Rutger Bregman: What are we actually doing with our lives?

32:19Well, we probably should mention at this point that the subtext of the latest book, Moral Ambition, which is out in paperback this week, is how to find your purpose. And that's why you described it earlier as a self-help book where do you derive your confidence that people want this kind of help oh i don't think everyone wants it oh i know but enough to sell books enough to build your school enough to yeah yeah but where does that come from i think there are quite a few people walking around with a hole in their soul yeah um with this realization that indeed they have one life on this planet and they drag themselves to the office every day they're sitting in their cubicle wondering, is this it?

33:02And the answer is no, there is more. And the other path, I would be the last one to say that it is an easy path, but we found it incredible to bring these people together. So we now have 22 ,000 members from more than 140 countries coming together in our so-called moral ambition circles, groups of six to eight people. It's all for free. People can just come together and ask these questions. and yeah that's been incredible to see we've we also have so-called more ambition fellowships and we get thousands of applications of people who are ready to quit their job and want to jump ship so it's the antidote to what's the point isn't it i mean it's the antidote to i've got this feeling but what's the point like what difference can i make i suppose most obviously in in environmental matters yeah yeah there's a bloody great oil rig over yeah yeah yeah so i'm a guy who comes from the political left so i've attended so many debates in amsterdam or elsewhere where we would talk about the systemic issues you know whether it's big oil or big tobacco or capitalism or whatever and so often the evening would end and it's like okay we do we have no solution but it's good that we talked about it and i was at some point i was like no it's like it's not good that Like nothing has changed.

34:23Awareness is completely overrated. And at some point, you know, all this talk about systemic change can also become an excuse to do something yourself, right? I call that the left-wing excuse. There's also a right-wing excuse. You know, all those people who say, like, you know, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and you can do anything just if you put your mind to it. People born on third base who think they've scored a triple. Yeah, yeah. off in the way with those. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But yeah, I became really fed up with that attitude. If I look at how systemic change happens in history, again and again, it does start with small groups of people who recognize their agency.

35:05In the 1780s, you could put, you know, all the abolitionists in Britain, probably in this room. I mean, it would be maybe a little bit crowded. It's a very small room. Personal hygiene wasn't great. I think it would be physically possible to put them all here um and they launched the greatest movement for human rights that this world has ever seen it was the first time in all of human history that hundreds of thousands of people started caring about the rights of others and and what what greater purpose is there than the advancement of the species yeah ultimately yeah um yeah i i mean we're jumping around a lot as i knew we would but i think i think people would be able to follow various threads and there's a couple of things that we should talk about but before um the end of this interview but i i want to rewind again to your childhood if i can just as a as an attempt to understand what made you the person that people are now learning more about or learning about for the first time and you mentioned computer games and fantasy books when when when did you feel and i'm going to use pompous language for which i'll apologize but but when did you feel the the the call of destiny, let's say.

36:15Hmm. I think that was actually only a few years ago after I had published Humankind. That book had done really well. So this is the midlife crisis when you got cross with people who were reading your book on beaches in Bali. And I had a few people in my life who were very honest with me. Right. Who said like, look, this is great what you've achieved, but you've climbed, let's call it the first ladder of success. But up until now, it was standing against the wrong wall. Now you can use your platform to do something way more impactful. And that just had a big impact on me. I think before that, you know, when I was 23, 24, I just wanted to become an author.

36:58That was my dream. I wanted to live in the world of ideas and to be able to write words and make money, that seemed like pure magic to me. And it still does. I still consider it an extraordinary privilege. I mean, I'm not a plumber. I don't make anything useful with my hands. So that that is possible is extraordinary. And that was basically my mission. And you were quite precocious. You moved very quickly through the sort of journalistic world. Yeah, yeah. Well, I didn't abide by the rules. Sure. Initially, the plan was to do a PhD. PhD, it's just that I was at Utrecht University in the Netherlands and I looked at a list of 20 PhDs that had been published, dissertations that had been published in the last few years or in the few years before that.

37:47And I found all of them so boring. I mean, they were about such specialist, seemingly insignificant things. And I was like, I don't want to spend four years doing any of that. So just boring or pointless as well. Were there stirrings there of this being all talk and no action? Well, I'm hopefully a little bit less arrogant than I was back then. Now I recognize that a lot of my books, they rely on the works of incredible specialists. What could be a sentence in my book is like four years of work for someone else. So I should recognize that. But at the same time, I was so impatient. I wanted to talk about and write about the big questions of history.

