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Podcast Summary: Front and Center - Episode with Talia Cotton
Episode Overview In this episode of Front and Center, hosts Alex Center and Kevin Batory welcome Talia Cotton, a designer, coder, and educator known for her innovative approach at the intersection of design and technology. Talia discusses her journey in founding Cotton, a creative agency focused on purposeful design work with code, and shares insights from her experiences in both teaching and professional practice.
Key Themes and Discussions
Introduction
- Hosts: Alex Center and Kevin Batory
- Guest: Talia Cotton, designer, coder, and educator.
- Key Focus: The intersection of design and technology.
Talia's Background
- Founding of Cotton: Established in 2023, the agency focuses on combining design with coding to create unique solutions.
- Teaching: Talia teaches coding at Parsons School of Design.
- Recognition: Acknowledged by organizations like The One Club and Fast Company for her contributions to design and technology.
Design Philosophy
- Coding as a Tool: Talia emphasizes the importance of coding in design, stating it as an integral part of the design process rather than a separate entity.
- Client Perspectives: Clients often approach with varying expectations—some seek design, while others look for coding solutions. Talia suggests that clear communication about processes can help align expectations.
The Role of Code in Design
- Advantages of Coding:
- Generative Design: Allows for unique outputs and diversity in design outcomes.
- Automation: Streamlines repetitive tasks to improve efficiency.
- Interactivity: Engages audiences in new, meaningful ways.
- Client Education: Talia discusses the importance of educating clients about the capabilities of code to achieve their goals effectively.
Challenges and Misconceptions
- Resistance to Change: Talia notes that designers often face pushback when proposing interactive or innovative solutions, as clients may prefer conventional approaches.
- Generative Branding: The conversation touches on past attempts at generative branding and the difficulties in managing limitless outputs.
Growth and Future Aspirations
- Agency Growth: Talia expresses her ambition to grow Cotton to accommodate more designers who seek a home in a company that values the blend of design and coding.
- Leadership Philosophy: She shares insights on balancing growth with maintaining quality and the happiness of her employees.
Personal Insights and Advice
- Teaching Advice: Talia encourages Alex to embrace his role as a teacher, emphasizing the impact he can have on students.
- Imposter Syndrome: The conversation delves into the nerves surrounding teaching and presenting work, highlighting the importance of genuine connection with students or clients.
Fun Facts
- Salsa Dancing: Talia shares her past as a salsa dancer and her current hobbies.
- Pop Culture Preferences: She humorously discusses her love for "Sex and the City" and her aversion to watching the final episode.
Key Takeaways
- Intersection of Design and Code: Understanding how to leverage coding in design can enhance creativity and client engagement.
- Client Relationships: Successful collaboration hinges on educating clients and finding common ground.
- Passion for Teaching: Teaching is a rewarding avenue that can enhance personal growth and contribute meaningfully to students' futures.
Conclusion In this episode of Front and Center, Talia Cotton's insights into the merging of design and technology provide a fresh perspective on modern design practices. Her enthusiasm for teaching and passion for coding and design resonate throughout the conversation, inspiring listeners to explore the endless possibilities within the creative industry.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Can I say our color palette right now is kind of anti-graphic designer. were like bright colors that all work together very well. Well, the sun is shining in Brooklyn, New York here today. And so colors are out. I don't wear all black ever. Is that a choice? I mean, I just don't like it. Yeah, that's true. Kevin is not one of those graphic designers that wears all black all the time. I'm not a graphic designer. I gave that shit up years ago. A fruitless pursuit. That's what I think. I actually read something today that the World Economic Forum said that graphic design is one of the fastest declining jobs in America.
0:35No way. So good choice. That's good for us. Good for us. Wait, I want to read that. Declining as in like people are not becoming them or declining like the jobs are declining? Declining in that job where we may be, you know, sort of full-time podcasting very soon. Chad, are we cooked?
0:57Three, two, one. Kevin. What's up? Cool shirt, man. Mr. McGoo. I already did this. How are you today? Good. How are you? The sun shining. I'm on coffee number two, and all is right on Planet Earth. I feel great. We have a special guest in the house, and Front Center is the podcast. Talia Cotton is a designer, coder, and educator who is recognized as a leading specialist at the intersection of design and technology. In 2023, she founded Cotton, a creative agency pursuing purposeful design with code. Talia also teaches and has been recognized by the One Club, TDC, Fast Company, and It's Nice That, and has inspired audiences around the world on the Cotton Global Worldwide Tour.
1:41She's taking a stop here in Greenpoint. Welcome to the show, Talia. Thank you, Alexander. You got t-shirts? Yeah, you need shirts. I have hats, I have sweatshirts, and I have bags. And I was going to bring you guys hats in multiple colors, but I forgot it, and I realized on my way here. But they are so cool. I was wearing a cotton hat in the West Village the other day. Some girl comes up to me and she goes, oh, my God, I love their work. And I'm like, yeah, aren't they amazing? And it's like it's such an honor because it's like usually it's like, okay, Talia Cotton. But this time it was the company.
2:15It was that whole thing. And that's such an honor. Very nice. That fucking rules. And well-deserved. But how exciting is that? Very exciting. Yeah. Cotton is your real last name. Cotton is my real last name. Born with it. Wow. Do people ask you that a lot? They ask me why is it called Cotton, and then I say it's because it's my last name. But they don't ask me the origins of my last name. People are shocked when I tell them my last name is Center. Yeah. They are like, wait a minute, what? Center is both your last name and the name of the company that you founded? And then I say yes, and wow, it really, you see their heads just explode.
2:49And then people try to like draw connections. They're like, oh, but like Cotton, is it because like the fibers of Cotton and you're like the fibers of technology, but also you're soft and approachable. I'm like, no. It's not that at all. Yeah, yeah. It's not that deep. Not that deep. It's just my last name, guys. It's just my last name. Yeah, I've tried to over-intellectualize center. You know, it makes a lot of sense, right? Of course, yeah. You find your center. But I actually find myself weaning and swerving away from those things. Very smart. Except for front and center of this podcast. There you go.
3:19Well, it's a great name. It's a dual meaning. Yeah, it's a double meaning. It stands for the middle and Alex. Weren't you saying that Kevin has to change his last name to Front? Yeah. Well, Kevin's Front. Kevin Front and Alex Center. If we raise enough money. Kevin, what's your last name right now? I want people to like me for my first name, not my last name. There it is. Kevin in Center doesn't really have a ring to it. Kevin. Yeah. Kevin Front's not good. No. I don't like it. You don't like Kevin Front? No. I'm kind of, it's growing on me. I would do it for like a couple hundred K. Okay. All right.
3:52All right. All right. and I'll hit the streets. That's the price. Talia, where are you from? Can you disclose that information? I'm from New York, New York City. Okay. So you and I met at a Collins event and it was a very packed house. And the central concept of that event was designers having beers, having a good time. And then the second part of that event was designers make mistakes and we're going to share them. And I was unfamiliar with your work and you went in front of the room with a very small projector and were like, I'm going to show you some fucking sick code. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what is this?
4:30And I was very impressed. And then we met and we hung out. And I have never seen anyone do design like you before. Thank you very much. When did you start doing this? I started designing. I graduated from Parsons in 2019. and I was there for an abridged period. I know like mathematics of age. I was there for about two and a half years. I had transferred from another school where I wasn't studying design and I discovered coding in my first semester at a design school. And back then there wasn't really anything that anyone was doing to intersect design and coding and technology and blah, blah, blah.
