Natalie Cassidy: I grew up on EastEnders before I knew what fame was

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:12Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a podcast project conceived entirely to let me spend more time with interesting people than I would ever get on the radio. Natalie Cassidy, welcome. Why have you got me on then? Well, don't be ridiculous. You must be one of the most recognised people of your age in the country. i reckon we're probably right actually it's a strange thing isn't it it is a very strange thing we will begin at the beginning which was in islington in in north london in 1983 let me be the millionth interviewer to observe that you came along after the family was pretty well established both of your brothers are quite a lot older than you that's right yeah david he's 60 and tony's 57 so mum and dad had their two boys 15 and 18 and mum decided that she felt quite alone I think and wanted someone else to care for and then I came along.

1:05Dad was a news agent I think when you were born so he had a little shop in Islington. Yeah that's right, St John Street. It's every child's dream that isn't it? It was great. Did you just go in and help yourself? I did but also on a Saturday morning I used to get up at 4am with him and go down to the shop and help him. I used to really really enjoy it actually. And get the papers? Papers, early deliveries all the magazines back then and what did mom do mom was a housewife and a carer to my nan she looked after everyone yeah she did massively um that strikes me as a sort of i mean a central community family then everyone in the area would know who you were would know who your dad was i mean you'd have everyone passing through the shop um yeah the shop wasn't on our doorstep however okay so it wasn't kind of shopping upstairs we lived so to speak um we were quite private people until i landed the job i landed what does that mean what do you mean just my mum and dad were people they kept themselves to themselves yeah they did yeah so you were you fell quite far from the tree then i did when did this side of your when did this side of your personality first manifest itself Natalie?

2:17I think it was when I was eight and I a friend of mine used to go to Anna Sher theatre and my mum as I said cared for my nanny Liz who lived with us right from when I was born from as long as I can remember we had nanny there so mum didn't do a lot we couldn't go out we never went on holiday never did anything but in a nice way it was fine yeah this opportunity arose to sort of walk up to barnsbury road and pay two quid chuck it in a tin and go to a drama class and i thought you know i'd quite like to do that i always liked playing the fool acting up a little bit at home making people laugh making people laugh especially in hospitals believe it or not again nan's in hospitals my some of my evenings were Wednesday night we're going up the hospital now to visit Nan and I'd sit and entertain the nurses or the other patients and nurses and give them a song or a few lines of Max Miller from Dad's vinyl records so I went to Anna's and a world opened up for me Let's not run ahead because I'm interested in whether or not Mum and Dad encouraged this, they quite liked it because they weren't telling you to wind your neck in or to stop being a show-off or to stop drawing attention to yourself.

3:34They quite liked to see you. I think they did, and I think they were very, very proud that they had this little girl, and I was extremely spoiled, if honest, James. Well, you had three dads, effectively. Yeah, that's true. I think you've said, haven't you? So spoiled rotten by your brothers. Mm-hmm. Mum would dress you up like a little China doll. Absolutely. So you probably just did think that the world was full of people who would bend to your will. Sort of worked out in the end.

4:01What about school? Before you got to Anna Sherz, what were you like at primary school and stuff like that? I've always enjoyed learning. Have you? I enjoyed school. As soon as I got the part in EastEnders... So you were 10 when you got there? So you were 8 when you went to Anna Sherz? Yeah. I'm trying to think of all the people who've been on Full Disclosure that had a stint at Anna Sherz. Cathy Burke. There's quite a few. There is quite a few. Cathy Field, Daniels, Martin Kemp, Gary Kemp. Lots and lots of people from EastEnders. Of course. Pauline Quirk, Linda Robson. It was an amazing place for working class people.

4:34And that's a crucial point about it, isn't it? It wasn't a kind of fancy pants, stage school-y. No, it wasn't. She was teaching something quite raw, I think. She was the best teacher that I've ever had, and I believe I'll never have somebody like her in my life. She was an Irish Jew who cared deeply about equality. we learnt so much within that hour and a half I walked into a room and suddenly poetry, art, language, words the influence of kindness within 90 minutes I just couldn't believe what I was learning From day one? From day one So did you feel like, I don't know, not coming home because you had a very happy home life No, but my world opened up Did it?

