'If regulation is stopping women from becoming financial advisers, why?'

0:02Simoney Kyriakou: Welcome to the latest FT Advisor Editor's Podcast with me, Simoney Kyriakou. From scientific research to heading up a financial planning business, Vanessa Barnes's career path into professional financial services is not the traditional one. With an undergraduate degree in zoology and animal biology, the teenage Vanessa may not have believed she would one day become a strong champion for women in UK financial advice. Although, of course, some advisors might say there's a correlation between understanding animal behaviour and consumer behaviour traits when it comes to investing. But we won't be getting into that here.

0:36Simoney Kyriakou: As many of you will know, Vanessa is not just the founder of Hanay Wealth. She's also chairing the newly formed Women's Wealth Alliance, a working group of the Consumer Duty Alliance. And she is passionate about getting more women into financial services. And she's here to talk with FT Advisor about the Women's Wealth Alliance and the survey that has just been launched. This aims to provide some solid research on career opportunities for the next generations of female financial advisors. Welcome Vanessa. Thank you. So let's start off with what is the Women's Wealth Alliance? Well, we're a working group that sits within the Consumer Duty Alliance that wants to focus on two different perspectives.

1:15We want to look at women investors and look at how we can improve things for access and the quality of the service they get. and we also look in our own profession thinking well how do we get better representation because we think one of the reasons that women are perhaps a little bit more reluctant to come forward and certainly that's what there's been a lot of focus of research on consumers and there are less women willing to come forward and we think maybe one of those reasons is actually the fact that they don't really see themselves represented within the profession so it's about trying to improve both sides of that coin.

1:48Simoney Kyriakou: So how did you get involved? Were you volunteered? I was by Keith Keith Richards, yes. I mean, I'd known Keith for many years, and so it was something we've talked about a lot. His quote that I've used a few times to me once was, no man ever starts off in his profession wanting it to be 80 % male, but that's where we are. So what are we going to do about it? So it was those kind of conversations that led to us thinking about, well, you know, we need to do something. And I've been here a long time, and I feel not much has changed. There's been a very slow creep in financial planning. There has been improvement in other areas.

2:27And the profession itself has been completely transformed. From where I started to where it is now, it's really, really different. But the representation in planning is still not good.

2:39Simoney Kyriakou: Yeah. And of course, it's not deliberate, like you say. It just seems to be a status quo. And that status quo then sort of becomes a sort of self-perpetuating prophecy, really, doesn't it? And that's one of the reasons we wanted to do the survey, because, you know, lots of people like talking about this subject. You know, I meet people and we end up drifting onto this. And I hear the same sort of things again and again about how people came into it. It's usually because they know somebody or they've found it through accident. No one seems to actually know about the profession. You know, there really isn't a great deal of presence, I think, amongst career advisors, you know, senior teachers, that kind of population don't seem to be aware of our profession.

3:22So I don't think it's flagged. It's changing a little bit. It's interesting because my daughter is just finishing and actually she has about two or three friends in their circle who are looking at financial planning.

3:35Simoney Kyriakou: That's great. Yes. And I don't know whether that's because they've been talking about it or what. I don't know. But one of the reasons we want to do the survey is to get some firmer data, because as much as you talk to people, it's in your area. And there may be more people out there who have come at it from a completely different way. And is it generational? Are the younger people looking at it more? We really want to look at the truth of how people have got here, where they are now, where they want to go. and are there any problems in their journey or do they see any barriers to getting where they want to go?

4:12Simoney Kyriakou: Yes, and of course a perceived barrier is just as problematic as an actual barrier. And sometimes there aren't actual barriers there, it's just the perception and perhaps we need to break down that perception and just kind of bust a few of the myths. Because when I speak to the financial advisors, the readers of FT Advisor, yes, the majority of our readers are men, but they're all really keen on hiring women and being diverse and they've all got female clients who absolutely love them. So clearly there's a perception versus reality myth that we need to bust in the wider general population. Yes, because one of the issues that's happening, particularly with the boomer population, is that women are inheriting a lot of money or divorcing their husbands and ending up with a pot of money and 60 % of them change financial advisor when that happens.

