Cor Hutton: The Quadruple Amputee Who Found Her Feet

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:12Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a podcast project conceived to let me spend more time with interesting people than I would ever get on the radio. Cor Hutton, welcome. Doctor, we should say. Doctor Corrine Hutton. please uh this is going to be a bit different this interview partly because you're here um as part of global's make some noise fundraising efforts and partly because um i i mean i don't know where to start your life has been so extraordinary for people who don't know who you are shall i just do the biography i go on yeah okay so scottish charity founder campaigner and motivational motivational speaker so far so I've met yeah could be anyone everyone's a motivational speaker these days although I'm told you are particularly good at it thank you um core has turned personal adversity into extraordinary advocacy in 2013 she contracted pneumonia that developed into sepsis leaving her with just a five percent chance of survival and resulting in the amputation of both hands and her legs below the knee um i i presume that you've answered every question and i sense from our brief acquaintanceship that you are not unduly troubled by some of the more obvious questions or some of the no go for it you'll talk about anything like a challenge you'll talk no no i just say because i don't know where to start no let's go honest with you because your charity helps other amputees so obviously we're going to have to talk about that in some depth but what you have done since undergoing this transplant and subsequently uh um i haven't even got to the transplant yet you've had a double hand transplant and subsequently a kidney transplant um and among other things you've climbed mount kilimanjaro and you've been up ben nevis peru inca trail come on have you got to that bit yet i haven't got to the inca trail yet no i was going to build that up towards the second half it's it's extraordinary so where do we begin where do you like to begin do we begin pre-illness do we begin with who you were before this happened yeah yeah i suppose so yeah um small business woman that the business was small you were of average size um and just had a cough for for a couple of weeks and yeah a bad cough but we all get coughed so i didn't think a lot about it people i worked with weren't happy had a small business of mine um and then they weren't particularly happy at me coughing but i i'd been to the the chemist and got all the usual across the counter things um and then you know after two weeks you know you need an antibiotic it's in the chest was it yeah yeah yeah absolutely so on friday afternoon got myself an appointment at the doctor he checked me thoroughly um and the next day you're dying with sepsis it's just bizarre you knew you had to get to hospital that day?

2:56No, no, no, absolutely didn't put up a bit of a fight with that got the antibiotics on the Friday night, thought if I took a double dose then I'd be much better by the morning, wasn't but also you... Is that how antibiotics work? Yeah, I thought so, but they certainly didn't that time. Please don't use full disclosure as your source for medical advice Sorry, nobody listen to me please, that's it. But you thought you know, we've all been ill, this is a bit iffy, a bit worse than the usual but clearly not something massively different. True. Next day, a bit worse, but I knew they would kick in, so I was quite laid back about it, but my mother wasn't.

3:31She was pushing me to talk to the hospital. So I don't know if it's a Scottish thing, but on a Saturday you phone NHS 24 and you get them on the phone, which is basically a doctor on the phone. And they chatted me for ages and they thought, like me, there was nothing to worry about and the antibiotics would kick in. But almost, well, I think it was the last sentence, they just said, why don't you just come up and see us? So at that, I'd kind of run out with excuses, and I thought, I'll go up and see them. And I didn't. I barely made it. So you collapsed at the door, I read. Well, I remember going in there.

4:01I didn't give anyone my name. I didn't sit in a waiting area. I was going straight into a small room, and you collapsed. What were you presenting? Because you were hawking. You were coughing so badly, were you? No, the journey in the car wasn't great. I knew I had a temperature. I knew I had a fever. Yes. It's a beautiful day. All of these things sound reasonable. I knew that I wasn't well. Yeah. And I knew this infection had to go. But even still, I wasn't thinking. You hear a lot of people talking about sepsis, thinking and saying I knew I was going to die. That's just not something I would ever say.

4:34It's just not an optimism thing. And I just wouldn't think like that. So, no, I didn't feel good. I went to the wrong part. I went to A &E and they sent me to NHS 24, which is, I don't know, 100 yards away. And it was the longest 100 yards of my life. I just struggled so much in the sun. um so yeah i knew i was really weak but i had no idea i was dying so most people have a fair idea what pneumonia is but sepsis like you say is one of those things that sort of entered into the public vocabulary with a surprisingly low degree of understanding did you know what it was no no no i'd heard of septicemia i'd heard of blood poisoning probably couldn't even have put the together um but i certainly do now yes i bet you do where did that come from do you think going much further back in your life that that inability to uh to to think the worst that because you're right a lot of people in similar situations would have said like i felt i was going to die or i knew i was going to die where did that come from could we call it fight or would that be a bit simplistic i think i've just always been like that a definite optimism um rose-colored spectacles faking it whatever you want to call it i also had a four-year-old son so that that fairly makes you take mind off yourself and think of him and how you're going to cope.

5:45So, yeah, it's just my norm. This is Rory. Rory, yep. You were raising on your own? At the time, no, but my husband left as soon as I got out of hospital. So, yes, very quickly, single mum. After you got out of hospital? Yeah. So, after the amputations? Yeah. So you come home with no, I mean, listen, I'm going to be sensitive, but I mean, we're going to come back to it again and again because of the work that your charity Finding Your Feet does. You came home with no arms and legs to find out that there was no husband. No, no, he was there for a while, but I just couldn't cope with it really is probably the best way of putting it.