5:24And the friend that you went with? How did they respond to it? Yeah, she enjoyed it, but there was something that was deep-rooted in me. I don't know what it was. Again, I think it is that learning, being a bit of an autodidact, that I was a sponge, and I've taken all that with me. I love my poetry. I love my art. I love... You know what I mean? Of course I know. I'm not amazing at it, but I enjoy it. And again, there's no... So I'm interested in this, because a lot of people that arrived at Anna Sherz would have been stepping into a world that they didn't know existed previously. whereas you kind of, you embraced it immediately but you, I don't know.

6:02But I never went there to become someone on the telly. Did you not? No. But you knew that other people who'd been there had become people on the telly. Yeah, but that was not the point. The point was I can get out of the house for an hour and a half because mum can't take me anywhere. And you could have fun and you'd be safe and you'd be looked after and the rest is gravy. The rest is just a bonus. That's just what happened. So there's a difference between enjoying making people laugh and being a show-off. Yes. Were you a show-off? No, I don't think so, because to me a show-off is quite annoying.

6:33That's what I wonder. Yeah, and I don't think I am an annoying person. I don't think I ever have been, but I think I enjoy entertaining people and I think I enjoy making people smile. So when did things begin to crystallise? Because that's only about an 18-month window. We'll talk later about how incredibly young you were to turn up in such an enormous window. but when did you start thinking about acting as something a little bit more sophisticated than just doing Max Miller routines if that's even the right word to use. I didn't, I didn't, it just happened. There was no thought process behind it I'm afraid.

7:08And you were good at it though? I think there was something there, i.e. I don't think I would have got this audition. Because she treated everyone more or less the same. Absolutely. First thing I learnt when I walked in there as she stood in the centre of the theatre and she said, for any newcomers tonight, we do not use the words beginning with S and F. And I thought, fair enough, there's no swearing here. OK. But fame and star, she would not tolerate. Really? Would not tolerate. Because some people will go off and do a job and then come back and they'd be treated exactly the same. Absolutely.

7:44I like this. I'm quite jealous, actually. It must have been an incredible thing to do at that age. It was very grounding. in and did you start i mean did you develop ambition did you start thinking i want to go up for auditions not in a kind of pushy way there used to be a wall james go on with bits of paper up um little little post-it notes so to speak and it would have people's auditions on there right so i remember zoe ashton and um there's a girl called nancy who got loads of auditions but she was brilliant and um we'd have a little look and thomas orange would be up there and i think oh I wonder if I'll ever have a post-it note.

8:19That's really where it started, thinking, I wonder if I'll ever, or a casting card, because it would say if people's jobs were out on telly or if people were in the theatre. And that was the first sort of time I thought, God, I'd love to have a post-it note. How did it work? How did they decide who got a post-it note? Would she decide? Because it was like an agency as well as a school. It was, but producers, casting directors would come into Anna's on a Friday evening, sit at the back and watch classes. Every week, pretty much? Pretty much. There'd be someone in. And then a little nod would be given.