38:27Why are we here? Why have we conquered the globe? I've always tried to use history as my form of theology. Just let me stop you there because when I talked about destiny, that was also what I meant. Because when did the video game playing fantasy fiction reading teenager start thinking those thoughts? When did your private universe start expanding to the point where you wanted to become a writer? So we've missed those stages. Yeah. So my very first essay was when I was 16. I was, I remember it very well. I had like a Pentium 4 computer and I'd never written anything before. I still have it on my computer.

39:13It's very funny to read. And I had come to a conclusion that I thought was a massive, massive philosophical breakthrough. I had come to the conclusion that free will cannot possibly exist. I just thought about it logically. We humans, we are atoms. We are molecules. We are the products of causes like our genes. We didn't choose our parents. We didn't choose our passport, our environment. The whole notion of me choosing this or that makes no sense whatsoever. And it seemed so obvious to me. And the implications seemed enormous. The religious implications like heaven and hell, God punishing us for what he has made.

39:54It made no sense to me at all. But also the way our economy works. Like, why do we reward some people for being really brilliant? They didn't choose to be brilliant. We say, oh, they had such willpower. They didn't choose to have such willpower, right? The whole thing. And then I realized that actually this has been argued many times before, you know, by both philosophers and neurologists and brain scientists. and I was like why are all these people such bloody cowards that they don't you know take the conclusions to it to its logical end point right you have people like I don't know at the time Sam Harris writing about free will and people like what's his name Robert Sapolsky who does take it a bit further but I was like come on that the societal implications of this are massive so for weeks and months I walked around in a daze and I was like everything should change and And that was, I think, the beginning of that journey where I thought, what happens if we actually take our ideas seriously?

41:00Right. What if we act upon them? But that didn't come completely out of the blue. There must have been. Oh, yeah. That was all part of a religious struggle, obviously. Oh, you say obviously. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Sorry. For me, it's so obvious. You grow up in a religious family. I was always really proud to be the son of the preacher. sitting in one of the front rows, looking at my friends whose dads worked in offices. And I was like, my dad is a preacher. He speaks truth every Sunday. And your dads have to listen to him. So I was always proud. And I really tried to become a Christian. It's just that when I was 16 and 17, I had this desire to convince others of the truth of Christianity.

41:45So I was like, I got to prepare myself for these debates. So I started reading everything I could about atheism, about intelligent design, about agnosticism. I read Bertrand Russell, Christopher Hitchens. I read everything I could find about the theory of evolution. And I also made a promise to myself that I wanted to be intellectually honest because I was surrounded by kids in church who, to me, to be blunt about it many of them seemed cowards many of them seemed to shy away from the difficult questions because they were worried it seemed to me at least that the answer might be yeah god does not exist you do not have a soul and there is no purpose to the universe it's just us here on a lonely planet a beautiful planet but a lonely planet in a black cosmos um and um yeah i think I was around 18 years old when I took a shower one day.

42:47Those are the moments when you can think, right? And I realized I didn't believe anymore. And for me, that was not some happy moment. It was not like, oh, finally got rid of that. But it was really a sense of falling out of a story. And a reluctance. If I would be my own therapist, then the rest of my career is basically about struggling with that fact. And trying to replace God. Yeah. If I were to be a therapist. Not necessarily God, but at least faith, spirituality. Because life has to be about more than, you know, I don't know, just the standard stuff. Why? Why does it have to be? I could give you the scientific answer I would argue that it's probably part of human nature that we want to be part of something bigger I think there's a God-shaped hole in pretty much each and every one of us but my ultimate answer right now would be agnostic I think reality is bewildering I've really lost the youthful certainty of my atheism, I've also lost that.

44:01When I was 21, 22, I was super certain it all doesn't exist. Now I'm absolutely bewildered by reality. And I think what we can do is to make the best of it and to build upon the traditions that have been handed to us by our ancestors. Traditional Christianity, it doesn't work for me anymore. I can't go back to church. Sure. But I am, in many ways, you know, you can take the boy out of the church. Yes, of course. Can you take the church out of the boy? And it provides comfort and succor. And, you know, I know you found academia too cloistered, but cloisters have a purpose, don't they? Oh, yeah.

