talk about or what we like to do is that we like to have designers and design folks in the strategy meetings and in the upfront stuff. And then we have strategists all the way through to execution to make sure that everything looks good and everything is actually meaning what it's supposed to mean. And so for some of these, you have brand identity projects, but now it sounds like you're also doing some creative, what I would call marketing type projects.

47:34So do you guys offer those services where you're not doing strategy or not doing identity work, but just really kind of doing campaign marketing? Sure. Yeah. To Capono's point, I think it's always the dream scenario to be brought in early and staying all the way through. but like, you know, obviously that doesn't, uh, we don't get to decide. So yeah, there's, there's times where it's strictly research. There's times where it's strictly strategy or, or product development or something. And then there's times when it's just branding and there's time when it's just creative for, for sure. More often than not, it's like two or three of those kind of clump together.

48:09And you know, that we just try to kind of build teams of really talented generalists who can kind of move, um, from phase to phase while keeping everything intact. We're like, I think we're super concerned about like jagged handoffs where, you know, like there's a really well-baked strategy and then it's handed to designers who have no, you know, relationship with it. So. Jagged handoffs is a really bad name. Yeah, totally. Jug, jug, jug, jug. I'm going to see jagged handoffs. They're playing in Bushwick. I think they're one of my favorite new up and coming bands. Yeah. I mean, I think this is like kind of the dream component, right?

48:46Where you get to be able to sort of like have this like powerhouse sort of side of combo that you never had before in many ways, right? Because you were a small team doing identity work. I imagine there was like, you know, there was strategy, of course, or strategic thinking that led to the work. But now you have like this like super powerhouse strategy side of things. And you're like, you're able to kind of, yeah, offer quite a range of, yeah. The tricky thing is in our experience seems to be kind of communicating that clearly because we see it as this really linear kind of logical process. You know, we see it as kind of like all one thing.

49:24Like first you learn about audience and you like understand what they need and you come up with bespoke solutions and da-da-da-da. It's crazy to me how bad we are at explaining our other capabilities. Like we work with Target and truly I think this is nobody's fault but ours. We like, I think there's plenty of our clients who do not know there's like a design and creative component. I mean, I'm probably being a bit dramatic for the sake of exploration. Yeah, for sure, yeah. But no, it's like, I think one of the hard parts about going from being like a small agency to a whatever's above small, like kind of medium or large, is if I dropped off the name of some massive organization, just assume there's all these other things that you can kind of like access when you want to or need to.

50:09I think the way we get introduced is often the way we're understood. And that can be like a real challenge. That can be a real challenge for growth. Do you guys have aspirations to get huge? Do you guys want to be a hundred person global combo worldwide? Sure. Yeah, that doesn't sound huge to me. Yes, that's an ambition of ours. Great. I just think that we have so many things we want to be doing, so many places we want to be doing them. And so, yeah, that's for sure on the radar. Cool. Cool. Yeah. I mean, I think that's clearly, it seems like this is, uh, you know, in many ways set up to sort of scale and to, to grow and to become this thing, but it sounds like you're also doing it quite thoughtfully in that.

50:56Yeah. I can't tell if it's thoughtful or cautious, but we're like, but it's one of those. Yeah. Yeah. But that's good though. Cause I mean, we have a lot of founders on and we have a lot of people that have agencies and it's one of my favorite questions to ask is like, what size are you and what size do you want to be? What do you think? What's the answer to the same question? Are we aligned? Are we revealing that we're not aligned? Do you guys want to work this out on the pod? Hard stop. Yeah, Capano, how big do you want to get? Do you want to or do you want to stay small? My ambition has always been to take over the world.

51:29He's been taking over. I like that even better. I'm glad we figured this out. What's the third partner's name? Do you want to bring him in? There's Greg Mattson. Just to make sure he's aligned as well. But no, I mean, I think that's, it's important though, because the agencies, to your point about like people not knowing a hundred percent, like how to hire whatever, like there, there's so many different types and varieties of, you know, types of businesses, right? Like one of my very close friends I was with this week, uh, runs JKR, right? 130 person studio. And I talked to him and center is nine people.

