Emma Grede: What it really takes to build a brand with the Kardashians

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. I have unbelievable self-belief. Back in those days you would write letters. I wrote to every single person, I wrote to every single PR agency, I wrote to every single buyer, I wrote to every single shop on the high street. I would literally knock on doors and say, hey I don't think you got my letter. You come into the Kardashians life is probably the best way of putting it. That was a moment I imagine. A moment and I milked it. Your energy is so high. Am I giving you a headache. No, I'm loving it. I'm loving it. I'm going to go out and start a company.

0:34You know, Emma, you're not better than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than you.

0:44Hello, and welcome to Full Disclosure, a podcast project designed to let me spend more time with interesting people than I would ever get on the radio show. Emma Greed, welcome. Thank you. I'm very happy to be here. Well, it's a pleasure to have you. I think for the benefit of my audience, you're somebody about whom they will know either everything or nothing. Does that sound reasonable? I think that's absolutely reasonable. So, I mean, for people who don't know, you are, I mean, there's some phrases here that need a little bit of unpacking, but you are. Let's unpack it. Well, you're a hugely successful entrepreneur.

1:16Everybody knows what that means. Investor, brand builder. I know what that means. but it's a now of course best-selling author because your book start with yourself a new vision for work and life um has has just smashed its way um into the into the charts on both sides of the atlantic hence hence my congratulations thank you um you've crammed a lot into your life you were born in 1982 you now live in the united states of america you've got this extraordinary portfolio career people will have seen you as a guest dragon on dragon's den as a guest shark on shark tank um they'll be familiar obviously with your work and the businesses that you founded with various members of the kardashian family but it all began in plaster it did it feels like a long way good old plaster where your childhood was well i don't like saying difficult to people but it wasn't but it wasn't picture book was it wasn't ideal no you know it wasn't i think Picture book is actually an even better way to say it.

2:15It wasn't picture book, but, you know, I felt like I had a really good upbringing. I had a lovely family. You know, I ate well. It was all right. It wasn't perfect, but it was all right. Your mum kind of raised you and your siblings more or less on her own after you were about five. Very, very much completely. Like single mum. I'm the eldest of four girls. My mum did a good job of, I mean, she had a lovely family. I'm very, very close to my nan and to my aunties. But my mum raised us without my dad around, that's for sure. And your dad is Trinidadian, but your mum is white British. Yes, that's right.

2:53So were you aware from the start of a mixed heritage or was it just... Yeah, I was. But in that way, like if you, you know, East London is a melting pot. Well, exactly. So it's like everyone was something. Everyone was some concoction. It was never a thing that I thought about as like a disadvantage. I was like well you know it's like that's that's what I am and I mean school primary school ish sometimes well this is the bits that I'm going to find really interesting about this conversation is when things started sort of crystallizing and becoming clear because you you didn't I mean you've got quite severe dyslexia I think very but that wasn't discovered immediately no I didn't actually find out until my early 20s it was a boyfriend of mine that suggested um that perhaps I was dyslexic and I had a raging argument with him and then I was like maybe I'm dyslexic that could make a lot of sense I was just not a good student and it's interesting because I am an avid reader I loved school but I loved the social side of it I just couldn't get my arms around the work part of it not from a work ethic because I've always been a hard worker I literally couldn't see what was happening so would you work to little effect would you be peddling furiously and not Moving very fast.

4:06That's frustrating. I tried hard at math. I tried hard. And what actually happened is, you know, like in that way that people say that one amazing teacher can just change your life. I had two amazing teachers, Mrs. Walker and Mr. Reader. One was an art teacher. The other one was an English teacher. And both of them were like, just apply yourself to something else. And so I was like excellent in the art department. I did textiles. I did art. Do you still do home ec in England? Do you still do home economics? What are you asking me? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I don't think so.