8:51Nod. And someone would be called in for a... And then you'd have an audition, yeah. So go on then. What happened? So this one week, it was the casting director of EastEnders and they were sat at the back, I think. Tony McHale, the creator of the family of the Jacksons, he was sat at the back. And yeah, they got me up and they said, oh, you quite think this one's a bit of a character. Say your name and what colour you like. and I went, my name's Natalie Cassidy and my favourite colour's red because I support Arsenal and you know, blah, blah, blah and then a couple of days later mum got a call to say we'd like to see Natalie up at Elstree and I went up to Elstree again, not really knowing what was going on I knew it was an audition for EastEnders but on that night Top of the Pops was filmed as you know next door and there was a queue a cue that I've never seen since maybe that is because I was little and it seemed much bigger but take that one performing Never Forget that Thursday evening and I remember driving in and being let into this place where everyone was standing outside thinking wow this is a bit special and did the audition and got to sneak in and watch Never Forget being rehearsed so for me I went home and just thought I've had the best day of my life so I like this so it's not a stagey family there was no history in the family of showbiz or anything like that the only thing I would say um I think my granddad who I didn't meet um he was a tic-tac man and apparently extremely entertaining bit of an entertainer so I think that's the only sort of link from what I know so no pushiness from your parents no trying to live out their dreams through you no pressure on you to do this or to do that probably slightly I mean but lovingly bemused absolutely by what you were becoming and what absolutely and quite naive I think okay what do you mean by that I'm not sure mum would have let me go into it if she would have known she was going to lose me so young well um I I struggle with guilt and I am getting much better at it coming I'm coming up to 43 now, James.

11:04No. But the guilt I feel because I lost mum at 19. Oh, I'm sorry. There's a lot of guilt around growing up a bit too quickly and wanting to be out all the time and living my life and losing her so quick. Because you come back. You come back to your mum and dad. And it was out of the blue as well, I think. It was, yeah. So you don't have that time to process things. No, no. But every kid did that. I know, absolutely. My brothers say, you know, we've got the chance to come back. Yeah. Not your fault. You were out. But it's a struggle, you know. Of course it is. Of course it is. But by naive, you mean that none of you, I mean, you couldn't have been expected to, and nor could they really, to appreciate, A, how big it would be, but crucially, how long it would go on for as well.

11:48Absolutely. Because that's often the point, isn't it? There's no guarantee of longevity. No, and it's an interesting one because people talk to me and they say, oh, you know, you're so lucky. and actually I have learned to say luck is absolutely the beginning and played its part of being in the right place at the right time but you don't get to stay in a job for over 30 years without professionalism, kindness and actually a bit of talent and I feel quite comfortable saying that now Good for you It's the same with what they call Nepo babies They might get through the door You might get through the door because of who your parents are but that's luck, that bit is luck but you don't stay in that world unless you can actually do what you I've been paid to do.

12:3130 years. It's a crazy business. Yeah, it is. Is it true that mum and dad didn't really know how big EastEnders was because you were more of a Corrie family? We were all Corrie family, yeah. Yeah, mum and dad didn't like EastEnders. Because there's no escapism for people in Islington watching Albert Square. Yeah, that's right. Whereas Corrie, which was, I mean, I suppose it was a little bit funnier as well. It was. It was lighter. Yeah. The days of Jack and Vera and all of that sort of stuff. It was fabulous. So, what, the phone rings or does Anna tell you? No, the phone rang mum. I was at school, I went to school in Hanover Hanover school, Hanover street and the phone rang, mum knew I think she told my brothers before she told me and picked me up from school acting a bit strange and went home and then she told me there was a big bunch of flowers waiting for me And what did you feel?

13:17Can you remember? No So long ago and so huge So long ago Hard to process I just got on with it, like I do everything really And then how big a slice did it immediately start taking out of your life? Because you're out of school for a lot of the time. Not too much, to be honest, because of the legal requirements. It was 40 days a year. Okay. So they'd split those up into kind of mornings, afternoon slices. It didn't interfere too much. I was still at primary school enjoying my primary years. And did you love it? Did you love being in it? Did you love acting? Or was it all just a bit of a blur? You did genuinely love it from the get-go.

13:54I loved it. Why? I loved asking questions. I loved the technical side of it. I loved the cameras. I loved asking questions to the director. Lindsay Coulson, who played my mum, often recalls a story and we laugh. And she laughs. Tears come into her eyes. Because she said, I'll never forget. Ten and a half. You on set. And we'd all be there. And we'd go, right, okay, we've done a line run. Are we all ready? And you'd go, no, actually, excuse me. I've got a question. I'm not quite sure I'd like to do that. and she said you were so inquisitive and so brave she said it was so sweet it's lovely it's amazing combination of confidence and curiosity yeah which is I mean they're powerful things for an actor to her when when did you begin to understand when did you begin to understand what a big deal it was I think when I turned 13 you then go up to 80 days a year so then secondary school life you know I knew that I wanted to be more at school at more at work than I was at school oh really um people were jealous of me having days off I just I just loved going to work I didn't really want to be at school anymore I got on with it and you were famous that's the f word yeah I was not getting away from it I was obviously not something that you were pursuing or something that you would be rubbing in people's faces but it was just a fact of life for you from an incredibly young age.