44:46I mean, a meditative purpose sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Back to Clarkson and the need to have that in a life. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't have to be God-shaped. And here's James, the form of immortality that I've come to believe in. Whatever we know about the world, we know that consciousness is real and we know that time is real. We know that this conversation in whatever way or form, it happened. So no one can undo that after this conversation is done and gone. And I think when I read Thomas Clarkson, I know he was a collection of molecules and atoms and that, you know, he's gone. It's two centuries ago.

45:28But he's been one of the most influential people in my life, you know, in the past five years. So he still speaks to me. And his life is a monument in time. They can never take that away from him. Now, he was obviously a devout Christian, so he thinks he's probably chilling out in heaven somewhere. but like this is my form of immortality to to try and turn our own lives into eternal pieces of art that maybe will not be admired because we will be forgotten i mean probably our you know uh our great great great grandchildren won't even know our names sure but the footprint will be there yeah even if they don't know whose foot it was that made it and the impressions that are made will will sustain yeah and that's why as i mentioned earlier the the the role that stories about people play in in the book are so absolutely crucial because they're simultaneously inspirational and illustrative yeah this also goes back to the question about ego by the way so clarkson initially was driven by vanity in the end he was buried in an unmarked grave and had become a very humble man um so maybe that is also the arc of life that i that i like and that we should aspire to you know at the end of the of our life we the metaphor that i always liked is dying is a little bit like a small stream of water flowing into the bigger river right the bigger river of consciousness um yeah that's a metaphor that i always liked so at those moments we can it's like the double the double thought like on the one hand at some point in your life you really have to believe that you are significant that you can make a difference but there are also points when it's okay to think, you know what, I am, you know, I am much less important than I like to think I am.

47:17Let's have a little look then at some of the moments of importance that were thrust upon you rather than necessarily thought and which will, you know, explain why you enjoy the audience and the renown that you enjoy today. We'll begin, I suppose, with the Davos thing, which must have felt a little bit like waking up in a parallel universe. Because, I mean, for many people, it would have been the first time they became aware of what you looked like. They may have read some of your stuff before, but not many, compared to how many would have seen that clip of you railing against the billionaires who'd arrived in the private jets.

47:52But you'd done that before. This wasn't a new territory for you. It was just a new platform. It was just a new audience. How shocked were you when you saw that sort of the graph of reaction going almost vertical? Yeah, well, I thought it would get some response, but the size of it, I had not anticipated that. But it just showed how angry and rightfully so, so many people are at the extraordinary hypocrisy of these. Well, I mean, that's the shallow form of liberalism that we talked about. It's like Bono liberalism. It's Richard Branson liberalism. These people who talk about their values, about their feminism, about their idealism, and then at the same time they avoid their taxes on a massive scale.

48:38Last week I was in Sweden, you know, in a talk show. And on that table, there was also a Swedish billionaire named Petr Stordalen, who's now in a big fight with the tax authorities because, you know, he's doing some massive tax avoidance, you know, trying to get untaxed dividends out of his company. And, you know, I asked him, like, what do you do? Like, how do you actually use your wealth, your privilege? and then their answer is like, yeah, yeah, I invest in culture. And then what does that mean? Yeah, he organized a party for his own employees so he could even use it as a write-off and then that's culture philanthropy or something like that.

49:17I mean, the shallowness of these people is astounding, especially if you realize what they could do. Like some of the challenges that we face, whether it's the suffering of animals or the terrible diseases like malaria, it's not that much that we need in order to make a big, big difference against it. You know, give directly one of my favorite NGOs that gives money directly to the poorest in the world. If some billionaire would, you know, wake up today and give them, let's say,$10 billion, they could lift a whole country. They could live Malawi out of extreme poverty. We've got the evidence that that would work.

49:53So, I don't know, these people drive me nuts and they make me really angry. So that famous line, it feels like I'm at a firefighter's conference and no one is allowed to speak about water. yeah taxes taxes taxes all the rest is bullshit and and your anger was so obviously authentic that it became infectious you know there will be people who have said similar things but with less authenticity and and what i've tried to do during this conversation is work out the roots of that authenticity and i hope people are seeing and even even feeling them but but to step into the sort of the modern world, as it were, rather than the world of ideas, were you unnerved by the scale of the reaction or did you bloody love it?