5:10But what I was doing was I was obsessed with coding. I've always been sort of like combo left brain, right brain. And I was working on my design projects using code because I loved it. But my teachers were not coders and they were critiquing me on the design on the same level as someone using Adobe Illustrator. So I have always known about those two as the same. And since then, my career has always just defined itself around that intersection as well. It's not one versus the other. They are one and the same. How many of your projects are code-based at Cotton? A large amount of them, but you wouldn't know that because we use coding as mostly a design tool for pretty much everything.
5:56For example, we did something where the deliverable was a static deliverable, but in order to make it, we needed some sort of automated design thing. So we just built a custom automated tool in-house and we just made these designs and then we handed it off to the client. Are the clients coming to you looking for code or are they looking for design? Half, half. Half, half. Okay. Yeah. It's how clients work. They all hear something about what you do. They're drawn to something and then they come and they don't really know what to expect. And you have to explain what you do based on what you think will resonate with them best.
6:27And are there clients that are like, don't do this. We don't care how it's done. Just give it to us and make it look good. Well, the way I like to describe it is don't use the C word when you're talking about what you do. Don't use code because Don't worry, we would never. Because you're not like when you're pitching for something, you're not saying, oh, and by the way, guys, we're going to be using Figma. It's so great. You're not going to do that. So same way, they don't care how we make it. It's about its ideas. It's about how do we make sure that they can get a bigger audience, sell their product, et cetera.
7:00What can code do that Figma or Adobe products can't do? Do you want me to go into the spiel? How long is the spiel? How long is the spiel? I can try to do it in 25 seconds. All right, we're going to tie you. Put the timer on the clock. There are, I'm nervous now because you're counting. There are sort of five areas, stop counting. There are sort of five areas. Okay, stop it. There are sort of five areas where coding can do something different. Well, actually, let me back up. When you think about Figma and all those digital softwares behind the scenes, what you don't see is that those are all tools that were built by developers for designers.
7:37So there is code behind the scenes. It's just with an interface and certain limitations and certain things that are made a little bit easier. So think about it like we are just like the developers behind the scenes making the custom tools for whatever custom design project that we need. The outputs in form and infunction can be anything that's generative using random values. Time's up. Just kidding. I mean, I would love to be interrupted. I've gone into this spiel way too many times. No, it's good. No, it's good. We're loving it. We're loving it. Okay. We got it now. So it can be generative using random values, obviously with care.
8:13It can be automated where you sort of say like, do the same task over and over and over again, obviously with care and control, interactive, adaptable, data-driven, stuff like that. But where this turned into something that we realized we could actually make money on in a business is that it's not, clients don't care about, you know, oh, this looks cool. Clients, again, care about how it communicates an idea to audiences. And when I realized that a lot of these new capabilities and form and function have sort of like a deeper meaning, then it sort of started to solidify. For example, when you have generative design, where you basically say, okay, computer, run this function, and it gives you 1000 different outputs.
8:52Suddenly, that's sort of like the most authentic representation of diversity, because it's not saying, oh, you're a circle, you're a rectangle, you're a hexagon, choose one, and everyone's different. It's saying no, literally, like this is a unique iteration that speaks to you. And there's so many other things that those opportunities in form and in function can be for using code. So how does a client go about using like a generative brand system? It depends on the client. I think for your, what exactly do you mean by that question? Dumb one is like, if you got a thousand logos getting popped out, like how do you choose?
9:26If you go back to sort of like the history of generative logo, this is going to get way nerdier than any friend center podcast at all but you're this is immediately going over our heads but i love it let's keep going um i will answer that though and i will maybe i won't speak for kevin it's going over my head i will get nerdy because it is one half of my personality yeah yeah yeah if you go back to the history of generative branding specifically um i call it sort of like the first wave of generative branding think like the old mit media lab logo generative brands were coming in everyone's like oh my god amazing like a logo can be infinite and it's incredible so mit media lab designed by irun king was released a million different logos and then two years later they came to pentagram to change that because apparently they didn't know which logo was the logo too many and that too many logos there isn't a single logo and if you think about what a logo is it has to be a single symbol it has to be the coca-cola it has to be the fedex right it's like this thing that people have comfort you know there's an arrow inside of that You know, I've used that example in design presentations to try to teach my clients to be more subtle.
10:34Anyway, so the answer is with a generative logo, you cannot possibly have a generative logo without also saying this is your logo. And you have the generative options within there. It's just it's the only way to do it. So your brand books are infinite. Yeah. They're infinity pages long. Sometimes the brand book comes down to it's being replaced by a design tool where instead of saying like, and this is where you're going to place the logo on this thing. It's here's a design tool where you only have the four options where you can place the logo and you only have these colors. And if you choose one color and this color doesn't go with it, but it's also in the color palette, you literally can't choose that color.
11:15It's the future of design. That's impressive. It sounds a little bit more complicated than PDFs and sort of putting them together with sort of a color page and a type page, which, to be honest, I think still the best way. Good way to keep your clients on track. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Use these three colors. Yeah. No other colors. You know that page in the guidelines where it has the big X's over? Yeah. How do you do that with generative? Are you saying they can't select it? That's the equivalent. With brand guidelines, one of the biggest issues is that people just sort of like go to the content that they only want to see and they skim over the content.
11:56If you go to a page. You're telling people are skimming our brand guidelines? If you go to a page and there's like six red X's on it, you're not going to want to look at that page. You're going to be like, oh, this doesn't apply to me. I follow the rules. That's the best page. It's like the psychology of brand books is like people really only want to see it for what they need. But you know the one where they squish it? And then the one where they make it like all sorts of crazy colors? And you're like, don't do that. And sometimes they do it anyway. Yeah, no, those are the bad clients. But like the good clients, they're like, oh, yeah, I see the big red X over those things.
12:24Can't be me. Do you think people still read? No. God, no. I mean, I think we should be making brand guidelines TikToks. Yeah. Short form brand guidelines. Each section is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Welcome to the logo section. It's its own 60 second video. Not a bad idea. A little quick dance. Yeah. And like Dochi pops out. Yeah, no, I guess, you know, and again, like it sounds quite complicated. if I'm being honest with you. Why make a practice that's so simple so complicated? I would argue that it's actually the opposite because to use a brand guidelines document, it can get really complicated, especially now that you're getting brands that have way more colors than ever before, lots of different iterations for lots of different applications.
13:06And when you have a custom design tool, it's baked into it. To build it maybe might sound complicated for someone like yourself, Alexander. I don't do anything around here. But it's actually really, really simple for us. All the people here behind the wall, they're the ones that are actually doing it. I'm just the face of this operation. That's great. Yeah, that's great. But I think what you could do with code, if I'm going to get real for a second. Go for it. Is I think what it unlocks this kind of magical moment for me is that we're all sitting on screens, right? We're all watching and interacting with brands in places where we can be a part of it.