4:35There was that cooking in school, you know, and I was just so good at that side of things. What did mum want for you? So when she was packing you off to school in the mornings, were there expectations? Were there aspirations? She didn't pack us off to school in the morning. She got up and went to work. So she was out the door at seven, straight into her job. And I got my three sisters, you know, I did the packed lunches, ironed the school shirt, took everyone to school and more often than not turned around, to be perfectly honest. Just because you couldn't, you didn't fancy it. I just, you know what, I didn't fancy it.

5:02I wasn't doing well and I you know it's so funny because you learn so much about yourself as an adult but I don't enjoy failing and so I think that I felt that as a kid and I just turned around and in my house to answer your question I could get away with it my mum would be like do do a load of washing and finish the ironing and you're good. Because you said that it was almost as if she was the dad and you were the mum sometimes. Yes and we have three kids together that's the that's the dynamic super healthy very productive. When did you well you must have realised pretty early that that wasn't normal, even by the standards of, you know.

5:34You know what? I thought that my job was to help my mum because my mum's job was to put food on the table. And I really felt like you do what you've got to do to make it smooth for your family. You're big on the work ethic, aren't you? Yeah. I mean, it runs through. And I learned that from my mum. I learned that from my mum and all of her family. They are and were grafters. But I thought I could work my way out of my situation. Like, I really believed that if I applied myself and I did enough that I could get out of plaster and get into something else. Into what? You know, I thought about fashion in the way some people think about the movies.

6:08Like, for me, it was a means of escapism. And if you go back to that time, I was born in 82. So we're talking late 80s, early 90s. Now, that was the golden era of British fashion. You think about the supermodels, Kate Moss, Naomi Campbell, Vivian Westwood. We had the clothes show on TV. And so, you know, you'd get a front page of the newspaper could be Naomi Campbell falling over. You know, so I looked at that and I was like, I want to work in that business. Where do you think you got the confidence that that was even possible? I don't know that I was confident. I have unbelievable self-belief.