6:26Okay, and this isn't his story, this is your story, but it just provides a picture of the kind of burdens that you were. well yeah and it was really it was really tough because you knew he was really hinting at a bit and um you know i needed things done you know i was dropping things a lot so i'd sit down and moan for a wee while downstairs and wait and all the jobs would you know i need this picked up and that picked up so when he'd come down the stairs he would get all these jobs to do so it probably was a total pain but um but anyway yeah very quickly you have to learn and and because it was going wrong for a couple of months uh when he actually left it was probably relief for us both though what i mean we've jumped forward already haven't we sorry well no it's it's me and we will do we'll jump all over the place because it's such an extraordinary story it's such an extraordinary life back to hospital um i presume you went under did you fairly quickly after after losing consciousness the pneumonia because you weren't getting enough oxygen to your brain lots of things what's your first memory after that sort of your first memory of coming around weeks later it's funny there's not many weeks uh well i had 10 days um i was actually flown down to leicester yes um to get the only ecmo machine this extra corporal membrane oxygenation machine and this is when they would put your chances at about five percent yeah well that's before that so we've got this really bad night in paisley reh where i wasn't expected to survive the night uh and obviously did spoiler alert clearly yeah yeah when did you find that out when did you find out how how poor the prognosis had been weeks later was it weeks later so the ecmo machine comes the next morning and that's the lifesaver and i responded where they didn't expect me to right so they took me back down to leicester and saved my life down there and i recently met someone from there actually it was lovely um they saved my life down there and then back to scotland uh to come out of uh the the unconsciousness because at this point it's a medical induced coma um so they were testing my um the damage i suppose and they kept bringing me out and my mum would tell me the story and then i'd go back under again forget it waking up again she'd tell me again so it wasn't that wake up moment there was a few of them um before the penny drops you know i think it was the third time before i suddenly remembered i had a son and the guilt and the worry and the minute i talked about rory i fell up so excuse me how's he doing oh he's great yeah he's great that kid just learned he learned so early on to be independent and capable um he was being passed around auntie and uncle and grandparents so he's absolutely brilliant um i've got this image of you there in the your mum by your side all the time but of course what was going on was that the machine was oxygenating your blood outside of your body but and would everybody involved medically have known that this would happen that that it wouldn't reach your extremities the blood would not be flowing into your hands and feet and so they would yeah they'd all started to change color pretty early on and that's not that's inevitable is it um well i i don't know how often it happens but um as i understand that yeah you know the body's so clever it's holding all that oxygenated blood for where it really needs it most you know the vital organs maybe the hospital are making it do that i'm not certain but how clever is that but there's not enough left for the extremities um and so after about three weeks i think in in this coma you wake up in icu as you say a few times and then and then then you wake up wake up then you you're core again you're who you are you remember rory you know what's going on um and then you overheard a doctor i think saying something a little bit out of the ordinary well yeah i think first of all they'll say about paisley the icu and they're absolutely phenomenal and they built me up i was there for a you know a couple of weeks extra once i'd wakened up and every day would be somebody saying to me you're incredible i can't believe you're alive you're a miracle worker how did you manage to get off that machine that's incredible you're off this machine every single day they're building me up to you know and after a bit you know you start to believe these things there's a there's an alternative message that i'll get to but you really start to believe that you're something different you're something special why didn't i die 50 000 people a year die from sepsis why didn't i die and nobody can tell me that i was reasonably fit and healthy but i wasn't an angel um i guess it's just luck i guess it's just luck but they built me up to this and then um to address the issue of when i was well enough i suppose to stop thinking about the vital organs and start thinking about the extremities the hands and feet i was moved to glasgow royal um and at that point you're in a new room overnight and the nurses don't know you the doctors don't know you and more importantly they don't know that i'm superhuman they don't know that i'm brilliant um and the message hasn't passed on so the the doctor that first morning you know it's it's half as seven in the morning or something and there's about 12 people standing around your bed all trying to learn about you the nurses the physios the OTs, even the registrars.

11:25And then there's all the consultants and also about 12 people there. And the main guy says, Corrine's to lose her hands and her feet in three days' time. And they start discussing how and why. And that was the first you'd heard? Yeah. At that point, I thought they were going to try and test and scan and whatever to try and save them. We thought that's why we moved to find some miracle. But in fact, the decision had already been taken. Yeah, and I guess that's when you find out that you're not superhuman at all. Well... You're just human. That was a low point, I think. But also, you have subsequently done fairly superhuman things.

