Jon Culshaw: The Impressionist Who Fooled the Prime Minister

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:10Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a podcast project conceived entirely to let me spend more time with interesting people than I would ever be allowed on the radio. Jon Culshaw, welcome. James, it's great to see you. Thank you for having me on the podcast. I imagine it's going to be my pleasure. But everybody knows who you are. But does anybody know who you are? Who I am? Well, I suppose a sort of a mild-mannered Lancastrian. I've never come across anyone having a bad word to say about you, which is a lovely thing. I mean that. That is a very lovely thing. I like to be quite unassuming and so on.

0:47Was it always so? So Ormskirk, 1968, Ormskirk in Lancashire. Seems to have been a very happy childhood. Yes, it was the 1970s, and everything had a sort of a sepia tint, didn't it? And that sense of the real world. You know, you used to sort of go out on your chopper bike and play and climb up things, climb up haystacks and go back on your chopper bike and spot butterflies. It was, yes, it was a contented period of time. Is it quite rural? I've been to Almscote, but it was a very long time ago. It is very rural, a market town, a lot of farmland. So they say it's the potato capital of Europe. I think Kings, no.

1:29Hang on, there's a town in Norfolk that lays claim to the same title. I don't want to start a civil war. That'll be a dispute. I heard that in the voice of Les Dorson, the potato capital of Europe. So you would just run wild, as it were, and come home for tea. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And it's quite nice to think back to it. you know click together modeled plastic dinosaurs things like this kept our interest is it is it because i've read this but it might be mythology rather than reality does ormskirk sit in a sort of a the nexus of several different accents so there would you pick up almost village by village what different yes vocal characteristics there were i think you would uh my own voice is is this which is just sort of a mild Lancastrian twinge.

2:19You know, sometimes if you get up to, you know, you know, Bolton, that type of thing, it'll curl up at the end like that. It goes into that sort of tune. You're Fred Dibner type of thing. Or maybe Oldham even more, even more. It goes up that way. But as Yorkshire goes to the other way, Yorkshire goes downwards like that, you know. And then, of course, you know, you get the Liverpool accent coming in, which has increased over recent years. The type of Liverpool accent you get in Ormskirk now is something a bit like that. You know, it's not like, you know, you know the echo you know right in the center of town like that where there's that irish influence and the industrial revolution that came in and brought it like that but you know the ormskirk liverpool accent is you know it's not too far from mccartney actually you know it'll be that sort of relaxed kind of thing i'm just thinking of former guests on full disclosure you've gone from julie hesman house to les dennis there quite quite effortless do you have i mean because this it's quite an early enthusiasm for you although it wouldn't have had that academic angle to it is that you would actually notice locally the voices the different voices that oh yes yes exactly all the characters there was a character called harold who worked in a delicatessen uh delicatessen shop called swore bricks and i remember he had a voice of it he was a bit like colin crompton from the wheel tapers and shunters club and he used to shout hello to my mother even when she was near hello tracer and just characterful people like that and you'd pick up on this in a way that was different from other kids you you'd be you'd be interested in it for almost technical reasons yes i think so you're fascinated by the character yes and and the sense of presence that that generates and you're fascinated by um just what makes a person unrecognizable what gives you that hook that makes them them and also how you can stretch it a little bit notice the things and the reasons why they're funny and do them all the more but from a place of benevolence because you sound much more observer than performer at the moment yes i think that's i think that's that's what you notice first you you collect your data and then you work out how you're going to present it and then the performance comes in after that when did you start can you i mean You're the youngest of three, so the amateur psychology would say that you needed to perform to get noticed.

4:35Yes, I suppose it was my brother and sister, James and Rosemary, quite a bit older than me. 11 and 15 years older than me. Rather like deputy parents in a way. Yes, of course. So I was the young one. And perhaps there was an expectation to lark about a bit and be the little mischievous scamp. and it was just yes it would just doing voices would just make people smile around the dinner table and in the classroom occasionally get you out of trouble and and you you would sit when when mum had visitors around when teresa had visitors around you'd sit in the corner oh yes observing and then as soon as they left observing i can remember my grandmother's cleaner was a wonderful character.

5:19Kitty Jump, her name was. Straight out of Les Corses. What a great, yeah. Exactly, Kitty Jump. Kitty Jump. She was married to a lapsed minister from Ghoul.