6:42Where did that come from? I'm sure it was my mum. You know, she has this amazing saying. She used to say to me, you know, Emma, you're not better than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than you. That's nice. I believed her. okay you know i really thought i was like i if i work really hard i can do anything that i want i just thought that that was true so what is so this period of your childhood then is like a form of limbo school's not for you you're serving a purpose and you're being invaluable to your mom at home you're looking after your sisters but as a sense of waiting for your life to start or yeah i think what i thought was do anything to earn a buck like you know like as soon as you got a bit like i would wash cars in plasto i'd work in you know that again it was a very different day you know when it was like firework night for example you do two weeks in the newsagent selling fireworks and i was 12 you know no one they give you the keys to the cabinet and that's what you did you know i had a paper round i worked in a deli i used to sell shirts you know i do whatever i could do to make a buck okay so there's two tracks here there's the one that you're not on which is the traditional academic but you're certainly not unaspirational and you're seeing all of these other roles as stepping stones to and as yet unspecified but very very different existence from the one you're currently living plus there was always people in east london with a bit of money do you know what i mean like maybe not by the most savory means but there would be someone with a nice car someone who had like a good you know like would get double glazing or a satellite dish do you know what i mean and those were the signals back then and i was like i want that well why where did that come from do you think because you've said you know it was a it was a it was a happy home it was secure it was safe you were fed but you've got a desire and i've got no particular problem i don't want it to sound like i've got a problem with it we all love trappings we all love signs of of success or the rewards of a little bit of wealth why do you think that kicked in for you particularly i think that i the fashion business to me at that point wasn't about the artistry it was about the stuff you know it was about the glamour of it and i wanted to get out of a place that felt devoid of any glamour and any aspiration that was just that was my dream beautiful things just i loved i just loved it and now i had an aunt who married a guy whose sister had a membership to a country club and you would get to go there and you would say put it on the wibbly account please and me and my sisters used to put on like a fancy voice like how we imagine the queen would say put it on the wibbly account and i thought that is it like if you could put anything on an account and you could just like walk away with a free plate of food i thought you made it so in my head like i had these like little moments of stuff around me that i was like that's it that's the goal so like like you just like you've got your face pressed up against the window oh yeah i was like you want impressed i was like and you i love this idea because i mean it's not going to be every kid that grew up where you grew up or how you grew up who's going to think that i've got as much right to be there as anybody else does but that was a big driving force it was it was a big driving force and you know what the other thing is that my mum had a job at morgan stanley so she worked in the beginning she was in the west end and then when they opened those uh you know when canary wolf opened and that was very aspirational to me that that you could go and and it's a look as well isn't it i mean that canary wolf in those days was like a film set it was it was like it was also clean there was marble everywhere and i did my work experience there you know it's like because i was good at cooking i went in and i had chef whites and these little buttons that you would pop through and you just saw all these very fabulous people mostly men um and specifically like mostly white men in these very high powered jobs and i was like oh i'm gonna do that i'm gonna be exactly like them i'm gonna ask a question i was gonna save for a little bit later in the program but it's it's popping into my head already which is that you you are and and i don't think you're given to false modesty and nor should you be but you're you're obviously extraordinary as is already being established in these moments of simply by then i mean even if it had come to nothing simply by dint of thinking i'm going to be walking up that escalator i'm going to be in that office i'm going to be that person one day and and and you are but when you come to write books and you come to help other people with with the new vision for work and life is is it it's a little bit tricky when you remember or when you acknowledge that not everybody is extraordinary is that some of your natural gifts are going to have put you in a position that is not within the reach of everybody else you know it's so interesting because now i employ so many people right i have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of staff and what you realize um is that not everybody has your energy not everybody has the ability and not everybody wants it and so what was the default for me like to imagine that everyone was an ambitious hungry little monster i've realized over the years that that's not quite the case and that's okay right because if everybody was like that they'd just be you know the world would be unbearable but i've realized that you know i have like an unbelievable work ethic and i'm kind of insatiable and that only works for a finite amount of people and so when you work with me it can even be incredibly fueling or you're just going to tire out in three months and be like this is not for me so i definitely have seen that and when you come to provide or to offer help and guidance to to other people that what works for you isn't necessarily going to work well how do you sort of edit your process in the advice that you give and the well most people that come to me are thinking more about the book than the well i mean listen i think if you try to be something to everyone you're nothing to no one i wrote a book that is about ambition it's about people that want have a like a big idea of their lives that doesn't mean to like billions of pounds but it means i have an idea of myself that i think is expansive that i want something else and that's who i wrote the book for and i you know i really am of the mindset that you know other people's opinion of me is just not my business you know what i mean and so i really just try to do what I do for the people that I do it and if you don't like it I'm like you probably shouldn't read it.

12:58I wasn't suggesting people wouldn't like it. I think there's people that don't like it. I can hear your voice now I've actually heard it for a while. The voice comes across. Oh really? Yeah but it's like being spoken to. Yes It's intimate actually. Yes it's true It's got a touch of the sort of come here let me have a word let me give you something. And that's what I really wanted to do because people stop me and ask me all the time they're like how did you you know I was in an office it was so funny actually the World Trade Centre in New York the other day and there were these girls like promo girls they were dressed up to do something for Jane Fonda so they had like that Jane Fonda you know like a leg warmer and little leotards and this girl was like oh you're Emma Greed and I was like yeah and she's like I'm from Dagnum and I was like hello and she said I just want to know like how did you get there and I was like get where and she's like like there here like how are you here where are you going I was going to Vogue I didn't even want to tell her I was like oh you know um but that's what I wanted to solve with the book that actually it's so much more about self-leadership and a mindset and what you do with what you've got as opposed to this like great unlock that people imagine i found like some 25th hour in the day yeah or a golden ticket isn't it so i wanted to give you know and i think that sometimes we can be a bit gatekeepery you know like when we get information we don't necessarily want everyone to know and i'm the opposite of that i'm like tell everyone we need like a million little girls from East London that can actually not be so great at school and can do great things anyway.

