Here's how financial services can address the advice gap and help women join the profession

0:00Hello and welcome to this latest episode of Tea with the FT Advisor in association with the Women's Wealth Alliance. I'm Simoney Kyriakou, editor of FT Advisor. And I'm Vanessa Barnes. I'm the chair of the Women's Wealth Alliance and sit on the board of the Consumer Duty Alliance and the founder of Hane Wealth LLP. And today we're joined by Charlotte Wheeler, who's a senior wealth manager at JPMorgan PI and a member of the CII's New Generation programme. Welcome. Yeah, well done. Well, we're talking all things sort of hiring and retention today. So actually, let's start off. How did you guys get into financial services?

0:33So I actually had, when I was 15, I actually had a family friend that was in financial services. And she invited me to this kind of day out to London. It was kind of this female empowerment event. And I just remember going and meeting all of these amazing women, not just in being financial advisors, but some of them were power planners, some of them worked in marketing, all within the financial services space. and I remember coming back from that day saying that's kind of what I want to do in terms of I found out a lot of amazing stories how they've been helping people and how I guess people are at the centre of financial services so yeah that's how I kind of fell into it I guess.

1:11It's wonderful to have that kind of word of mouth that that sort of familial or friendship connection because so many people don't have that and they just sort of fall into financial services in the end I mean that was one of the findings from the Women's Wealth Alliance survey wasn't the how many was it 90 93 of female financial planners would recommend it to other women but the perception from outside that looking in was much much lower it's like around about the 50 mark so the important thing is that is to try and mend that disconnect and to get the message out there that it is a great career for women and the women that were in financial planning felt supported by their male colleagues they felt they had opportunity and they felt they had flexibility and they felt that the rewards were good.

1:50So everything was a plus, plus, plus. But from the outside looking in, people don't see it as a job for women. Yeah. Still. Well, exactly. But it's so fantastic that you had someone who sort of took you to see what it could be like. And to meet all these amazing people who have stories to tell about this brilliant, caring, people-facing profession. Like, it's just not something that we tend to be aware of. No. Yeah, I know. And I just think that the power of sharing our experiences. I mean, I had another friend that I actually played netball with on the course, and we were chatting about her current role in actually the role that I'm doing now.

2:28And she talked all about how she's helping people and empowering people and just having that connection and sharing our experiences, the power of that and, yeah, driving more women into financial services, really. Do you think that message is getting out there? I think that it's definitely improved in recent years. I think there's so much more that we can can do I think I saw a stat that about I think it's around 19 percent of financial advisors are women so I still think there's so much more we can can do and actually in my role I have a lot of women that ask for women financial advisors because I think that we have that empathy we have that kind of magic touch so I think there's yeah I think we're definitely improving it but I think to even at 11 playing field there's so so much more we can do I think you can get empathetic men as well, but I think women should have the choice.

3:18That's the difference. I mean, 19 % is based on estimates. It's naughty, we don't even. I mean, it'd be great to see the results of the FCA's latest request for information, because they did ask this time round, how many women do you have in your firm, and how many women in a joint relationship and single women do you have in your client profiles. And that would be really interesting, because with 60 % of wealth being in the hands of women, this year the estimate is and only 19 % of the financial advisors being women there's a disconnect there isn't a choice available to a lot of women and I think it's about improving that and I think I think the FCA have that in their sites and we as a profession should have that in our sites as well.

3:59Yeah absolutely I go into a lot of schools as a journalist but I'm also a member of the the GDST alumni network I go into a lot of schools I speak to girls and I often say to them you know have you ever heard of a financial advisor maybe one and these are from very wealthy families so it the likelihood is that they will have had a financial advisor or the families have them and maybe only one or two put their hands up and someone say they're not sure so they don't even know what a financial advisor actually does so it's kind of nice for me to go in as a journalist and then say you know well actually our readers are financial advisors this is what they're excited by this is what they do and hopefully give them a little flavor of how their job could actually not just be financial journalism, which obviously I'm there to promote, but it could also be financial advice, financial planning.

4:47So they suddenly realise there's something out there that could be for them, but it's not something that's usually on their cards, right? It's not something that they think of. And sometimes I think also in these schools, they're sort of very much pushed towards a university route rather than thinking of taking an apprenticeship. so perhaps also that promotion of apprenticeships or another route into the industry not something that they they're always aware of I mean do you guys take on interns at JP Morgan do you have a lot of like a cohort of young people coming in bright-eyed and bushy-tailed yeah absolutely we do have internships available but even kind of then that some of them aren't even aware about what financial advice actually means and how you can help people I think there's a quite a connotation that you have to be good at maths.