13:43and instead of just looking at it and saying, oh, that's a brand, there is a sort of, it can interact or it can sort of, we can impact and play a part. And I think people do desire that ability to not just look at something and move on from it, but sort of find a way to engage. And we're all trying to create brands that people want to engage with. And I think that's when code, in my opinion, is the most effective when I can sort of, as a user, Not a brand designer working with sort of the brand identity, but as a person on your website or a person sort of seeing some of the articles or some of the things where I'm like, this is a way that I can play or information can be presented to me in new and exciting ways where it's not just I clicked play and it moved.
14:34or it'll unlock something that I think is really powerful and novel that actually makes me wonder why so much of what we see and interact with is so simple. Do you believe that in the future, and obviously this is why your studio exists in many ways, it's like, do you see a world where brands are all interactive and code-based in this way or no? Not really. But I do think that, like you say, the interactive aspect of code, that's one of the list of possibilities. The best part about it is that suddenly, for the first time, the viewers and the participants and the customers and the consumers are and can be a part of the brand, as opposed to before where they were just sort of like passive onlookers.
15:24And as a result, you get a lot more kind of like empathy in a way. The people feel like they are a part of it. They feel like they are heard. They feel like the brand responds to them a lot better. So there are all these benefits for brands to make it interactive. As in terms of whether everyone will start doing it, probably not. But in terms of whether that will go on an upward trajectory, probably yes. So are you generally kind of like the only person doing this? Or is it like a widely used tool in the design community? Interactivity? Well, no, design with code, sorry. Code. It's a good question.
16:05There are a lot of creative coders now. They all, in my eyes, sort of stem a little bit more in the like art world than myself. I have a branding background. I've worked in agencies. And whenever anybody asks me who sees me talk, they're like, where can I work and do what you're doing? I'm like, I really just think only at cotton. And it's true. We do consumer work. We do brand work. We do stuff that has an impact, that has a meaning, that works for brands. But no one really has the same control that we have when we're using the code as a design tool. So in the way that you're using code, like you just mentioned, like interactivity to me is like some of the most exciting stuff.
16:44but there's so many or there's many different ways in which you could use. How do you, when starting a project, do you sort of, how do you determine which pathway is the right way to go? Because going down those pathways, I imagine, takes a lot of time. Not, I mean, it's a good question. It's sort of backwards. You know how I, we are now thinking about it in terms of like, oh, well, code is generative and I could do many different random things or code is interactive and I can make it interactive. For us, it's a little bit more about the traditional branding process. You ask them what their goals are.
17:13You ask them what they need to communicate. You ask them their deeper mission and values. And then we think of what is sort of like the way to communicate that using visual techniques, visual and motion techniques and interactive techniques and generative techniques. And we have a pretty good sense just from our experience about which values sort of like match up with which coding principles. I could go deeper if you want. Yeah, no. But it's essentially sort of these are the services that we offer in some ways that could help you reach your goals. Yeah, in a way. And then I think from there you work with a client.
17:50I mean, how many of your clients are versed in code and design or if any? Nobody is versed to our degree. Yeah, no, they're not making the code. But in terms of like ability to sort of understand it, I think, and really kind of take advantage of what you guys can do. I think there's, you know, I think, yeah, I just wonder how many clients are sort of thinking this way. I don't think that many, but in a way they come to us to educate them on that. They come to us like they say, we love what you do. It always resonates. I don't know how you're going to do it for us, but I know you will. And then figure it out.
18:29And that's what happens. Yeah, no, that's great. And so you were, like you mentioned, working in studios, sort of what did you start your career sort of in? Have you always been designing with code or was there sort of moments where you were sort of working in agencies and working sort of regular design style? There isn't a single studio before Cotton that was allowing me to use code on everything. So I was doing traditional branding a lot of the time, some editorial projects, some marketing, some packaging, some interactive or some like product design. So I do have that experience. But oftentimes they would hire me because they would see me as like, oh, she can like help our company become more like digitally friendly.
19:10And then what ended up happening was there was still some resistance by the leadership wherever I went because they didn't see the same potentials that I did. And then Cotton was born. Fair enough. Fair. Yeah, no. And I guess when I, you know, sort of, Cotton turned two years old the other day. Congratulations. Thank you. Thanks for coming to the party. Yeah, no. And it was fun. And it was good to meet some of the Cotton crew. when I was talking to you there I said you know if I can give you one piece of advice I was like hey Talia you know I've been around you know I have a studio too and you know in a real dickhead type way I was like don't grow too fast and you looked me straight in the eye and you said I want to be 110 people is that still the goal you know this is a week later so where are we standing on this?
20:07Well between last time that I spoke to you and the short answer is yes but it has evolved and I'm constantly thinking I think you know at two years old everything changes at rapid pace between last time start teething words pretty soon I'll be having my teenage tantrum all the time that's where I'm at so I I saw Stefan Sagmeister at the Paradiso Festival last week. Okay, yes. And he asked me a similar thing. Do you want to grow? Blah, blah, blah. Stefan's theory is that definitely stay small, try to resist the urge to grow for a variety of reasons. Some of them being, as you can probably relate to, the best work comes out of a studio that's small.
20:56I think one of the points that he makes is that designers love being hands-on. They love feeling that they are the ones who is making the work that is going out and being on that bus stop, right? And as soon as you grow, designers have less and less responsibility and the work gets not as good. And you start to have a little bit less control as the major designer. You're a little bit less hands-on. You're a little bit more of like the CEO type. So all these like warnings from everyone. And despite that, I know that personally, I like big companies. I came from Pentagram before Cotton, and I didn't want to leave Pentagram because it was such, it is one of the few design agencies that can be that big and still very successful because of its structure.
21:43But there's small teams, though, inside of Pentagram. Exactly. And that's one of the things that I think is interesting for the small team argument. That's right. It's like a pentagram is big, but they're actually 15 or whatever, 10 people or 15 people teams. That's right. So they're not actually a massive company. They're just a bunch of small studios that have banded together. But as a company, they're still very large. That's fair. And when it comes down to it, my employees are extremely happy doing what they're doing. They're working on a day-to-day basis with that intersection of design and code.
22:17And now you have hundreds, if not thousands, if not tens of thousands of students graduating every year who are like, I found my thing. It's design and code. And I can only work at cotton. Now where do I go? And I can only work at cotton. So you better build this place fast. My dream is to give them a home, give them the ability to do what I always wanted to do, what my employees are super happy doing. And I can only do that by strategically figuring out how to grow. and if it means following the pentagram model like build many little smaller teams then that's great if i did do the pentagram model i would also want to consider a world where people feel like they have a little bit more equity or ability to sort of like move up so there's a little bit more hierarchy but then you have that the flip side where then you get people who aren't necessarily as hands-on so these are things that i am thinking about every single day and um luckily um i since essentially the dawn of my career, I've been really fortunate to, I've been getting a lot of recognition and I've been surrounding myself with big name designers.
23:19So I'm able to sort of see the future and see many different ways that a studio of 10 years old and 20 years old can be. So I can sort of take those learnings and kind of apply them to my studio. Also, you can figure it out on the way. I do think you don't have to have the perfect plan you can find what's right for you and i think that's ultimately after i um sort of tried to give you advice and i was like wait a minute why the fuck am i giving advice who's there like why why because it's like people do you know there is that sort of thing where they're like you know how big is your studio how you know and they're like trying to size other studios up and it's like yeah be whatever size studio you want to be and if you know and and i think for the right reasons, of course, right?
