What should UK firms do better when it comes to bereavement?

0:13Welcome to the latest Margin Notes podcast with me Simni Kiriakku, editor of FTadvisor. This podcast will be CP Deable and I'll summarise the learning objectives at the end of this recording. When it comes to bereavement, how well equipped are we personally to manage our own grief, let alone truly comfort those who are bereaved? How often do we offer up well-seasoned platitudes such as, if you need anything, let me know, without realising the burden this places on the other person to muster up the courage to ask for help in the midst of their grief? So if we can struggle at the best of times personally, with the people we know well and love, how much more difficult is it for companies to help clients who can sometimes be complete strangers, who are going through bereavement?

1:02Many companies say they offer frontline staff training on how to deal with bereavement, but when I was hosting a seminar in December, every single attendant representative from approximately 20 UK insurance companies and brokerages said they'd never had proper bereavement and empathy training. This was quite shocking to me. I thought at least half the people would put their hands up, but nobody did. So this means clients who call up at their darkest hour are often left to navigate a string of conversations with well-meaning people who are ill-equipped to deal with such conversations. And these clients often face antiquated processes that do nothing to make the claim simpler.

1:42This is where empathy comes in, and I'm not just talking about the characteristic, which is much needed, but Empathy, the company. If you've not heard of it before, that's because it only launched in the UK last December. It's been around in the US for about five years and launched recently in Canada as well. The company aims to provide empathy training as well as support for both clients and colleagues. Alongside its launch, Empathy produced the Cost of Loss report, delving into the attitudes and experiences of UK financial services customers. The results were, in many cases, shocking. Here to talk about empathy and the findings of the report in more detail is Claire Dodd.

2:21After graduating from King's College London with a degree in political economy, she spent a few months working for former MP Rory Stewart before forging a career in philanthropic companies and career support networks. She's now the UK General Manager for Empathy. Welcome, Claire. Thank you for having me. Thank you very much for coming in. So let's get right into it. Why launch Empathy? Why now? Why the UK? Great questions. We have been operating in North America for just over five years now, and the kind of reach and impact we've had there has been pretty astounding. We now support over 45 million Americans through our reach with 40 different financial services partners, and the pull to the UK was impossible to ignore.

3:07We had many different partners saying, this is needed, why aren't you here? And enter our cost of loss report to help us understand that in more detail, the need is very acute. Yes, let's look at that cost of loss report. What was most surprising to you about the results? A couple of different things, I think, but perhaps most clearly the incredible weight that potential customers and individuals are putting on the bereavement support that is on offer when looking at particularly purchasing an insurance policy. I think perhaps there is a British stereotype that we have a stiff upper lip and grief is something that is handled very privately at home.

3:49But the fact of the matter is that grief makes admin harder. Admin makes grief harder. And when someone experiences a close personal loss, there is an awful lot of admin. And so in particular, I think it was the fact that 56 % of Brits surveyed said that they're actually judging what insurance policies to buy based on the level of bereavement support offered. And that's before they're even experiencing the loss. That's thinking about the loss. And I think the second point that is really key for everyone to take note of is the kind of changing generational expectations when it comes to this. Yes.

4:26Yes. Young people are quite good at talking about their feelings and emotions, aren't they? They are, but actually I think it's not just perhaps Gen Z, which I imagine you're thinking of as you say that, but actually millennials too. They're still young to me. so whilst 56 % of kind of the whole kind of 5 ,000 people that we surveyed said you know I'm actually staking which insurance policy I'm buying based on the level of bereavement support when you start to kind of look at specific generational cross-sections that raises to 72 % of people who are millennials and 77 % of Gen Z wow so there's a huge changing tide here very very big figures I mean I remember when I was looking at the cost of loss report I saw one particular stat that 86 % of beneficiaries whose expectations around that sort of support were not met said they'd be very unlikely to ever go back to that insurer or buy any more policies or even recommend them.