5:37Well actually, yes okay numbers have partly to do with it but it's much more about the connection that you've got with people and yeah so we do have a number of internships but even then not all of them are aware of how much kind of yeah financial advice can bring in terms of different career paths. So Vanessa when it comes to you and your route into financial services you actually start off in the NHS. Had you even heard of financial advice no no not at all I think um my parents had a neighbor who sold endowments right I seem to remember a vague meeting at some point we don't want to talk about endowments no this is a long time ago no I worked in scientific research for three years and I just wanted to try business I wanted to do something completely different and I felt I'll jump out for six months give it a go and if it doesn't work out then I will come back to science and it did work out I answered an advert in what was then the evening standard and um or the evening news something like that and i just stayed and i loved it and i think it's a great career for women you know flexibility and all the opportunity that you have what was it about the the advert if you can remember i don't know remember all the way back what was it about the advert that sort of that that piqued your attention because we do hear sometimes that adverts are not that appealing to women it was money actually it's about the money I'd worked in the NHS and where you don't get any money so it was kind of thinking well let's have a look at and it was easy you could just make a phone call and I thought and I think that's just talk to somebody so that was quite easy it wasn't a complicated application structure so I rang them they were they became a national firm and they said come along and we'll give you I think in those days you got six weeks uh two hours a week training and then you're a financial advisor you didn't have to do anything else in those days it was it I was fully qualified from the from the get-go but they they did talk about what they were trying to do they're a relatively young company and I spoke to a director who was very visionary about how financial advice should be delivered and I think that's what I was attracted by more than what actually financial advice was because I didn't understand anything no you caught that enthusiasm you caught the vision from that person who was able to explain it to you yeah I think that that idea of a phone call that idea of actually being able to talk to someone about what financial advice is before you start thinking about the CV or applying for jobs it's really fantastic there are some good companies out there now that will actually help you make their transition or sort of tell you you know maybe go through the academy route or maybe go through this apprenticeship route but I don't know how well we're doing at promoting those things I don't think we do at all which is why we've just produced a career guide and it will cover everything from financial planning, compliance, para planning, coaching, all those different areas and what kind of skills you need, what transferable skills you might be looking at, taking the maths out of it and saying well actually there's lots of other things you can do and we're targeting that.

8:37Now what we want to do is try and build a network and encouraging people to deliver that digitally to as many people as they know because it's no point giving it to each other because we all know it's great job yes we've got to get out there to careers advisors and schools and deputy head conferences and things like that and actually get the profession recognized i think that's what's really important that it is now a profession and it is a an opportunity we are a bedrock within the community a lot of communities um at the moment and i think financial advice has changed during my career it's become it hasn't it's moved from transaction to service and I think once you start explaining that to people it becomes much more attractive to younger people and to more women which is what we need yeah I've actually got two colleagues one that was a doctor and the other of a teacher and actually in their kind of mid-30s they decided to make that transition to financial advice and I asked them you know what made you do the change and one of them was saying that it's just they want to help people and well you get that through the docs and the teacher but you know it wasn't working out for them and they've absolutely loved the transition they've had those transferable skills over and also yeah they're really enjoying that they've made that change as well but yeah definitely need more work to get get this profession out there and both of those professions obviously being people professions they have got the skills you're right it's that being able to explain complicated things in a simple way to people whether it's teaching children or whether it's speaking to people about complicated medical conditions if you can take the jargon you know you were talking about sort of maths yes it's a maths thing it's a money thing it's sometimes it's quite technical but if you can take something technical and break it down simply then really it's also a translator's job it's an interpreter's job all of these things involve people and that human side how good are we or i should say how good are you at conveying that to the wider public?

10:40Good question. I think, again, I think there's still so much more that we can do. I think a lot of people think that financial advice is just for the rich. What I'm trying to do at the moment is really make financial advice accessible for everyone. Because of that, you need financial advisors that can speak to everyone and anyone. I think there's definitely much more work to be done to break down these barriers. and actually you know the the wider the wider variety of people that you have as advisors the more we can outreach you know the wider variety of the uk population really so i think yeah again we're making inroads but there's so much more that we can do to improve so tell us a little bit about the new generation program and your involvement with that yeah so i applied oh it's about a year ago now um and got told about that they're setting up this is the first time they've done it but setting up a programme for around 25 to 35 year olds, across many different businesses to come together and create a project to effectively improve financial planning.