5:31And she would sort of, she'd hoover up, you know, she'd, I follow the patterns in your grandmother's carpet, you know, it's the blocks, I can follow them. It's a good carpet, it shows where you've hoovered. Yeah, love, yeah, she'd say, yeah. You know, sometimes you could eavesdrop people's phone conversations. and all they would say is yeah love yeah yeah yeah love yeah anyway bye bye love and there was a whole other conversation on the other side that you never heard does does what is it that we're describing here because it's you're attuned to something that not everybody is attuned to everybody can hear these it's not just the ability to to mimic them or to to to copy them you're attuned to something beyond the words aren't you you're attuned to something yeah and most obviously comedic but but also quite i mean it's quite human it's it's you're attuned to some sort of emotional content yes i think that's right you're attuned to people's warmth yes and what makes them recognizable and what makes their interactions with others special and notable and you do it from a place of affection really yes you do it from a place of love and fascination which has always typified your work and isn't always the case with with impressionists is it sometimes that people can feel very bruised by a portrayal.

6:47But I don't think you've ever gone down that road. No, I don't think so. Certainly not with my solo stuff. It's not really my style. I've performed in Spitting Image. That was my first job on TV back in 1994. And the scripts there were always ruthless, but with the right satiric hook. If you have that, then the ruthlessness can come in. And it's truth to power as well. So it's not punching down, is it? or it's never going to be punching down. So it's not a coincidence that we've both mentioned Les Dawson already. I think that was quite a seminal moment or he was quite a seminal performer for you.

7:23Yes, he really was. He seemed to talk about the kind of characters who lived... That you knew? Yeah. Was he from Lytham? I know he settled in Lytham ultimately. Yes, he did. He was born in Collyhurst. Right. He was born in Collyhurst in Manchester. There we go. In a hovel so decrepit the rats went round on stilts.

7:46Humour overcoming the challenges of life. But yeah, I remember watching Les Dawson in that golden age of television in the 1970s along with Mike Yarwood, of course. Dave Allen. Oh yes, exactly. But do you think that the Dawson thing was partly because he was of your world? So some of those other performers perhaps seemed otherworldly whereas Les Dawson was very much, he could easily have been doing Kitty Jump. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I remember my dad used to play bowls on a Wednesday and a Friday at this place called St Anne's Social Centre. And I can remember those Friday nights going to watch him play bowls and all of the other fellows there and their nice Friday night jumpers with a pint and encouraging each other as they played bowls.

8:31yeah good wood that good wood yeah good wood that way way way and you know this was the time when you know you collect your star wars stickers and bubble gum and things like this but dawson touched you in a way that no one else did yes i think just that just the truth to character i i share your passion for les dawson i share none of your talent so i can't i won't even dream of doing him but did you watch it as a family as well would it be all five of you would be in the room yes indeed And that was rare, especially with that gap with your siblings. A lot of the stuff they laughed at, you wouldn't have got at 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

9:07But Les Dawson's comedy was absolutely universal. It really was. It reflected life and family life and mother-in-laws. And even his mother-in-law jokes were sort of said with love. Yes, they were. And part of the joy was watching the reactions of the other members of the family, seeing them heartily rolling back laughing. That was a nice thing to be part of and a lovely energy to be surrounded by. It makes me miss my dad talking about Les Dawson. Because it was very much, they're both from Yorkshire, my parents. And that was very much that. And we lived in the Midlands. So it felt almost as if they were watching a window on their own childhood.

9:44Yes. Good northern comedians, comics came on the telly. Did you ever meet him? Almost. Almost. I would dearly love to have met Les. and it's a mystery as to how we would have got on but you just hear tales of him being so, so charming. I used to work at a radio station in Blackpool called Radio Wave and I used to do the mid-morning show there. God, don't you hate mid-morning radio shows? Well, I wouldn't have done it now. I wouldn't have got up against you, sir. I would have give up. I would have yielded there. But Les came in. He'd recently opened the station. He'd stood on a very decorated caravan near the Pleasure Beach.

