From The Vault: Miriam Margolyes

26:45Would you mind having a chat? Shall we have a chat? What do they do? They have a chat. And sometimes, very occasionally, people say, well, actually, I'm a bit busy this morning. and rush off actually to that end Judy Dench I think revealed that during because you live near her daughter Fincie during lockdown you'd be sitting on your doorstep starting conversations with passers-by to alleviate the monotony and the boredom but also because you were really interested presumably in what stories these passers-by might have to share so here's the weird thing Miriam that we talk about the show off gene sometimes on this podcast or the look at me gene you clearly have it in spades In spades, yes.

27:24But at the same time, it's not to the exclusion of fascination with other people. I mean, they don't often go hand in hand. There's genuine voracious appetite for other people and knowing them and understanding them. I suppose what I'm saying is that the look at me, Jean, is often quite conceited. But yours isn't at all. I don't think it is. I have wondered about that because I'm capable of conceit. But I'm also actually quite humble knowing what I have to offer is not that considerable. And people are fascinating. Hearing people's stories, hearing the hurt that people go through and the experiences that others have.

28:10It is fascinating. And that's compelling. And while I talk to people, they are more interesting than I am. I want to know their story. To you, they are more interested than you are. Yes, genuinely so. And I think that's why my documentaries have been successful. Yes. Because I'm lucky enough to have researchers who find the people. I don't find them. But once they're found, I know how to talk to them so that they reveal themselves. And people revealing themselves is the most thrilling thing you can imagine. and you can't teach that or learn it i don't know if you can that's an innate fascination i think it has to be an innate longing curiosity so i was going to ask you this later but you've mentioned the documentaries if what would you have been if you hadn't been an actress what else was on the agenda when you were at cambridge and you joined the footlights and you started thinking do you know what i could do this for a living what else what were the other contenders my mother wanted me to be a barrister and I did join up Grey's Inn and ate the dinners and that's actually where I met some antisemitism as well but that wasn't ever going to be for me I'm just not it's a triple it's a trident often again for people who've been on this series that acting law journalism or politics that's four prongs actually but you did so you could I could have seen you as a journalist or a writer.

29:43I could have been a journalist, I think. I thought I would have been a probation officer because I like helping people and doing good. And I love crims. I can't help being fascinated by those beyond the law, outside the law. And by redemption or just literally by criminality? Well, by criminality, I think. I want to understand. Why do you do that? And remember, my great-grandfather was a criminal. Yes, seven years in... In hard labour, in park her style of white. Was that carried as a stigma by the family or was that... It was never mentioned. Completely stunned. I didn't know anything about it.

30:31And I still don't know whether my mother knew. Really? She never told me and I never spoke about it then because I didn't find out till much later. But it was a shameful thing in those days. I mean, this is 1877 he was sent down. It's incredible, isn't it? It is. But I wondered if... I've always felt on the side of the underdog, you see. Simeon Sandman. No. Sigismund. No, Sigismund was my grandfather. Yes. Simon. Simon Sandman. Sandman. Back to Cambridge. Join the Footlights. That wasn't a success. Well, it was, I mean, for one of a... Professionally, I mean, in terms of performances, it was a success.

31:15It got me into radio because John Bridges, who was a radio producer at the BBC, came down and saw me in Double Take in 1962. When I left the following year, I wrote to him and asked him to get me an audition if he could. And he got me an audition, and I joined the BBC drama repertory company in 1965. And that was the launch, as it were. That was the launch. So, I mean, at Cambridge you decided, I'm going to have a crack at this. I can do this for a living. This is me. This is what I want to do. Well, I knew I wanted to act. Before, even. Not at school. I thought I would be a doctor at school because Daddy was a doctor.

31:52And how did they respond when you came? Because, I mean, it's not really many parents' dreams, particularly for a daughter to come home and say, I'm going on the stage, Mrs Worthington. Well, it was Mummy's dream. It still was. She wanted me because that's what she had wanted. And she was gifted. She was in the finals of the Golden Voice competition of 1936, which was the Britain's Got Talent of the day. Incredible, isn't it? Daddy was very disturbed. He was a sober, somber man and he didn't approve at all. And I like telling this that when I started in the business, you know, he would say, what is your income?