11:39And what we're trying to do is create a toolkit to get out to kind of schools, universities, and also kind of return to other workers as well to break down these barriers and get that message out there around financial planners. Because yeah, as we've been saying, just a lot of people aren't even aware of the profession, let alone the benefits that it brings. So it's been a great project. Well, we've still got five more months to go, but also just to meet lots of other advisors and different firms through the challenges that they're also facing, networking. And yeah, it will again help expand my network, which is invaluable really.

12:17So these projects from the new generation and from the Women's Wealth Alliance, they sound absolutely fantastic and they'll be great tools and resources for all firms to use. but it's not just about sort of hiring or sort of showcasing how great a job it is to to women you've also got to get women into the interview process and then keep them in the firm right so how good are companies at that retention problem and sort of a bit further on you know we'll go into this like are we then just sheep stealing from each other rather than getting new people in and train them up there's definitely a shortage because we're still at the 19 i think well the women that we interviewed when we did a survey of why there aren't isn't better representation all said they felt very supported by male colleagues but you know some of the members of facebook groups that talk about things that happen and there's still some bad actors out there but in general women feel well supported and by their male colleagues so there's lots of good news to celebrate but also I think we need to look at the structures I mean I worry about particularly with returners to work often they will need a steady salary because they've already committed on either with a family or with mortgages and if if the model is that you earn very little because you're based on whatever business you're writing then it's very difficult for people to make that transition so I think we need to look at bursary programs I think for people.

13:42I mean there are companies out there who have done very well and I think they need to take step up and take more responsibility for encouraging more people into the profession. And what about that sort of professional angle as well? You know it isn't just the case of making a few phone calls and then grabbing a client or selling endowments. It's about this profession you can be really well qualified and you don't need to be qualified before you become a member of a financial services team but in order to become a professional financial advisor you do have this professional path I think that's really attractive for someone even if they're returning to to work you know you're a second careerist you're trying to work after a career break as a woman if I'd had to take time off for my children and then come back into the workplace I'd want to feel that I've got a progression in place and that someone is committed to me as a woman they're not going to say as has been said to me before oh I can't really put you in a position of authority because you might go off and have kids now that's been said to me to my face in an interview that was before the 2010 Equality Act but you know there's that sort of mentality sometimes people are afraid that that's going to be said to them or they're not going to be progressed or they're not going to be supported financially through exams so I mean I don't know what firms can do to kind of offset that I think some of them are getting more involved in apprenticeship programs because that's that's the ideal combination isn't it but sometimes people don't like the thought of being an apprentice maybe if they're 35 so I think it's trying to find other avenues where people can be supported and also to look at salaried positions I mean some firms are better at that than others but it is about doing some research if you think that's the area you want to go into you have to do some research because they do vary very very widely and I think if we can forgive ourselves a little bit it is a young profession I mean you could argue it wasn't a profession until the retail distribution review because up until then you were employed by you know a wealth manager or an insurance company and on their and you've negotiated with them as to what your remuneration was going to be now it's completely different it's directly with your client so that was the first part of the transition and there are some people that argue that there needs to be further evolution on how that fee structure is works but I think it is relatively and we've moved so far in quite a short period of time it's about paying catch-up now and thinking well actually if we are going to be representative of society we have to look like the society we're serving and we just don't do that right now and it's not just about women it's also about minorities and backgrounds and it's about diversity in lots of other ways it isn't just you know gender so I think we've got to keep the pace up and keep those changes because we need to reflect the people that we serve yeah it'd be horrible to hire someone who's amazing but then just not be able to keep them I mean that just sounds and then would they ever take another job in financial services or would they say not for me that sounds quite frightening really yeah I think I've worked at kind of a few various different firms and with all of them they've been really supportive in my career development with exams a lot of them have you know offered to pay for exams give me time off work and I've actually had conversations with my managers say look I've got this impending workload I've got to do six exams in the next six months and I do feel that when you've got firms that will back you and challenge you and want to support you in your career development you know that's I think that's sometimes even more important than sometimes pay for example because you're like wow these people are backing me and i all the managers i've had have been really supportive um and always have said yeah if you need you know a couple of extra hours to focus on your exam and so i think companies have come a long way um yeah in supporting especially kind of females and and in career but that comes to the culture doesn't it i think it does it absolutely it comes from the top and if they're interested in wanting to have a better representation because they know that that's where wealth sits as well and if 60 percent of wealth is in the hands of the UK it is in the UK is in the hands of women you want female advisors and para planners you want your profile to be female friendly because otherwise why would women choose you why would they come to you so I think that they realize that it also costs a lot of money to recruit and it costs a lot of money to train you said people pay for your exams they give you study time all of those things are very expensive if you go through that whole process and then you actually don't embed people within your structure well, you don't mentor them properly, you don't coach them, all of those things, then they're going to go somewhere else to get those things.