24:06Like having tons of designers out there with no home, you know, just on the streets wanting to design with code and they have no place. Just coming up to your window in the rain, looking all sad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like, yeah, typing out love letters in code and protecting them on the walls. Literally laptops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and I think that's really beautiful. And I think there is something about being a founder that is about giving people the gift of having a career. And I think I certainly respect and appreciate that. maybe you know in a dark bar on you know sort of a Thursday night there wasn't enough time to talk about this or nuance there but it's like yeah I do appreciate that aspect and I often think I wish I could hire everybody that I know and I'm like man because that's crazy because I want to give them that gift it's not of working for me but it's a having a career in this industry that I've had now for 20 years exactly I'm very thankful for and unfortunately that would mean that my business would have to change dramatically and be a different type of business that maybe I don't want to run.
25:08And that's just, that journey is for everybody to find on their own way. That's different strokes for different folks. Yeah, exactly. But I like that's a fond tag master. I mean, yeah, I think there are a lot of people that like as you get older, like you do find that and you're like, you want to like help people that are sort of at the beginning of their journey by sort of giving them sort of that knowledge. Because I do think it's one of those things that you do find on your path. And so I'm sorry for trying to teach you. You know, nobody said that it was bad. I appreciate it. No, I felt a shame.
25:50I hear you are apologizing. You're like, I'm so sorry I told you what I think. I told him how bad it was. I was like, man, just like, you know, why do you need to try to do that thing where you're like, can I give you a piece of advice? Because when people do that to me, I'm like, I didn't ask for your fucking advice. Everyone gives me advice, and I'm trained to let it go in one year and not the other. Exactly. But Talia, you're very smart. You don't need other people's advice. I know. And you know that. So I think it's really wonderful. Yeah, we don't even know how to code. We don't know anything about code.
26:23We know nothing about code. Everything you said before, right over my head, like I said. But it sounds really impressive. but I'm not going to use it. I'm just going to be honest with you, which is great for your business. Maybe I'm faking it. Maybe it's all bullshit and you will never know, but it just impresses people. To be honest. That's not exactly what I'm saying. It'd probably be even more impressive if you were faking it. Listen, I would be super impressive. You were like, what was her name? Theranos. What was the lady with the fake company? I don't know. Elizabeth Holmes, you know? Yeah, just fake it.
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26:53You know, just, yeah, just keep talking about code, you know, and just, no one's going to look at it. No one's going to know. No one's going to know. If they saw the code. No one's going to figure this out. Even if they saw the code, they wouldn't know what the hell is going on. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You'd be like, oh, sweet. Code. What the hell is this? It's just like a bunch of numbers and letters. But no, honestly, jokes aside, it's exciting. And I think it does make me wish there was more sort of places in which – I was actually talking about this with a designer that we brought in to work on a motion project that was using code for our motion work.
27:29I heard you hate motion designers. And I was like, you're out of here. No, I'm kidding. No motion designers. Nothing moves around here. Center, we keep it stacked. The only thing worse than a motion designer is a motion designer uses code. Yeah, that's right. That's right, exactly. Just kidding. We're into things that stay still and people like them. And then people can touch them and then they can do the motion is by carrying it on their path But no, I think it was interesting because it was a very different type of way of working. And it was, I learned a bunch through that process. And he was showing me some websites that were sort of built with code.
28:08And I was like, man. Are the websites were built with code? No. Talia. Talia. I mean, they were using code in interesting ways to tell stories. That was a good one. That's good. Off the top rope. Yeah, New York Times pieces where they were using code to help tell stories about buildings and things that I was like really blown away by it. And I immediately was like, why are all these other websites just long ass scrolls with no interactivity and no nothing, nothing, nothing engaging? Why do you think that is? Why do you think so like things are sort of, you know, sort of websites were designed and then there was like this new version of what a website looks like and then it's kind of just stayed mostly the same.
28:50People have a lot of resistance because they are used to things a certain way. They're used to the familiarity of a nav in the top right corner with drop downs if they need something. There's also a whole world of people who are advocates for the absolute best UI UX and anything that stretches away from that is bad design in their eyes. yeah that's why I think that is but don't you think some of those New York Times pieces showcase the ability to storytell in a much more engaging way and I feel like I started seeing some of those pieces 10 years ago and it just feels like people are I assume it's time and money as well like it just takes a little bit more effort to sort of make some of those pieces of web content that are not just words.
29:50It might be that, but it also might be, it might still be that resistance. If you are a design director, a lot of design directors live in fear of what the client will say. Not us, not me, not here. Clients are always right though. That's a fact, we all know this, right? Are you telling me or are you telling the podcast? No, that's, that's, that's. Of listeners, all of your clients who are listening right now. That's all right. That's for the clients and listeners that are clients. They're always right. They've never been wrong. And I'm scared of them. Terrified. Well, so I but I do think that that's why even though there is proof that something like the New York Times can be very successful, very accessible and very creative.
30:34I still think that once someone does something, and we see this in our end as well, once we do something that's very, very creative, there's immediate resistance because it is just different. Even if we can point to New York Times and say they did this exact same thing and it's super successful, it still takes a lot of convincing. Is there a lot of case studying that you find helpful for clients when you're like, look at this and sort of use these other examples, whether it's your own or sort of others, other brands out there that sort of have had success? believe it or not we don't do that uh we do very little looking at other brands and references the only thing that we do do is we always do a landscape analysis um and we do a landscape analysis and we also do what we call like aspirational brands and websites or brands and whatever applications and we say this is where you are right now and this is what you want to look like and we pinpoint sort of like what the and the aspirational brands are don't have to be in the same industry they could be like if you're in a tech company and you're pointing to like a fashion brand but you sort of want to be like that fashion brand of tech companies um that's what we do but it's a little bit less like look at this creative thing that like the new york times did like we can do that too it's more just like this is how we're going to persuade you because it's all strategic one of my favorite projects we did was madeline's uh we're in green point brooklyn here it's a very uh oh you did that yeah it's a very special place um yes and Talia Conn did the branding.
32:00Shows how much Kevin research really is. It's on her website, Kevin, right here. Whoops. Madeline's in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. That is awkward. And that's where your second birthday party was. A great place. And in our conversation, which I got a lot of insights into, you said, I don't come to Brooklyn because I'm from Manhattan. What's your beef with Brooklyn, Talia? Why do you not come to the best borough? If you ask anybody who's born in Manhattan, they are born with sort of like a bias against Brooklyn. And I really do mean bias. There is no truth to it. Brooklyn is a great place. I can say that objectively.
32:41But I am from Manhattan. And as a Manhattanite, it's like the East Coast, West Coast rivalry in the 90s. It's like you just exist. I don't think this rivalry exists. I think you've created this rivalry. Well, you're not from Manhattan. I will tell you how many like Uber share rides I've been in where like we start talking and it turns out they're from Manhattan too. And then the conversation very quickly goes to shitting on Brooklyn. Oh, wow. You won't know because you are not a Manhattan fan. Wow. Wow. And, you know, and likewise shitting on Manhattaners. Like what like what is even there still?