5:22I mean, that was really stark. Yes, but when you think about it, it makes sense, right? If you are at your most vulnerable, if you are experiencing intense emotion, probably you're the individual trying to hold it together for the rest of the family. and someone is cold, is transactional, is unhelpful on the end of the phone, you're going to remember that. We want humanity in our times of grief. And I think what the report lays very bare is that moments that matter count. They have outsized impact on trust, on loyalty, on brand perception. And there are many different reports out there that have looked at this from different lenses.

6:03But the fact of the matter is that different generations expect different things from the organizations that they choose to do business with. And that is extremely stark in the financial services industry. And we're talking about a lot more than sympathy, aren't we? So, you know, someone can be sympathetic or sound sympathetic. But then if you're still stuck with a transactional process at the end or you have to go to someone else and explain everything all over again, it doesn't matter how sympathetic people can sound. It's still very frustrating, isn't it? Big time. and there's a reason we're called empathy, not sympathy.

6:34We really believe in the fact that actually the best way to step up and support someone during kind of intense moments of grief after a close loss is practical outcomes, right? People don't know where to go. And I would imagine there is no insurance company out there that would say our claims teams, our support teams are not sympathetic. They're trained to be sympathetic. But the key difference between sympathy and empathy through our eyes is action, putting your money where your mouth is to say I'm sorry for your loss and we actually have something extra that will help you through this and so our our platform is is really designed to do two things it's to help kind of guide people through the kind of the emotional aspect of this but really crucially to help guide them through the different practical aspects that they are dealing with often for the very first time and that practical guidance that ability to hold space for grief whilst reaching tangible outcomes that actually move you forward, help you take things off your list, is the reason people remember.

7:37Yes, absolutely. More widely, could you talk about the positive aspect, the importance of creating this positive and nurturing customer experience at these key life stages? I think there is a stat within our report that said individuals who have their expectations exceeded are two times more likely to want to go and buy additional policies or products from that same institution. And so that says it all to me. People remember. There are many different kind of moments that matter through individuals' lives, and a lot of them have to do, require interactions with large organizations, particularly financial institutions.

8:13And if someone is able to step up and kind of help them, you know, fulfill the kind of product that they have bought and kind of actually yes here's here's your insurance claim but go one step further than that that is where that is where people remember that's that's the point and so the ability to offer something like empathy and say um sorry for your loss your check is in the mail um and actually in the meantime we have a platform that can help you save time money and stress that doesn't just hit the individual the beneficiary perhaps in this instance it also impacts their family the people around them who are probably trying to divide and conquer those tasks and work through it and so the network effect the kind of intergenerational effect here is really really key yeah i mean this is this is phenomenal stuff because advisors often tell us we have had a client come to us or a client's spouse or a client's dependent come to us they've lost their loved one the advisor has lost a friend because they've been managing that person's money for so long that that client has become a friend.