5:04So from a point of view of advisors, we want to look at retaining those women but also making sure that the advice profession understands the vulnerabilities and how to cope with them. And there's all sorts of other issues that touch on it from lots of different directions. You know, I've been doing a lot of work recently about coercion and looking at the pressure there is on women to be the bank of mum and distribute wealth perhaps in advance of their own needs. And there's a lot of academic work being looked at at the moment as well. So I think it's using our profession to help protect people and also to make the profession aware of some of the issues that are going on ahead of the curve.

5:54It's not just about looking at women in isolation as clients. It's about the wider picture.

6:00Simoney Kyriakou: Yes, of course. So I think there's a huge amount. This survey is the start, I think, of our journey as the Women's Wealth Alliance. It's really important because we want to look at where we need to focus our attention. But we also want to look at how we improve the lives of female consumers. Absolutely. So I'm just going to stick with this survey because obviously I've been involved in some of the conversations around it. and from a perspective of a financial journalist we get surveys all the time saying you know 65 % of women say x or 12 % of women would only go to a female financial advisor that sort of thing and a survey can just be a flash in the pan a few numbers it might even rile up a few people thinking not the same old thing again but this survey that the Women's Wealth Alliance is doing is different isn't it it's really practical could you talk about some of the really practical outcomes that we're hoping to get out of this survey?

6:53There actually isn't any data out there about females in personal finance. There has been work on women in banking, women in insurance and asset management, but very, very little to nothing on personal finance. So what we want to look at is the position that people are in, how they got there. Because if, for example, if the evidence points towards the fact that 90 % of people have got here because they knew somebody, well then we realise that the profile of the presence of women in personal finance is wrong and that's the bit we have to fix if everybody knows about financial planning but they don't want to be it because they perceive regulation to be an issue and they don't want to be regulated people well that's something we have to go to the regulator about and say well look if if you want a truly diverse personal finance profession and to close the advice gap you're going to have to have women in there and if regulation is what's stopping it why is it stopping it I mean I've got some ideas about that but is it so if unless you ask the question and know what it is that is the perceived barrier there's no way that you can either knock down the perception or actually find there is a real barrier and we have to change it so one of the reasons we want to find out how people got here to look at that because if we can find out what's working we can also use that to broadcast and say well if this is working we need to do more of it and they run a little threads I mean one of the things I've noticed anecdotally is the rise of the female coach and is that about regulation is that about the fact that it's seen as a new profession and very attractive to women is it the fact that you're talking about coaching rather than arranging actual plans or investments

8:41Simoney Kyriakou: is that what's attractive to women? And is that part of the rise of Generation Z and Generation Alpha coming up? You know, the TikTok generation, people who like to sort of showcase their expertise on social media. And I mean the good people showcasing their expertise on social media, the positive ones. And I think, you know, financial coaching is certainly quite attractive to a lot of young people because they feel they're doing something societally good. And from the conversations I've had with Gen Z, they want to do something that has value and meaning and a greater societal good, not just something that offers them a salary.

9:16Simoney Kyriakou: As one of my own Gen Z staff said to me, I really like this vibe here at FT Advisor. I like the vibe. So we passed the vibe check, everyone, so that's good. But it's about that vibe. It's about that zeitgeist that I want to give something back to society as well as earn money. Well maybe that's one of the things we need to look at in the evolution of personal finance because if that generation who will serve their own peers in time is looking at giving back in that way then we have to use that to structure part of the personal finance profession to do that. because what we need to do then is it's not about regulating it it's about structuring it so that people can see it so they know what they want to be and also people can access not just necessarily through TikTok you know there's other things that we need to do and as you said the good ones so there's a question mark over that yes and recognition and so on and then through that there is another problem that arises because if you do the coaching and you don't arrange the transactions?