33:13Like is there anything worth going to? Everything that is remotely good is here in Brooklyn. Cotton design. I don't go to Manhattan. Can't even see the sun there. also the best view as you mentioned uh coming here for the first time in greenpoint uh since the you know sort of the one time you went to madelines was um sort of the view of manhattan the the the city of the the skyscrapers beautiful view you can't see that when you're in it you have to see it from across the water but you're in it that's even better you can't see it when you're in it yeah but then you're like looking at it that's like what jersey city says like looking at pictures of like a Costa Rican getaway is better than being at a Costa Rican getaway.
33:53I love looking at pictures of Costa Rica. Have I been to Costa Rica? No, but I've looked at many pictures of Costa Rica. I'm not interested in going, but. Yeah, I wouldn't want to go. I just want to, I would want to look at it. Look at it. Pictures. You really, you really think that Manhattan is a better place than Brooklyn? I do. Well, well, well, no, I didn't say, I don't, no, no, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say Manhattan is better. I said that I have an an innate bias for Manhattan because I'm from there. But the bias is that you enjoy it more. Or you think it's better. I enjoy Manhattan more, yes.
34:25What do you like about it? No, I'm kidding. Cool. How about this? What do you like to do for fun? Talia Cotton, coder, designer extraordinaire, traveling around the world. Teacher. Teacher. We forgot about that. Kids, teach them. What do you like? What are Talia Cotton's guilty pleasures? Well, before Cotton, I was salsa dancing four times a week. Four times a week? Swing dancing. I was a competitive salsa dancer for a minute. I would hike every other weekend. Wait, let's hold up real quick. A competitive salsa dancer? It was amateur, but I was still in competitions. That's pretty sweet. That's pretty sick, yeah.
35:02Yeah, the costumes were so fun. Yeah. Yeah. How did you get into salsa dancing? When I was very young, I was working at an Italian restaurant in Soho, in Olita. And the kitchen people were all Hispanic. And I dated one of them. He was from El Salvador. And we would all just sort of like hang out the front of house, the back of house. And half the time, it would result in us sort of like hanging out at like impromptu, like salsa dancing, like things. And I was like, I love this. This is amazing. Let me take a class. And I just sort of stuck with it. You're like, I'm going pro. Sweet. So what kind of salsa competitions?
35:41Is this sort of, how does one engage? Yeah, they're like, there's these like salsa conferences that happen a couple times a year. Those sound like pretty good parties. Really, you have no idea. It's like - You think a design conference has fun. Oh, you have no idea. It's so fun. And it's, but like when I was doing these things, I was also working at Pentagram. So what I would be doing is like salsa dancing, salsa dancing, competing, blah, blah, blah. and then like going to my computer and like like responding on slack to like send a client like a campaign thing that had to be sent at midnight and it was just like yeah you don't see that too often no no not a lot of salsa dancers at pentagram i would imagine i don't know i've never worked there but um you're the first salsa dancer i've met that also designs yeah with code and teaches um so what how what uh how much salsa dance are we doing now these days zero Zero.
36:34Zero. What happened? So almost all my hobbies from before starting Cotton have been put on a temporary hold. What are the other hobbies? Anything physical. Working out, yoga, hiking. Running? I can't run. Fun fact. Get those back in the mix. Yeah. If I can give you some advice. Wait, but so most of them I said, but I'm finally back in my, we just celebrated our second birthday and I'm finally back on my workout routine. and I'm doing my stuff. So things are good. Things are great. Yeah, no, working is, especially when you work for yourself, the truth is, and only speaking from my own personal experience, you can do it every day all the time.
37:16And the to-do list never ends. It's just kind of like, how much can you chop off in any given day? So you have, like, I had to really find, it took me a long time to actually get here. It took me almost six years to be like, whoa, I have to carve out time for myself. Otherwise, it's not going to go that well. Didn't go that well for me in terms of my personal just, yeah, moving and finding that time. Because work just was all-encompassing. So it's awesome to hear that. Yeah. Good for you. Yeah, good for you that it didn't take you six years. Do you like that Drake song, Working on the Weekend, like usual?
37:50I don't know that song. Do you like, yeah, music? What kind of, outside of salsa music, are you a music enjoyer? I grew up listening to classical and jazz music. Wow. This is probably Good Dakota too. Yeah. Like WBGO. WBGO. Yeah. When I was growing up in the city, there was a station called CD 101.9. After this, I will send you or take a look at the ad for CD 101.9. It was this like tacky, like this animation of these cats and they're like singing, like snapping their fingers and whistling. And you have like Al Jarreau in the background, like boop bop, boop bop bop. And then you have Miles Davis smoking and being like, CD 101.9.
38:32Be cool. Oh, very nice. He said, be cool like me. Wow. Wow. Legendary stuff. They don't make them like that anymore. Yeah, no, they don't. They don't. There's not enough just cool guys that just smoke and do nothing else other than that. That's the real dream. Smoke and play weird, wacky jazz. That's right. Exactly. Just vibes. As far as like - Only code now. What do you do to decompress though? Because like what you just said to do is more moving, more like doing stuff. Do you like, yeah, do you chill? I'm a big fan of doing nothing and just watching documentaries. Yeah, just scrolling through my phone, you know?
39:16Yeah, we all scroll through our phone. You like reels? Just reels? God, does anyone actually like reels? I fucking love reels. What do you mean? We love reels. I would die for my reels. Yeah. What do you mean? Actually? Yeah. How much? What kind of screen time do you do? Three hours. What? Three hours? That's pretty good. We need to get that up. Rookie numbers. Rookie numbers. Jesus Christ. That sounds like a semi-healthy amount of screen time. Yeah. Why so healthy? I see that every week and I'm like, oh my God, three hours of my week are just, every day are just gone. Three hours of your week?
39:49You're talking about per day. No, per day. Three hours of my day. Oh my God. Do I chill? Of course I chill. I like movies. I like movies. I don't watch them that often, but I do. And I, oh. Sounds like someone that doesn't chill. I like, I'm a New Yorker. I'm a New Yorker. I'm a New Yorker. I'm walking here. Exactly. I'm chilling here. We don't say that. No, you're right. They're walking here. They're not doing a lot of chilling. All right. Okay. Forget about it. Exactly. There you go. Forget about it. That's the Brooklyn slogan. Yeah, yeah. When you're leaving Brooklyn, it says, you're leaving Brooklyn forget about it yeah yeah yeah she's never seen it because she doesn't come to Brooklyn well I go yeah yeah yeah I guess so um do I chill what were we talking about oh I like um I kind of just saw her eyes she was like what am I doing what did I sign up what did I sign up I could be coding right now I like I like going out I like dinners I like friends I like drinks I like staying up way too late um I guess um even though you know my workout routine got all out of whack after starting cotton and you know i don't salsa dance anymore i still you know would finish work at like seven eight nine and then be like all right like let's get started like let's you know even things out by going out and having a good time and hanging out with friends sick wow very nice this still seems like a lot of stuff yeah a lot a lot of uh she's hizzy yeah yeah that's good yeah no some of us are still young shit alright Kevin this has been a really fun episode of Fred and Sunder no you gotta have some vices we gotta have some some guilty pleasures you ever watch Real Housewives no no I love no I don't watch TV but I love Sex and the City okay that's the only thing I watch that's not a vice that's a that's a that's a prestige television I've watched I'm on my third time watching Sex and the City I don't watch any other TV.