52:04Technically we're both design companies, but like, you know, we're, totally different companies like yeah yeah the the structure the we both offer design services but but we're not the same company it's like the difference between a sort of you know a a sort of a restaurant on the corner and sort of a taco bell you know it's just like there's such different you know we both are we have food that we sell at the same but the business is completely different No, it's totally true. I know the vocabulary associated with our industry can really work against us. I think we make it more complicated than it needs to be sometimes.

52:45And I think we're all responsible for that. But I think it's also partly because of this manifestos and beliefs and purposes and principles. I think it's because we want to be taken seriously. Because what we do in many ways, maybe for years, wasn't taken seriously. This is my belief. Yeah, maybe. So we've made it this overly complicated thing where we have these grids and charts and things about transformation and services and how we do it. But at the end of the day, you don't necessarily always – you just want to get your teeth cleaned. And you're like, oh, is this the place? You're like, yes, I'm a dentist.

53:23This is what we do. We do check-ups. We do roofing and outs. And we'll send you on your way looking good. No, the sales process is insane. And like half the time, it's really difficult to spot whether you're talking to someone who is interested in the total process and can be persuaded to see something as larger or more interesting. Or if you're working, you're talking to somebody who's like, listen, we're not talking about money yet, but I've got a fixed amount. I got to know if I can work with you guys or not. You know what I mean? Those are like really, really different. They're really different paths.

53:51And you kind of always like everybody you meet, you're kind of standing at that intersection being like, which way is this going to go? As we were talking, I was thinking about someone that comes in and they're just like, I need a logo for my bar. And you're like, okay, here's the combo. I hope you've got some time. This is going to take 45 minutes to explain. Yeah, exactly. And they're just like, yeah, but what about the napkins? Yeah, we do napkins. It's like after 55 minutes, it's like, sure, we do napkins. Yeah, yeah, we could do that. And it's going to be really expensive. Like, oh, yeah, I got 6K.

54:23Is that going to work? And you're like, okay, we got to go. Thank you. but uh exactly but i think there's different you know again you need both of those things because you are going to get your all those you're going to get your giant you know pernodes or your targets of the world that like aren't they need that structure that rigor that giant and they're built for that and they're built for it and they're not you know they're not just looking for uh yeah we can do you know creative services like or design yeah as as you need that sort of um to back it up. Yeah. You know, not to kill everybody with spectrums on which to organize things, but we've, I don't know if this is like, no, our listeners love spectrums.

55:01Okay. So close your eyes and imagine a spectrum. Yeah. So are we kind of, it's a diagram. It's a diagram of a series of spectrums. We, we, uh, I don't know if this is like total gospel or not, but we have a tendency there's, there seems to be two altitudes that really like our portfolio can kind of be shuffled into there's like massive, you know, fortune 50 sorts of organizations. And then there's these like entrance of one sort or another brand new founders or young companies, whatever. And for a long time, we were like, sort of like, Oh, I don't know. I don't know why that is. And now I think, now I think it's really interesting because I think what we're able to do without ever betraying any sort of like industry knowledge or whatever is to help the young entrance learn how to act big, you know, how to like think like a larger organization who's ready to take over the world.

55:52And we're helping the big companies think as aggressively about their own obsolescence as the competitors are, as the young entrants are, you know? So that kind of weird flywheel ends up being really kind of cool. And it dovetails a little bit together with like how you, like, whether a group is built to accept complicated processes or whether they just need a napkin, you know, like, so for us, it's, it's also trying to kind of like understand whether, which altitude they sort of are at, whether they know it or not. Yeah. And I imagine the work feeds off of each other. Right. And I always say that about center, you know, sort of our sort of, you know, sort of simplified version is like, we help startups become icons.

56:31We help icons behave a little bit more like startups, which is just like, they both need each other because target probably wants to be a little bit like Rocco's. You know what I mean? And it's like, but there's such different businesses and like Rocco's is just the coolest place to go watch a Nick playoff game. No, 100%. But Target has this giant organization, these crazy sort of systems and things, but they both kind of, yeah, you're kind of putting both ends of the spectrum. Can I tell a little story about a Target thing for a second? Only if it's going to be within 30 to 40 minutes. Just kidding.