10:24Who does?

10:25Simoney Kyriakou: Yeah, of course. So do we need verified hubs of some sort that you can feed into? You know, this could totally put personal finance upside down. It might not be about assets under management anymore. It might not be that at all. So we need to be ahead of that curve. And unless we get some data about what people want and how they got here and what they want next, it's really difficult to look at the changes. Of course. Does financial planning pass the vibe check i mean that's exactly and if it does we need to get that message out there don't we you know if if if the coach position or that kind of uh customer service related part of it is what's calling out to younger people then we need to look at how we get that to a broader population i think

11:23Simoney Kyriakou: and we're also looking at power planners aren't we insurance brokers mortgage brokers as sometimes people might enter the industry um not mortgage brokers i think but insurance brokers you know they might enter the industry because they're interested in insurance or signing off cover but then they might want to move on and do more exams so yeah all of that because you do I mean we've all fallen into jobs you know sometimes when you're younger and it's part-time and you try all sorts of different things and other things is because you think you're going to I mean I came into it thinking I'll give it six months yeah so you were sort of late 80s wasn't it you joined financial advisors can you tell me a bit about your career journey because you were studying animal biology and zoology and then suddenly you're a financial advisor yeah it was that sudden it was that sudden so after I graduated and I graduated during one of those eras when graduate employment was really was really difficult but I managed to get a job in the pharmacology department for the what was then the Royal Postgraduate Medical School it's now part of Imperial College and it was almost like carrying on at college it was you know a young department and it was very exciting they did lots of papers and I really enjoyed it but it was within the structure of the NHS and I thought I don't think this is for me you know it was very much kind of you're on your path for 40 years and I thought I think I want something different and I wasn't as committed to the science I mean if I was going to stay in science that wasn't the science I wanted to be in but there were very few jobs and I thought I'm going to try something I'm going to try business I'm going to be a business person without any experience or anything and I applied for a job in the Evening Standard.

13:02It was one of those. And I went for an interview and just thought, this sounds really interesting. I'll give it six months. And here I am.

13:12Simoney Kyriakou: Did you feel at the time that you were a young woman working in a very male dominated industry or did that not matter to you at the time? I was aware of it, but I started with Chase Devere and it's very early days and it was mostly young people. And there were women there. I mean, I've still got friends from there now it was more male but they were all young and they were my generation and actually very welcoming so I never had some of the issues that women have in a very strong male environment I didn't feel I had there were others I mean management was always male and that was probably one of the two major reasons I left was that it was just a boy I felt there was an element of a boys club about it so you didn't see yourself becoming one of the managers and never no no and I was I wasn't yeah I wouldn't have fitted I was a square peg in that round hole I think from that point of view I knew that and I knew that I wanted to do something for myself and I felt I could do it differently I'd had really good training there really good training and I loved working with a young group of people you know people my own age all of that was great but I thought I was ready for something different and I wanted to carry on working with clients on a day-to-day basis I didn't want to be part of the well you know you see them for 10 minutes and then somebody else does the work I felt at that stage I felt I still had a lot to learn so I decided to go out on my own I did go for a couple of interviews and I thought just I just I was driving across Richmond Bridge and I thought I'll look back and I'll wonder would I have made it I'm going to try it on my own and it took about six months but it was quite a simple procedure the most difficult thing is getting references because it's not letting people know that you're going and things like that but we got around that one other person left at the same time and it was a relatively simple procedure and then within six months you get a visit from the FCA and they sort of check that you know what you're doing and that you've got files and you've got some sort of structure.

15:24And that was it. About five years ago, I changed to an LLP. And I measured the paperwork and it was 12 centimetres thick. And I think that might be one of the problems.