18:18Because one of the other things that came out of our survey was that women wanted more coaching and mentoring for different parts. They wanted coaching for their skill set and they wanted mentoring from senior women to know how they could get there and how they could balance external demands with their career structure and things like that. And I think we've got to get better at structuring that. Yeah, absolutely. And we've seen that as well in some of the research that we've covered on FT Advisor, that women who are very successful often end up then saying, well, I don't want to be in this employed environment because it's not for me.

18:50So they'll go and set up their own financial advice firm, which is amazing because, you know, they're still in financial advice. But then it means that that financial advice firm is without that woman or without some senior people. but it's because, and every time I've interviewed those women, it's because they wanted a better work-life balance or because they were having children and it wasn't conducive to that kind of previous working environment. Or they wanted more autonomy, but they weren't being given it. So I think there is still perhaps some inherent unintentional, completely unintentional bias to something that a structure that was set up and generally benefited people who didn't have caring responsibilities.

19:30opportunities yeah which is unfortunately yeah targets that's what the word is isn't it because that's what happens a lot of the time it's what happened to one of my colleagues where she was told well you've got to ask yourself is this a job you can do on a part-time basis and the answer is yes you can but not if someone's giving you a full-time target so it's that culture within the business you know it's the culture within the business whether they recognize that whether they recognize targets at all that's one big question we could talk about for about three hours and then within that whether or not you recognize that your life pattern might be different to somebody else's life pattern.

20:01And the good firms do, and they want to retain those women and they will accommodate flexible working pattern or partly working from home or whatever it might be. And they will accommodate the fact that for a certain particular part of your working life, you may have other commitments and that you therefore need to... And also sometimes I think it's cultures within firms that recognise sometimes it's OK to say no. If someone offers you a promotion and you say, well, actually, this is the wrong time in my life to step up because I've got this happening, I've got that happening, then actually, but in two to three years' time, I can see myself beyond this stage.

20:35And actually, for a firm to accept that and think, no, that's fine, we're with you and give you support during that period, I think is really important. That's a really interesting point of view there because people don't often feel empowered to say no. They think if I say no, then I've basically blotted my copybook. Actually, that might not be something that young people understand. I might have accidentally ghosted my opportunities or not pass the vibe check, I think is what the young people say. But there is also this kind of this inherent culture as well. And we've been trying to work away from that over many decades, I should think, that the old kind of let's all go to the pub on a Thursday and stay out really late.

21:13And, you know, the people who can't stay out late because they've got caring responsibilities, well, they aren't the people that are team players. There has been that sort of mentality across every industry, no doubt across every industry, which I think has improved vastly. But I still sometimes see it when I hear from financial advice firms. They say, well, there's only two of us. We're only two financial advisors. We're both male. How can we possibly hire a woman? And I sort of actually understand that point of view. I feel that I get that. They can't suddenly take on another member of staff because that's really expensive.

21:50Why should they have to take on another member of staff? But what do you then say to them? how do you then encourage them to be more female friendly or to be more female focused? Or do you even think about maybe we can take on an intern or work experience? I mean, how do you go about encouraging them to? I think they need to look at the wider contacts they have. They might have, you know, other professionals involved in their business. So do they use women in those roles? Can they talk to them? So if your accountant's a woman or if your legal advisor is a woman, then there's possibly ways of building networks in that way I think is quite important.

22:25And yes, I mean, you might as well say to take on somebody full time is really expensive, but maybe taking somebody on for two days a week isn't. And it may be somebody who wants to learn or somebody who wants to get back into the workplace. So there's connections that could be made there. And I also think that people's, I mean, this thing about, you know, oh, I can't hire a woman in case she wants to have a baby or something like that. You know, if you're a small firm, you get most of the money back. You know, you're not crippled financially because you have to pay maternity leave. it doesn't work like that you get a credit on your national insurance and you do get the money back so i think again that's an educational process and so on but look at what it might bring you look at the positive side of the opportunity and the fact that you can communicate well we understand what women's lives are like we understand it's stop start and it could be demanding it might be you're on the back foot and and our firm is committed to that and if the firms that get it right it's a business it isn't a female issue it's a business It's a business issue.

23:20It's a business issue. Absolutely. Because if you don't do that, you will lose those female clients because they'll look at it and think, well, you actually don't understand. You don't look like us. You don't understand us. I don't feel empowered to talk to you. It's like you said, you feel empowered within your firm. That's making you committed to them. And it's exactly the same with clients. Yeah. And I just think also from, you know, I've had so many clients that said, oh, actually, I wanted to speak with you. So they picked, you know, we have a website full of our biographies. You know, I wanted to speak to a female.