10:31And he'd done this ceremony to open the radio station back in 1992. And a few weeks later, he came into the station to be interviewed by one of the heads of news, Alastair Clark. And I was in my studio, and there was the glass. And then Les just walked by. There he was, just walking by this very gentle presence with a relaxed but firm stride as he went into the next studio with a summer straw hat on and a nice cardigan. And I thought, I've got to eavesdrop here. I've got to listen to what Alistair's asking him. And he says, so how's her family life, Les? So young Charlotte, couple of months older?

11:11Yes, there she was. I left her in the kitchen, Tracy taking great care of her. There she was in the kitchen, on the worktop, like a helpless unready chicken. God bless her. I got his autograph at the Birmingham Hippodrome when he was in Panto. It was one of the kind of real starstruck moments of my childhood.

11:35So we need to rewind back to Almskirk and school, primary school. So what were you like as a pupil? Did you excel? I sort of partially paid attention. I was all right. you know if i was interested yeah i'd pay attention um i rather enjoyed history you know that meant you could get into prehistory and dinosaurs and cavemen that sort of subject i rather liked the early days of geography because uh mr foley the teacher taught us about the solar system and i loved you know they still do yeah the geography of other worlds yes was a great thing If I was interested, if it was maths or other things, you know, my mind would drift a little bit.

12:24I'd look out of the window. But I'd be thinking of my own inspirational thoughts about why the teacher was interesting or why they spoke in a certain way. Or forming your own ideas of what you might like to do in the future. So you sound like a very interesting child, but crucially you're a very interested child. Yes, I think you've always got to have that. Yes. You know, lack of curiosity is not a good thing. You've got to be full of curiosity, I think. And what was the attitude at home to academia, to education? Was it what mum and dad came for you to push on and do well? I think your dad was in the Royal Engineers.

12:59Yes. And I've read that you can't remember whether your mum did anything because she was always just mum. Yes, exactly. I know she worked in a shop called the Maypole in the wartime. And I always remember her being mum. Yeah, my dad was in the Royal Engineers. and a carpenter, a craftsman. And would they stress the importance of education on you or was it quite live and let live? They always wanted you to make sure you were making an effort and you were taking it seriously and that you were paying attention and you weren't being disruptive or anything like that. And I was probably around about 15 when I started to get an interest in radio and performing and looking to that side of career prospects.

13:42and my parents would sometimes say, oh, Jonathan, are you sure? Do you not need something to fall back on? Yes. Do you not need something to be, you know, a trade? It comes very much from a place of love. Yes, it does. It's cautionary and it's sort of like a... My attitude was I wanted something to fall on to, not back on. Okay, yeah, I like that. So they always made sure that you were aware of, you know, don't be cavalier about things, you know, just cover all bases. And had your brother and sister made life easier for you? Because they were that much older that they were grown-ups while you were still a school child.

14:19They'd gone off out into the world. Yes, they were always very encouraging. And I always used to look forward to when they came home from work because I could tell them what had happened during that day. I made this. I drew this. And it was someone to tell things about. And then a little later, my dad would come home from work. And then I could tell him. another um so yes there was all of the there was a nice sort of family movement a nice dynamic it sounds lovely what what do you think i mean can you put into words the because there's there's a desire to share there that's like the corollary of curiosity isn't it if you're curious about things and you discover things and things happen you want to share them but i've not i've never had any sense and i don't have any sense sitting down with you of of what we somewhat lazily call the show-off gene you don't ever seem to have had the show-off gene and no i don't think so which is odd given the amount of performing that you've done and continue to do yes it's there if i need it okay and i can i can flick that switch when you have to yeah um but but it's not my default setting my default setting is something else it is isn't it so you're not in that constant zone where you're because some people are some entertainers are we've had someone on recently we've had brian conley on recently who it took him about 25 minutes to to step out of the spotlight in a lovely way yes but you're built very differently and rob bryden was here not long ago and he's more on than off but you you turn it on at will and and yes are not doing that kind of yes i was never really wired that way um and it's not my default setting but you know when you have to do a show when you have to perform step out onto the ring of stage deep breath go into that mode and away you go and is the sense of satisfaction profoundly different in front of a massive audience compared to in front of your family or in front of your schoolmates for you personally do you do does it change according to the size of the audience or is it actually somehow Now, the same sense.