14:30You've written that the more traditional paths to elements of the lifestyle that you've secured subsequently would have been from Plasso to become a DJ's girlfriend or a footballer's side piece or to marry a gangster. Yeah. All of those were options. Well, yeah, but I sense not very serious options. No. And for me, it was never my cup of tea. You know, that was what was around me. But I was like, oh, I've got to find a better boyfriend than that. Yes. And passports. Where did you find passports? So not a boyfriend, not a partner. So you've got like two chemicals, haven't you? And you need a catalyst to make them react together.

15:08Were you thinking like that? Were you sort of thinking, I need to find something? Or do you just need to get to places where things will happen? You know, for me, I envisaged that I just needed to be in the right. In the room where it happened. Yeah. And so I put myself, you know, back in those days, you would write letters, like literally. And when I didn't get answers to letters, I'd be like, they didn't get the letter. Like there was nothing in me that was like, no, like, you know, they don't, they're not interested in me. I would literally knock on doors of PR agencies and say, hey, I don't think you got my letter.

15:41And when you're there and you're, you know, ready and willing, people just go for it. they're like yeah go on come in that that's one of the best kept secrets out there isn't it is the number of people who don't knock on doors because they think there's so many people knocking on doors that no one's ever going to answer no one's knocking on doors no like no one's actually making the call i speak to people all the time that go you know i'd love to have my brand in sacks i'm like did you call them yeah yeah yeah no of course not they'd be too busy they've got too many people calling them it's a lot of you know what exists in our minds doesn't necessarily always come out People say all the time, I want to be paid 200 grand.

16:13And I'm like, OK, does anyone in your place of work understand that? Because maybe they'll give you a path. Maybe there is a way. And so much of what I talk about is about this idea of demystifying what it is that we want. And it's not necessarily asking for what we want, but it's being realistic about that. So you come out of school unburdened by qualifications. Or debts, as I like to think about it. Unburdened by qualifications. is absolutely correct. That's a much healthier way of putting it. A couple of GCSEs. Yeah. I've got an A star in something. But you know what you love. You love Vogue.

16:48You love Marie Claire. You love Elle. Your bedroom wall is covered in Chanel advertisements. I mean, there's a little bit of family history here. Your mum had been, I think she'd worked in the Burlington Arcade as a window dresser. She did, for a small period. But I have an image of someone who really takes care of how she presents herself as well. Absolutely, my whole family. Very much like that. So there's inspiration there. and you're thinking what paths London College of Fashion becoming the most obvious when you're 16. Yes. So here's a thought that I had. You almost feel as if you'd be impatient before you got there.

17:24Definitely. Were you? A million percent. End of the first day. Nothing's happened. I just wanted to go to work. I couldn't understand it. I was like, we're sitting in these lectures. I was like, the teacher had a part-time job at Topshop. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. I was like, this is not my life. And actually what happened is I got a couple of work placements. I learned more in the work placements in two weeks. Where were the work placements? So I did this amazing company that was called Aurelia PR. And at the time, they had all these great... It was actually started by a woman called Aurelia.

17:53Aurelia what? And it was in Chelsea. I don't know, actually. I think I knew her. She had red hair. She was amazing. She was like a thing in Chelsea. Yeah. At this beautiful office. And they represented Versace and Elie Saab and a load of designs. So I... Jaguar, Verve Clicquot. I do. Yeah. I was a gossip columnist on the Daily Express at the time. Really? Oh, yeah, it was a thing. So she'd arrange parties that we would have. Yes, she would arrange the parties. There you go, small world. So that was a major thing for me. I worked at Quintessentially, which was Ben Elliott and Tom Parker Bowles.

