The Moment of Tension: with Jessica Dimcevski

16:12Jessica Dimcevski:But you don't need to feel guilty about it. Yes, yes, we love naming. We admired it because we were recently doing a naming project. We brought it up on the big TV behind me during a meeting, and we were very much admiring the name and how good it was. I personally I mean the whole thing's great but you know I'm a copywriter so I'm a you know great the name's fire great yeah we work with an incredible namer his name is Patrick shout him out way to go Patrick yes is he Australian? no he's American he lives in Chicago okay but I love like for us really naming is the start of a visual and verbal brand world let's talk about naming yeah cool because I hate it and I think it's this is Thomas's quote but it's the most important least important part of branding and it no one will ever think about it as much as the people that do it um and when i actually started center i knew i wanted to build brands from scratch and i had never even considered that people would come without a name that's how like wow yeah you just thought about the visual i just thought about visual world building yeah the final physical product or whatever you're going to put out there i just wasn't um considering all the offerings as a business that we would need to deploy.

17:23Naming was just something I hadn't considered. And now, of course, the first product came to us and was like, hey, we don't have a name. Do you guys do naming? And then I really quickly, my brain was like, of course we do. Yeah, of course we're a brand company.

17:39Jessica Dimcevski:We don't do naming? Of course we do. And that is how naming became part of our offering. I can highly relate. When I was at Red Scout, I remember we needed to come up with a name and no one could nail it. And so they literally just got like 20 people in a room and we'd just brainstorm and I couldn't even think of one name to put up on the board I was like this is so hard yeah to think of something that's not so obvious and doesn't already exist yeah in my experience with naming um you know after like maybe round round four and uh round four and you know I was maybe a little bit isolated in the process I didn't really have 20 people or any support but uh after round four it becomes a fucking nightmare yeah no you know everyone's got an opinion and uh nobody's got any names so they do they do but It's all in how you present it as well.

18:23Jessica Dimcevski:Like a name on its own on a page. You need to actually show them a bit of the brand world, which is how we go about it. Yes. Okay. Yes, yes. Right from the jump? Yeah. And it's not necessarily the visual identity and the graphics, but the full brand world. So what photography could look like, what we could potentially post on social, a little bit of everything. And then we keep creative direction separate purely for the visual identity. But you've got to sell the world for the name to make sense. And they're like, okay, I want to build my new creatine daily gummy brand. It's called Super Mush or it's not called Super Mush.

18:55It doesn't have a name. And then you're coming to them or do you do, sorry to get nerdy here for the listeners, but maybe they'll find us enjoyable. This is why we're here.

19:02Jessica Dimcevski:Yeah. Is naming the first thing that you do or is it sort of? It depends where, how much research they've done prior. So first of all, I don't love starting a brand with no research or strategy or insights. Like we have to speak to people, even if that's the founder or a bunch of customers or potential customers. There has to be some form of insight and problem that we're solving here. Got it. Yeah. Like, why does the brand? Why does this exist? We need to make sure that we can define that and who we're speaking to. Got it. And so that typically stakeholder interview is a magic. Exactly. Sometimes the founder or the marketing director has already created that and they give that to us and there's a bit of a download session.

19:34Okay.

19:35Jessica Dimcevski:Cool. After that, we know who we're speaking to. We know what we stand for. Let's start naming. So we usually send out a questionnaire or we can do it in real time with a workshop. Depends how many stakeholders there are. we ask them a bunch of questions and that'll help to find the territories that the brand is going to live in. Sorry, the names that we're going to present back. Now that we've got our territories, we come back to them. Usually there's anywhere between three to ten names that we would love. But then they also get access to an appendix of hundreds of names that we said no to. And we green light, amber light them so they can see which ones.

20:08Jessica Dimcevski:Yeah, like amber is like a maybe. There could be something here. Sorry, I got thrown off by amber. Oh, yeah. A form of orange. Yellow? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Our stop signs, they have green, yellow, and red. Amber? We say amber. Yeah. Sorry. Go back to it. I got to strike. You get it. The traffic light system. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. I'm so deeply American. Yeah. I was so sorry. Okay. There'll be plenty more. There'll be plenty more. What do the stop signs look like in Australia? Amber, sort of violet? Green, red, purple. Oh, wow. Okay, beautiful. There's a purple color in there. Yeah. There's cobalt, amber, and...

20:43Yeah.

20:44Jessica Dimcevski:I don't know. Yeah. Okay, cool. Sorry. Continue. Cool. So then we'll pull out our favorite names and we'll present them with an image in the background that speaks to the ambition of the name. They'll be, I don't like calling it a tagline, a strapline. It's really a line that, you know, they can change it, but it helps give some context around the name. And it also gives them a taste of what the verbal identity could be. Because the name is really what's going to help you define what you can and can't talk about in a meaningful way. Super mush. Feel super. Create mush. that could have been that could have been it fling uh you know sort of your afternoon uh delight no strings attached no strings is that part of the name yeah yeah no so flings and then it was like yeah no strings attached oh it's a sexual innuendo sorry correct oh sorry i didn't get it immediately the layers the layers are there wow i'm waking up here it's a nice automata yeah yeah yeah so that was part of the name and the thing exactly exactly and we'll always look at URLs, social handles, and we do like a quick confidence check on trademarking.