12:03I don't want to get ahead, but that contrast is almost unbearable, Corrine, because you've gone from being surrounded by people who were essentially telling you you could fly one day if you just put the effort in. You were so incredible. You've made this. You've made that. and it feels like a guillotine it feels like a you know a moment of absolute horrific reversal when you're learning almost secondhand that the opposite is true yeah i think possibly that i mean they didn't they didn't build me up to what i could do they just thought what i had done but it creates an image inside of you doesn't it i can do anything absolutely but the the thing for me is um i found it very hard to imagine life without hands and feet i had no idea what that meant I managed to hold it together till they left the room and then obviously crumbled and and the big thing is you've got no family or anything there at that time nobody knows this message is coming um so very quickly the family I've got a very good support network around me I'm so lucky um but they come in and tell me you know don't think like that and interestingly that nurse that I met what what do you mean don't think negatively don't think what you can't do okay even even on day one when you've got no precedent no guide no no notion of what life without hands and feet could be like?

13:18People are already building you up again, helping you. Well, yes, I think so. You know, it's a survival thing, isn't it? It's like, because, you know, it did cross my mind. Was it worth the fight? Was it worth the effort? Was it worth all the worry? Was it, you know, and what can life be like without hands and feet? And I had no idea and there didn't seem to be anybody who could tell me. Staff, brilliant. NHS, amazing. But they've never been in that situation and they don't know. I'm asking these questions because all of this is the path that leads to finding your feet, isn't it? Yeah, yes. Wanting to be sure that people who find themselves in similar or even close to identical situations don't feel as cast adrift as you did, albeit that you had a wonderful support.

14:00The fact that there was nobody to tell you what you might expect is part of what has subsequently become your life's mission. Yes, it is, but also to be that support network for people who don't have it, answer the questions shortcuts to the the right areas for advice and help rather than having to find it all out yourself and there will be opportunities later to to make donations to globals make some noise which is supporting finding your feet this year

14:29what did you think when you did think about what life would be like with arms and feet what what can you remember i do yeah i remember i speak it quite a lot the the first thing that came into my head was I'll never wear another flip-flop. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Well do you know I could I still could I well up when I see people wearing flip-flops now. I love my bare feet on the cold floor. I'll not be able to paddle in the water you'll never toes between the sand. Strange things I suppose not particularly practical things not things you do every day but eventually you know would I be able to be a mum even?

15:05Never mind would I be able to get I'm about would I be able to drive would I be able to do things with them but could I even just be a mum yeah that's extraordinary that because that must say something about your personality you would have spoken to a lot of other amputees now because people listening would think the first thing you'd think of is I won't be able to you know do something functional anymore but for you it was pleasure it was the pleasures that you were going to be denied yeah yeah yeah sand between your feet or the warmth of a of a bare foot yeah and i just didn't know what i could be i had no idea what the limits would be or and what what what does help look like then i mean actually we jumped ahead again so you're not making your peace with the prognosis you're in shock you're reeling from it and then within two or three days it's it's done to you it's happening yeah um we we saw second opinions and third opinions and things we tried to find the person who was the miracle worker and and who could do something different and certainly we got the best of the best for sure and prof heart um but yeah everybody had the same opinion the only choice could be that some of my feet parts of my feet were worth saving did i want to save them but i wouldn't be able to walk or did i want to go for amputations at the shin where i could get prosthetics pretty quickly and be walking so that was the only decision really and to be fair it wasn't a decision was it well i i don't know i can see why you chose to do what you do but you've had to make this adjustment in less than a week you've gone from presuming that you'd be up and about as normal to having to decide how much of your leg below the knee that you want to have amputated yeah i suppose um but yeah the more people you talk to the more it sank in and the more realization there was um and and then once once that decision is made then what's the point in just um seven operations i think 25 transfusions so i mean it it happens incrementally it happens gradually you don't go under with all four limbs intact and then come around with all four limbs gone it's a it's a it's a slow process but a grinding one yeah just so weak that um there was a limit to what they could do every time because your immune system had been shot to pieces as a consequence of the pneumonia and crucially the sepsis i'd been so ill yeah so what are they doing because there can't be many patients like you are they they're kind of not taking risks with you but they're being ultra cautious and waiting to see what you can cope with and then not wanting to exceed for them it must have been i think they just had a plan they just had a plan that they dealt with so you you're waking up and you deal with what you've done at At one point I had tubes coming from every limb and they were soaking away the poisons and the toxins and things.

17:56They were vacuuming them out. So even trying to imagine sleeping with four tubes coming from four limbs and, you know, you can't roll over. You can't do anything. So pretty tough times and pretty embarrassing situations with nurses that were just incredible and made me feel much better about it. laughed at me even, joked with me, and found the dark humour, which I really needed. Yes, but I suspect there were also moments of almost unbearable sorrow, were there? I mean, I know that optimism is a crucial part of who you are, but there must have been moments of self-pity. Again, for want of a better phrase, just heartbreak is a better phrase.

18:35I think I just didn't want to go there, probably. Wouldn't let yourself? I didn't really want to go there. I faced it like I faced challenges, I suppose. This is a challenge and I just need to deal with it. And I suppose if there was any downstage, it was almost exactly to the year where it dawned on me that this is my life now. It's not a challenge. Remember that about childbirth, actually, with my son? Yeah. It's just a challenge. I'll deal with it. And then thinking, God, I've got another 20 years of this. So, I mean, it's July 2013 that you start relearning everything? A bit later than that, I got out of hospital in September.