50:41I guess mostly the latter. Yeah, I really loved it. It gave me hope. This feeling of support that you've that you're just part of a much larger movement and that this anger and outrage perhaps can be channeled in the right direction. And that's exactly what one of our missions is right now. This year, we will start our first tax fairness fellowship. So we're recruiting some of the most radical nerds we can find. People who maybe right now work in finance. Maybe they work at a hedge fund. Maybe they work as a consultant or a banker or as a brilliant marketeer. But yeah, we like to see ourselves as the Robin Hoods of talent.

51:18And we're going to take them out of their BS jobs. And they're going to join a team of Avengers, if you will, to make that global billionaire tax a reality. We're working with people like Gabriel Zucman, the French economist, whom I admire immensely. You should have them in your show sometime. And yeah, they've made a lot of progress. And they need reinforcements. They need more people to work on that. Not least because the opposition is enormous, incredibly well organized and better funded than anything on this planet since the Borgias. Yep. And that must be unnerving sometimes. Oh, yeah. frightening sometimes i mean you make incredibly powerful enemies yeah yeah yeah i mean we talked about immortality and turning your life into a monument that also believes that you need to look past you know your own death and the boundaries of your own life um of the 12 founders of the british society for the abolition of the slave trade only one was still alive when it finally happened in 1838 when british slavery slavery was finally abolished across the british empire Seneca Falls you know the famous women's right convention in the United States 1848 it's still you know a pilgrimage place for many young feminists they go there to learn about the 68 women who came together there well only one was still alive when women finally got the right to vote in 1920 and on that day on the day of elections she didn't cast her vote because she was too frail and too sick.

52:49Now, that is moral ambition, really fighting for a cause that's much bigger than you are. And the causes that I talk about in this book, whether it's the fight against factory farming, big tobacco for global billionaire snacks, I think it's quite likely that at least some of them, I won't see them happening during my lifetime because they're just too big. but if if you can achieve everything during your lifetime you're probably not thinking big enough yeah you know you probably know this Alexei Navalny said something similar when people used to ask him how he felt about the prospect of Putin being toppled and he was always very very clear that he wasn't by any stretch of the imagination confident that he would be there to see it not not just because or Putin's success it's not just because of the peril the mortal peril his work put him in but also because of the the the the nature of time the slow passage of time and how awe-inspiring is that well it's incredible that's why i mentioned yeah yeah when you talk to people like that you feel so small in a way you're like wow that that i mean old people used to say things about young people needing a war and i used to laugh at them but they had half a point it's something that was worth fighting for yeah and and our generation or the sort of post boomer generations across the west have had things so easy yeah that they are both failing properly to process the peril that they're currently in the fascist threat that is now rising up yeah in our countries in all of our countries yeah and and also um rising to the challenge of properly fighting it which brings us to another of your adventures in um in the headlines as we could call them which which which was when you were invited to give the wreath lecture at the bbc at the end of last year and i think the day before it was due to be broadcast someone gave you a heads up that they'd removed um a rather crucial line from that um from that lecture would you have a have a go uh slotting that moment into everything else that we have been talking about and what that represents because it was much more than an intellectual insult it was almost a vindication of a lot of the things you argued for so being asked to deliver the wreath lectures was really one of the great honors of my life right an extraordinary opportunity to you know to find the connections between all my books utopia for illis humankind moral ambition and to basically try and explain in, what is it, two hours, 12 ,000 words, what I've been trying to do for a decade, how this is all connected.

55:28And the first lecture was really about the misery of today. It was about the decadence, the corruption of our modern day leaders. I joke at the beginning of that lecture that I learned in church as a young boy that every good sermon consists of three parts. You start with misery and then you move on towards salvation and thankfulness. But you start with the bad news. And the bad news was indeed that these big, powerful institutions had succumbed to cowardice. And the irony was so immense. I have a literal line in there about, you know, media networks, corporations, universities bending the knee to the new administration.