16:24That's very interesting. I think it's broadly similar. I thought you were going to say that. Yeah. Because I don't think it is for many people. No, I think it's broadly similar. It's a conversation. It's an interaction. It's a back and forth. Yes. And as you described that, I've been thinking of, you know, some of the audiences in my Imposter Syndrome show that I've been doing recently. And I'm conscious on the stage of moments when you're having a chat with the audience. Yeah. And the laughter will come. and I'll sort of smile along with it and just go with that rhythm. And it's just like a broader version of being sat around the dinner table, which is rather good.

17:01I like that. Well, it's radio as well, isn't it? Because it's, Terry Wogan, I think, always said that you're only speaking to one person. Only speaking to, doesn't have that one person in your mind, you're only speaking to one person, you know. And that's what you'll describe, I think that's where the question must have come from because that is what I'm picking up on is that it wouldn't be a kind of bolting on a different personality to march onto Saturday night TV or whatever it might be. So when did it start? I mean, I like the story about you actually dressing up as Les Dawson and seeing him looking back at you.

17:36That feels like a seminal moment. But also at school, when you sort of thought this has, whether you'd consciously be aware of this or not, this has tentacles that reach far beyond where i am at the moment this is this is univ this i'm tapping into something universally when did you start feeling or thinking that i think there was a few uh there was a few clues uh that probably in in the late 1970s at school you know there'd be a you know the singing competition at the end of the year and all the well-behaved kids would sing all things bright and beautiful or kumbaya, something like that. Whereas I wanted to do Elvis.

18:16Yeah. And I think the teachers were slightly, you know, slightly condemning at this. But it was a good Elvis, I imagine. Yeah, I lost the ability to do it. I had a brace fitted. Okay. And it sort of made me a bit, you know, I couldn't, but I'm going to try and get it back, I think, because that would be a good one to do. But yes, I would do Elvis and the kids in school would laugh and that there was a sense of performance and who your audience is, an audience. That's what an audience reaction feels like. And I think it would be, I later started in radio and just sprinkling the show with a few characters really helped you get through the four hours.

19:00And as a great admirer of Steve Wright and Kenny Everett, I was very inspired by that and would emulate it in whichever small way I could. And it would always be you. But, of course, sometimes the audience, the listener might not have known that. They might have thought you had actors coming in or people doing voices, as Steve Wright often did. Would people tell you you were really good, John? Would, you know, because every class possibly has someone who thinks they can do Jimmy Hill or Les Dawson or a teacher. But was it quite early doors that people would say to you, bloody hell, you're good?

19:35I think it might have been I didn't start to hear things like that in my mid to late teens a mate of mine who I did hospital radio with a chap called Pete Burgess who's a big fan of your show and this podcast so I promised I'd mention it Hi Pete You know I would do Frank Bruno and Bob Geldof and characters of the late 80s and he would often say you can do this you should think about this This isn't like a sideline. This is special sort of thing. And that was where I sort of started to take it a little bit seriously. Maybe there is something to this. OK. And then this continued through various radio stations I worked at.

20:21Viking Radio in Hull, I can remember one day I had interviewed Lenny Henry on the show. And he was doing a show at the New Theatre. and we just got into this back and forth of voices and characters and at the end of it, and I'm always very grateful to Lenny for this, he said, listen, this is good. Send a tape to spitting image. They're always looking for people. I would encourage you to do that. Send a tape to spitting. And I thought, ooh, right, okay. And then I went into the reception of the radio station after the show. It was chucking it down with rain. So I had a longer chat with Anne-Marie, the receptionist, and in her wonderful whole accent she said, I urge you today, you know, never mind talking in between Madonna records.