18:19And when you say an internship, were they paying you or were you not at all? No, not a sausage. Cheeky. Nothing. But, you know, back in those days, let me tell you, it was a gift at the time. So I'm a negotiator. I went in. I was like, listen, I need you to put 50 quid a week on my oyster. I need my lunch paid for. 17, 16? I was, yeah, exactly, like 16, 17. And I just went for it. And in those days, because you could get your foot in the door. Yeah, that's true. And for me, I'd work Monday through Thursday. And then I'd work in a shop Friday, Saturday, Sunday. For money. For money. And so I could subsidize it.

18:52And so it was just my way of just getting in. What were you collecting in those two placements? Those two, I think. Oh, so much experience. But did you know that? Before you got there, you knew what you wanted to get. Also, I told him. you know I went there and I was like is there a full-time job here and they're like well not for not for you there are jobs here and um inevitably I did end up getting a full-time job out of one of those work placements but you had to you know I kissed a lot of frogs I went around and what I learned was all the things I didn't want to do I was like I don't want to be a publicist I don't want to be a journalist I don't want to be a buyer I don't want to work in a small fashion company and I just like went around but I got contacts and actually it was Ben Elliott who said to me I've got a friend with a production company and then I wrote to the production company and you know like one thing like led to another.

19:39And you know what the crazy thing is in this press circuit that I've just done for the book. I met three journalists that I used to work for. OK. Which is crazy because like the what you know they say it's like small at the top. No it's absolutely minuscule. And so it's interesting about when you think about your reputation when you think about those relationships relationships were so important especially in an industry like fashion. where there's no, you know, there's not an obvious workup. No, I get that. And you had, it's interesting, isn't it? You didn't have a really clear idea of where you wanted to be.

20:12No, I didn't know what the jobs were. But you zoned in on it by shedding all the things that you worked out you didn't want to be. It's a process of elimination. I didn't know what the jobs were. And how much rejection? How much was elimination and how much was rejection? Oh, my God. Sometimes you would go to places and they'd be like, there is nothing for you to do here. And I was like, but guys, I'm working for free. I need you to give me a try. I need to show you what I can do. Sometimes I would leave. I remember there was a couple of them where I was just like, what is happening? I can't like do nothing.

20:34You know, they put you in a cupboard and I'd be like, well, there's no exposure, no nothing. And so you just get out of there. But other times they'd absolutely rinse you. Do you know what I mean? You'd be there till 11 p.m. And that's what you preferred. I was like, let's just go for it. I was happy to be taken advantage of. I'm really honest, because I was like, this is all for me. I was like, who is this for? It's just for me. And you believed that it was going to lead somewhere. Some people get downcast in those sort of situations because they can't see where it's going to lead. but you were moving around so much.

21:01But that's your job. You know, your job is to have the vision to see what it's going to do. Yeah, but not everybody gets that. No, but I really got it. How many letters do you think you sent? Oh, definitely more than 100. Just literally everything that sounded vaguely feasible for you. Every single thing, you know, in these agencies. Can I come and have a go? Can I come and have a go? Every single, I went down, back in those days, you know, London Fashion Week had a schedule. I wrote to every single person. I wrote to every single PR agency. I wrote to every single buyer. I wrote to every single shop on the high street.

21:28I went, you know, London College of Fashion, is just off of Oxford Street. So I went down Oxford Street. I made a list of every store, starting from Selfridges, obviously, high aspirations, all the way to BHS, whatever we can get. And so I just went down. And I remember Sir Philip Green. This is how much audacity I had. Sir Philip Green was like a patron or something. Maybe he's not a sir anymore. But anyway, different conversation for a different time. But I remember he came and did a college visit and I gave him my resume. And he went, oh, I love it. And he sort of handed it to someone. and I remember thinking you're lost you're nuts I was like I would kill it at Topshop so you're there 17 coming on 18 and if I'd met you then and said what do you want to be or where do you want to be when you're 30 what would you have said?