57:06Okay, so yeah. Okay, I've got 40 minutes to get through this. Okay, so this is a good example of, a moment where a big organization wanted to kind of change the way they are. And I think it was quite successful. A number of years back, we got hired by Target to help them figure out how to localize things. They like kind of knew intuitively that localization was something they should be dealing with, but they are like a hyper-structured brand, right? Like everything's like red, white, gray, like, you know, there's rules around the brand. What we ended up helping them do was we We found a test market, South Florida, which is very, very diverse.

57:45You know, like you've got Boca Raton is quite different than Miami is quite different than, you know, 50 other locations in South Florida. And so we helped them create essentially a localization program that didn't appear to be one. We ended up building this kind of store for the stores, which was this binder of pre-approved localization initiatives. And we gave them each of the stores, one of these binders on a budget that said like you got, I don't know, can't remember what it was, 50K or something. Pick some activities out of these things and localize your stores. But they're all brand vetted.

58:16They're like ways for this to still feel like Target, but for you to localize. And so a quick example is like in Boca, you know, everybody's like quite old. So, you know, we may have a red Target shirt that says heavy lifter. Dink, dink, dink. Excuse me, young man. Can you help me get this into the back of my car? Amazing. Target initiative vetted feels very Boca. But then like another thing we came to realize through research was down by Miami, people are hopping on planes to head back to South America with their bags full. So we were like, here's an initiative. You just put like scales right by the register so people can keep their bags under 50 pounds.

58:52Boom. Target initiative, you know, vetted from the top. But this is a way in which, you know, a big group that has, you know, frankly, a lot of internal momentum from a brand standpoint can modernize, can change the way that they're working. to do something that's cool and scrappy. Like that's pretty rad to have like a, like multiple locations being able to act autonomously, not something that was very, very easy, but through creative packaging and beautiful design, this became something that was like piloted and, you know, did pretty well. It's a pretty cool initiative. That's fascinating. And I do think like the bigger brands are trying to become more localized.

59:25I think so. Smaller and I think just more nimble. I mean, localization is like one of a trillion things that they probably would benefit from learning how to do, but you know, yeah. I always say that Nike does this better than anyone else. Like they do the sort of feed the sort of big global world cup chess beating kind of thing. But let the line out on a lot of other things. And then all of a sudden you're just like, they have this like local event and like, you know, Lower East Side where there's like, they're making t-shirts. And you're like, Whoa, how do they do both of these things at the same time?

59:51And it's like, yeah, you kind of have to. And I feel like the bigger organizations, like that's so hard for them to do. Like speaking, you know, as someone that worked at Coke for a long time, it's like, yeah, yeah. Really struggle to do the sort of like, They could do the big Anthem A Christmas commercial, but then to do the sort of localized, cultural, small thing is really tough. Because you have to be nimble and you have to be able to lose a little bit of control. And it sounds like that's what they were willing to do. I feel like Target has done a great job. And again, I've never worked for them.

1:00:25I have no connection to them whatsoever. But it's just like they found a way to make... I went to a Target recently and I was shocked. Like, I guess I hadn't been in one in a while. It's just like, felt like all the cool brands from the internet were there. I just was like, whoa, this is like a lot more shoppy shop than I was expecting. Obviously, I only, I leave Greenpoint once every like quarter. That's my, you know, my quota. I have to get out. But, you know, I was pretty surprised that a Target was, yeah, sort of had its finger on the pulse. Even at the sort of scale of like the big box, not the sort of like.

1:01:00I mean, but that kind of calls into question. like, like culture and coolness is kind of always on the move. Like that actually probably not to say, obviously we work for Target and love them a great deal, but it's, it's probably that probably is in a weird way, illustrative of something else that's shifting, which is to say, if you can know and access and source all these things, then you know what I mean? Like, that's kind of surprising to hear that that was your takeaway that like some of the brand, the most coveted brands, you know, are like sitting there in Target, either they're doing phenomenally or culture is kind of like trying to out is somewhere else right now.