19:13Right. And got legs shortly after that. And your boy by now is five, Rory, and I've read, I mean, this is a really poignant thing, that you had to relearn everything alongside him. Yeah. Did that help? Yes. Yeah, I think so. It was fun that we could do things together, the things that he needed to help me with, things that I needed to help him with. One of the things was, I went this morning to the Lego shop around the corner and that was a big thing for his Lego. We've got a lot of Lego, those tiny, tiny pieces and I had to find the pieces and he would put them together. And, you know, it was brilliant.

19:48But he also started school while I was in hospital. So that was quite a poignant thing as well. Rory started school at the school I was at. So you're trying to get to the school gates in a wheelchair. I've got my hands sewn into my hip at the time because they were trying to make the skin grow into the the hand um as a precursor to a potential transplant or just well no they um what they did as the precursor i suppose was just remove the damaged skin right and the damaged tissue and everything that was damaged and they left a lot of things that were good but exposed so they needed fresh skin to cover over the exposed tissue and that came from a square in my thigh after it had been sewn in for three weeks and for the underside of my arm and they twisted around to put it.

20:32So I had what looked like two very ugly boxing gloves, almost. My hand sewn into my hip, which meant I couldn't put a T-shirt on. So I've got to have the whole T-shirt slit open and then stay feet pinned back together. Thrown in a wheelchair, taken to school to see my boy go to school on his first day with, I guess, the grandparents and the parents that I grew up with all there. And I looked really, really ill, but it was quite a moment. That was the day that you became mum again, really. You know, you've got duties, you do them. And how did you, I mean, in a way it's quite a good age because they can get their hands around almost anything.

21:10I'd say so, yeah. How did you explain it? Well, one nurse said to me in ICU when we had Rory come in to see me and my hands and feet were completely black, and I said, I don't know what to do, what would I do here? And she said, you can't hide them from the truth, so just be truthful. so we covered my hands and feet up because they weren't very nice but everything else we chatted about and and and Rory got to the truth of everything but maybe not the full depth he didn't need to everything not the nasty gory details um but he goes away and he thinks about it and he comes back with questions so it's a very level kid um yeah not hugely filled with uh either emotion high or low he just he just copes gets on with it yeah when in your mind did you start thinking when was there enough space for you to start thinking about the possibility of helping other amputees later.

22:00When did that first flower? Well, I was still in hospital when... Really? That early? Yeah, yeah. When I didn't know what life was going to be like, we had a quadruple amputee go and see my family, but she said she wouldn't come and see me because I'd want to hit her. Because she what? I'd want to hit her because she was doing so well. Oh, wow. So I can see that argument, but I actually would have loved to see somebody coping. I would have loved to have seen somebody who'd driven there, got dressed, you know, done their own hair, makeup, whatever, themselves. and that would have given me a lot of hope.

22:30So I suppose the family pushing me to think, she needs a purpose, what's it going to be? I can't do my old job, what's it going to be? And there's a gap, you know, you've found a gap, why don't you bridge it? Why don't you be the one that bridges the gap? We'll set a charity up and you can help people find that information. But I didn't think it'd be much more than a wee hobby. My older brother thought it was a career for me possibly. um but um yeah i love to see its grown arms and legs if only um yeah and it's great and the thing that i found most was helping other people stop me thinking about me right that was like a therapy yeah i mean a lot of therapists would say you should think about yourself but i sense you're in a kind of you don't subscribe to a one-size-fits-all view of the world or indeed of amputations no a lot of what we do is um mental health issues and we have counselors that help and we'll go to the odd meeting with them where they will say, take a step back and look after yourself.

23:33You can't look after others unless you're looking after yourself. All true, all absolutely true. I'm useless to anyone if I'm not me. So that is true as well. But also I think you can think too much. You can, but I also, I mean, it's the things you can't do as well, isn't it? Which it's almost impossible to separate the two, the mental response to the physical changes and i wonder when you found yourself most if not surprised by your new body by your new condition but frustrated i mean the moments when you just sort of thought this is this is this is nuts how am i going to carry what were the little things that you possibly hadn't foreseen i think that mostly be that that year part before that i had friends coming picking me up and and i guess what i did right i suppose um was just say yes to everything yeah anybody offered to take me anywhere i just said yes and that got me out and it got me laughing um took my mind off the the the bad things but you know you come home and i shattered i had a really good day out with the girls for example and we all managed to get the train home and um but the the ramp wasn't there and then there's all this fuss in the train station because they can't get me onto the train and I hated the fuss.