32:31And I would tell him what my income was. He'd say, oh, dear. but later later when I I got to make money he'd say and what is your income now and I said whatever it was he said oh really that's where it comes from then because people have commented on your fascination with finances quite a childlike glee or or I mean utterly indiscreet but talking about what you earn and where you get money from you drop into conversation how much you get paid for appearing on the Graham Norton show and just little and then big paychecks like you got with Harry Potter. It's a very un-English approach to money, isn't it?

33:07I suppose it is, but I'm a trade union member of Equity and it's in the workers' interests to have information. And so I've always talked about my income with my colleagues because they should know what you earn because it helps them to quantify what they should get. Of course, yeah. And I think, you know, I love money. I think it's great. I just want everyone to have it. Yes. So I don't think it's something that you shouldn't talk about. That's very English. I mean, the things that matter. I agree. Money, sex, religion and politics. And you're not supposed to talk about any of those. But you would be happy talking about nothing else, wouldn't you?

33:48Forever, really. Absolutely. Those four subjects. And I mean, again, it's this curious dichotomy between being famous for performing as other, for playing other people. And yet having such a huge personality. That sounds like something dreadful. But having such a complete sense of self and sense of what's important and really wanting to dig into the weeds of existence. I have a warm personality, I think. I mean, when I look at you and when I look at other people, I don't frighten them and I don't overaw them. I hope that I cuddle them. My look is an embrace to say I'm here and you're here and how lovely that is.

34:28and I think that's why people are not, don't clam up when I'm around. They want to share their lives because I want to hear it. I want to hear. I want to hear your life. You should be the other way around. I would love that. You should be interviewing me. I would love to know what made you you. Yes. You know, just as you want to know what made me you. Well, that's why I do this project. I mean, that's exactly the same appetite. Well, let's carry on trying to find out what made you you. So briefly, people were horrible to you at Cambridge, including famous people. Only the Footlights boys. Everybody else was adorable.

35:07And some of these Footlights boys went on to be the most famous performers of their generation. Deservedly so. Right. And still are horrid. So, you know, people are what they are. I was good. Right. And they didn't like that. No. How did you know you were good? Because I got the laughs and I got the notices. That's how they knew you were good as well. So you come out of Cambridge and radio and voice work for a while was the bread and butter. I think it always will be and it always has been right through my career. I've always done radio plays, recorded books. By the way, my book is an Audible book.

35:49Doing it yourself. And people can buy it on Audible. That's a selling point, isn't it? It's actually number one at the moment. I'm rather pleased. Congratulations. I'm not surprised, though, frankly. So, I mean, including some quite fruity jobs. Yeah. Well, only a couple of times I made an audio, not visual, audio porn tape. And it was called Sexy Sonia, Leaves from My Schoolgirl Diary. And it was just an account of various moments of tumescence. Yes. that I observed as a schoolgirl. How would people have, what would I have done? Bought an LP or a table or something? How was it? Oh, cassette, I think, in those days.

36:34Was it on cassette? You'd go to a special shop somewhere, Cecil Court or somewhere like that. Yeah, Ann Summers, I think, was the main stockist. And you were also the voice of the rabbit in the caramel, Cadbury's Caramel, which gave an awful lot of pubescent boys all manner of conflict and confusion. It's delightful to think of it. I mean, for me, it was a job and great fun. And I did a lot of jolly good commercials, Mannequin Cigar, which was very, well, me trying to be a West Indian, but very soft like that, you know. Oh, God. Tobacco come from middle, middle leaf best, make mannequin cigar special.

37:25It was that much fun. The work for actors, for all actors, divides, doesn't it, between the job and the livelihood and then the art and the magic, as it were. When did you start getting both? Because some of the radio stuff you did was very high. Yes, I did some good radio work. I think actually it wasn't until I did my Dickens Women. Gosh, that long? It took a long time because I've always been regarded as a roly-poly character actress. Okay. And they are right. That is exactly what I am. But I could have been more than that if I'd had the chance. But I didn't. I wish I'd done more Shakespeare.