15:39Simoney Kyriakou: Do you think that might be preventative of any entrepreneur, male or female right now, who might want to be going at a loan in their local area as a financial planner? I definitely think that's a problem. But hopefully the survey will tell us that. But I think, I mean, it was painful. It was COVID. So there was an element of having to do things, you know, slightly remotely. But I found it an interesting exercise because if I had to do that now from scratch and the amount of time it takes. and it is really important that regulated people are properly verified. I understand that. But there's also quite a repetitive nature of some of this and sometimes people feel they're filling in the same form or very similar information several times a year rather than just being able to do it once.

16:32Simoney Kyriakou: Like the insurance companies, they would say, just tell us once and then we'll carry the information across. That doesn't seem to happen. No, I think there's an element of that. I think there's an element of that that's been recognised by the regulator and I think they are trying to do that, especially towards smaller firms. But I think there's more to be done and I think there needs to be more structured mentoring and taking people... Because it's very daunting, you know, some of these things that you have to declare and go through, like any vetting system, it can be quite daunting and I think it's enough to put people off.

17:06but it but if you can get through it it's such a great profession for women this is the thing that frustrates me the most you know you can be flexible you know we've been through the cycle of you know having a family having elderly parents that yes dementia and all of those issues and i've been able to work my job around them it's not always been easy but i've been able to do that you can get you know your your remuneration package can be you know amongst some one of the highest and and it gives you the ability to pursue other other interests as well and I really like financial planners they're really interesting people to talk to you know the conferences and seminars that you go to it's great catching up with people and looking at how and they make you

17:53Simoney Kyriakou: look at things from different perspectives I love it and I love speaking to financial advisors who are based outside of London you know whether in Yorkshire or Northern Ireland or Aberdeen because you get different flavors this is what their clients are talking about you know I've spoken to some financial advisors who only really have farmers as clients or only have ex-military people as clients you know you can find something that you're passionate about or a group of people that you feel an affinity for and really go all out to help them and I think that's a wonderful thing yeah I agree I agree that I was on an exam revision day a little while ago and there was somebody on there who only deals with farm people so we were talking about that you know the changes to inheritance access and I was like really and it was about you know that the work that she was looking at was about farm buildings and farm houses and how the you know the analysis is different and so on and it was just fascinating I mean I'll probably never have I mean you know there aren't many farmers in Cavendish Square so I don't think I'll ever have any but it was just really interesting and so from that point of view this isn't just about having more women in the profession it's also about raising the profile of the profession yes more generally because it's a great job and we do a lot and you know one of my friends said to me once it's actually quite a caring profession because you know so much about people you you know so much about their family their own hopes and sometimes you know you're the first person to know if they're real yeah they're wealth doctor yeah yeah yeah and it's that your relationship is so long term and so invested in people and I think it's very rewarding from that point of view helping people to sleep at night and helping people to navigate through retirement I think is a really worthwhile and giving thing to do absolutely well that suddenly passes my vibe check thank you no that sounds fantastic and you know you've explained why it's important for the profession so let's just go back a little bit just Let's finish off with some key messages.

19:53Simoney Kyriakou: What can our readers of FT Advisor do? What can the advisors and paraplanners do to help support the aims of the WWA and to maybe take part in the survey or spread the word about it? Well, they can answer the survey. We want to hear from a wider spectrum of people as possible. So the survey will be going live on the 4th of June from the Consumer Duty Alliance. It's already on the FT Advisor website. It will be on my LinkedIn later on today. It takes about 10 to 15 minutes. We'd really appreciate some feedback from everybody just so we can get some really good data that we'll be sharing in a short while with a view to bringing out a more involved piece, a deeper piece in the autumn.

20:38Simoney Kyriakou: Yeah, fantastic. That sounds really encouraging. So please do take time to fill in that survey and share it with your colleagues and your peers and people in your network. And if you do want to find out more about the Women's Wealth Alliance, just, you know, contact them. I'm us at FT Advisor. Thank you very much for listening. And until next time, take care.

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