41:44I only watch Sex and the City over and over and over. And the funny thing is I always get to that very last episode of the last season. And I've never seen the last episode of the last season. I always stop right before. And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not ready. I'm not ready for this to be over. And then I just start it all over again. That's so strange. Is that my vice? Does that like check the box? Okay, that seems like a vice. That is strange. Cannot finish Sex and the City? Yeah, are you more a Carrie or a Samantha, Talia? I used to be a Samantha and now I think I've merged into a Carrie. Wow.
42:16And you know when I realized that? When I was talking to Zapong and Zapong is like, I'm a Samantha and I'm like, oh my God, you literally are a Samantha and I can't say that I'm Samantha next to Zapong because he is so much more Samantha than I am. Yeah, I'm a Charlotte. I don't know what that means, but yeah. Wait, so you don't - That's so sweet. Thanks. Yeah, no, I just resonate with her character. Wait, which one are you? I don't know. I haven't seen it. Okay. Sorry, Mr. Big. You haven't seen the last episode? No. How many times have you seen the season without seeing the last episode? I'm in the middle of the third time watching it.
42:51Wow. And so maybe this time? Do you go into each episode every season thinking maybe I could watch them again? I don't think I will get to it this time. I'm almost done with season six. Is it like on your screen and you're like shaking with your hand? No, I can't do it. Yeah, yeah. I think you should watch it. eventually I don't know how it ends so I can't spoil it for you but I I'm do you want to unpack this yeah unpack why I haven't watched the end of why you're scared of the last you know what it might be it might be that when you when women watch sex in the city they see themselves in any of the characters not necessarily just one of them but any of them and but it's such a a a definitive period in a woman's life is that kind of age.
43:35And, um, it, it's, it's just, once it's over, it's like, it's like, you go like, I'm, I'm looking up to these women. I'm like, okay, there's still hope I can still like, you know, be a successful sexy woman in New York city. And then I just, I don't want it to end. And then maybe when I turn 45 or when I, when I turn older than the oldest person in the series, I guess when I turn older than Samantha, maybe I will then watch the last episode. Cause I got some news for you. they're still making the show. It's a different show. It's a different show. But they're older now. I know. One of them even has a podcast.
44:09That's what I've heard. Oh. Yeah. That's part of the new, you know, relevant Sex and the City modern day. Carrie has a podcast. She used to be a writer, right? So it's a natural. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. I can't do it without Mr. Big. He's so like. Did he die on the Peloton? I know. I saw the first episode on a plane. Yeah, he died on a Peloton. And Peloton was like, what the fuck? Tough, tough, tough look for Peloton. And that was actually like the second time. Didn't he saw another character, another show fall off of Peloton and die? There was a couple of Peloton instances in that time period.
44:45Shout out to the writers who were like, you know, it'd be really funny if it was a branded death moment and someone, yeah, and Peloton had to. I think we can all agree that we need more brand deaths. Yeah. 100%. No, 100%. 1000%. Which brands should have a brand death? Yeah. Wow, putting me on the spot. Yeah, good question. But like a comical one. A comical death of a brand? Yeah. No, no, no. Glossier? We're talking like death by brand. Yeah, death by brand. Like death by poppy, where you drink too much poppy and you have like dysentery. Oh, you mean like a character on the show? That would be a fun one.
45:22Yeah, death by poppy. That's a good one, death by poppy. Too much. Dysentery. Yeah, no, I actually like the idea. This was actually something that back in the day vitamin water we pitched or there was some idea that was like instead of doing more flavors, what if every year we killed off a flavor? And then fans would have to vote. It's a pretty good idea. Which ones they would want to save instead of just kind of adding and it's just like flavor eliminator. Genius. And then you bring it back in three months. Wait, whose idea was that? God, probably no clue. Good idea, right? It's hot. Yeah, no, it's hot.
45:59It was like a micro-site idea, you know, back in the day. It was like, what if it was a Facebook tab, you know, and it's an interactive digital experience where you could vote on your – we did actually some kind of interesting things. Nobody cares about this housewife. You're doing your head, Alex.
46:19I'm dedicated to finding vices here. Go for it. Junk food? You'd be very upset to – what are your top restaurants in new york right now like like sometimes if i'm having a bad day or like i needed an extra boost in the afternoon on my way here i had some chocolate covered almonds okay very nice what are your uh what advice what are your top restaurants in new york right now um oh oh shout out um so i go to pasties a lot um because the bartender there is the king of new york he's just amazing and shout him out what's his name eric adams just kidding i will i will insert name here yeah yeah that's the one that's the one that's the one that's the number one restaurant are you a regular there um there are a lot of regulars there because he just draws a lot of audience but i do like going there good for him i i think the the restaurants that i go to are less because it's like the food is amazing and like the like it's the top restaurant in new york right now and it's more like i've been here so many times they know me they can treat me well i'm friends like bffs with the bartender it's like that's the way to do it it's a very new york answer you're like oh keith mcnally restaurants where i know the bartenders and yet not putting us on yeah not yeah yeah yeah and i'm not gonna tell you about my other three favorite restaurants i'm just kidding i'll tell you about one that everyone you know knows but i like moneta tavern yeah great it's pretty good great burger yeah yeah good scene good scene good scene yeah i mean my dad there once yeah thicker thick burger right Oh, yeah.
47:47It's good. Chunky. What are you saying on Smashburgers, Talia Khan? I don't think I've had a Smashburger. Wow. That's a good - Breaking news. That's another vice. Wow. You never - A thicker burger. On your burger. This is the type of stuff we're trying to get into on this program. Talia Khan doesn't like Smashburgers. It's not that I don't like them. I've never had one. That's going to be - Oh, but - Oh, this is a controversial thing, though. Oh, yeah, yeah. Hit us with your tips. Sorry, we should have told you about the show at the beginning. This is gonna make everyone quit your podcast, I hope.
48:19Great, perfect. As you know by now, I'm from Manhattan. I don't like pizza. Oh, wow. Fuck yeah, we got there, Kevin. What the fuck, Talia Khan? You don't? I don't love pizza. I will have pizza with friends if everyone's getting it. I'm like, okay, fine, I'll have a slice. Beer pressure. Like convenience, more like. So Talia Cotton from New York City does not like pizza. That is pretty controversial. That is a fucking take, and I respect it. Thanks. What about it? Is pizza overrated? No, because that implies that it's an objective thing. Am I responding like a nerd? The nerdiest, most like - Perhaps a little bit.
49:04Perhaps like most on-brand sort of answer. Wait, what? I don't like it because I think it's too cheesy. I don't like cooked cheese. Okay. You're just not a fan of cheese. Just not a fan of cooked cheese. What do you stand on French onion soup? Oh, too much cheese. Worst, no, no, no, no, no, I can't. Yeah, no. I really can't. Yeah, no, you seem scared. I like the idea of French onion soup, but every time I try, so many times I've been to like an Irish bar and I'm like, today is the day I'm going to have French onion soup. And then I get it. I'm like, what the fuck? Like, why did I order that? Melty cheese.
49:38Yeah, I mean, I guess under that sort of guise here, you know? You got any other controversial takes you want to unload? What do you say on a mac and cheese? Good question. Yeah. I don't like the good kind of mac and cheese where it's like actually like prepared like, you know, by chefs and shit. Yeah. Too cheesy. But if it's like, you know, if I'm working super late and I haven't had dinner yet, I will get the like instant mac and cheese things that like you put in water. That's just like fake cheese. It's just like powder. It's just orange powder. Mac and powder. Mac. It's real to me, damn it.