56:12You know, being threatened with lawsuits and then, you know, capitulating, capitulating indeed. And then to have the BBC do exactly that, exactly that, you know, to take out a line, in my view, a pretty factual line. I thought carefully about that line. I don't call Trump the most corrupt president in American history. You could argue that that was Nixon or some of the 19th century presidents. But I call him the most openly corrupt president. And I think that, I mean, that is pretty much a fact. Like, it's very hard to argue against it, at least. There's so much evidence now that the Trump family is making billions of money openly on the presidency.

56:54If you just look at their ventures into crypto, you know, the launch of the Trump coin, which is a legal way to bribe him, basically. It's very, very clear. but then to have that institution take out that line and they clearly said to me and we talked about this on your live show they clearly said to me that they would not have done it if i had given the lectures a month earlier if the whole panorama thing wasn't in the news if the trump not lawsuit was not there they would not have done it so they were completely honest that this was not about journalism this was not about truth this was about them being scared of the lawsuit and of the trump regime and it wouldn't have had any impact on the lawsuit i suppose they were just desperately hoping that if they didn't upset him even more he might change his mind about suing them because there's no way it was ever going to have any impact on now on the lead on that legal case but it really makes you wonder what else is going on inside that machine inside that institution there's there's a great historian timothy snyder familiar for to you and for many for many listeners probably as well.

58:02He wrote this book on tyranny and he has, I think, 20 lessons for us right now. And the first lesson is do not obey in advance. That's where it starts to go wrong. A lot of people think that authoritarianism is about the autocrat giving orders and then us obeying. It's not how it works. It's a lot of people assuming that the autocrats don't like this or that and then obeying in advance and that is more pernicious that is that is more dangerous than than the direct autocracy and that's exactly what the bbc did here so you had no hesitation in blowing the whistle on that look i i mentioned that you haven't been invited back to davos i once had this spat with tucker carlson um when i don't know he he lost his mind and then didn't want to air the interview and he told you to go fuck yourself yeah people who may not have seen the clip yeah and it was partially funny but on the other hand i also wasn't entirely proud of myself of how i conducted myself during that interview i thought it was a bit full of myself you know saying like oh i'm speaking truth to power and and um also suggesting that he was saying certain things because you know he was paid being paid to do it because i think was too shallow of a point.

59:19I think Tucker Carlson really believes what he says. It's just that if he, like as Norman Chomsky famously said, you know, if you do not believe what you said, you would not be sitting there. They would not be paying you to sit there. So anyway, I was a little bit in doubt, like, should I put this out? Should I not? We decided to do that in the end. I think it was the right decision. But in this case, like, I had no doubt on my mind whatsoever. I was like, I'm on the right side here. And you idiots, you cowards, you're not. Did you find out what the chain of command looked like? Do you know, did anyone ever confide in you who had dropped?

59:56Because there would have been, I've worked at the BBC, and I share your concern about the broader malaise that this incident highlights. But there would have been people there who felt, and you know there were people there who felt as outraged by it as you did. So two observations. The first one I heard, they told me that it was discussed at the top levels within the BBC. But the second observation is that I had actually expected more, more of a backlash. Before this happened, I thought maybe there will be walkouts or something like that within the BBC because if this happened to the journalism institution where I was working, like I worked for a decade at The Correspondent, a great investigative journalism platform in the Netherlands, I think the employees would be livid.

1:00:38They would be extremely angry at their employers and editors-in-chief. And I'm just kind of wondering, like, why didn't that happen? Do you have any insight into that? Because this is like they invited me to do the refectures, and then they take out a sentence against my wishes. I mean, there's a word for that, right? That's censorship, right? Yeah, absolutely. So if you work there at one of the great institutions of journalism, of speech or whatever, why was there not more of a backlash? I suspect that some people who would have had enough profile to make a public objection really matter would feel that the Reith Lecture wasn't journalism in its purest form, that it served a different purpose, that it spoke to a different medium.

1:01:30Which is true. Which is true. But I also think that there is a massive problem with what they call balance and what is actually false equivalence. So I've spoken to BBC people who have tied themselves in extraordinary knots to argue that you, I mean, we saw it first probably with global warming and climate change, that you always have to have the opposite position represented, even if it would involve if Galileo was on the program. You'd have to have some bloke there insisting that heliocentrism is wrong, you know, just for balance. And so that probably has invaded the DNA of the corporation. And it's a terrible, terrible thing.