1:01:33Yeah. I just think people like, you know, in many ways, like they, they need to curate and they need to sort of be, you know, associated with some of these cooler, the chill, the chill houses of the world, right. Where you're like chill house, like target needs chill house as much as chill house needs target. Yeah. Right. Right. Yes. It's such a cool thing. You're living the flywheel. You're living. That's right. I'm part of the combo. I'm in the wheel. But yeah, I mean, thank you guys for coming here. Before we're out of here, anything you guys want to share, want to talk about, anything that we didn't get a chance to talk about?

1:02:07I mean, I think I'm still on this employee handbook just kind of thinking about sort of all the things that you guys are like really putting an emphasis on the people. Yeah. And helping them. Because, Kupono, I know you've done this throughout your career. I feel like you've always been a part of like AIGA organizations where you're like, I want to help the next generation of Kaponos and people that, you know, how can I, you know, just pay forward? I think, yeah. I mean, for it's, that's always kind of been my mission. I mean, I had my father as a mentor and I knew about design when I was like 12, you know, and really, really, really understood it at a really young age.

1:02:50and knew what a logo was and saw my dad drawing logos and stuff. And I think that was always a goal of mine, was to be able to make sure that people know what design is. I think one thing that I noticed while I was going into big, while I was going into mother, was just that the industry is primarily white male. That's the hardest thing about this industry. And it's because it's really closed off. And it's because the pipelines, the pipeline is kind of like these really expensive private schools. Yeah. RISD, Pratt, I went to Pratt, he went to RISD. So that means that there's talent out there that can't afford these schools that nobody's tapping into.

1:03:36And so I think that's really what we're always trying to do. We're always trying to figure out if we can open up the creative industry to young BIPOC youth. And it's hard because a lot of the times the training that people get will be with our group. And that'll be kind of like the first time that they're being trained. Well, it sounds like also you can only help and mentor so many people. But now that Combo is going nuclear and we're going global worldwide domination, you can, you know, hopefully, uh, higher and bring in more people into the combo world, which I think is helpful. I often, you know, think like that is one of the advantages of scaling or having the sizes, like, again, giving that gift to more people and trying to help develop more people, um, and, and give them the opportunity to learn from you guys, to be a part of it.

1:04:33And, and, and to, yeah, to your point, just like be exposed to it. Yeah. Cause it's hard, That's the hope. That's the hope. Like the best way to become a designer is to be a designer, right? Exactly. It's like you just have to be in it. And once you're in it, then you're like, okay, I see how this all works and I can do it. But sometimes it's hard to get that experience, the first job. Yes. Or to even go into college. And the training's hard. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, being a mentor is really hard. That takes a lot of time too, right? Yeah, no. You can only mentor so many people and you can only, you know, give people so much of your time, but it's so important.

1:05:09And I think to give people, especially BIPOC, people that don't have those schooling and sort of can't, like, those opportunities are, there's still a lot of work to be done there. Well, I mean, add to it, I think this is like the, this is probably goes without saying, but I think the way a lot of the AI technology is in the moment is actually making it harder for people to get into the industry. So add Kaponos observations to the fact that there are, it's, it's the, the hill's getting a bit steeper too, because not to say that this is a policy of ours, but truly like we used to hire junior researchers and stuff because we just needed people like getting a bunch of information together.

1:05:53And frankly, like, you know, technology is fast tracking that. And, and as downward pressure comes from the buying side, it's like, you're like, okay, well, I guess that's going to be a place where we can become more efficient, but that's, that's fucked. I mean, we, it's, it's going to be a real, um, it's gotta be a real effort from all people who can control hiring to like really be pretty intentional about who you're bringing in. Like Kipono is saying, it's like, it's going up in importance dramatically. And it's hard. And I, as someone that has mentored and, and, uh, with SVA and it's like, you feel the anxiety that they feel because they know that they're getting into this industry and maybe they're exposed to it earlier.

1:06:34Cause you know, I think about that a lot too. Like I wasn't exposed to design until I was like 20 years older. I was in college and I was like, Oh, what is this graphic design thing? It was like, I was already studying art. like and then i was like what sort of uh what avenue do i want to go down i was like oh graphic design so it's like people are finding it earlier which is great but then it's like these the competition uh because these kids are also you know they have better tools and they're just like yeah and there's not that many seats right like i do think that a lot where it's like they're like i want to work at one of these 10 design studios i was like okay add up all the people that work at those companies, there's what, 600 seats, maybe 500 seats.