9:18So the advisor themselves are going through grief, the client's going through grief, the family's going through grief and then they come to talk to providers and they're met with huge transfer delays, huge delays in processing, claims taking a long time to pay out, whether it's a GP report they're waiting for or just the insurers, the underwriters having huge delays. This can then be really problematic for the advisor's own relationship with a client's family as well as for their advisor's relationship with that company you know ifas are also going to vote with their feet aren't they yeah exactly it's a really it's a really important point the kind of emotional toll of being on the other end of the phone with somebody who is is grieving especially when to your opening remarks there has been no formal training relies on eq and when somebody has multiple calls a day when you know maybe tens hundreds of of clients that they're dealing with that very quickly wears someone down and that's where we see the erosion of kind of humanity and empathy because someone is trying to be efficient so i i hear that and and echo it tenfold the ability of for an advisor to be able to kind of give a customer almost a stopgap or a interim support system whilst they wait for what they need which is ultimately the payout of that claim where they can do things like work through the funeral plans compare prices of different funeral plans they can begin to kind of understand probate and what's going to be required they can think about preparing a property for vacancy they can think about what to do with their grandmother's cat you know all of the different facets that you just don't think about until you're actually experiencing it and often there's nowhere to go and an advisor is somewhere to go and so there's a huge emotional burden there which as you say speaks to the kind of immense strength of those relationships and kind of the work that the advisor has done to that point in time but this is not only a kind of opportunity for them to then alleviate the burden a little bit for themselves whilst also being assured that they're doing the best they can for their customer but also to my earlier point to begin to show up for members beyond of the family beyond the client and to start to kind of perhaps speak to some of the children speak to the spouse and really start to kind of begin to build those intergenerational relationships themselves yes of course now you mentioned eq and i know that sometimes when we write about eq sometimes people say oh that's really touchy-feely it's a bit wishy-washy you don't need EQ you just need good basic common sense what would your response be to that put you on the spot here I know no it's a great question my response to that would be that it's an immense skill to be able to to hold that and say the right things when you're in a situation that is as emotionally intense as speaking to someone who's just experienced a close personal loss so if you can do that trading off pure common sense kudos to you i would argue the vast majority of individuals cannot unless they have been extremely exposed to it um really what somebody who has just experienced a loss requires is a listening ear is somebody who has sympathy yes but more importantly has the right tone has the right amount of time the right ability to hold space for that person to experience their grief to not kind of try and wash that away or skirt over it acknowledge it hold space for it while still achieving the same kind of practical outcomes that you know a support agent or a claims agent needs to achieve on the other end of the phone and that really is a skill.

13:14At the launch of Empathy last year in the UK we heard quite harrowing tales from some people who'd experienced almost blank walls when they came to speak to front-end staff in banks or in building societies. They said oh I've lost my son and then the person feels embarrassed or awkward probably feels sympathetic but doesn't know how to handle that conversation how important is it for the customer experience for that person to be able to look someone in the eyes and show that empathy and show that professionalism at the same time the data shows it's integral perhaps this isn't the way that we're used to operating but it certainly is the future especially when you think about you know we're having this conversation against the backdrop of one of the largest generational wealth transfers in living memory the people that those claims agents are going to be speaking to are the millennials are the gen z who are the ones who are telling us this matters and when we drill down into some of the additional insights within our report the specific things that they are calling out as painful are exactly what you're mentioning so it's things like you know um really cold transactional communications it's and this kills me having to tell the same organization about a loss three four sometimes even five times the same information it's the cold abrupt shut off at the end of the transaction essentially and all of those things speak to lack of personalization lack of understanding lack of empathy and all of them are inherently solvable now if i was to put my kind of self in in the hands of the people running those claims teams and support teams.

15:00I'm aware that they have large volumes, you know, efficiency is important. But there is a way of doing this in 2026, where you can be personalized, and you can be thoughtful, and you can be additionally supportive beyond the immediate conversation you need to have in a way that feels authentic and natural, but is also, you know, not preventing you from being efficient. And so I think that's the challenge that we're throwing out there which is current current ways of working aren't working yeah that's that's what our data shows but the solution isn't just to kind of lay down more and more and more on those kind of support teams who are already dealing with a lot probably with little training particularly through the through the kind of lens of bereavement now speaking to a lot of companies they're looking at automation and they're looking at ways to use ai to personalize the customer experience now we've all had issues with amazon sort of recommending us things that we don't need um based on your previous picks perhaps you'd like to have 16 more toilet seats or something so so we're used to sort of that level of personalization but as companies seek to achieve those efficiencies and to deal with more claims and process things timely and effectively and they're looking to use ai can there be a sweet spot where ai can be used or some form of personalization can be used in a technological sense but still deliver empathy to the client because that sounds like there's two competing things there it's certainly our experience that those two things can can live together um for example we are a tech company our platform is it's an app it's a web app with tools that are there that you know a user can kind of guide their way through and use without ever needing to speak to another human but we also have humans in the mix and that's because of the subject matter that we're dealing with and the fact that we personally believe that technology should do what technology does best pre-filling forms you know making guiding people to kind of the the content and the answers that they need based on inputs that they share and that humans should do what humans do best which is be a listening ear be available be a sounding board and it's the combination of those two things that actually then helps achieve deep personalization at scale with efficiency without losing the humanity and the human touch yeah the human touch is so important and the human touch is something that has been perhaps forgotten as we've been very transactional in the past but i think things like consumer duty and the FCA's work on vulnerability and the government's sort of implementation of disability and access ambassadors, all of these things point to a regulatory shift towards treating financial services customers as human beings and delivering the best possible outcome.