22:14any job in fashion anywhere close to a fashion designer I liked creative people because that wasn't what I'd ever seen I thought they were all nuts but I enjoyed the eccentricity I enjoyed like seeing that process I thought someone that could draw was a genius you know and i was like that's so cool that you could draw something and make it and what was it feeding do you think inside you what was that because it had never really been fed before except by those teachers who spotted something what was it that was it was being fulfilled it was everything that i didn't know you know what i saw were people that got up every day and drove a van yeah and went to a job that they didn't really like and came home you know with the money that they needed to make their life work and when I saw these people they were like so creatively fulfilled and I didn't even know that that was a thing I was like oh my god imagine you bounced into work every day and did something you loved like what what a joke like I was like that can't be real that's it isn't it that's the crux of it imagine if you got up every day and went to do something for money that you'd actually happily do for free yeah I couldn't even fathom that that was how a lot of people lived and the funny thing was all the work placements were like in west london yes and so i was like maybe you've got to go down the west end to find one of these you know i kind of equated it to the place and so i mean it was so silly but that was the level of naivety that i had then i was like i have to get on the train and go to the west end and that's where i'll find that naivety it's also a superpower because if you'd had too much self doubt or you'd been sitting there doing too much calculation and overthinking you never would have done it it's a fact yeah um what was your relationship with your own creativity because the most obvious thing to do would be to aspire to design stuff and things like that you're absolutely right and i knew that wasn't my part already well you know what it is i had a sister that was an excellent artist and i knew i wasn't as good as her my other sister was like a real athlete my other sister was like a math whiz and i was like i'm none of those things i'm not as good as the people that I'm sharing a bedroom with, right?

24:16So I knew that. And I learned quickly what my superpower was. I am very, I'm like a natural negotiator. I used to do that in school, in the playground. I could stop someone from getting beat up. I could stop someone from getting their stuff nicked. I could sell anything to anyone. It didn't matter if I was making sandwiches. I could upsell the brie that they were trying to get rid of that day. I could sell a hamper in the deli to someone who came in for a coffee. So I knew that about myself. And I was like, oh, I'm going to be in sales. That's how I thought about it. That's why I went down the buyer route.

24:50And then I understood, oh, no, you're not good at sales. You're a negotiator. That was like the early signal to me. I was like, oh, I can negotiate stuff and leave two people feeling happy, even though I'm the happiest. And when did you start? When did you spot that would be a career? So you go from quintessentially to Inca Productions. Absolutely. And at Inca, I got into, I was doing show production to begin with. And then I think that they noticed very much that in me and moved me over into the sponsorship division. So I would be doing. That's negotiations. Yeah, putting brands together with fashion designers.

25:26And I was really, really good at it. Was it still quite a new art form? It was. There wasn't even a way to price for it. No. I remember having conversations and calling like a family friend who's a soccer agent. Oh, my God, I can't believe I just said soccer in England. Soccer. How dare you? Get out. I mean, that's unbelievable. That's all right. I called this family friend who was a football agent, and I said, how on earth he represented... We're not taking that out. No, no, no. Kill me. Kill me in England. I called him up, and he represented Sol Campbell at the time, and I was like, can you just explain to me how these Sol Campbell deals work?

26:03Like, when he gets a deal with Nike or whatever it was, he's like, what are you talking about? I was like, how do you get paid? How do you get your money? Sol gets his. They give him the money. He said, you take a commission, you silly sausage. And I was like, how much? He said, 10%. Well, my deals were like tiny, you know. So I was like, I'll take 20. I'll take 20%. And so that was the model. And I basically built this little division at this little company. And it was really good. And I was like, you take 20%. Did you think then this is, because a lot of things in that era, it's not around a similar time that dot-com was kicking off as well, isn't it?