21:45Jessica Dimcevski:Cool. So we don't have to do four rounds. So this isn't that, sorry, I was picturing sort of like a world building and sort of like a much more sort of like designed world, but that's really much later. Yeah. Well, it is, but those will also be sometimes accompanied by, let's say, a mood board of some kind, which can speak to, if it's a name that's a little bit abstract and we really need to show what the whole brand world could look like for it to make sense. that's when we'll kind of bring in mood boards. Got it. Yeah. Cool. I mean, I think this is helpful for people. We actually, in my class at SVA, just did naming last night.

22:16And so we're talking about sort of the process. And typically, we don't sort of present names with visuals in the first round. Typically, we sort of like save that for like getting a name that maybe they like over the hump in sort of like the third round. But as Kevin said, round four is really where everyone starts to lose their goddamn mind. And it will, you know, sort of use any means possible to get someone to approve a name. But Flings is a great name.

22:40Jessica Dimcevski:Thank you. And we make sure that people realize like this is not – the images that are here are not necessarily going to end up in your final brand. It is just to start to share the world that we could live in with this brand. But the details of the actual design comes later once they pick a name. Cool. And so Flings kind of hits the market and is it only – Is it based – was it sort of based here in America? Yeah, yep. It's in the US and Canada. Okay, cool. And so that sort of, so, so blur is sort of off to the races because you guys have, have a CPG kind of package. Yes. Yes. We have got a fair few inquiries.

23:14Jessica Dimcevski:Actually, that's also how Yes Apples found us. Which we got to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. So yes. This is Yes to Apples. A great name also. We didn't do the name for that one. Okay. It was a brand refresh. Okay. Talk to us about Apples because we love Apples here on the program. and this is a project that just came out. Yeah, a couple of weeks ago. I feel like it's been getting around on the websites and the design blogs and the internet. It was on the creative review yesterday. Yeah, so congrats. It's a beautiful project. Thank you. It's really fun and I love branded apples. I love the fact that like produce is now getting a little bit of a sort of brand love.

23:56And this is a bit of a trend that I've noticed but I think this is probably the best one that I've seen. I'm trying to think of others that I've seen. Yeah, yeah, I mean it. Like I'm trying to think of like other examples.

24:09Jessica Dimcevski:There's Driscoll's for blueberries. Yeah, but that's like - There's Cuties for mandarins. I mean, Cuties, so what a great name. I just feel like a cutie whenever I'm eating one. But talk about, yes, Apple. So when they come in, they're from New York, family run sort of orchards. Yes, exactly. And they're like, hey, Jess, we're here with our amazing apples. How long have they been in business and selling apples prior to this brand work? So they originally started selling just private labels. They represent a bunch of family-run orchards in upstate New York. I think it's been a few decades. It is still a family-run business.

24:45Jessica Dimcevski:We worked mostly with Kari, the founder, as well as Tennelly there. And it was really a dream project that came through the door. It's very rare that you – well, firstly, I know we've got Driscolls and Cuties, and there are a few produce brands out there, but for Apple specifically, there was really only like one other brand and there isn't really a brand that comes to mind when you think of Apple's in America. People think of Washington State. They have a great reputation, but it's rare to find, to get an inbound lead for a category that doesn't really have brand that exists in it. So we could actually set the bar for how brand shows up in the Apple category.

25:18Jessica Dimcevski:So we could really go wild. We didn't really have to, yeah. Compete with another big apple. Yeah, exactly. Well, we really lent into - Without a big apple. Correct, but we lent into that. Did you? Well, look, Washington State apples, they have a great rep, which to us when we were doing our research, like this is kind of ironic, like the best of the best kind of comes out of New York. Why are we - Facts. Yes. Yeah. If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. That's what I always say. Exactly. Like, why can't we lean into that? New York's got a great apple reputation as well. Yes. They've got a really big orchard, tons of species of apples in Geneva.

25:55Jessica Dimcevski:Yeah. There's lots of different varieties. That was actually another part of the brand challenge as well. People have their go-to apple, like you're a pink lady person or you're like a Granny Smith or an Evercrisp. There are so many now. And I think people think of the brand names or the variety names rather than the brands that they're purchasing from. So we wanted to make it easier at shelf for you to explore and choose other options. so actually calling out the different flavor profiles of the apples on the front of pack and also what they're good for you know if you're going to cook this apple or if you're going to have it in a salad and suggesting which apples are best for what occasion nice interesting teach us about apples so which ones like because yeah we can also what are your favorite what are your mount rushmore uh four favorite apples i love a pink lady although we did have a spelling error at one point and calls it a punk lady wow that's like that's for me i was like i'm i think pink ladies are the best of tasting apples i agree yeah i agree yeah fun facts about apples one apple almost has as much water as a glass of water so you could literally take it to hydrate yourself so really new york marathon they were giving out a bunch of apples there i ran it i don't know did you eat an apple never never forget everyone did you get a yes apple no i was just trying to stay alive out there you know i don't it could have helped yeah no it could have helped i needed it i needed everything um i was willing to try anything towards the end it was just like whatever people were handing out so yeah someone should have given me an apple but yeah yeah that's interesting a lot of water yeah exactly i think people like and also you can take it anywhere with you like sure we can fling one of these in a bag and take it with us but apples like they've been in your lunchbox forever there are already so many associations that people have with apples but also that's kind of what makes it a bit of a sleepy category like they've been around all the time like what makes them exciting that's what we wanted to do we wanted to wake up this category and also make them delicious again if we can encourage people to have more apples delicious again yes i mean i think apples are you know it's funny because like in some ways they don't need branding no they're perfectly packaged yeah they're but we need to remind people about them where they come from people that they forget about apples yes apples don't get enough love i think No, not enough airtime.