38:15I wish I'd done more classical stuff, you know. But what I did, I think I did pretty well. And I'm grateful for those opportunities. When did ambition, where does ambition fit into this story, this life? I mean, ambition in the cold and conventional sense of the word. In the beginning, it was very hard to get started. Right. And it was only ambition and mummy saying, you're good, don't give up, just keep going that gave me confidence to go in for an audition and try and get an agent and so on. But nobody thinks that they've had the career they should have done. Do you not? I mean, so you sort of think of the canon, is it?

39:03And you think of, I don't know, Desdemona or Ophelia or stuff like that? Well, I would have liked to have done more Chekhov. Yes. I think that's where I could have been quite good You've done Beckett Yes, but that was very much later Only about eight years ago So when does that act start then? So it's with the Dickens stuff Yes, I think after I did my Dickens play So it's 89? It started in 86 Okay 86. Sonia Fraser and I took it down to Frank Dunlop at the Edinburgh Festival and he commissioned it. Right. We pitched it to him. And after that, people thought, oh, she's quite good, actually. Because I did 23 different characters and I told the story of Dickens' life, going in and out of the narrative into different characters.

40:05and I was protean. I changed. Right. And that's magic in theatre when people transform in front of you. I always remember the first night in Edinburgh when the curtain dropped. Well, there was no curtain. It was a medical theatre and the lights went out and there was complete silence and I had no idea if it was a good silence or a bad one and then the cheering started and the lights came up and that was unforgettable. Of course. Because it was not just, I mean, it was everything of you. It was the brain and the bones. Yes, it was absolutely a fulcrum for all the things that I believed in and wanted to do.

40:51I had managed to pull it off in one piece through Sonia, directing me so brilliantly and writing it with me. And that moment is one I treasure. Yes. And remember fondly often. And it becomes a huge pivot then professionally. I mean, is that partly because of how other people came to see you differently, but not everybody would have seen that show, but partly because of how you came to see yourself? Yes. A new gear of self-belief, perhaps. Yes, I thought I was worth it. Right. And you hadn't previously. Well, I thought... Because you'd done a lot. You'd done an awful lot. Film and radio. I had, but it was always cameos.

41:32Okay. It's funny. Now, you know, I do something that's called cameo, and it's when celebrities... Do you do that? I do, because you get paid for it. I do. It's amazing. Happy birthday and stuff like that. Yes, you know, John Bercow does it as well. Does he really? And I really admire him. Because he's got that booming voice, I suppose. What would your dad say? How much he earning for that? Yeah, he probably would. He probably would. but I get a buzz out of it. It's fun. I'm sure your clients are delighted. You've got five-star reviews coming out of your ears. I do. I'm glad to say. So I like this pivotal point.

42:07So prior to that, you'd done around the same time, actually. Again, it's not a cameo. It's more than a cameo, but you did Flora Finching in Little Dorrit, didn't you? And I won the LA Critics Circle Award for that. Yes. And that's what took me to America. Right. Having the confidence of an award because lots of people go to America on spec. Yes. But if you've got an award in your pocket, you propel yourself just that bit above the hoi polloi. But as we just started talking about, ambition isn't something that that word doesn't seem to fit you. And yet you wanted to do better work. Is that what we're talking about here?

42:48Yes, I did want to do and I still want to. I'm still hopeful. But I'm to some extent satisfied. I think if I died tomorrow, I would say, well, I'm sorry I didn't do more Shakespeare, but I did all right. Yeah, except that, you know, we're looking at doing the Scorsese, doing the Baz Luhrmann, doing the Harry Potters, doing the... I mean, an astonishing... People, I think, would be surprised. And then the stage stuff, doing Wicked. People would be surprised to hear you say that, I think, don't you? Well, I mean, I can't speak for people if they're surprised. I honestly believe there isn't an actress alive who doesn't feel that they should have had a better career.

43:36Even Judi Dench probably thinks there were things that she didn't do that she would have liked to have done. It's what gets you out of bed in the morning, I suppose, isn't it? Yes. So tell me about arriving in Los Angeles, arriving in America. Well, that was a big piece of fun. I mean, I said to Menachem Golan, who was the, that was the first time I went, when I went from the critic circle. He was the producer of Little Dorrit, which is what I won it for. And I said to him, I want you to pay for my hotel in New York three nights. I will pay everything else, but I want three nights in the best hotel in New York.