24:48I hated the attention. And then by the time you go home, you're tired. And, you know, maybe I'd indulged in a little drink or a wee cocktail here and there. So probably not able to hold it together quite as well. So the nights could be quite tough when you're back in bed and sore and tired and crunchy. And that's where you can't distract yourself either, isn't it? With anything, with activity or with... Yeah, it's tough. If you're not sleeping, then there's a lot to think about. But thankfully, I'm a very good sleeper. so um just hopefully crash out and then tomorrow's another day and if i do get a bad day then i you know i know i don't get them anymore really but um if there's just a day that's frustrating then let it just let it happen

25:31did you give yourself goals did you have specific milestones that you wanted to achieve during your sort of what's the correct words is it rehabilitation or is it i guess it is yeah recalibration it's getting back to yourself isn't it did you have things like i want to be able to do that next and then when i've done that i want to do that or was it more of a kind of just kept saying yes yeah just keep saying yes and by saying yes i found myself in hollywood i found myself in downing street i found myself on tv you know because you started setting the charity up immediately because i think um the charity got quite a lot of coverage which is just let's go let's do that let's do the seeds the like the very first time that where did the name come from i mean respectfully it's nice straightforward does exactly what it says on the tip but it's a good name where did it come from it makes me laugh it's a great name remember the girl with no feet find your feet but it came from actually um i escaped hospital one day with my young brother and he was taking me to the the the the um autobox the place that did the bionic hands which was the world's um top bionic hand place and you know the whole world is in livingston scotland bizarre so he was taking me to that but his two sons were there so they wanted fed and to escape to somewhere to eat was pretty cool after hospital food.

26:44So he took me to McDonald's. Yeah, great. All the classy place. And, you know, this will make maybe the listeners think that when you go into McDonald's restaurant, all that fantastic fixed seating. But it's no use for wheelchairs. I know it's different now and they have reacted to that. But we walked into this one that only had one table with loose seats and there was two ladies sitting at it. And they immediately saw the problem and thought, please have our table. and I said no no don't be silly I'm just finding my feet thank you very much and then my brother started to laugh because I quite obviously had no feet or hands for that matter and he said but good name for the charity so we had a laugh about it and that's where it came from so it's now been the name of the book and it's been name of the charity and yeah it's just right.

27:27And when did the charity begin to take shape well I mean how does that work do you what do you do register a number make some phone call i mean i mean i want to help but how do you help how do people find me well just give me an idea of how i mean you've climbed real mountains of course subsequently but this particular metaphorical mountain feels really big even talking about it in retrospect but what are the first what are the foothills of that there's a lot to be done there's a lot of paperwork uh my young brother's a lawyer and he knew lawyers in glasgow he's in Dubai but he had worked with lawyers in Glasgow so they very kindly set up the charity for us so he did all the paperwork while the older brother I guess was setting up you know the whole ethos of the charity what we're going to do who we're going to do it for who will gain what's our message what's our slogans you know that kind of thing so.

28:19And this is I mean the people who'd looked after you the medical professionals who'd looked after you did you did you run it by people did you say is there a need for a charity like this is that i mean you knew there was because you'd been through it but did you know numbers at this point did you know how many people you just okay so you're jumping i joined i think we just knew there was a gap for me and assumed that gap was there for other people um we weren't trying to be a big charity certainly i wasn't what year are we now what year would you say the charity was up and running so i took hill in july 2013 team yes the charity was official in the january so of 2014 yeah but we didn't probably start talking about it until august okay but this was your recovery then this in many ways this was who you would now be yeah it's bizarre you're lying in hospital feeling really rubbish and awful and and again that's that's that tough family love thing but my older brother davy would come in and say why have you still got your jammies on push your lipstick and he would you know the The rows of the hospital were any time up to late.

29:23And he would come in at nine and give me a row. And I'd been up all day doing all the treatments, seeing all the visitors. They were very, very good to me. But at that point, I'm thinking of sleep. And he comes in and around and gives me a row for my pyjamas and my lipstick. And this perhaps is why things move so quickly, because the charity's up and running in the beginning of 2014. Later that year, you were at the Commonwealth Games holding the Queen's baton. Is that linked to the charity, or is that just a recognition of your own recovery? I guess you just get invited depending on who you are and what you've done.

29:54How did they know about you? Well, because the press were very good to me, I suppose. And there was quite a lot of fundraising at the time for me. Before Finding Your Feet was official or anything, they had raised funds for me. Because the cost of making adjustments to your house, looking after you. Well, yes, I guess. So I didn't know all that at the time. And I was very embarrassed about it as well. Yeah, I didn't like it. I didn't like being the charity. Because it felt like charity. Yeah, I didn't like that at all. but equally I suppose as time went on you realized I needed it and um I just I lived with it by thinking I'll take it now but I'll pay back I'll pay back I'll flip it and and and make sure other people get the benefit thereafter so that that settled better for me I could live with it then if you could talk to you then when you were feeling uncomfortable about accepting funds or accepting support from other people what would you say now well i don't think i would suggest anything different to be honest if i'd said yeah great thanks give me all this money i need it then how does that sound that sounds dreadful so that's not me i would never have done that um and i suppose i could have rejected the money but that's insulting people were being kind and they wanted to try and help and i guess in that there's a lot of um hopefully your your your listeners will understand that as well it's like i'd rather just hand over the money and glad it's not me um you know um it's easy easy to hand over over my money and just be grateful and when did you start fundraising yourself um i suppose when the charity was set up that was the time that was the line that was the line what would you do what were you well actually before you tell me that what were you dreaming of for the charity if i'd met you then at the beginning of 2014 and said where do you want to be by christmas what would you have said didn't have any expectations at all.