26:34And so a lot of things that looked like they were going to make tons of money for tons of people ended up doing absolutely nothing. thing yeah this is in a similar sort of gestatory period where it could be huge or it could actually just wither and die or it could be replaced by some big businesses that have already got their situations in place swooping in and did you have any a feeling in your bones that this was going to be a big world or that i didn't have an inkling i i never even thought about it at that point i was like just do it just take the opportunity meet the people you know when they tell you like we used to have new business targets yeah i never had a problem in new business targets because i wanted to meet 20 people and they wanted me to make 10 phone calls so I was like I thought that I was working for myself so you've got when I wasn't you've got rid of all the things you knew you didn't want to do you stumbled into this role absolutely and after what a month a week a day an hour you think this is it this is it this is what I was always this is what was all heading towards early I was I'm in the right place yeah and I stayed there for six years too long actually when I look back at it.

27:36By your standards. I was learning. By your standards, it's far too late to practice. What the hell am I doing? But I learned a lot there. Can we talk about class a bit? Because I'm struck by, I mean, quintessentially, it's about as posh as it comes. It's the poshest place on earth. These are the poshest people on the planet. Yes. And I was there when it was just them. It wasn't a big company. There were like 10 of us in the office. And that was not your milieu? No. But you didn't feel intimidated? you didn't feel no because you know the funny thing was i was like these lot couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery i was like i literally was like you know when you help raise free kids i could make a full roast dinner when i was 11 yeah i was like these silly sausages they were like ordering catering and they didn't have plates and they you know i was i have such a process that i would go through i was like organize a cocktail party for 50 people yeah do a shoot for 30 dudes I was like, that's so easy.

28:33It never fazed me. And I couldn't understand why everybody would be like, like that's, you know, so much to do. And it was like, again, if you, I was raised getting up, making my bed, making breakfast for the kids, making packed lunches, ironing school shirts, contributing to a household. And so nothing was ever a problem for me. Well, because your role was clear. Your routine was clear. The more middle class you are, the more you worry about whether you're doing things right and whether you're fitting in or whether people are looking down on you. The more in the middle you are, the more conscious you are of what's above you and what's below.

29:03If you've got a clear role and a clear place in the universe from an early age, I suppose it's quite liberating in a way. I think that it must have been. But I never concerned myself with what they thought of me. You know, I thought very highly of myself. No, no kidding. You know, it's like I walked into quintessentially and I was like, oh, they need someone like me. Yeah. Because not everybody is going to fancy like them. And the funny thing was, I was so right. Because people would say, oh, you know, we'd like to deal with Emma. Or we would like Emma to be here this evening. Because I was, you know.

29:39And did you encounter any snobbery? Oh, my God, so much snobbery. Half of it would have gone over my head. I nearly said good then. Yeah, good. Thank God. I didn't mean it like that. Something like that. I didn't mean it like that. Yeah, there was snobbery. But you know what? I didn't. Either I didn't understand it. I remember being so annoyed because I was by far the person, you know, doing the most work, having the best results. And this other kind of treble barreled surname intern got this opportunity. And I was I was raging. I was steaming. I was like, what is this? And they were like, well, darling, into the family friend.