15:21Yeah. I can't remember not being recognised, which is a weird thing. That is a weird thing. But then it's all I've known, James. No, of course it is. This is one of the things that I find so fascinating because it's coupled with that thing I just touched on about you not actually having gone looking for it. No. It just became your life. It's who you are, who you always will be. And people also... So I'll tell you who else has been sitting in that chair. It's Daniel Radcliffe. Yes. And when I was talking to him, it occurred to me that everybody else gauges their age by you. Everybody else feels their own passage of time by watching you on a screen or an actor like you and him on a screen because you kind of grow up in parallel.

16:02It's really interesting, the audience that I have and people that talk to me when you're shopping in a supermarket or walking along. Sonia's a very kind character. Yes. She's a giver. She's a carer. She works for the NHS. I've been very, very lucky. I've never had rubbish. But I do have people really think they know you. You know, they come up, they want to hug you, they want to touch you. Sonia, you know, they really want to... They see her kindness. And you're all right with that? Very much so. It's part of my job. Always have been? Yeah. From a very early age? Very much so. I've always seen it as part of my job.

16:38When you have the children with you, maybe you're eating, and the children may be uncomfortable with it, that becomes a little bit of an issue but I have to explain to them mummy's done this for a very long time and mummy has to be nice to people and have a chat with them everyone's like that no I know it's quite the opposite absolutely I find it bamboozling do you? I think I do as well but it's a negotiation as well when you're with your family when your children are with you it is or if people are taking pictures of you without asking I don't like that or videoing you there's lines but that didn't exist when you were younger no did it?

17:12that weird thing of having a camera pointed at you wherever you go was not not really a thing no back then and do the kids get it the children get it they do joanie's nine nearly 10 in august she hates it does she yeah she's a bit of a character you'd quite like her but she's um doesn't mince her words and she really you know she'll roll her eyes at someone she'll say they've stopped you and i said please don't be rude so well she doesn't want to share you no she doesn't like it no and she thinks it's weird it's of why strangers talking to you the other thing because I think the first person I ever heard talk about this was Liz Dawn who played Vera Duckworth and people really do fail to understand where Natalie ends and Sonia begins do you blame them?

17:56I know but four times a week you're in their living room they see you more than their own family members yeah I know they do but they genuinely think that's you and you've been through this thing that's a bit strange Yeah. People loved soap. They used to love it.

18:15Did they look after you? I mean, because you were incredibly well adjusted, if you don't mind me saying so. There's no guarantee that you would be. But that shines out from every interview I've ever seen you give and everything I've read in preparation for talking to you today. How much of that was luck? How much of it was mum and dad? And how much of it was the BBC? I think a bit of everything. More than anything, it's family. Is it? Definitely. Mum, dad, brothers, sister-in-laws, nieces, nephews, you know, we're a very, very tight-knit family. I'm very, very lucky at how close we are and how grand did they keep me.

18:52The conversations we have. Yeah, I just don't see myself as any different. My brother's a builder. The other one has worked for Barclays for a very long time. Both very successful in their own right. I'm no more successful than them. So no as and graces? No. I get embarrassed by people that are divas, people that have an ego. I don't understand it. In fact, I've got no tolerance for it at all. That's probably the most strident that you've been, or at least the sort of strongest negative opinion that you've expressed, is that these people really, really wind you up. You must have worked with a few.