28:06As a fruit. Because I think, I mean, fruit is fucking amazing. Like there's so many fucking great fruits. Sorry.

28:12Jessica Dimcevski:Mangoes, you tend to love. Mangoes, one of the great fruits. Bananas, passion fruit. But apples, I kind of feel like, yeah, overlooked sometimes. Agree. And that's exactly, that's why we needed to give them a bit of branding. Did they have the name Yes? They already had Yes Apples. We did try to rename them just based on research. It was a bit difficult to put into a sentence, as you can imagine, as a copywriter. Like, okay, we're saying yes a lot. It's a little hard to own. Yeah, and we're saying apples a lot. Like, especially as an Apple brand, we need to say the word apple so much. It's quite obvious.

28:43Jessica Dimcevski:And there's probably going to be already images of apples. Like, it's a lot. We tried to rename it. But at the same time, after doing a bit of research and testing it with people, as well as buyers, there was already a bit of brand equity built around yes apples, which we didn't want to lose. Especially for retailers as well. So we did speak to both buyers and customers during the process. Buyers are a huge part of this. We want it to be in as many retailers as possible. So we're kind of speaking to them just as much as we're speaking to the customers. So it's D to C as well as B to B. Yeah, that makes sense.

29:12Yeah. I like a Honeycrisp. I think that's another solid apple in terms of my favorites. I mean, I think green, right? What is it? Granny Smith, right? Yes. Is that the technical term?

29:24Jessica Dimcevski:Yep, yep. I think that's probably the most consumed apple in my life, I would say. Me too. It's nice and tangy. It goes with everything. Peanut butter specifically is sort of the go-to snack. But it's tough. Kevin, where do you stand on apples? Let's talk about apples. I love apples. Okay. I probably don't eat enough apples. Yeah, it's because they don't have enough branding. Now, finally, you can be reminded of it. That was actually a big part of the exercise as well, was coming up with different packaging innovations and where can apples show up. Where can apples show up? Yes. Well, we need to be eating more of them.

30:01Jessica Dimcevski:And they're usually tucked away in the produce section of the supermarket, whereas we actually created a package that could place them in the drink aisle. Wow. Because they're almost as much as a glass of water. They can hydrate you. So instead of reaching for a can, you can actually reach for an apple. That's a good positioning idea. I was like, okay, for hydrating. Retailers are excited about it, but you've really got to get the buyers on board because you're putting a product into the fridge, which is limited space. Yeah. I like when a product is used. Like, speaking of the marathon, nerds clusters became like a sort of a trend because they have a lot of carbs in them.

30:35And so instead of those like goopy glues that you eat and they make you want to throw up and eating like a salted caramel. They're like, this is pretty much the same macros. Yeah. It's pretty much the same. So runners just figure it out. out there like I would much rather have fucking nerds clusters than salted caramel goo in the 90 degree heat while I'm out there running. And so apples feels like, yeah, maybe they just need some better PR, you know, or a little bit better positioning. And so we gotta get the people hydrated. Cause I think of watermelon a lot. Like when I go on a run, I'll think about, I'll like get some watermelon.

31:09I'm like, oh, this feels really good. Very hydrating, but not always apples. And I never think to get an apple.

31:15Jessica Dimcevski:yes that's because it's a category that's sleeping we had to re-energize it again i like that these apples have just been sleeping at the orchard how hard was it to resist like big apple new york like kind of stuff that maybe look it made its way in because we did we wanted to be proud of where we come from and again we're compared to washington apples a fair bit and retailers did want us to speak to new york and where it comes from so it was an important piece as part of the verbal identity. It's definitely in there. But also, again, just educating people on which apple is to be used for which occasion and trying to get them – giving each variety it's almost its own personality.

31:53Jessica Dimcevski:So each variety has its own colourway, gala apples, you know, I've got the yellow colourway. You can easily distinguish between them at shelf. But also if you're not sure which apple you should buy or if you're – we wanted to tempt you to try other apples, that element of discovery at shelf. so actually saying like we're crisp and taggy good for salads, good for savory dishes calling it out to try and help you explore another flavor There's some apples that I think we need to just like kind of cut from the list here. Which ones? There's so many. I know, there is a lot Yeah, red delicious, get that out of here Yeah, like there's too many There are dusty ones.

32:27I think that

32:28Jessica Dimcevski:That doesn't help, that doesn't help There are so many varieties that we need to represent There's not 25 different types of bananas There's not, you know, again, there's one type of mango. There's too many apples. That's my sort of, that's the problem, I think, with the category. Crossing the genetics makes for a stronger apple. More resilient. More resilient. Yeah, but we can cut down to top five. I agree. I agree. I agree. But as a business and different parts of America, I purchase different apples. There's no way that people are buying like Cortland apples at large. Are they? I didn't get the sales results on that.