50:14Do you like pasta? Yes. Okay. But not cheesy pasta. Correct. I don't do the parm. Red sauce. Red we love. Never parm? Never parm. Never parm. Wow. Everyone knows this about me. Everyone. Everyone knows this about me. No, no. Everyone really does. Now they do. Yeah. And now that we've gotten here in sort of the hour mark, we finally uncracked. Oh, jeez. Yeah. Yeah, doesn't, Talia Khan doesn't like pizza. I guess if you don't like cheese, then, you know, that makes stuff. But what about like, you know, sort of a grandma or some other sort of a cheeseless pizza? You know, tomato pie. Ever had that?
50:49I mean, why would you have pizza at that point? The bread and the sauce. So then have bread with sauce. Or just have pasta. Fair, fair. I mean, again, same, same general concept. If you're still listening to this podcast, God bless. Should we reign it back in a little bit? No, I like where this is going. Talia, so I guess last, you know, before we get you out of here, traveling around the world, doing talks. When did you start speaking? And what are you teaching these people out on these stages around the world? Can you teach us something? Yeah, can you teach us something? I could try. Not could.
51:30Definitely try. We don't care. I gave my first talk before I graduated. And I've sort of been doing it more and more since then. This is the first year where I've started turning down talks because it's just too much. Last year, I did 17 talks. Oh, my God. Which is a lot when you're less than two years old trying to build a business and pay your employee salaries. It's a lot. It's exhausting. It's rewarding, but only so much of the time. so um so that's that can i teach you something i don't know what do you want to learn i don't want to learn i want to learn to code i'm good kevin wants to learn how to code but i think they're just gonna have to be uh i don't i think i'm you're gonna take tally cotton's class where is it parsons parsons parsons for now uh this is a good this is a genuine question uh i am as opposed to everything up until now no those are all fake that was just warm up three two one Yeah, now that we've broken you down.
52:29Yeah, we've broken you down. We're going to do another hour. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is where it really settles in. Clear your schedule. You ever do Te Mescal? It's a thing in Mexico where they put you in a sort of just like a hut, and they just put fire and coal inside, and you just have to wait it out and last. You're asking that so casually. Like, hey, have you ever done this? I've got a question. Very specific. That's what this podcast is. because it's sort of now that the fires are starting to, the ember and you've gotten comfortable, now we start over. Great. What was I fucking talking about?
53:07Shit, oh speaking. Genuine question. Genuine question. Alex Center is gonna start teaching for the first time. Oh, congrats, where are you going? Thank you very much. SVA. Oh great. Masters in Riding Program. Oh nice. I've been a mentor for nine years. Great. Helping the kids. But I have always thought maybe one day I can teach. And I might like it. So I'm dipping my toe into the waters. Any advice? So you're asking me for advice now. I'm asking. This is a genuine question. Asking for advice. Oh, how the turns table. Your first semester is going to be, as many things are, the most. like I have no idea what I'm doing or you're going to be working the hardest in your first semester because you're going to be preparing for classes.
53:56Kevin, this is bad. No, it's really not. Working the hardest? Relative to all the following semesters. I'm going to have to reach out to Debbie and back out of this. No, it's great. As many things as I'm doing all the time, I still would never stop teaching because I don't know. I can't articulate it. it keeps you. Because it fills you up and you feel like you're helping the next generation. Are you trying?
54:29We do have this on YouTube. So can we just, Kevin, when that happened, that moment happened, can you just zoom in really close? Nice digital zoom. Yeah, maybe in the trailer. Yeah, definitely. See, we were talking about the trailer moments. You just had one. There it is. That's, you know, I was thinking about that coming up. Like, how many faces could I make in a second? That's good. That's good. But yeah, yeah. Did you do the code in your head? You're trying to figure out how many different expressions? You know. We got her, Kevin. We got her right where we got her. You're going to like it a lot.
55:01I got some advice for you, Alex. Just be yourself. Oh, wow. Thank you, Kevin. That's it. Are you nervous, actually? Yeah. Terrified. Really? Yeah. People scare me. Not just nervous. Terrified. Clients, students. People scare you. Oh, you're going to have a great time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going to adore them. The same reason that you love Liliana, you're gonna love these kids. You will have some shitty kids. Like there will be people - There will be a lot, shout out to Liliana. There will be some shitty kids who don't wanna work or who are just, you don't, but it's fun. What do you do with them, kill them?
55:35No, it's just like a really bad, I don't know if everyone's like this, but I feel like that wasn't a real question. No, it was an absolute genuine question. I am teaching for the first time. You've been a teacher and actually. Do you take pleasure in handling the difficult clients? Absolutely not. Oh, Jesus. Wait, what? No, meaning like if a client is being difficult and you still manage to find a way to have your way, are you like, I am God. No, no, no. I just give in and I'm like, whatever they want. No, really? Yeah, they got it. They got it. They're the ones in charge here. They're the ones paying for all this.
56:16They're the ones they know best. I told this before. And I couldn't tell if you're being facetious. Wow. Yeah, I was actually on a panel once at a conference, design thinker, shot him out. And it was like, what do you do when clients, you know, sort of are wrong and you really want to push back on them and you really want to like, and one by one, everyone was like, okay, this is what I do. I, you know, sort of feed them chocolate or da, da, da, da, da. And then someone's like, you got to be really firm and you got to sort of just tell them that, you know, this, if they want to be great And I was just like, never happened to be a client.
56:46I was right. Never, never, you know, just, just, just, just let them have it. Can I give you an alternate way to think about it? Well, I was once a client. Here's the thing. Okay. You have to remember this. Okay. I was once a client that was always right. So now I'm on the other side. Okay. And I'm servicing those clients. Here's my unsolicited advice. Think about it in less in terms of right and wrong, which as human beings, we often simplify things to being black and white. So it's easy to think about in terms of I'm right, you're wrong, or they're right, I'm wrong. Ones and zeros. Right?
57:19And instead, it's - That's a code joke. I got it. Let her finish. The funny thing is we don't code in ones and zeros. I hope you know that. I knew that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we totally knew that. Definitely knew that. um so instead of it being right and wrong it is it it's just uh it's a gray area it's that they have an opinion and i have an opinion and there's a way to sort of make both of those true um they're both right in a way or they're both valid and just working on merging them so we both still have our way compromise whoa wow sure but what if they're wrong um it client okay so again i it's less about how did we get here we're talking about students like you're trying to teach you're steering the ship dude okay well it's less about them being wrong because clients aren't wrong clients know the brand better than you ever will clients know the ins and outs they have a different perspective into the brand than you do.
58:23And you have a different perspective into the brand than they do. So you can teach them about what they, what the best way to communicate their ideas is. And they can educate you about what their ideas need to communicate. And it's about, it's a very good exercise in understanding opposite opinions on a daily basis. I see where you're coming from, but I think we're in the service industry, you know? And so when someone comes to sort of fix my fridge, I'm not like, here's my opinion. You have your opinion. And let's find the best way to fix this fridge together. They've asked me to fix the fridge.