19:25I wouldn't dream of asking you to name names. Yes, yes, absolutely. But there'll be people who've waltzed onto the set and behaved as if they're the big I am. Or in other shows you do. quizzes or this and that you meet people that you might not come across before and you think oh good lord and they're often the people who who haven't actually smashed it no the people that feel they've got something to prove that they're not proving through the work um never never remember not being recognized and so matter of fact it's it's one of those strange things about celebrity that you either live it and get it completely or you don't get it at all there's no middle ground is it ever lonely that is it ever lonely to to have that emotional space that nobody except people who've had comparably ridiculous childhoods can actually grasp or understand in which i don't know them so i can't share that conversation with them one or two from yeah from work but otherwise nobody that's even more lonely because yeah it's a great question I suppose it can be lonely the recognising thing that you just get on with it and do it but again I'm not an over thinker I'm a bit of a doer and I think if you really sat down and thought about all of it you could go mad so when did the autodidact thing start kicking in because you've already decided you prefer work to school yes however you clearly have a rich inner life and you and you want culture in your world and you want to be absorbing things hard to do if you're not in formal education or at least you're not as engaged with your formal education as you would have been if you hadn't got the job in EastEnders when did you start letting that side of you flourish I suppose um being at work surrounded by you know it's a very rare job to have where you are surrounded by adults from a very young age and going back to the 90s, mid 90s, late 90s when I was there, there wasn't as much red tape.

21:31I'm not saying it's wrong. I think it's absolutely fantastic now that there is more red tape with children, chaperones, more tutoring. But it wasn't like that back in my day. I was very, very fortunate. I had a brilliant time. And I spent a lot of time with the likes of June Brown, Wendy Richard, Barbara Windsor, Pam St Clement, all these wonderful matriarchal women. And I was sat there at 13, 14, listening to them. where they'd been, what they'd done with their lives. And I think that's what started my curiosity for learning. Quite an old soul. Yeah. Did you go on holiday with June Brown at one point when you were about 18?

22:07Yeah, I was about 18. She was about 75. Where did you go? Malta. What did you do? We sat in a jacuzzi. Did you? And had a glass of wine. Naked, I think, James. But we were good pals. And age has never been an issue to me, I think, because of, again, my mum and dad were 44 and 46 when they had me. My brothers were older. Then I went to work with all of these adults. So I think it's hard not to be an old soul in that situation. Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. I'm thinking about those four who all had extraordinary careers before they arrived on EastEnders. As you got older, were you conscious of that?

22:42Were you conscious of the fact that you were growing up in one job, in one role? Only very recently have I thought about all of those things. Right in my book, I've thought about those things. and one of the reasons I left last year, I know we're not there yet, but you go, oh, do I want to just remain here and is this going to be it? Yeah. As much as I'm grateful for it, always. No, I get that. You go, is this all I'm going to do? I love it, but going backwards and forwards here, let's be brave and let's do something else. So what are the milestones then? The step up to 80 hours, to 80 days a year.

23:18Yeah, that was a milestone. Also, we haven't talked about how hard the Jackson family landed. I mean, that was big. I mean, everyone must have been delighted and people are high-fiving actually or metaphorically. So you're part of something, even within EastEnders, you're part of something quite big within something quite big. But I don't think because of my age, none of that landed. It did not register to me. I'd just pop along in a car, stand on the lot with a puffer coat on. Someone would give me a trumpet and I'd play it badly. I love the trumpet. And so The money must have made a difference to your life, though, did it?

23:54Or did mum and dad sort of...? At that sort of age, you're getting 30, 40 quid an episode. A lot more than most 10-year-olds, however. But it wasn't bundles and bundles of money. It all went away. Mum and dad were very loving, kind people. They weren't fantastic with money. They liked to spend. They were spenders. Oh, really? and I'm a spender unfortunately but yeah I'm learning to be more sensible what about ownership we've talked about people who think that they own a little bit of you and you never knowing anything different from that and this I'm intrigued by this idea of what's the word that I'm looking for it's not an absence of privacy is it an absence of privacy because you talked about right the first thing you said when we sat down was that mum and dad were quite private people and that's never been an option for you and something here between never having known anything different and knowing that what you have and what you have had is extraordinary but you can't compare it to what you would have had otherwise because you never, you weren't even I wasn't able to.