33:04Jessica Dimcevski:Oh, that's a great question. it's like what apples pink lady was definitely up yeah of course yes yeah yeah but look we that wasn't a part of the scope we weren't allowed to just cut cut varieties of apples yeah we had to make each of them stand out for what they're great great for stand out but then sort of survivor mode like sort of one should get voted off each week and we can kind of cut down to the top yeah you're hitting on something here people do have their go-to but that's why we want but there are other great apples out there like if i just stuck to the granny smith all the time i never would have discovered a pink lady absolutely no but no one no one needs to yeah alex if you never tried a new apple you'd probably still be eating red delicious or matt yes those apples kind of suck no those are terrible that's what i'm saying we got to get rid of them and then what you just find you find one apple yeah courtland is gross i'm looking at it sometimes they're powdery no in your world you find one apple you like and you never try another one no i mean like i'm all for choices but i think at a certain point too many options is too is just makes it difficult first we just need to remind you that apples exist i think that's the that was the that was the main thing this is like like we have to remind people when was the last time you ate an apple within the last month and did you buy it or was it just kind of sitting there somewhere no i buy apples and it was which variety and did you have multiple to choose from or was there only one variety there to pick from no there was there was multiple choices and i went with granny smith you want granny smith yeah green right that's what yes yeah yeah which is a bad name for some of these are some of these need new naming like some of these need we need to i don't think so punk lady we wanted them to change punk lady is good punk lady is good but i but i disagree that we need to be renaming uh the category is already complex enough yeah i've never heard what's a braeburn what is that that's that i don't know real apple heads no dude yeah braeburn jacob Fulority was in that, right?

34:58That was the movie with him and sort of, no, that's a bad joke. Okay. There's some, yeah, there's some apples here that just like, they're not cracking the top 10 of apples. No, no. They still exist. There's a million varieties of apples.

35:10Jessica Dimcevski:And we need to bring more attention to them. No, too many. We got to cut them down. That's a horrible take. But there's like, again, there's like. Remember guys, it's a healthy food. They're good for you. I love apples. They're good for you. If we can encourage variety and different discovery moments. Alex is really getting hung up on this one little detail. Yeah. No, but I mean like there's a couple oranges. There's like a few peaches. There's a bunch. No, there's a couple of oranges that are available to you at your local grocery store. There are like a million varieties of oranges. Yeah, but people are overwhelmed with choice.

35:40They just need to.

35:40Jessica Dimcevski:And there's also citrus if we open that up. I mean, we don't need to open it up to pairs. Also, Sumo though, the sort of ones with the thing on top. Yes, yes. Those are really good. Yeah. But these are emerging brands in the produce space, which is kind of fun. It's fun. Yeah. That's why I said it was a dream project. Yeah. for us to be able to define how brand actually shows up is, is yeah, a cool project. Especially in a, in a space where people are just really just going for the product. They're just like, uh, you're not buying the brand. You're just like, I'm going for that apple. Yeah. And people are going to buy visually first.

36:13Jessica Dimcevski:Like you want to make sure it's not bruised. Do you want to make sure it's fresh? Yeah. Speaking of my, we were talking about the pop-up grocer, the trip that I went on with my class. I also got those like$15 strawberries. Oh, yeah. Get them out of here. Terrible. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, Oishi. Wait, because they weren't flavorsome? They looked good, but they didn't actually taste good? I think if you're going to sort of charge a premium for - And were they the pink ones or the white ones? They're the pink ones. Were they ripe? Were they optimal for eating? Sometimes you got to wait a little bit on this.

36:42You know what they tasted to me? Artificial. They tasted like -

36:45Jessica Dimcevski:Oh, like they've been hydroponically grown, not a lot of flavor? They tasted like fake strawberries, like lab-based strawberries. Oh, no. That was kind of the vibe I got. Like they were like someone had AI'd the strawberries kind of like to sort of mimic what a real, like it was a strawberry, like fake meat almost of strawberries. That's what it was. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. I've got an, I need to remember how much it costs, but there you can at Erewhon, if we go back to LA, you can buy three strawberries. I don't remember, I don't remember the price, but I think it was close to 10 to$12 for three strawberries.

37:18Jessica Dimcevski:Yeah. They were delicious. I'd like to try those. I can't even eat strawberries in Missouri. They were delicious. They were much bigger too. anymore yeah you're off strawberries i i had a really you know you get them at the farmer's market or you get them at like you know like fresh in season they're like falling apart already they're mushy i've been to the pinnacle of strawberries i cannot eat a store where did you where did you go to the pinnacle uh washington okay yeah they got a lot of good shit up in washington including apples yeah we got like two a two pound bag of them and we just munched them in the car it was phenomenal yeah driscoll's strawberries i think are they're they're most known for their strawberries in terms of branded produce yeah i also like their blueberries yeah and the raspberries yeah they got good berries yes they got good berries but their strawberries i personally prefer to those oishi kind of branded strawberries i'd like to try the 50 are doing a really great job of partnerships their brand is everywhere they've got like a strawberry salt like i think they even got a brand yes somebody's selling like 90 strawberries too like i think you can even like increase the price you pay for strawberries there are honey ju-melons that sell for hundreds depending on the pattern and the profile on the outside and yeah fruit is a yeah fruits in yep that's what this podcast is about yeah that's what it seems so far that's what the next f we're going to talk about yeah i don't really know but um it's it is an interesting trend of like thing you know the protocial getting sort of branding and i think yes is a good example of it it's like i think you've given love to the varietals and the sort of like where they come from and i think that's important i think once that's why i think oishi is like an interesting case study i think in sort of going like premium luxury beauty which i think is cool but i think it's kind of feels like contrived yeah i don't know i feel like i'm being sold something that i the products got to deliver and it just didn't for me and that's i haven't tried them recently it could be an isolated event it could it could just be the The pop of grocer, maybe not necessarily having the most - I did try the Oishi salt.