17:51How can, at a point of loss, how can we use these systems, use these tools to provide that humanity and meet our customer duty obligations and all of our vulnerability obligations? It's about acknowledging that an individual in the circumstances that we're speaking to, someone who has just experienced a bereavement, is going through a truly unique experience. They probably, hopefully, haven't really gone through that before. They are lost and confused and seeking guidance. And the ability to be able to kind of point someone in a direction will be remembered. And so we're speaking about bereavement, but this is true of all huge milestones.

18:34Think about somebody perhaps going through a divorce, somebody who is experiencing a serious illness or, you know, has received a terminal diagnosis. think about somebody who perhaps has experienced a miscarriage or you know lost lost a baby these are all moments where there are usually interactions between insurers financial institutions and individuals where there is an intensity of emotion and how you as a insurer as a financial institution choose to show up, I'm repeating myself now, but it's so true, will be remembered. And not just remembered by the individual you're dealing with, but by their family, by their friends who they say, gosh, I just didn't expect to have this kind of service from my insurer.

19:27I didn't know that was there. And so the ripple effect is huge. And I think there are microcosms throughout society where brands who are kind of first adopters, first movers have been doing this and that's why this ripple effect is now transferring back to financial services because as a society expectations are changing as a result of of technology and the fact that you are able to offer personalization at scale and i don't mean you know adding someone's name into a an email or whatever it is i mean true personalization about specific need so there's nothing generic about what we do it's all specific and that's that's really where that the kind of usefulness is for individuals I think that that being specific really understanding the person at their point of need is is very essential and you talked about these emotional conversations and I think in all of our heads sometimes we think of the person weeping and you're offering that kind sort of you're offering the tissue you're offering kind soothing words but sometimes that person could just be angry or could manifest as intensely angry or even disassociative you know just completely not wanting to deal with anything at all so you you've got a whole range of emotional responses to grief that a client could manifest and if you're answering the phone to someone who's angry or someone who seems like they're not bothered or you know they're they're not just they're just kind of distancing themselves from it it's really difficult without training to to understand where that person's coming from you could get completely the wrong end of the stick oh this client's just an angry client not this person is a grieving client i think we need to be really really intelligent about how we deliver training at all levels both to seasoned professionals and to newcomers.

21:26I mean, it feels quite hard to put an 18-year-old newcomer into a call centre in front of elderly clients who've experienced bereavements. I mean, without training, it feels impossible. That's very true. And I think the key thing is without training, but I would say that to your earlier point, younger generations are incredibly empathetic. It's almost second nature to them, and that's certainly what the report found in terms of what they give out and what they receive back amongst this. So there's an argument that says this is going to become more natural over time as kind of the workforce perhaps becomes more younger, but we can't wait for that.

22:04No. We can't wait for that. And so I do agree there is no world in which it makes sense to put people on a frontline support team who are going to be dealing with, you know, the five different stages of grief every time they pick up the phone, not sure what they're going to get. It's a game of roulette as to whether you're going to get, you know, denial or anger. And so there has to be training. There has to be. It's fair to the individual picking up the phone. It's fair to the individual calling in. And it's ultimately fair to what I'm sure the kind of financial institutions are trying to do and to be and not realizing this is perhaps where a gap exists.