30:17I was like, fuck family friends. Like, what is that? And I was so annoyed. And I told it I was like, you have to. that can't be it I was like that's my job I deserve that and and this is you know I was like that's that's crazy and I thought at the time I was like oh you know was I not the right profile for that role did they want somebody that didn't look like me and it I don't know maybe I thought that for three whole minutes and then I was like no that's crazy don't think about that I deserve this and I'm gonna jolly well get it absolutely absolutely and then it was really funny because and they went to your will yes they did they gave me they offered me a full-time job and then this other thing came in with inca and i took that instead i was like sorry thank you see you who did you talk to during this period because i mean you value friendships clearly i know that you've been seeing a lot of people from the old days while you're back in in the uk for a while and these are friends who you've had all your all your life all my life but but this is a language that hardly anybody speaks i mean you know i've been in the media for 30 years i don't speak half of the language that you're speaking now so how on earth did you kind of relate to people from home or or explain to people or confide or didn't you did was there nobody who got it i don't think i did i don't think any of my friends got it and there's been so it's so funny because as i wrote the book i realized that there's been a bunch of times when my own best friends have been like what are you on like what are you what are you doing and i think they all just chalked it up to like you know there is a saying in my friend and family group let emma be emma you know my husband says it all the time like he just sort of rolls his eyes and goes let emma be emma um and so that's what i did but i don't think i ever confided in anyone because it wasn't helpful my mom told me don't do all the free work placements she was like they're taking the piss well they were on the one hand but you were taking something from them as well you know i was like but but i am i'm aren't i the one taking the piss i was like are you kidding they want me five days a week there and I get to do four yeah and I take all this stuff from them you know it's like because I would copy them you know when when when Ben Elliott and Tom Parker Bowles used to speak I used to copy I'd be like I'd write it down they'd say something like um oh there's a much more elegant approach and I'd be like an elegant approach what a genius thing to say you know and so I would write things down and then I would emulate them not in that voice but I would take it in and i use it so vocabulary phraseology you weren't you weren't doing an eliza doolette imagine i would have literally got like you could i mean i know people who did you know i didn't because i knew that the way that i spoke was what set me apart because back in the end days everything was on the phone right no one's going to forget you no one could forget me i'd be curly hair i'm you know mixed and so anyone who saw me and heard me they'd be like oh my you know i remember somebody saying she's like a cockney barrow boy and i was like are you absolutely insane yeah you know but i was like all right well you ain't gonna forget me are you

33:25this is moving then you've found the thing that you are good at but but but before that happened given your school experiences where did your intellectual confidence come from where did the knowledge that you are at least as clever as when we live in a world right where cleverness is usually measured by educational achievement you've got you're now working with two old detonians who are the embodiment of of not them personally but this is the kind of school i went to yeah but also your parents pay an awful lot of money to make sure you've got the a levels that kind of prove that you're clever so you get into the university where you get the degree that proves that you're clever you had none of that but your confidence in your own intelligence was not only well founded but but also considerable where did that come from um you know i learned to read newspapers when i was little when i was delivering the papers um my stepdad my youngest sister's dad was very good at giving me some exposure to things like he would watch the news all the time um my bedtime you know when i was little was like 9 30 and he would be that you should watch the news at 10 like a there's like this brilliant black man who you know trevor mcdonald that has the news that hosts the news at 10 and there's like really good stuff that you should know there and so i just i learned that it would be useful to be in learning mode because i wasn't in learning mode when i was supposed to so in my late teens i kind of was like i i had an insatiable appetite to learn ask questions and i'm naturally very curious so when I got into these work placements I would always ask questions like I was like who are you what do you do and you understood the answers yeah and if I didn't I'd figure it out with your undiagnosed dyslexia you might not be able to work your way through some books in certain ways but you never felt I don't understand that it was never like no being confronted with something that was impenetrable to you no absolutely not I just uh if I was if I were looking like back in school at math absolutely but there was never there was never like ideas that i couldn't understand and if i didn't understand you know if i've read something like about the bull and bear market i'd be like i'm gonna figure i'm gonna ask someone yeah and i don't wait to know what to ask and i think that that is so much a part of who i am now yeah because i will just figure it out and and when you were moving into this world and you needed numbers how did you overcome that when when you just said maths was a...

35:58I've always been very good at surrounding myself with the right people. I never felt embarrassed to ask. Like, I know what I know. And I always thought about the things that I had as a superpower. And I was like, you're not supposed to be good at everything. I mean, so much of what I talk about in this book is this idea that, you know, when a woman goes into business, there's an idea that she has to be all things to all people and she should know everything. And that's just not what I've seen with any men that I've been surrounded with. They always have their thing that they're good at and they can make everyone else do everything else.