39:17Jessica Dimcevski:I did try the strawberry salt, which was delicious. Strawberry salt? What do you do with that? Yeah, that's a happier grocer. Yeah. Yeah. What did you put a happier grocer? Oh my gosh. Yeah. As a packaging king, you must. Oh, thank you for the new title. Yeah. Packaging king. Yeah, I haven't been there. Look at the wall behind you. That's fit. Yeah. I got to go there. What was your experience there? You obviously liked it. Oh, I love it. They also sell Flings and Society de la Rasi, which is another brand that we've created. But it's great for discovery. It's kind of like Big Night, Pop-Up Grocer, but then they've also got their own brands.

39:47Jessica Dimcevski:I call it like it's the Erewhon of New York. Yeah. Okay. It's got its own brand. It's a proper grocery store. Yeah. They got like eggs and shit, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A lot of Better For You brands as well. Yeah. I love that store. Same. Really? Same. Yes. You've got to make sure you go down to the basement as well. I feel like a lot of people just stay - Yeah, there's two levels. A lot of people just stay at the top with all the beverages and the hot food, but you've got to go down to all packaged goods. They also sell a bit of beauty. Yeah. I went to a good store recently what you got pierogi boys shout out pierogi boys great restaurant really they have like a shoppy shop store oh and what is that like another discovery store like there's a lot of packaged goods yeah there's a lot of it sounds like pierogi well they got a restaurant the name is confusing yeah pierogi boys very fire restaurant shout out to them one of the best bites of the year for me so far wow best bites of the year big call pork schitzel is fire wow wow I'm looking at the website really cool design definitely not going to Ridgewood I mean, that's not true, but I mean, highly unlikely.

40:46So wait, this brand is a hybrid pierogi shop and grocer? So they got a restaurant and then they got a grocer, like a grocery store. Oh, where's the Brooklyn? There's another one, but in Brooklyn. Is there? Yeah.

40:58Jessica Dimcevski:Oh, there's the Meadow Lanes. Downtown Brooklyn. There's the Meadow Lanes of the world, which are kind of, it's not a restaurant, but it's kind of like a cafe. You can sit in and have your coffee, pastries. Very nice. But they also sell the packaged goods. Yeah. Mixed between cafe, retail. I like a mixed space. It's happening. Yeah. it's good i do too these pierogies look great i bet they they might even have like sandwiches and stuff i don't know wow yeah well congrats to pierogi boys you just got a sort of big endorsement from kevin that's a big deal yeah he's i did actually overhear you in the studio talking about pierogi boys so you're how often do you eat out uh probably like once or twice a week i cook for the most part yeah it's decent end of march now i mean you've got the rest of the year but for the last three months yeah that's fair they're number one yeah what do you like to do here in New York?

41:42What's a, obviously music, you mentioned Fred again, like what else do you do for fun?

41:47Jessica Dimcevski:Literally the first thing I do is hit up my favorite grocery stores, which we've touched on. Exactly. I also love, completely out of branding, the class. What's that? It's an exercise class. Okay, let's go. That combines somatic dance, meditation and Pilates. Wow. It sounds like a dance class. It's not, but you pretty much dance to Fred again, EDM music, house music. Okay. And it's not choreographed or anything like that, but it's - there's a lot of repetition. The teachers guide you through your emotions because you want to stop. Like, I swear we did about 100 burpees the other day. Wow. But it's quite a unique - Are they teacher or are they shaman?

42:23Jessica Dimcevski:No, no, no. They're teachers. They're exercise teachers. Nice, nice. It's more - it's an exercise class. But with shaman? But it only exists here. You can only go in person. So, during COVID, I was actually doing it online back in Australia. So, every time I'm here, I'm like, I've got to go. Check it out. If I can - yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, so they are, it's a cross between, sorry, one more time. It's a, it's a cross between dance, meditation and Pilates. That's pretty cool. But there's also a lot of repetition rather like, like a hundred burpees rather than like a choreographed dance. Got it. So just up and down.

42:57Jessica Dimcevski:But it's just a really cool music. Okay. That actually, yeah, gets your heart pumping, gets you excited. And where in Brooklyn is that? It's not in Brooklyn, that's in Tribeca. Oh, how, how sort of elitist of me to assume. I do leave. I do leave the Brooklyn bubble. I don't know about you. For fitness. Alex, he notoriously doesn't leave the neighborhood. I know. He was telling me that the other day. Yeah. And it's kind of a bit, but also kind of not a bit. It's not a bit. It's just my life, guys. Why leave a neighborhood if it's got all the things you need? Hey, he's teaching at SVA. He's getting out a little bit.

43:30I do. Dude, and it sucks, dude. I had to take the fucking L yesterday, and it was a nightmare. Damn, that is an L. Yeah. When the train's down and not running and then you just got some guy down underground yelling at you. It's just that's why I don't like Greenpoint. It's just like I don't need to get on a train. It is tough out there. It is hard, but I will do it for Debbie Millman. I'll do it for SBA. But yeah, no, for shamans teaching dance classes. You should do it for pierogi boys. Ridgewood is deep, deep. Take an Uber. I don't know. That's a long ass Uber.

44:07Jessica Dimcevski:You can also go to Meadow Lane, which is around the corner from the class. So you can mix it with like some packaging. So immediately put it on my calories. Correct. I like that. Yeah, that's how I do it. Cool. And what other sort of guilty pleasures? As you know, that's our topic here of the podcast. Guilty pleasures for designers. Guilty pleasures or hobbies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they can both be the same. Honestly, when I'm here, like there are so many products on the shelves and so many different brands. Like I spend hours in stores. Like that is, that brings me joy. And literally analyzing the packaging, why have they chosen to put this on the front hierarchy of information?