44:24And he did do it. He did give me that. I went over economy, of course. And Pat Hodge advised me on my wardrobe because she's such a good friend and since the Girls of Slender Means. And she's good on wardrobe. And so I kitted myself out and I got to the Plaza Hotel. That's where I was put. I got myself a publicist and she got me on the equivalent of This Morning. I can't remember what it was called, The Morning Show on CBS with Katie Couric. That's right. And she interviewed me and Johnny Carson happened to see it and he thought, oh, she's quite interesting. And so they flew me down to L.A. And that's how I got an agent and how I got Norman Lear and how I got something like$250 ,000 a year just to be there.

45:22It was amazing. What are you doing inside at this point? Is it like being in a safari park or is it like being in a... I was laughing. Yes, that's what I mean. It's just laughing. It's just hilarious. Yes, I was very lucky and I met lots of lovely people and made lots of friends. and I lived in Santa Monica on Ocean Avenue and it was a very luxy time of my life. And then there's some massive films a few years later as well, isn't there? Yes. The Age of Innocence, most obviously perhaps. That was a wonderful experience. It got you a BAFTA. Should probably have got you an Oscar, shouldn't it? Well, I think I should have been nominated but that little twit, Winona Ryder, She managed to oust it from me.

46:11And I'm not fond of her. Why do you do that, do you think? Because there's a long list of people that you've gone on the record. You don't have to. You just feel the need. No, I mean, I say whom I love as well. You do. No, that's very true. I don't just hate people and I don't hate her. But she got in my way. Yes. And in a very unfair way because she wrote to every single member of the Hollywood Press Association. Is that right? Lobbied. She lobbied. She lobbied. But people do that in Hollywood. They didn't know that. They do that. I wasn't going to do that, but she did it. And she got the nomination.

46:51And then I think she got, did she get the Oscar? I think she might have done. And Romeo and Juliet, you've also had slightly unkind things to say about Leonardo DiCaprio. No, not unkind. No, OK, sorry. Well, he would think they were unkind. Oh, well, I hope he wouldn't. No? Look, he was smelly. Yeah. It's not... But he's not smelly now. Are you sure he might be? I am sure because I've met him. He looked smelly in that era. He looked a bit smelly. Well, he was. Yes. He just didn't bother to wash. Oof. And when you're in Mexico, it's hot. No. So, you know. When did you start getting recognised in the street then?

47:24By, forgive the term, by normal people as opposed to by theatrical types or... I think it was after Harry Potter Was it really? Not after Romeo and Juliet even No, I don't think it was after Romeo and Juliet But after Harry Potter Yes What was that like? It's lovely I love it I love it when people come up to me and it's just magical I mean today when I was having lunch in Great Portland Street sitting outside and lots of people came up to me and I just love it ask for photographs. Professor Sprout. So that's another pivot then. So we've got the Dickens stuff. So Act 1 up until, of the career, Act 1 up until the Dickens show, Act 2 up until Harry Potter, and then Act 3 when you have this lovely pick and mix career really.

48:21People ring you up and say, do you want to come and do the real Marigold Hotel with some lovely people and some right arses? Do you want to make a documentary? Do you want to work with Alan Cumming, who you must have loved many years? I've known him a long time. He's been here and I can see why you're so close. Well, he's very open and honest too. I think Graham Norton's had a lot to do with it, I have to say, because I was on a programme with him, his programme, and I had a very successful time with Will.i.am. Yes, I know, I saw that. And that seemed to, people seemed to relish it. And then I got asked back.

49:02And so I get onto these chat shows and it's lovely and I meet people. So there's a chicken and egg thing going on there. Without Professor Sprout, you probably wouldn't have been famous enough to get onto the chat show. Oh, absolutely. And then, of course, the chat show personality develops its own momentum and draws new offers and new things to do. Do you say no to a lot now? Oh, yes, I do. When did you start saying no to a lot of stuff? Post-Potter? Yes, probably post-Potter. Yes, there are some things I won't do. So how do you choose then? How do you decide what's going to do? Well, I talk to Lindy King, my agent at United Agents, and Olivia Homan and Gabriella Cap.