1:02:07But it at least begins to explain, not excuse. But you know what really struck me in the reporting on Gaza? Go on. Is that when I went to NOS.nl, which is basically the BBC of the Netherlands, or, you know, the quality newspapers in the Netherlands, like NRC and the Volkskrant. You know, it wasn't in the beginning, obviously. But as soon as like 95 or 98 percent of genocide experts said, yes, this is it. We can use the G word. Yeah. Then Dutch mainstream journalists also started to do that. So you could you would see the word genocidal violence in normal reporting. And I think that was just normal journalism because like just like with climate, like if 97 percent of climate scientists agree like this is this is manmade global warming.

1:02:59um like we've got this is a scientific or academic discipline like we've we we've got a lot of brilliant minds who have studied this for a long time and um maybe there's initially like one or two you know dissident experts but that was not the case anymore this was like really the consensus you had the international association of genocide scholars putting out statements like people this is it yeah um but then with the refectures like the editors really did not want me to say that And again, it's an offhand comment. And I refuse to take it out. But they were like, can you please take that out?

1:03:33Can you please not say Gaza and genocide in one sentence? And I was like, where does the extreme stress around it, where does it come from? Well, that I can answer. And that's our newspapers, which are not like anything you've got in the Netherlands. I was asked some years ago why Fox News, the equivalent of a Fox News has never taken hold in this country, given particularly the shared language. And the answer is the Daily Mail. the answer is we already had it. And that was also a shocking experience to be on the front page of the Daily Mail and to see them outright lying, like absolutely lying.

1:04:08So for example, the clearest lie that they included in that piece was we have contacted Rutger Bregman for comment. He did not reply. I was not contacted. They might have emailed a junior member of the press department. Not at all. I've asked everyone in my team, my publishers. No one received an email. no one received a call they did not do it um and to just lie about that i found the brazenness of that and and that doesn't exist in the nilands that's true like our journalism culture of journalism has not degenerated to that extent but the bbc you see to to answer your question the third strand the 13 of this four would now you would have people who did not go into this profession to be well known that they would be if not on the front page then on page five that the commissioning editor, the producer, the anonymous background journalist, not the front of camera, not the celebrity.

1:05:04Even they would have to pick their children up from school knowing that everybody was pointing at them because they'd been in the Daily Mail today. So that is oddly, just to come foolish circle, that is obeying in advance. And that's something that newspapers have done in this country, which is closely unique, actually, in my knowledge of print media. You've seen it happening increasingly with broadcast media. But I told you that we would have a lot of ground to cover. Absolutely. So before we blow the whistle, who do you have in mind when you're writing, particularly the most recent, but when you're writing Moral Ambition?

1:05:41Is it a younger version of you? Who is your muse, as it were? So let me be really clear here. Everyone can be morally ambitious. History is so clear there. we've got people of all ages, all backgrounds, people of privilege, of very humble backgrounds who can change the course of history. I've got a whole chapter about Rosa Parks in there, who is now often remembered for being that humble seamstress who refused to give up her seat. She was actually one of the most badass political strategists of the 20th century and went to, you know, a school for activists, learned all the tactics. They thought super carefully about how to make the biggest splash with the Montgomery bus boycott.

1:06:23They were waiting for the right moment. Many, many other women have been arrested and girls have been arrested before Rosa Parks. They were just like, okay, with Rosa Parks, that's the one we'll work with. She's going to be the icon of our movement. And she played the role spectacularly well. So that is for me really, really important. If I sometimes dunk a little bit more on, let's say those people of privilege, the people stuck in the Bermuda Triangle of talent, of consultancy, finance, and corporate law. It's one, because I rather enjoy that. And it is also because these people deserve that kick in the ass and they ought to be doing way more.

1:07:07But as we talked about earlier in this conversation, I believe we need a double movement. We need the bottom-up movement. We need the people in the streets. We need the activists. We need powerful unions. We need all of that, but we also need a new elite. And we've been betrayed by our current leaders. They're immoral. They're inserious. They are, in Europe, increasingly irrelevant, I'm afraid to say. And we need a new elite. We need people who have a skin in the game, who are actually practicing what they preach, who are willing to try something, fail, stand up again. I mean, that's the Theodore Roosevelt ethos of, he said, it's not the critic who counts, but it's the man or the woman in the arena.

1:07:52Moral ambition, how to find your purpose is out now in paperback. Rutger Bregman, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

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