Sadiq Khan: You Cannot Be Popular Every Single Day in Government

17:23Sadiq Khan:But if you come from a certain background, you don't get work. So I'd always make sure I'd give them work. Or when I became an MP, I would always guarantee work experience to those who went to a comprehensive school or, you know, certain background. And similarly, as a mayor, we've provided mentorships. and approach because you know i recognize that for some people they don't under they don't see what opportunities there are and this aspiration word is meaningless because how can you aspire to be something you don't know exists for you and so yeah so i mean i love school i genuinely love school

17:52James O'Brien:and an effortless segue to from furcroft primary to ernest bevin yeah i mean there was

17:58Sadiq Khan:So Ernie Spive was a tough school, man. So basically, I mean, so do you know Amal Rajan? Amal tells a great story. He's younger than me, but he went to the neighboring school called Graveney, former grammar school. And he tells a great story about how he doesn't understand how I could become an MP or a mayor because those kids would beat us up. And, you know, they all ended up in prison. So it was a tough school, but I loved it. So, you know, when you're in the first year, there are stories about, you know, the seniors putting your head down the toilet and flushing your head, or when you have your BCG, your injection, the kids punch you in the arm.

18:34Sadiq Khan:Your listeners are going, what the hell are you talking about? Basically, what it is, you'd have a BCG, an injection in your left arm when you were sort of year one, year seven, year eight, and the elder kids would punch your arm, right? And so I haven't got bad memories of school. I had an older brother at the school, Tariq, and so I think that makes a difference you've got an older brother it's a different relationship to other kids

19:00James O'Brien:so when did the unpleasantness of that era with regards to ethnicity and immigration status sort of present it so when did it appear

19:11Sadiq Khan:at the Henry of Pince there was also this lovely sense of solidarity which is just the best so basically if I was out walking with my friends you know two white friends me one black friend walking down the road and somebody across the road clearly not from our estate maybe but from our estate you know you say something abusive you know called me the p word or called my friend the n word what was great was all four all five of us would go across to have the punch up because and that solidarity is really important and so you know i can genuinely say hand on heart you know my white friends have probably fought more than I have for them, because there's no need to fight for them in one way, but secondly, because there's some solidarity.

19:55Sadiq Khan:Or by the way, I might, you know, my white friends or I might not be black, but if you call my mate the N-word, that's a fight, you know, because you can't, that's the line you couldn't cross. You couldn't cross that line. And even now, people don't understand why, you know, it's a red rag to a bull, because it's personal and it's visceral. It goes to your identity, because you can't change it. And so, yeah, I mean, it wasn't uncommon to hear the P word, you know. Even kids can be cruel. So you're playing Kiss Chase and somebody will say, by the way, for those listeners, look up what Kiss Chase is, right?

20:31Sadiq Khan:It's not cool. Don't recommend it. Anyway, and so, you know, somebody will say to somebody else, don't kiss me, you're a P. Or don't kiss me, you're an N. And then that would lead to punch up in the playground, right? And so, but that's because they brought those prejudices from home. And so there'd be, that wouldn't be uncommon, the P word, the N word. But I don't know when it disappeared. And so that's what's remarkable. It didn't happen overnight, but over a period of time, I'd not heard the P word in years, or the N word in years. And I remember this conversation with a friend of mine towards the end of 2016.

21:10Sadiq Khan:By that stage, I'm the mayor. And he was going to boxing, the same club that we used to go to, by the way. And he was now a professional boxer. And he'd gone into an incident on the road and the other person had been abusive, but used the N word. And when he told me the story, I said, funny you say that because somebody I spoke to yesterday said she was in a bus and she'd heard the P word. And so these words disappeared, right? By the way, disappeared partly because of what people what people put your call political correctness I was just thinking that but for a variety of reasons but they've come back and so my daughters were raised in a similar area to me never heard the P word ever I've heard it recently and so it goes to show you know yes we've made remarkable progress but in some parts we're regressing as well so you know it's only because you ask the questions I look back and I give you examples of bad experiences but I had a great childhood I enjoyed my childhood because, as you said, I've not thought about this.

22:11Sadiq Khan:It's the only childhood I've had.

22:12James O'Brien:And a crucial sense from what you're saying of things getting better. So even on the bad days, there'd be a subconscious sense that the gradient was moving in that direction. Whereas, as you say, for the last 10 years or so, it felt in some ways that it's moving in that. It's a very different psychological condition. Yes, but on. And I think the reason and that's why this hope, optimism and fear and pessimism is really important.

22:34Sadiq Khan:So if you're always in a forward trajectory, it's like you're an escalator going up. The direction of travel is good. Hand on heart, it's difficult to say to somebody who's experiencing the downward, the pessimism or the fear. You know, there's other ways to describe it. Your I question is a genuine question. I'm not sure the answer is the escalator's coming down because I'm always an optimist. But we've taken a knock and we can't pretend. And by the way, I think it's possible to hold two thoughts at the same time. Yes, we've made remarkable progress. There are still big problems. And see, if you and I were speaking 10 years ago, I'd be articulating my frustration at the lack of progress.