31:42No expectations at all. I suppose I just wanted to live and I wanted to have a reason to get up in the morning. I still was very, very poorly and needed to look after myself a lot. A lot of people needed to look after me. So I was just, I guess, trying to live and be positive. But also that's hopefully setting a good example for a lot of people. I'd say, do you want to go for a coffee? Should we go for lunch after physio? And I was I'll call it bullying. I don't think they would. But you know, other people saying come on come on out the house come and do something with me and um and um that really was the ethos of it was getting people cajoling encouraging yeah i think so yeah yeah and there's a lot of people in find your feet now that uh we still talk about it and we do laugh about it and say you know they know they needed that push yes and i had that push for my brothers so it's only fair that everybody else gets it yeah and and tell me about the um the activity clubs what what do they do well yeah it started started in the beginning with a friend who was a pilates instructor yes who said if you want to be upright you need to work your core strength so she wanted to do something with the amputees for that someone else wanted to do swimming lessons because you get in the pool and you're weightless and and it's very very different your center of gravity is all changed so so that was our two first clubs were pilates and swimming and a lot hasn't changed we now do about 120 clubs a month all over scotland and it's fair to say we're only Scotland there's a lot of English charities for amputees that I'm very friendly with and we all got all going well and we try not to step on each other's toes but we're the only one in Scotland so there's nothing else in Scotland there's the odd wee local one that go out together or swim together and things but nationwide we're the only one so there's a lot of responsibility that I hadn't expected either with that comes you're doing 120 clubs a month you know you need money and the end of the the end of the business year you start from scratch again and you've got no money and tell me about what it's like to watch the difference that the charity makes for someone that's absolutely huge um i can tell you a story about 29 of us at the lake district last weekend uh 79 year old elizabeth zip sliding and canoeing with her family so there was three families there that were three generations with an amputee in in each family obviously and see them all doing things together is just incredible it's great to see you know there was Elizabeth being pushed around an assault course in a wheelchair by her 18 year old grandson and it's just heartwarming I could have cried thinking you know when would this ever happen when would you ever get your 18 year old to do things like that with these grand it was so touching and that for me there were so many memories like that Joanne being in a pool for the first time in 20 years so pleased with herself she got back in the next day and did a length and then get back in the third day and was swimming freely and it just it just blows your mind so you're helping people who have recently recent amputees but but also historic amputees as well absolutely yeah and people have got into the rut of thinking they know it because they were i didn't know that so there was nothing there for these people when they were coming out of hospital and now there is there's finding your feet yeah i am and i'll say to them obviously they got one with their lives than they manage but so many people could learn from them if they would come along and help us and they'd allowed well they'd had their expectations diminished by consequence of the absence of support and so by bringing the support so the expectations grow again and open up with opportunities maybe they just managed and seen the hard fight or maybe they managed in a way that is different to the way they needed to manage you know they could have done it with so many friends they can now do it with friends when you came out of hospital you'd already been identified as a as a potential future hand transplant recipient how heavily did that weigh on you how conscious of you were that i mean how much because hope can be a dangerous thing can't it well i was still in hospital when it was suggested prof hart mentioned it um and i was immediately against it why i immediately rejected it because in my mind my immune system would let me down badly and to be a hand transplantee you've got to have no immune system almost.

35:58For the rest of your life you'll be immune to breast and I didn't want to take that risk again. I'd been through so many operations I suppose it just seemed like it was just going to drag on forever so I didn't think that was for me however Prof had been so good to me when he asked me to go and talk to them in Leeds. I felt I owed him it so I was probably going down there thinking yeah right yeah off we go but you know I went in with my dad he drove us down and I went in saying open mind, let's go in with an open mind and see what happens and it was just incredible when I got there, it was this big amphitheatre with about 50 people in it and I'd assumed they were talking about lots of different cases and they were all in there to talk about me and my transplant they'd never done a double hand transplant before so they had the potential that I was going to be that one but what I learned in that room was that there's a lot of discussion to be had before they decide to include me or offer me that right that hand transplant so I realized I didn't have a decision to make at that point so I thought I'll just back off yeah let them make the decision if they tell me they can't then that's done for me if they tell me I can't then I'm gonna have to do some thinking I'll decide then um but I went down I think five times over the period about six months and every time you could tell the enthusiasm you could tell the excitement you could tell what they were hoping for i don't know if my health was different because although i had been really nasty with the sepsis i didn't think i had any underlying problems that yeah we've obviously touched on those but i didn't think i had those things so i think for them they thought this is a good candidate right um and you know i could tell how excited and and what they thought they could do for me were you at all excited or were you still ambivalent well it rubbed off of me yeah definitely yeah totally rubbed off of me um where i started to think they're excited about this why would why should i not be a brother davy had said why would you not if they can fix you yeah why wouldn't you yeah um i suppose just the size of the operation and all it was nerve-wracking but they did iq tests with me they did psychological tests with me spent a lot of time with the psychologist uh crying actually because she would ask me to talk about my story and i would cry and then think well that's me i'm going to be excluded because because I'm a mess clearly but I think she thought it was healthy it was healthy and honest and um you know I was practical so you you you swung well yep effectively to the point where now you are waiting for a suitable candidate which is an incredibly poignant bittersweet yeah they do they tell you that's you um obviously they said do you want to be on it and I said yes I definitely did and that's me on the list waiting for a donor you know and that's quite a big deal i had to learn a lot about that and this is someone who has passed away but who and this is where things are quite utilitarian aren't they logistical almost there have to be matches it has to be a woman it has to be someone with similar skin tone similar size i mean all of these things mean that despite being on the list it's a long process before a suitable candidate appears well i didn't realize that at the time but you know I got I got my bag packed and I had instructions because it was going to be the country's first double hand transplant I was warned about the media and what would go in my bin and how they'd be standing at my front door so I had to not talk about it you know when the call happened I couldn't tell anyone and we had the procedures in place because of course Rory was still young what happens to him when the call comes in and you know how does he get to school and so we had all the we had all the plans in place and then I got my first call um and got all excited got into everybody right this is it it's all happening and we all did the plans and then about four hours later got a phone call to say sorry it's not happening uh and i think i was in double figures for the amount of times i had that false alarm that's the only way it can be done yeah i think probably at number three or four i got the phone call and thought oh okay that's it and i was driving at the time so um by the time i got to where i got to i completely forgotten about it and they phoned me again and it gone completely out my head i hadn't told anyone i hadn't made a single plan i'd completely forgotten about it that's just me moving on because you're used to the disappointment so i don't know if that was psychologically or whether i'm just scatterbrained but um i'd forgotten about it uh but you know i think in the end they stopped phoning me because it was a period of about two years where i didn't get a single call and i think they just stopped telling me until it was so far on until they were close to 100 certain that this one was going to go ahead well again i didn't know that until we had the phone call but but in the meantime someone else became the first double hand yeah a few did how was that?