23:49might I feel more open, you know, especially when you have like divorce cases and things, they might actually feel more comfortable speaking to females. And I think from getting a different client base as well, you can really target, you know, we can use our network. So I think, yeah, we generally, they should just try and be more open really to target and make it more flexible for women as well. So flexibility obviously is very key, mentoring, support, short professional career development. What other things do you think are very specifically attractive to women in a professional environment that would encourage people to join and stay at a company and to give their loyalty to a company?

24:31Yeah I think it's a bit cliche but I think it's the word having fun. So when you go to work and you're looking forward to going to work and you've got people in your workplace that aren't just colleagues and acquaintances but they're friends and you actually look forward to seeing them um and you know you're not just sat there at your computer all day but you're you're having fun with it I think you know most of us have to work for well maybe even 50 60 years so you don't just want to have to see it's a grind so I think having a creating a culture where you know you you we do certain events and maybe you go and play sports or whether it's having lots of coffee chats and just having yeah having fun with it I mean I not all the time do I leave work you know with a smile on my face but I would say the majority of it you had that feeling in your stomach where you're like I did a good job today I really enjoyed it I'm connecting with people in the office and growing really.

25:23And that's going to be reflected in how you speak to your clients right? Exactly. Because we are human sometimes we have bad days you don't particularly want to be going out and seeing lots of clients on a day when it's a really bad day but but but how do you do that how do you convey that sense of joy then to your clients? I think it's because it's really nice to help people. You know, when you, you know, somebody asked me, I do tend to sometimes just mix it up. I mean, people say, what do you do for a living? I fill in forms. Or once I said, I help people sleep at night. You know, because that's what you do.

25:54People come and they're worried about something and you sort it out. You untangle the worry. You find what the worry is. You look at how they're going to solve it and then you put that plan together for them and they go away and they're happy because they now, you know, people say things like you know you I want to die before you because I can't envisage I can't envisage you not being there when I need help because you get so intimately involved often you're the first person to know they're ill or they've got something wrong with them or they've got troubles in their life you become very very drawn in you you see their children grow up from children to adults and sometimes they become clients which is a bit weird it's a bit like policemen looking younger you just remember this person as a toddler and now they're your client um and I just think you if you are interested in people you always find something you can do for them then that gives you joy in your own life I think yeah I always have I remember having one client that she was really upset because she recently lost her job and she was like you know I'm gonna have to try and find a new job I don't want to work you know I've been working for 45 five years um it's just but i can't afford to retire and she was kind of going down that lane and actually we did a holistic plan and we worked out a way that she could actually retire and not only that but go on two or three holidays a year and she said you completely changed my life and i always yeah go away remembering that that we do change people's lives really um yeah and that's i think also that has changed with the way that financial advice has changed as well it's a lot more on the softer skills um and less on just you know there's always a phrase saying you know we help the rich get rich and i really think that's changed so much in the last 25 30 years did you tell your client to train as a financial advisor yeah i could have actually i i could have i mean she was very set on that she wanted to retire and she was i think she didn't have a great last experience in the last time and she wanted to you know just relax a little bit but maybe i could even get in contact after this you never know but sometimes your clients then become your greatest advocates don't they and they're the ones that will sort of bring new clients to you um do you ever think that perhaps your clients children could become financial advisors do you ever give them work experience i don't know just just a thought they're throwing that up yeah well actually now you say that i had a client um it was about two weeks ago that we were having a chat and i was helping him with his finances and he said oh do you mind just having a chat with my daughter she's um you know in the last stages of university she doesn't really know what to do but you know could you speak to her and actually I spoke to her and I actually looked over her CV and actually helping her with that such as an example of someone even two weeks ago um and I just yeah it's a it's an industry that is not going anywhere and it's going to continue to expand but there is an increasing shortage of financial advisors so um yeah and hopefully the more value that we give the more that we can speak to the children and grandchildren and help them get into financial advice, really.

28:54Yeah, because you want them to be your advocates, just as much as you're advocating for financial services right now. It's the best type of marketing you can have. Well, it is, isn't it? Because if someone speaks on your behalf about you, then you don't have to advertise. That's being done for you. Well, that's a really positive note to end on. So your consumers can become your biggest advocates, but they might also become the next generation of financial advisors. For more information on the Women's Wealth Alliance or for more on women's wealth, visit deftyadvisor.com.