21:04Them voices, make that your job. Make that your job. And I think a little light bulb appeared above my head. Maybe I'll try to... So it was moments like this where people started to point it out. I was probably being too passive and just enjoying the moment. Okay. And would imposter syndrome have been that, you think? You'd have thought, this isn't for me? It probably would have been the sense whereby you think, right I'm gonna have to step up and do this right it's something to aim for yeah it's a little bit of internal inspiration that you have it's something to to strive at I think it's a very positive thing to think that you can't do something but you try anyway and then once you've learned it once you've cracked it you're empowered by that and you'll do something else in the future so if I'd met you when you were 15 and said what do you want to be when you grow up you'd have said a radio presenter I think something like that yes something like that maybe maybe an astronaut or a ghost taunter okay so a couple years later when reality had smacked you around the back of the head it would have been radio for so to which as your parents have as you've alluded to your parents would still have considered to be a little bit um fantastical or a little bit ambitious i suppose we're getting a picture of the people around you that as the years passed gave you the the belief that it could happen but why radio do you think john what what i mean hospital radio a lot of people start off there and and then i think gary davis the radio one dj gave you the best advice which is send your tape to everybody and don't be worried about rejection yes that's right that's right i remember i was on holiday in the late district in 1986 i was 18 and 86 it was a good year to be 18 that and the radio one road show had been at the glebe in bowness and in the nightclub the the aquarius you know reflections what an 80s name for a nightclub mirage his great rival and the Radio 1 Roadshow had been there and Gary Davis was in and big star yeah my goodness wow the audience that he commanded and he still does and I thought I've got to mention anyway he was so gracious he was so gracious and he said yeah make lots of demo tapes make lots of demo tapes keep sending them out don't worry about the rejection just keep doing it and keep that belief if you think it's possible than it is so i was always very grateful to him for that and you did yeah yes i did i would uh stitch little voices together little demo programs together just onto a woolworth's cassette and post them out this was how emails were done in the late 80s when jiffy back an early voice note yes exactly and i mean you've described it as your true calling in the past it's not not not a flash in the pan to quote you directly but what were you worried about what you would be if this didn't happen did you did you did you have a concept of where john colshaw would be if he didn't get on the radio or he didn't i think probably tucked away a little bit yes i thought well i'd better i'd better make this work because i sure don't know what the heck else i'm going to do yes so it wasn't a fear of obscurity or anything like that it was actually i don't know what else i can do yeah but i know i've got a hook at this i've at least got one little hold into this area is something I'm interested in.

24:14I'd loved listening to radio, the local stations, Red Rose and Radio City and Piccadilly, and just hearing how radio was made. Yes, yes. These great DJs, you know, Phil Easton, Simon Tate. Steve Penk, they've heard. Steve Penk, yeah, wonderful Steve. Just hearing how it was made. And I did have a fascination for that, and I thought, this is my first step. Let's see where it goes to next. So I'm seeing an engineer now. So in the same way that you approached accents and I can nail down exactly what I'm trying to describe, but your ability to kind of distill emotional, the conveyance of emotion through gestures and voices, because being a brilliant impressionist, even on the radio, is not just about the voice, of course.

24:59But you're now doing the same thing to radio. It's almost like you want to take it apart and put it back together again to work out how it works. Yes, exactly. That's a very perceptive description. Yes, you're trying to get to the individual components, demystify it. so you can understand it and then work out what your version of that is and try to get by and bring it to some sort of life. And your first break after the hospital was Red Rose, I think, in Preston. Yeah, that's right. Was that a tape? Did they hear you? Was the program controller in traction in A &E? I think the way it went, I can remember hearing the trailer.

25:35In the way that 80s radio voices were, the Red Rose Radio search for a DJ competition. Send in your cassette of you doing your program and win a show on bank holiday. Wow. And so I did. I did. I think it was, maybe it was just to... I didn't know that. Yeah. So it was really just a straight put your hand up. Yeah, that's it. Do we know how many entries there were that year? Oh, at least two.

26:02What was it like? Did you get a call? Did you get a phone call or a letter? I did. I got a call from a friend of mine at the station who I got to know at that time who made all the adverts, a chap called Jerry Rowlands, who used to do all the adverts. And he phoned up one day and he said, right, this search for a DJ contest, you're doing all right. You might win. So expect a call. Expect a call. Oh, heck, you know. It was a real moment. and then I got a call from Mike Henfield who had this lovely velvety northern voice like that he says right I think we'll make you the winner of this thing then so you're free on Monday do you want to come in and work out how the desk works where the buttons are yes and so that was that that was how that all came about and live so you did your you did go in on a bank holiday and do a live show have you still got it?