40:34I think they phoned me thinking I would be gutted but you know what can you say, what can you do they weren't a match for me I knew I was first in line, if they were good for me I'd have got them they weren't so there's no point in getting uptight about it a funny thing, most new years I would say over the five years that I waited every year I would get to the point of saying right, what we're going to do this year I'm not waiting anymore, I'm not putting my life on hold I'm just going to get on I think your life is not on hold you've done so many things your life is just don't be so stupid just shut up and I suppose in my head I thought it would never happen as time went on I realised I'd had these 25 blood transfusions I didn't know that and the antibodies that are in the blood transfusions have to be avoided in the donor so it's a bit of a needle in a haystack so I just kind of decided it wasn't going to happen it's complicated isn't it so you'd sort of made your peace with the fact that it was never going to happen and then well and then there's a bit of a story if you get time for it but just after new year the sunday before going back to work i'm sitting in a restaurant in my village this is the end of 2018 beginning of 2019 yes yes it is um uh so in this restaurant glass front night time january cold dark and there's all the blue lights round about the train station and i'm there with a friend and our kids and things and we're on the phones checking the gossip wonder what that's all about we found out that the trains were cancelled from sort of 10 miles either way i thought well that's really bad that's something really bad down there um and i kind of i'd been told a few times that the best chance of getting hand transplants was christmas new year one for the weather and two for the mental health aspect um so probably wasn't a surprise to see these blue lights down there and think oh no that's terrible but we got on my life and i went to work the next morning first monday back and we start talking about what we're going to do for the year how we're going to get amputees how we're going to get funds what kind of stupid things are we going to get corinne to do um you know um so many things you think of and that first day back and in the afternoon i got a phone call to say it was one of my friends who had jumped in front of a train and then that was a big moment um obviously heartbreaking family kids everything perfect life you thought um and also in the back of my mind is this you're more likely to get a hand transplant in january um because of the mental health things and then something like that happens and my phone call came that very night um so again i'm trying to push that thought to the back of my mind of who it could be um and what the rack story was but they phoned and said right okay we've got your hands um get yourself down to leads i said right okay yeah great what we're talking have you have you done all the checks in the blood why don't you phone me once you've done the checks in the blood no no done all that done all that I said right well it's usually the family that changes their mind or something like that so have you checked with the family go and check with them no no that's all done everything's signed there's no hurdles there's got to be something we're still waiting on absolutely not get yourself down here there's an ambulance coming for you and I had about 20 minutes notice at that point I'd stopped having a bag packed my mum and dad were on holiday big panic how am I going to turn this around all the plans we had my son's at one school my nephew's at a different school and the only people that can help are my brother and my sister-in-law so they have to be there I thought anyway in my mind, one can take one to school the other can take the other and I'll just go in this ambulance and my brother had a fit and he said you can't go on your own honestly I'll be fine, it's a big operation what's the point of coming down and sitting outside so he did a deal with the prof and he said I'll just drive through the night I'll get the kids off to school and when I know when you're due to come out of the operation, I'll be there for you waking up.

44:18So that's what he did. So, yeah, that was quite an entertaining ambulance ride as well where the ambulance broke down and we had to swap them. That poor woman in that ambulance, she's still a good friend actually, thanks. And she listened to me for, what would that be, four hours? Good Lord. Four solid hours in the freezing cold, dark, bleak roads. It was the morning of January the 9th, 2019, when you emerged from theatre with a pair of new hands, which you took to, in percentage terms, very, very quickly, and even more than the highest hopes of the medical teams. They're amazing, yeah. And the psychological training I'd been given was that you're not going to believe they're yours for a good while.