25:09No, you could never have, what are you going to compare it to? Because you can't remember what life was like before. No, that's right. So from a psychologist point of view, you're not actually that interesting.

25:20I'm no psychologist, but I'd have thought that the really interesting bit would be the path not taken or, you know, imagine you'd been 16 and you'd had this life and then suddenly it had all been turned upside down. But you don't. You're just that you have always been who you are today. Well, thanks for making me seem really bloody boring. No, I don't think you're boring. I didn't say that. I mean, it's like... No, it's just black and white. It's just simple. It's just who it is. It's what it is. It's how it's been. And that's the way it is. I love that. I've seen a lot of people over the years, you know, who have been to drama schools and what have you, and they're really desperate for it.

25:57Yeah. And then they come in and they get it at 17, 18, 19. Yeah. And you can see that change. And sometimes you can see that desperation. And I think I've been really lucky to fall into it when I did. Yes, I think you're right. And in some ways, it sounded like a masterclass in serendipity. Like everything happened at exactly the right time. So let's talk about some of the negatives. It must have been hard by the time you're 13, 14 to trust friends. It must have been hard to tell the difference between someone who wanted to be friends with the famous girl and somebody who just wanted to be friends with Natalie.

26:32I wasn't very good at that. Were you not? No. I'm sorry to hear that. No, I wasn't. Well, I say I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm also glad we're going to get a bit of gristle now in your life story. No, I think there were many friends over the years that have taken advantage of me that are no longer friends. again, like I say, I like to treat people. And again, it wasn't showing off. No. I just really like giving people things and watching them be happy. Yeah. But sometimes you can do that to the wrong people. Yes, of course you can. So that's a bit of a shame, but again, you live, you learn, you look back on these things.

27:04And they are the swings and roundabouts of this mad life that you're leading. Yeah. And that some of the positives you get that no one else is going to get are balanced out in part by some of the negatives that nobody's going to experience. Very much so. What about, do people ever tell stories on you? Do people ever sell stories about you? Oh yeah, I've had stories sold before now. Some lies, some not. I've had lots and lots of people write negative things in the papers about me when print was at an all-time high. How ugly I was, how fat I was. And you're talking about a 14, 15-year-old girl. And grown-ups would be writing that stuff.

27:43And that must affect you a bit. Again, I know you'd like me to say it has. No, I wouldn't. I've got elephant skin. I wouldn't. I've got elephant skin. Genuinely. Yeah, very much so. Now I have daughters. Yeah. When I look back at that, it makes me very angry. Because you are looking after little you. Yes. And feeling for her. And thinking, are you going to be really sensitive? What if an adult was writing those things about you? What would I do? How would I feel? Yeah. so I worry about what mum and dad went through then. And family, more than myself. Did they talk to you about it at the time? So you dealt with it on your own?

28:24Yeah, and sometimes I didn't really know what was going on. It was usually one of my friends, in inverted commas, that would say, have a look at this. And I think, why are you showing me that? I don't need to see that, really. That's a shame. I could have got away with that and skipped that. Yeah, my life has not been in any way enhanced by you bringing this to my attention. Absolutely. And then, of course, again, as a benefit, I suppose, it was before social media became the cesspit that it is now. Yes. Did the Beebe look after you on that kind of side of things? Because there's no preparation for this.

28:56You're either in it or you don't know anything about it. We had a great press team at the time. I'm just trying to remember them. I was a showbiz journalist during this era, but I am 110 % certain that I never... Didn't write anything bad about me, did you, Mr O 'Brien? I categorically did not write. Because, I mean, my tummy turns over a little bit The thought of people who would have been, so I'm 10 years older than you, writing, you know, about someone who was still a child. Lazy, isn't it? It's really lazy. It's lazy and it's nasty. Yeah, agreed. But they, so the press office would look after you, they wouldn't let.