44:45Jessica Dimcevski:I know it sounds really nerdy, but that's what interests me. Architecture and hierarchy. I mean, listen, you kind of have to have that affliction or disease. But like, and I was teaching this to my students and I was saying like, I go to bodegas and I just started looking down the aisle and I started pulling things out and looking around. and you got to go and do your research. Yes. And you got to go see what's out there and you got to go, it's all around you. And what's different in categories? I mean, how, you know, what are the new protein brands? What are we shoving protein in now? Popcorn and Pop-Tarts.

45:17Rotisserie chicken. Wow.

45:19Jessica Dimcevski:There's a lot of protein. What are the Australian markets like in terms of, have they caught up to our branding? No, no, no, no. And that's why I love coming here because it's just so much more fun. There's so much more. There are so many more brands here just by sheer population and scale of the economy and everything. But I feel like Australia is kind of five years behind. Yeah. I mean, Australia, there's a lot. We've worked with many Australians. We love Australians here. There's seemingly everywhere here in New York. We have a pretty easy visa. Yeah, I think that's part of it. Also, one thing I've also noticed about Australians is that they hang out in Australian packs.

45:58Do you have like a group of Australian gang that you hang out with?

46:01Jessica Dimcevski:I've got the Australian gang, but I've also got the American gang. Because I actually lived here. I do have quite a fair few American friends. And I come here and I want to hang out with them. That's good. The Australian friends, I've also got them back home. I don't need to. But I get it, though. It's like you come to New York and then you sort of are far from home. Very, very far from home. So you want to surround yourself with - I have some familiarity. But also, look, they come home often. So we can also see each other there. Do you think that Australians created avocado toast? Controversial question of the day.

46:37Jessica Dimcevski:Well, I'm going to say yes, because that was my first moment of like, yeah, I had it in Australia and it was a big thing. And there was a huge joke. Like if you can afford avocado toast, that's why you can't afford to buy a home. Like if you want to buy a home, just stop spending on avocado toast. That's yeah. Now, now look at us. Same. Similar thing. Similar thing. What about the flat white? Is that coming from Australia? I would also say, yeah. do you have different takes on this no I've heard I'm biased clearly somebody who used to work here who's from New Zealand said that New Zealand invented it I said I don't know I will give New Zealand the pavlova I think they invented the pavlova which Aussies always claim that was ours but I actually do think I don't even know what that is yeah I was gonna say why do you need to take a claim for that it's a meringue cake it's just a big meringue with cream on top and you put fruit and passion fruit on top but it's delicious I love it it's like an Eton mess but not.

47:31I think the sort of argument though of who invented the avocado toast is a good one because I have heard many Australians claim that they did and I want to believe them. I also believe that there are some people that debate that fact and I believe those people are from Los Angeles or a West Coast leaning. I don't think New York gets credit for any, you know, it's not, we're not in this race. Let's see what chat to you.

47:55Jessica Dimcevski:So we do fact check around here. Oh yeah. I mean, if you consider chat was the maybe a flawed search engine invented who invented the avocado toast Sydney wow it settles it there it is whatever chat TPC says must be true I mean I don't know invented avocado toast I don't know I'm pretty sure anyone at home could have just put some avocado on toast but we made it viral widely credited to Australia in the 90s cities began serving smashed on artisan bread oh in the 90s damn lemon olive oil salt and extras like feta or chili flakes. I mean, listen, I want to give it to you. Congrats. Thank you. It's a great - Thank you.

48:34Jessica Dimcevski:I will claim that moment to fame. I didn't even know what an avocado was until like 2007 or 2008. What did you think guacamole was made from? I don't know. I don't think I really had guacamole until then. I mean, that's fair. I mean, to be honest, I don't know that I thought a lot about avocados in my youth. We're not a like, you know, it wasn't a thing like it is now. That surprises me because it's America and like - No, but you're thinking about America now. yes true but like there's a lot of mexican food a lot of avocado yeah yeah i don't know but it wasn't it wasn't a big part of breakfast i don't think that that is more recent i think that is like getting an avocado and having it with eggs is is not a not something i grew up with yeah true yeah i might have you grew up with pop tart sweet yeah i might have had like guacamole at some point but yeah never ever probably until i was in like high school yeah don't think i ever had a you know solid avocado in my hand.

49:27But I also, you know, I don't. I'm glad that it's a part of your life now. I did eat a ton of Pop-Tarts as a kid. So, you know, that's a.

49:32Jessica Dimcevski:A lot of healthy fats. I'm glad it's a part of your diet. Oh, yeah. I got a, I'm going to eat half an avocado for lunch today. Wow. Huge. On brand for the day. Shout out to Australia. What else did Australia invent? Do you have a list? A running list? Not really. No. I mean, I think we've touched on it. Flat white's the biggest one. Yeah. But here, I've also noticed flat white. you serve them with a different amount of milk here. That's not traditional in Australia. So if I want a flat white versus a latte, the latte has more milk. In Australia, flat white actually is determined by the amount of froth on top.

50:09Jessica Dimcevski:You still get to choose your size. You still get to choose your size? I thought it was a set amount. No, that's an American thing. And I think some of Europe does that too. I don't know. I think it should be. I think coffee, I think espresso drinks, one size, one way to make them. When I was in Canada, I was trying to get a flat white at a good coffee shop. They're pulling decent espresso there. They asked me what size, and I almost spazzed on it. I was like, what the fuck do you mean size? I want a regular flat white. It's like two shots and whatever amount of milk it is. I'm like, fuck out of here with size.