59:08This isn't going anywhere. Yeah, I feel like you flipped on yourself now. I did flip on myself. No, I want to know about teaching. Kevin said all that This is going to be a big clean up job back here It'll be good This is good We're talking about I wouldn't know anything about that No this is still good This part is good But the last part Kevin and I were speaking Because you proved yourself wrong about something I want the world to know This is what I like to call A bit that I went too far down Obviously, I pushed my gun. Yeah, that's great. No problem. The person I was playing in that performance was a guy that lets his clients walk all over him.
59:56That's not who we are here. How do you think we made all this great work? There you go. It's by convincing clients to do what we want to do. And that's the real truth of it. Great. I can't read you anymore. Like right now, you're saying the opposite of what you said before. I know. That's because I was doing a bit. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you were being facetious. I was being facetious. Oh, okay. Yeah, no, of course. I like to - Okay, great. I, as a former client, like to pretend like clients are always right. Oh, okay. Because I think the average designer out there is like, clients are so dumb.
1:00:28They're so stupid. But I do think they are generally more right than they're wrong. And I don't think you should ever be like, you know, I believe it's about people coming together, like you said. And it's about finding the right answers and work, collaboration partnership and finding and having a strong point of view, but also not being strong where you think that you know better than the person whose brand their company is, which I think is what designers get wrong. The thing about clients being right is that they may be right. Clients are always right and you are always right, but what they're right about is different from what you're right about.
1:01:02They will not be right about what is the best color to represent. They aren't going to be right about what is the best color to represent this thing that communicates what I want to communicate or the best color to create a good contrast or the best typeface or whatever, but they will be right about, oh, it's not communicating what I want it to communicate versus your job, which is like, oh, if you want this thing, this is the right way to do it. This is the right strategic way to sell audiences, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, and essentially we're helping people achieve their goals. And so our job is ultimately to help them understand that our pathway is going to help them achieve their goals.
1:01:43better than the way that they think. Then you just take that and apply it to kids with teaching. Wow, Kevin. Thank you for bringing us back. So yeah, so that's what you do with the kids. So you asked about the difficult kids and - I didn't ask about the difficult kids. I just want to ask about sort of the jitters or the feeling of like, I am someone that obviously has a lot of experience and a lot to teach kids, But, you know, these young kids, they're just very confident these days. You know, they seem to think they know a lot. That's interesting. Yeah. I will say the more I teach, the more I can sense the difference in different generations, which is a little bit.
1:02:27It's an education. What were we talking about? Any advice for me teaching? I was going to ask you, do you have imposter syndrome? No. Okay. Okay, so because you talked about jitters, I'm like, what's to jitter? I just get nervous. That's not a posture. Okay, do you get nervous in front of a client presentation? Yeah, 100 % of all the time. No, really? Yeah. Are you doing a bit now? No, I'm being dead serious. Yeah, clients intimidate me. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't, see, the thing about being nervous is like, I care a lot and I want to impress. And that comes from my father. Let's break this down.
1:03:07Let's unpack that. And my childhood. And, you know, how much time do you got? No, I think someone told me this, right? I am very, so I've done some speaking in my career. And every time before I get on stage, I am thinking, why the hell did I set up this? Like, why did I do this? And then I get on stage and I get comfortable and love every second of it and come off it and feel like the weight of the world has been lifted off my shoulders. And it's that type of, I always say it's like someone who's terrified of heights that got addicted to skydiving because that joy of overcoming things is what brings me back.
1:03:55And I think the joy of sharing and presenting work to clients, there's always that fear that they're going to hate it. that doesn't happen a lot because we're so goddamn good. I'm just kidding. That's obviously a joke. Like, you know, but I do care what they think. And I think that's part of the designer experience. At least in my field of work, like I like making people happy. And I think that's part of why I do what I do. and I so of course I get nervous because I don't know if that's they they've hired us they've given us money to do the work they put a lot of trust in us they could have gone to one of a billion design studios in Brooklyn they you know I always say we're not the only design studio in this building we're also not the only design studio on this floor there's you know and that they're putting oftentimes their baby in our hands so I care and that's why I get nervous and that's why you're going to make that's why you've made such a great studio and it's why you're going to make such a good teacher because you care thank you but the the difference between clients and students is that no matter what i like i students are always going to be looking up to you like they don't it's like it's like when you are under 18 and you're like looking up to your parents and you're like you don't realize that your parents have flaws up until a certain age um 18 i just spits.
1:05:25Not my parents. But everyone thinks that their parents are perfect up until a certain age. Whatever that age is, changes. But there's sort of like that period. Students are in that phase, no matter what. No matter how good they are, no matter how sophisticated they are, they're always going to be looking up to you. And that's how it is. That was great advice. Thank you, Talia. Actually, I will think about that when I get in there. And I'm like, you know what? These kids are going to look up to me until they turn 35. But the twist is many teachers realize that after a certain point and get comfortable.
1:06:03And you, who cares, you will at a certain point sort of like chill out a little bit more than your first few semesters. You'll just sort of go in unprepared and still impact these students' lives in a good way. But it will still be from a point of caring about them, caring about their futures, making sure that you're doing the best thing that you can as a teacher. and I think that's that responsibility I think is also what gives me some fear is like I I understand the power of being a great teacher and sort of helping other people and it's like I want to do the best that I can and help them the best that I can and and and have an impact you will you will as long as you're not like um uh set in your opinions as the end all and be all of graphic design you'll be fine i think uh very clearly i have never been said in any opinion in my life great just including the one i just had but earlier no um before we get you out and that's that's what makes us good designers no exactly of course uh yeah we we got there um any any anything that uh you know sort of big dreams anything like where we're like where do you want to take this like 110 people like what's dream projects dream thing like what's what's What do you want to do?
1:07:16I don't have dream projects or dream clients, but what I'm thinking a lot about now is I have my studio. It's going great. There are a lot of graphic design studios who grow and become big and whatever. And I think if running a studio is all I do by the time I'm 50, I don't think I will be happy. so I'm already kind of thinking about what are the other things outside of the studio life in graphic design and also outside of graphic design that I can do I don't know what that is yet but that's the big dream. Sounds like you need a podcast Thank you Talia for coming on the show It's been an honor and a pleasure Where can they find you?
1:08:01Stuck the landing Thank you Kevin. Find me at Pastis No Wow. At the bar. Find me at the bar. I don't get that drunk. I really don't. But that checks out, I guess. Dirty martini. Yes. Gin or vodka. Gin or vodka. Do you drink? Let's go. Thank you, everyone. Three, two, one. Are we done? All right. Oh, my God.
1:08:38Thank you.
1:09:06. . .
1:09:38Thank you.
From the publisher
Talia Cotton is a designer, coder, and educator who is recognized as a leading specialist in the intersection of design and technology. In 2023 she founded Cotton, a creative agency pursuing purposeful design work with code. Talia also teaches intro and advanced coding at Parsons School of Design. She has been recognized by The One Club, TDC, Fast Company, and It's Nice That, and has inspired audiences around the globe on The Cotton Global worldwide tour.
Talia joins us today to teach us about code and how she and her studio of like-minded designers use it to make excellent work. Their work is as unique as their approach. They are a pioneer agency in this exciting and emerging way of working creatively with code. We were thrilled to sit and talk with her about everything going on in her life and unpack why she has watched Sex and the City three times through, and never the final episode. Enjoy!