1:07:16And there's thousands of designers out there. So it's hard to, it's harder and harder to get these gigs. And you, to your point about sort of being in the position of hiring, it's like, it's critical and important that we give those opportunities to the right people. I'm curious, Capone, what you think about this? In my mind, you used to like five, 10 years ago, you used to sit down and look almost exclusively at somebody's portfolio, the visual stuff that they made as a way of gauging whether they'd be good employees. I kind of weirdly feel like that has changed quite a bit now because everyone has access to every idea that's ever been made and all these tools that you would have typically waited until you were employed to have access to.

1:07:57Now people are cranking up portfolios that are just amazing, just amazing. But the people who we love having hired and stick around forever are the people who are like, I got that. I'll take it off your plate. I'm, you know, I know just the idea for this. They're like very, the human aspect becomes increasingly more important. I mean, do you agree with that? That portfolio is like less important? Portfolio gets you in like, we'll get a call back. Yeah. I'd say. Yeah. But I definitely think it's about more and more about just initiative. Yeah. Just being like, I'm going to do this thing and then just going to go for it and stuff.

1:08:34and it's like, yeah. No, I completely agree. And I love when our podcast actually is helpful for people. I know you guys were kidding about, or I was kidding about how our podcast doesn't do anything for anyone. But no, that's actually great advice because I think about that quite a bit as well, where it's like, you got to have the book to get you in the door. That is table stakes. And I do think you're right, Brennan, that because of the tools, it's a lot easier. I see better books than ever before people coming in with amazing stuff but then when you're sitting in a room it that book matters less and yeah the person and like the attitude the ambition the intention the the the soft skills like that's really what it comes down to and a lot of it is like yeah like am i gonna go do i want do i do i have the ambition to be a you know a great designer or like help out to your point about like it's so much about that and being hungry because i do find that sometimes you meet these young people.

1:09:33Um, and, and this is just trying to help is like, they feel like they're entitled to potentially a position or entitled to an opportunity, but it's like, you still got to pay your dues and you still got to put in the work and you still got to like earn it in a way that's not about like, I, yeah, paying the dues sounds bad, but it's more just like about like wanting and, and, and working and willing to work, do the work to, to, to, to, to learn. and to become... Yeah. At our office, it is astonishing. You have some of the most talented, hardworking people you've ever met and it'll be like seven o 'clock at night and you see people like doing dishes and stuff.

1:10:09And I'm like, boom, that's the thing. That's it right there. And Kevin does the dishes. I do the dishes. I do the dishes. We all do the dishes. No, but I do think that's the point is like it's the folks who are like just so willing to do whatever it takes to get work done into and i think like to make a place that to contribute yeah to contribute and make a place that wants to hold itself together like yeah there's a lot of other things beyond work that makes a healthy work environment beautiful we all got to carry the logs you know and uh that's it and thank you guys again i i learned so much about combo today honestly i i i came in here you know kind of unfamiliar i obviously very familiar with the work, but not familiar with the sort of behind the scenes.

1:10:58And I think that's what's so great about the, you know, having you guys here and doing the show. It's like, I get to learn and, and, and find out behind the scenes. I do also think it's been really great. Thank you for being less mysterious. Uh, because, because I think there was so much mystery in the, in, in the agency before. And I like the mystery because you're like, who are these guys? You know? And it's like, the work is so good, but it's like, I don't know shit about them. It's like, now I'm like, okay, now I know some of the philosophies and now I know some of the sort of, so thank you for, uh, you know, sort of coming out of the height from hiding and being, uh, yeah.

1:11:33We love, we love being here and we, and we get to, uh, we have to arm wrestle for who gets the C in the circle. Listen, um, we'll handle that off, off, off, off, off Mike. Listen, there's room for two C's in circles here. Ours is a bit wide and yours. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we want to stretch ours out. That's why we got it. What if we went vertical? Ryan, our lawyer, are you listening to this show? You'll be hearing from me after. No, we own the copyright symbol. That's absolutely ours. Sure you do. Sure you do. We got that copyright and trademarked and registered for the copyright symbol. Thank you, guys.

1:12:15You're the best.