50:39Jessica Dimcevski:Yeah, I always want to go with the regular. The large is where it starts to get a bit iffy. I don't know the espresso to milk ratio. I don't know the size of your cup here. Are you going to give me a mega, mega one? It needs to be standard. other things that Australia is getting credit for avocado toast, flat white wifi wow, huge, huge I know that we did do we call it pay wave like when I came here after COVID people were still using so much cash and I was like guys we can just carry our phone around and just tap and pay that way you don't even need cash I was like this is America, you're so progressive, why are we so behind this makes sense now something called lamington cake Oh my God, the lamington.

51:22Jessica Dimcevski:Yes. We've never had that. I've never even heard of that. It's like a sponge cake with jam in the middle, cocoa on the outside and coconut. Okay. Delicious. And last on this list, spray on skin. What? Use for treating severe burns. Okay. Very nice. Okay. Way to go. We invented that. Did you grow up being - You're educating me. Yeah. Did you grow up in one of these Australian schools where they like made kids get thrown in the ocean and like have to swim to save their lives? Yes. Yeah. Can you talk to our listeners about that? But that was news to me when I met Australians. Well, a lot of the cities are by the water.

51:55Jessica Dimcevski:So you have to know how to swim from a young age. Yeah. So in school, you would go to the ocean and they would just make you swim with your clothes on? That's the thing? I mean, have you seen those reels on Instagram where it's just like some random guy, like a swimming instructor just toss a baby in the pool and they just - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was that what they did? Tomato to mono. I think it's older. We did a lot of beach trips. I do have a really early memory, though, of falling face first into the sand and not knowing how to get myself out. Yes, like panicking as a child. Like that's how they drown.

52:25Jessica Dimcevski:Wow. So I think my parents were also after that. That was a little bit traumatizing. Like we got to really teach her how to swim. That's a real horror story. But we had a pool at our school. So that's kind of where it happened. Yeah, no, I always thought that was funny because, again, like we've worked with a lot of Australians. We get along with Australians. there's something in the water that connects New Yorkers and Australians I think it's because Australians don't take themselves so seriously that's the thing that I've always really appreciated they take what they do seriously but not themselves where do you think that comes from?

52:55Ask an Australian, this is our new segment

52:56Jessica Dimcevski:we've got a lot of English influence obviously but I think they're a little bit more dare I say, uptight and I think we also have a lot of you know, we're a country of convicts so, you know convicts? yes okay yes okay is it and i think that where all the nicknames come from everyone's got like everyone very comfortable with a nickname yeah like if you just met kevin you'd be like what's up kev yes we shorten names all the time but i've learned that i literally every all the almost the very first thing that i say when i get on a meeting with an american is if like how what can i call you can i shorten your name would you prefer the long form and it's long form almost like majority of the time yeah we don't love shortening no why is that does it feel like I just it's not as formal yeah don't call me Al no please do not oh I would never you're not an Al thank you I appreciate that but I don't but I just don't think that we like we have names and we like them to be said is your full name Alexander it is not my mother and father very smartly thought that was too many letters for me I think Alex is a nice short name I agree I think we need to we don't need to shorten that further yeah no and also it is shorter for Alexander but not for me what about like I got a pre-brand.

54:11I didn't need to shorten it. But I've noticed all Australians, they're very quick with nicknames. They're very quick to hit you with the sort of - Anthony, Tony, James, Jim. You know, that sort of thing.

54:21Jessica Dimcevski:Yeah. I spoke to an Andrew yesterday. I'm like, do you mind if I call you Andy? But he was Australian. See, that's crazy though. And he loved it. It's also a way to connect with Australians in America. Yeah, but if you did that to an American that you never met, you were just like, I call you Andy. That's so - But I would. I now know. That's the thing. It's very personal. Correct. It's like something. But if I met another Jessica, even if she was American, I would maybe say, do you mind if I call you Jess? It's a popular name. Does that matter? But it's very close. It's very personal. I don't know for whatever reason.

54:56I don't know. Talk about taking themselves too seriously. Who cares?

54:58Jessica Dimcevski:Yeah. Who the fuck cares? It's a perfect example of we don't take ourselves too seriously. You can say whatever. But if you're like, hey, Ali, I'd be like, no. No, but that's like a complete change in your personality. I don't know do you call if someone calls you Kev I don't that you've never met before I don't give a shit let's just this is why maybe you get along with Australians classic Kev being Kevin I see you as you could be a Kev yeah I could be it doesn't matter you're chill yeah maybe you're a bit more what do we say up uptight yeah I also asked Jachi PT the most consumed apples worldwide by purchase we have number one Fuji which dominates Asia especially China and Japan number two Gala trash get it out of here three red delicious the most dominant apple of the 20th century it's probably just because it's like fed to children in schools and they're like you know industrially produced here and maybe in apple pie right that's i don't know is it apple red delicious number four honey and you haven't tasted others i think granny smith i think granny uh what is it granny smith i think those are that's apple pie apples really i think so if you want to sour yeah if you want to be more i think a traditional apple pie though it goes Goes for the more sweet ones.