45:07Right. But actually, my brother pointed them out to me when he first came in. He said, you've got hands. and I was awake and joking and telling jokes to the nurses and it's great, all these drugs they give you. So I thought I was hilarious and I was throwing them about and things and they were freaking out. But David said, you've got fingers, look at your fingers. And the fingers were poking out because they want to see the circulation. Yeah, of course. And immediately they were mine, immediately. Really? And then immediately I felt guilty because I knew where they'd come from. Well, I knew they'd come from someone and I didn't want to think so quickly that they were mine.

45:40you know I wanted to be respectful and I wanted to think but the result now is I never ever talk about my hands without thinking about the donor and I'll always mention them I'll always bring her up and you were respectful and as you point out you continue to be respectful and I think I mean there aren't millions of people in your position but I don't think all of them have met with, you met with the sister yeah we did I met the twin sister that must have been a moment that was about six months after and her family the rest of the family I wouldn't I wouldn't mention but I met them too but um the sister Debs was on camera with us we did this big long lost moment long lost family kind of thing yeah um which is fantastic there was a video done on that but it kind of got put aside for lockdown and it only emerged earlier this year so because that that is the other side of your life now sort of mother and advocate because the motivational speaking you've done the TEDx in in Glasgow honorary doctorate from the University of West Scotland an MBE as part of the King's birthday honours list your book published in 2019 i'm blushing finding your feet raised over a million pounds for amputees you've even got the freedom of renfrewshire what what does that allow you to do what am i allowed to do i'm allowed to take my sheep right through the main street is that a thing yeah yeah it's not a thing you know i really wanted to but that's apparently what it allows me to and you can also pee in the street can you well that's a bonus isn't it well you're yet to avail yourself of this privilege and and as we touched on at the beginning you you take the fundraising very seriously on a personal level as well as an institutional level doing things like going up Kilimanjaro and doing the Inca Trail yeah it's like my big bucket list isn't it yes except that you're raising money all the time when you do it and nearly always taking an amputee or two with me and that's the point and pushing them yeah and so how many can you put a number on how many people have benefited from the charity since you started I know we've currently got 1500 people active with us in the charity, doing the clubs that we do.

47:34Some of them will come to amputees, which is our coffee morning teas. So they'll come for a coffee and a cake there. Others are a bit more active. They might do swimming with us or climbing with us or one of these walks with us. And then late last year, you needed a new kidney because of the impact that the treatments had taken on your... Yeah, I'm afraid I didn't know about the damaged kidney. I lost two thirds of my kidney, sorry, the damaged lung. So I lost two thirds of my lung. And then they started talking about the kidney and it was a slow decline. So I knew that was going to happen at some point.

48:04COVID didn't help. And then they had to go looking for a match. And my brother was the one that was a great match there. Would you believe it? But it wasn't him who provided it in the end? No. The last minute they decided to put me on the deceased list. Your brother had said yes. Your brother had put his hand on. Oh, yeah. He had his national hero cape on and everything. He was waiting. He was ready to step in. Was he relieved when they found someone else? I suppose part of him possibly was. But after getting the kidney, it all went a bit wrong. and he said, I knew it should have been me. I knew it should have been me.

48:32And because the kidney I actually got was such a good match for me and therefore also a good match for my brother, by getting this new kidney, if it were to fail, I wouldn't be allowed my brother's. So that door would be closed because of the antibodies. So it was quite a serious thing and all, and then it started to go wrong and they thought it was rejecting. But they've since decided that it wasn't rejecting, it was just slow. Right. So, yeah, it's working now. I've got about 45 % function. Lives can be changed and saved. I'm proof of that is the motto you live by, really, and the thought that inspires all your work.

49:08Well, yeah. I just opened a letter from the donor family last week. Unfortunately, I'd sent one to them as well. So I just think it's really important to express your gratitude. It's the biggest sacrifice ever. And I just hope it gives the family a little bit of light. I'm sure it will. I hope it will too. what does the future hold for you I've just read out some of your achievements the first female quadruple amputee to climb Mount Kilimanjaro I should have made that clear do you have any I mean you mentioned bucket lists is there anything still on it my friendship group are all go getters they always want to do cool things and I get a lot of FOMO fear of missing out so they do things I'm jealous of and things so I'm always wanting to do really cool things so next year I've got a trip to Dubai to my brothers, I've got a trip to my friend in Miami I've got a trip to Vietnam, Cambodia I've got a fundraiser in the Bangor Rally which is good because I'll be sitting down and I won't need to walk I never mentioned actually the damage that was done to my legs from Peru a year and a half ago so there's an operation coming up for that as well that will mean off my legs for possibly 8 weeks so I've got that to look forward to as well but I'm really struggling to do long walks at the moment it's just not possible well I think in the in the circumstances that's understandable so we get us having a car um Corrine Hutton thank you thank you very much you've been very kind right now too many people are facing their toughest challenges alone families living with life limiting illness people struggling with their mental health those trapped in abuse or unable to afford the basics.