22:44Sure. So we've got stuff that we can learn from the younger generations in terms of being open and talking about our emotions and not being stiff up a lip. What can we learn from the Americans? What can we learn from the US example where you say you've been operating in America and I think you launched also in Kdo early last year as well. So can we talk about sort of those experiences? What can we learn in the UK about how Empathy has worked with those companies? That's a great question. And I think the key reason is really why we're here, which is we created a category in the US. This didn't exist.

23:20This wasn't a thing that was there that kind of insurers were offering as standard. Even with a big focus on talking therapy. Exactly. Yes. I think because, you know, it's still a bit of a taboo to kind of to talk about death and to talk about loss and to think about the end. People don't like to think about it. They'd much rather, you know, I've got my insurance policy. It's there. We're safe. I've mitigated that risk. Done. and so really the kind of ripple effect that we've seen in the US by introducing this additional value into the market through our kind of 40 plus partners that we have there now has been astounding and I think we can say with some confidence that this is now the industry standard in America and soon to be Canada which speaks to the need there is real value here, people want this and it will be very interesting I think to compare as we kind of really get our feet into the table in the UK what aspects of our platform the different kind of locations and geos are kind of leaning into more there is a real stereotype here which is you know are our US users looking at the kind of well-being aspects of the platform and using our guided meditations and affirmations and daily journaling and community circles and are the Brits focused on probate you know are we are we let's talk tax exactly you want to talk about my feelings in a journal yes and then you know over time once they've done that are they coming back and are they actually going okay now I'm recognizing that I'm through the the kind of hardcore admin I need to I need to think about myself and my head and where I'm at and how I'm feeling that would be my if I was a a gambler I think that would be where I'd be placing a bet in terms of usage and utilization but I think that the kind of summary of all that is to say that the U.S.

25:15has taught us that the need is acute and that the value we can have is so powerful and so memorable and it's different for every single user some people are asking us to help them write an obituary some are asking us to help them sell a car right some are asking them to help us work out what benefits are available to them. And remember, all of that's different between Texas and Ohio and all the rest of it. It's state by state in the US. And so need is very personal. It's very specialized. It's hyper-specific. But by meeting that need, that's where all of the value that we've discussed comes from.

25:58Absolutely. And that's a very essential point, that value aspect. And listening to you, it makes me think, well, actually employers should be doing this too for their own staff. all UK employers. You know, I know the FT has a support network that we can phone up. But even so, you know, if you're going through something at work, you might tell your line manager, I'm really struggling. You know, my mental health is really suffering. And they'll be sympathetic and they'll say, OK, sorry to hear that. Please take care of yourself. Full stop. You know, they mean, well, the intention is there, but there's no real practical support.