56:09Jessica Dimcevski:Yeah. Number four, Honeycrisp. It's the fastest growing, especially in North America because everyone knows it's the best. And Pink Lady, Honeycrisp Pink Lady. I feel like those two are sort of - But Pink Lady's not on top five. Number five, Granny. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Wow, thanks for the fact check. The new Club Apples, they call them. Cosmic Crisp. Yes, I know. That's a cool name. That is sick. I've not tasted it. Yeah. I haven't come across one, have you? They go to see Fred again? Is that what they do? I think they like their trademark. They love dance music? They trademarked. We've got to put a registered trademark next to those names.

56:44Someone owns a trademark for Pink Lady? Wow. Yeah. Who is that? Yeah, I don't know. Probably the farm that produces Pink Lady. Fuck. So they own it? Yeah, they own it because it's like the seeds and it's like IP.

56:56Jessica Dimcevski:That's why we couldn't call it a punk lady. Yeah. Because they own the fucking trademark. It's like how Sherbinsky's owns Gelato. Yeah. Yeah. That is an interesting point. Wow. I never knew that pink lady was a trademark until right now. Look, we learned so much today. Thank you, ChatGPT. Yeah, we've learned a great deal of things. Jess, before we get out of here, anything else you want to talk about? Do you want to talk about this pasta brand? Ah, yes. That literally came out, I think, last week. Yeah. Nuda. Nuda. Yes. Did you name it? No, we did not. It's a good name. One of the few. Yes, they already had that name.

57:32Jessica Dimcevski:And it was because it had very few ingredients. It started off with three. I think it's got a couple more now as it's gone through a few iterations. But the main ingredient is almond meal. It's the world's first almond pasta. Almond pasta. That's been packaged and sold in America. It's very chic. Yes. Yeah. It takes on some luxury cues. It's still quite functional. It's high in protein. How much does this cost? Like 20 bucks? It's got a - It's technically not for sale. It's coming up for - It's not for sale. It's for pre-sale right now. Pre-sale right now. What does that mean? It's - Pre-order?

58:03Jessica Dimcevski:Correct. Correct. You get your pasta on layaway? Yeah. What? You gotta, you gotta. No, this is fresh. It literally came out like just the other week. So I think they're going to start shipping them out in the next few weeks. Have you tried it? I have. Yeah. Yeah. For me, I wanted to make sure that the texture was right. Yeah. And I think that's a big barrier, especially, so I'm gluten free. And so this was a project I loved. So I was like, okay, cool. It's gluten free. How can we make sure that the texture is right? So that's why they went through a few different iterations there, but it's still, I think we used Italian al dente as a part of the verbal identity to help reassure people that that little bite is still there it's not gonna be mush when you cook it yeah you don't want mush no no no it still has to be al dente i still want to have it with my bolognese and the all the delicious sauces but because it is made from almond meal or and yeah almond meal and flaxseed is also in there it can be used for like salads and asian dishes as well nice that's cool yeah i had brami for the first time like the protein oh that's very good and i thought it was great yeah i didn't sort of miss this does have like a slight almost sweetness or a nutty flavor if you were really like if you would eat it on its own maybe with just butter or oil but you know that's how i like my pasta like a baby yeah kevin uh feel free to roast me for that one i i do i like a butter and yeah it's good like garlic or just like cheese and salt and pepper yeah yeah yeah right off the kids menu you know just like butter pasta yeah butter pasta i mean listen there's a reason why every kid loves it it's because it's fucking delicious yeah but you're saying this is it has a bit of a sweet flavor if you don't sort of douse it in yes yeah exactly and i think they are going to launch sauces in the future as well so we had to make sure that the visual system could flex to sauce in the future powered by california almonds yes yeah that was also another like controversial thing we were like do we actually say they're from california how much do we talk about almonds because some people are a bit upset about how much water they take up okay to produce to grow but at the end of the day it's an almond-based product i'm like we can't shy away from this you have chosen this yeah yeah we need to talk about yeah we need to talk about the main difference of your product yeah almonds yeah it's funny sometimes when that happens when you get into a branding project and like the thing is so specific and then they're like yeah well i don't know how much we want to like lean into that it's like that's the only reason why this thing is going to be talked about yeah i don't think we need to be talking about flaxseed in your almond-based pasta no that's the second ingredient we need to celebrate these almonds.

1:00:31Jessica Dimcevski:Almond is where a lot of the nutrients comes from. That needs to be front and center. Yeah. Well, that is a good way. Wow. Land this plane. Front, center, Jess. Thank you for coming on the program. Thank you for having me. Thank you for giving us so much information about products, ingredients, about apples, about pasta, and mostly about Australia. Thank you. Thank you. And also, Alex, I just want to shout out to you. You took - Yes. What'd I do? Well, I think you set aside a lot of time to help designers. And yes, you are teaching and you also went out for lunch or breakfast with me the other day.

1:01:03Jessica Dimcevski:And yes, your advice is invaluable. So thank you what you're doing for the design community. We do need more casual conversations like this coming from an Australian who, you know, I think there are a lot of contrived and formulated conversations about design. And this, just so everybody knows, this is my very first just freestyling podcast. Never done this before. I had no idea what you wanted to talk about. There we go. But you have a great way of making people feel comfortable. And again, thanks for what you're doing with the design community. We really appreciate that. And thank you for being cool as hell and just kind of coming in here and just sitting down and freestyling like it was no big thing.

1:01:42It's funny because a lot of people, you know, they want to prepare. They want to have their lines. I'm usually one of those people. Yeah. Well, we don't want that. We just want you to come and be Jess and talk about the things that you do and the work that you do. And yeah, smashed it. So thank you for coming in. and that's the show. Peace. Shout out to you, Allie.