49:46I mean, there's so many people in the agency, I forget who they are sometimes. but yes I discuss it but some things I don't really want to do I won't do quiz shows and I won't do trivial things I don't want to dwindle into triviality we've skipped over so much and some of it still voice work like Mrs. Plithiver in Legend of the Guardians but also doing the arts in James and the Giant Peach with Joanna Lumley. That was fun. Yes, you could tell that was fun. I mean, how could it not be fun? So the criteria through which you choose the work you want to do, we'll leave out the trivial stuff in the quiz shows, but if you've got three or four decent parts, all of which have a decent call upon your time and attention, how then do you decide which one?

50:41Well, it's about the script, the people in it, and the location. I'll do substandard work if I can travel Is that why you did the Real Marigold show? For the travel Oh I did it for the travel because I didn't know who the other people were going to be Did you know who they were when you were told who they were? I wasn't told really I just sort of Did you just work it out? That's why it's quite good telly really isn't it? Because you feel like an eavesdropper Well I didn't know that Bobby George was going to become an important friend because I'd never heard of him. He's a lovely man. It's a lovely relationship that develops.

51:20He wears his heart on his sleeve. He's a great man. You can't see it because of all the tattoos, but he would if you could wear his heart on his sleeve. He's a really special man. Yeah, that comes across. And that's, again, you collecting people, isn't it? And being open to the relationship. Well, you couldn't not fall in love with Bobby. I think everybody did. Just, it was a wonderful experience, that. And I travelled, and among the people that I travelled with was Stanley Johnson because we went to St. Petersburg. Who you didn't warm to quite as much. Not at all. No. No, the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree there, I don't think, has it?

51:56Could you have done politics? Very political. I mean, again, we've glossed over the experimental theatre. Would that be with Joan Littlewood? No, I wasn't sort of functioning at that time when she was. But very much in that tradition. I did gay sweatshop. Yes, of course. But no, I should have done more experimental theatre, actually. That was a gap. I wish I'd done more with Théâtre de Complicité because they were wonderful. That was a great company. Simon McBurney, who directed me in the Beckett. Yes. That was a great experience. But that is, I mean, I mentioned that earlier. I hadn't realised it was so recent.

52:41And that's 2009, isn't it? Endgame at the Duchess Theatre. Yes, correct. So, again, something that is born of your newfound celebrity in a way. Someone has calculated you will sell West End tickets, even to something quite, I mean, Beckett can be quite impenetrable. I don't know if they thought about whether I'd sell it, because they hadn't marked Rylance. Yes. They didn't need anybody else. He's quite wonderful. You've worked with everyone. Yes, I've worked with everybody. I mean, literally. Is there anyone on your list? if you had a list, if you had a bingo sheet of the biggest names or the best names in the business, not the biggest.

53:13Is there anyone you haven't actually worked with? I didn't work with Ralph Richardson or John Gielgud, and I admired them both so much, and I would love to have worked with them. But I worked with many other great people. So if I'd met you at any other point in your life, and I'd said, let's say, what are your ambitions? Keep coming back to the ambition. What would you have said? at one point I just want to make a living, right? Yeah. I just want to earn a crust. And then I want to be at the RSC and the National and I never have been. Why not? I think I wasn't considered good enough and then when I was considered good enough I was never available.

53:58Okay. So circumstance as much as anything else. Yes, circumstance. It's a funny one that, isn't it? Yes, I'm sad. But I did work with Peter Hall several times and that was a great joy. He was a wonderful director. And I remember when I auditioned for him for Orpheus Dessen, he said, why haven't I met you before? And I thought, because of these sodding casting directors. Getting through those gates, the gatekeepers and big musicals as well. I mean, it's... I know, that's ridiculous. Yes. I mean, I can't sing. I look as if I can sing, but I can't. And it is absurd that I started with Fiddler on the Roof and I did Canterbury Tales and I did Wicked.