26:57I don't think so I've got some cassettes of that era yeah my voice was a few octaves higher okay and my my language was slightly more gormless as it is when you're 19 you know your ideas are forming aren't they but you know good on you for the uh for the um for the enthusiasm at least to try but it stuck you stuck you didn't they didn't send you home that day and say good luck no i i i stuck with it i stuck but they stuck with you crucially yeah yes i did the overnight show as well i did two till six in the morning right once set the newsroom on fire overnight but that's another tale um so yes you mean literally oh yeah not with the quality of your journalism no no no no i did i i i'd sort of discarded a cigarette in the bin i was in my own public information film anyway the fire alarm went off during the early part of hotel california thankfully that's such a long record i had time to run in put the fire out and go back for the guitar solo.

27:58And make a cup of tea. And make a cup of tea, yes. So they gave you the shift. So you must have done something pretty quickly, A, to win the competition, so you'd honed yourself on hospital radio, but as I think we've established, your real apprenticeship was listening, not talking. Yes, yes, you've got to just have that background and not just be rattling on, try to get the full picture. And I started to send tapes to other stations at that time to try and get, you know, a show in daylight hours yes yes and it's the holy grail it's the dream um it didn't always go down well i like the story about the station manager i don't know if it was the one that you've just um impersonated who who found you up one night and told you to do the weather in your own voice not bob gildoves yes that was uh yeah that was yes i remember i i thought local radio in those days was very polite you know the recipe was such a lovely thing and a nice drizzle of lemon.

28:56And I wanted to sort of subvert that a little bit and do the weather as Frank Bruno. It's going to be chucking it down. Mind how you go. Wicked. Because I just thought it made it a little bit more interesting. But I remember the controller walked in through the door like a scene from a Western movie. And he said, right, I've told you this before. Now do it straight. Do it normal. Because I was probably just too experimental. It was probably just too silly at times. Well, also, no one else had really done that, had they, at this point? No. If you weren't doing it, you wouldn't have seen yourself as a pioneer.

29:30But from their point of view, it would have been upending the apple cart completely. Yeah, yes. And so at this stage, I presume, as you make your way, Viking FM in Hull, Pennine Radio in West Yorkshire, Radio Wave in Blackpool. The dream would have been to end up on Radio 1, probably, would it, if you'd allowed yourself to dream? Yes, yes, I think it was. I would always listen to what Radio 1 were doing before I did my own show just to get the sense of this national grandeur. And maybe you can carry a bit of that into your own show as well. And then, as I see it then, there's a fork in the road that occurs that day that Lenny Henry's in the studio and Anne-Marie is in reception and you begin to actually, because you can't be both, I don't think, can you?

30:13Can you be the professional mimic and the radio presenter? There's a sense of a moment looming where you're going to have to put all your eggs in one basket. Yeah, you have to follow which road you're going to stick to. Yes. Which is going to be the main sort of arterial aim, if you like. And that is where Steve Wright comes into the story, I think. Yes, indeed it was. Another competition. Yes, that's right. Do you play the lottery? It's a good thought. It's a very good thought. So we're in 1993 now. Yes, that's right. In the summer of 1993, and Steve Wright had a talent competition, Talent 93.

30:52Send in your cassette with whatever it is you do, your act, your turn, your performance. And if you win, you'll get a thousand pounds worth of equipment and an interview on Radio 1 with Steve Wright. So I did. I sent a tape, another cassette with all the voices of 1993. Who would that have been? I think, you know, Frank Bruno would definitely. Yes, probably Chris Eubank, I believe. he would have yes he would have yes I think he would most certainly have been there with that very precise characterisation Terry Christian from the word you know yeah you alright ok yeah we got like Hufty and Mark Lamar on the show great smashing right here's Jabber Ranks ok and yes it struck a chord with them and I won that competition is that another phone call yes it was it was a live one as well it was live oh really they did it on air yeah they really did hello Is that John?

31:47Yeah, exactly that. Exactly that. And to hear Steve Wright's voice. So iconic. Wow. Gosh, he could. What an atmosphere he created with his shows. Just unique. Well, I mean, he had heroes, didn't he, in the United States. And Kenny Everett shared similar icons. But when you witnessed it, it was just extraordinary. Really, really was. The sense of something big going on. Every day. Every day. Every day. That's the magic. Every day. The big show. Yeah. The big show. So what did he say? I miss him. I miss him. Yeah, well, I didn't know him well, but goodness me, I was looking forward to getting to know him better.