26:34I'm not sort of talking about the FT now. I'm just talking in general. How do you work with employers to kind of encourage them to think about their staff? You know, the staff have to take personal time off. Yeah, I know it's very true. And there's an interesting section in the report specifically looking at this. And I think it's almost the kind of hidden cost, really, when it comes to employers, which is many organisations, you know, it's a legal requirement to provide some level of bereavement support. usually you know an email goes around so and so is going to be taking some time you know quite often I mean personally I've seen email emails like please don't ask them about why they were off when they come back which is always interesting and then six months later that person has has quit they they kind of you know they weren't given the support they weren't given the space and there's some really interesting data about the kind of the hidden impact in the cost not just on short-term productivity but ultimately on long-term retention and so really the way that we approach this with employers is twofold it is about making sure that employees know that this is there you know many will have access to you know an eap or something like that through through their insurance that's designed for low activation you know that's designed to be generic and one size fits all and so um we can direct people to those counseling sessions that they're being offered uh you know the six they get a year or whatever it is but ultimately that's not a that's not a trained grief counselor that's that's not somebody who's going to really be able to kind of specifically speak to this instance that their expertise is is general by nature and so um by employees knowing that this exists and then crucially to our earlier point by educating the managers by doing things like helping them understand um how to speak to somebody who has just experienced a loss by giving them even things like template emails that they can choose to send out which don't say don't speak to this individual yes but kind of you know consider the wishes and requests of the individual themselves and and give the team around them reassurance on how to kind of best support that individual um that is really where we see the impact is making sure that the managers who are dealing with this feel confident as much as they ever can do feel equipped and have kind of you know even going so far as kind of tools and resources to be able to step up and actually show up in the moment because everybody experiences grief differently yes somebody might you know need to speak about this every day and share memories and and kind of keep that person alive in front of mind some might not want to speak about it at all and there are many many degrees in between and people have complicated relationships with people that they've lost maybe they didn't exactly get on with them but there's a guilt associated with it exactly people don't want to assume they don't want to put a foot out of line it's so messy and so actually by just acknowledging it by being really honest that there is potential you know tricky situations to navigate and by being on the front foot by equipping managers with tools resources conversations etc so that they feel at least you know 20 % more confident that they're going to be able to kind of deal with a potential tidal weight of emotions not just from the individual who's experienced the last book from the kind of confusion and angst of the people around them on not wanting to put a wrong um then we do start to make incremental improvements sure and sometimes making mistakes helps us see where we have gone wrong in the past but we have to learn from those mistakes and hopefully not repeat them repeat them again so where should we then be as a financial services industry what kind of top tips could you give perhaps to UK financial advisors who are trying to sort of be the the bridge between the client and the the company from I think to the first part of that question based on what we've seen in in North America and the kind of real market shift that we've experienced if you would like to start building relationships with the next generations you have to start now you have to start before the need emerges the need being the huge milestone the kind of the loss perhaps you know whatever it is that's going to kind of bring you into contact with them and ensuring that your customers know that they have access to the support systems they have the right legacy planning in place they have they have a will perhaps they have a lasting power of attorney ensuring that all of that is is set up and that you have ultimately got ahead of the curve will then mean that you're in the best place when that kind of um that inevitable moment happens when um a claim is made when you are coming into contact with a beneficiary and a family for the first time you've established the foundation of trust and um support and And essentially your willingness to go one step further.

31:34And that is very clearly the expectations of the next generations. And so why ignore it? Yeah, it must be hard to start a conversation. So hi, clients today. Let's talk about death. Let's talk about what happens when you die. It sounds almost a little bit trite or a little bit frightening, doesn't it, to start a conversation? It does. Unless you're a minister of religion, of course, then it's expected. But those are exactly the sort of conversations we need to be having, right? Exactly. And when I think about, you know, what is the role of an advisor boiled down to its core, it's that a prudent guide, right?

32:12It's there to you are there to help manage risk for your customers and you're there to provide tailored solutions that ultimately help mitigate that risk. Having a will is a big risk mitigator. having a lasting power of attorney ensuring that your beneficiaries know where that is things like that those are all risk mitigators and they ultimately help an advisor not only do their job as thoroughly and comprehensively as they possibly could they also help that advisor deepen that relationship with the family because 50 % of them don't have wills I think there was an FT article not that long ago that said 36 % of children don't know anything about their parents' plans for inheritance and their estate plans.

33:06This is a huge gap. And if an advisor can step up and can point out that gap, ultimately they're doing their job to the best of their ability. Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, Claire, for coming in to talk to us today. I'm afraid that's all we've got time for, but you've given us plenty of food for thought. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And a reminder for CPD purposes that by the end of this podcast, you should now be able to explain what some of the issues are around bereavement support in the UK, summarise how a better understanding of empathy and compassion can help meet regulatory objectives, and list ways that you can help improve a client's experience of dealing with companies and dealing with loss.

33:47So thank you all for listening. And until next time, please do take care. Thank you.