54:46On Broadway as well? On Broadway. What was that like? I mean, that's massive. That was thrilling. Again, you were ticking all these boxes. If the Cambridge Footlights, the young woman being bullied a bit, or a lot, at Cambridge Footlights, if you'd handed her this list now, albeit that I understand what you say about all actresses thinking, that they would have liked to do more and thinking about the path not taken. If I'd handed young Miriam a list now, this thing I've got in front of me, which has got most of your work on it but probably not all of it, what would she have said? Blimey. She wouldn't have believed you, would she?

55:20No, no, she wouldn't. It's been a rollicking ride and thrilling and I'm very grateful. And it's not over yet. No, we'll just get on to that now because we're nearly out of time. We haven't mentioned Blackadder. We haven't mentioned all the sort of TV turns and comedy. Well, I should mention the Girls of Slender Means because, believe it or not, every so often we have a reunion. Do you really? And we're having one at the end of this month. You don't do the photograph again, do you? Not the nudie bit. But Moira Armstrong is still alive. She's 92. Gosh. and Pat Hodge and Jane Cussins and Rosalind Shanks and who else?

56:09Judith Paris is still there. And I've asked Jack Shepard to join us because he was in it too. You've done quite a bit with him. You did a big stage thing with him as well, didn't you? Oh, gosh. The nasty one. That was a horror. Yes. The white devil at the Old Vic. That's dark. That was a low point in my life. Because you didn't get on with one of your other co-stars or because things were bad off stage. It was a shocking production. I mean, the thing is that Mike Lindsay Hogg, who directed it, is a darling. He's an adorable man. He hadn't got a clue what to do with the white devil. It's a difficult play.

56:47And Glenda Jackson was in charge. And, you know, she's a bit of a prima donna. She knows what she wants and she sets out to get it. and she was terrible in it. And so was I and so was everybody else. Do you know in rehearsal or do you not know? Like you said about the Dickens show, it goes silent at the end and you must have an inkling that this is pretty good or pretty special but you don't know for sure until the house erupts. Do you know when you're working on a stinker? I knew it wasn't bad. I knew it could be wonderful. But the white devil was shite. It really was. And do you know that from pretty early on?

57:26Well, I think we did. You're contractually obliged to see it through to the end, but you know it's hiding to nothing. It's a funny old business, isn't it, really? Well, it is, and it was hard, and there was wonderful people in it. Yes, clearly. Like Patrick McGee. No, on paper, it should have been a smash hit, shouldn't it? And Jack, Jonathan Price. I mean, James Villers, I adored him, but he was terrible. I mean, we were all shocking. It was a nightmare. Not many actors would say that even now, would they? I mean, would any of them? I don't think Glenda Jackson would, would she? I don't know what she thought.

58:01I know she and I, she, I called her a cow and she called me an amateur. And I think she won. Oh, dear. So if we said, what else then? I mean, what else? I mean, there's more, isn't there? Like you say, they're not done yet. I mean, do you just actually wait to see what comes through the letterbox, have a look at it, decide whether or not you want to do it? Or do you, as you did with the Dickens show, you're not going to make your own destiny anymore, are you? No, I'm going to go out around Australia talking about my life and doing bits of Dickens. I can't let him go. I won't let him go because I know that's where my best work is in those moments of Dickens.

58:50But I hope I'll get some film work that I can show something different, something light and maybe menacing. I'd like to be menacing. Yes. I don't want you to be menacing. Don't you? No, I don't. All right, then I won't. And that's it. I mean, there's this lovely sort of autumn of your career when you're a national treasure, whether you're comfortable with that description or not. National Trinket, I've been called. I think that's rather witty. National Trinket. You are the scourge of producers. You probably know this, as we alluded to earlier, because everyone I mentioned to that I was interviewing you today said, oh, be careful.

59:31I said, don't worry, it's pre-recorded. She won't, she can't, she can't get me into any trouble by... I wonder why they say that. Because you keep swearing in the most unsweary of studio environments. That's all. Yes, my language is very bad. It's been very good today. I'm disappointed, actually. I feel a bit let down Well I want to show the best of myself not the worst of myself I'm very grateful to you and you revel although you didn't need it you revel in the affection that you've inspired in generations of film goers but you didn't need it like a lot of actors do I don't know if I needed it or not but I'm bloody glad I've got it and so are we Mary Margolis thank you so much Thank you James

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