23:16Sadiq Khan:I'd say, you know what, it'd been great progress. This is my life story. My dad used to talk about when he first came here, it's difficult to comprehend for my generation. There were signs in guest houses and pubs. he didn't go to public, he could see the signs saying no blacks, no Irish, no dogs, right? And by blacks, anybody of colour is black, basically. It's not white, you're black. No Irish, no dogs. Within one generation, within one generation, his son's the mayor of London, right? So that's quite remarkable. It shows what a great city we are where the citizens in one generation are saying no blacks, no Irish, no dogs.

23:53Sadiq Khan:Literally, generation on, they're voting for someone like me. That is remarkable. And any objective criteria. So you can say we've made great progress, but also actually the n-word and the p-word and the y-word are no longer extinct they now they've been brought back um from extinction they've been used again to the point where they're almost normalized i mean literally there were race riots in this country the summer before the last just think about that race rights in this country because of what happened in the horrors of southpaw right and so i think that's why i think we've got to be cognizant of you know progress isn't linear and you know we can't be complacent and so my frustration now is not lack of progress

24:40James O'Brien:james it's oh my god we're regressive it's the regress well it's also it's interesting you describe yourself as optimistic because you can come at it from either angle can't you you can feel grief and and and horror at this reversal or you can derive some confidence and optimism from the fact that it's been put to bed before and it can be put to bed again. Absolutely right. You're in the second camp.

24:59Sadiq Khan:Without a doubt. And a number of things I think you've got to be hopeful. And the same goes for whether it's, you know, we know that racism can be defeated. Similarly, we know homelessness can be defeated. We did it in the noughties. We did it during the pandemic. And so you've got to have proof points. You know, I don't believe in this jingoistic blind optimism. Optimism with evidence is really important. And based on my life experiences, I'm incredibly hopeful because I'm not being funny. I've gone from a situation where, you know, literally walking down the road in a diverse community like Tootin, Wandsworth, you can recall the P word, to literally my successor as an MP is also an ethnic minority who's of Islamic faith, right?

25:44Sadiq Khan:Mixed heritage, right? And so that ain't bad.

25:53Just wondering where this character appears in the story, when you are seeing those figures on the screens on election night in 86?

26:04James O'Brien:87. 87. And are you thinking then that could be me one day, or are you just feeling a sense of horizons opening up?

26:12Sadiq Khan:No, here's the thing. And this is the migrant story. So I must qualify this because I've got friends who are bus drivers. Not because my parents are embarrassed of being a bus driver or my mum's a seamstress. But every migrant wants their kids to do better than them. It's just a fact, right? And so please don't take it in a bad way. And so our parents want their kids to do better than them. And by the way, my grandparents wanted my parents to do better than them, right? It's just a feature of migrant mentality. India to Pakistan, Pakistan to London. So education was important. And for reasons I'm not quite clear about, but in my school, if you were bright and white, you did humanities.

26:49Sadiq Khan:It's really, I can't explain this. I can't get to the bottom of this. If you're bright and age and you did sciences, maybe they just thought we're better doctors, dentists and engineers rather than the others. And so that's just my observation. I've not asked any of my teachers about it, why that was. But so I was relatively bright. I was in top band. So the job that was a great job was a dentist. And so I was destined to be a dentist. So I did biology, chemistry, maths, A-levels. I didn't really enjoy those sciences, to be fair. I preferred history, sociology, English, right? Right. At all levels.

27:23Sadiq Khan:And I did better in those than I did in sciences, by the way. So I was destined to be a dentist. Politicians are not in my lexicon, not in my vocabulary. And so I did love politics. You know, I fell in love with Neil Kinnock. He made this great speech in 85. I fell in love with him on TV. In those days, they'd show the entire speech, and they'd be in use at 9, they'd be in use at 10. You could watch clips and stuff. And so I was interested in politics. but my dad wanted us to have a profession and a vocation and so one of my brothers mechanic one of my brothers pharmacist my sister's an accountant i then i i come next uh so my brother comes next he's in computers i'm going to be a dentist so the idea is each one of us is do you know what i mean yeah and so and so i'm destined to be a dentist then in my sixth form mr brad my math teacher he said why do you want to be a dentist and um i didn't really thought about it And I said, because it's a great career, and hours are good, great quality of life, and so forth.

28:23Sadiq Khan:He goes, you're so argumentative. Why don't you be a lawyer? And I thought he was joking, but he said, no, no, honestly, you're always arguing. You're always making a point. I was in the school council and stuff. I'd give a contrary view and stuff. Thatcher was prime minister, I'd be talking about. But I'd make an argument about why we're studying this, whatever. and at the same time by coincidence there's a program on TV called LA Law it's for today's generation there's suits but we had LA Law right and there's a guy called Fuentes who's a character called Fuentes and Jimmy Smith's played him and you know there's there's a few characters there's Cusack Fuentes Gracie Fiennes was pretty cool and so a combination of Mr.

29:06Sadiq Khan:Brown saying you're very argumentative why don't you be a lawyer and LA Law I thought yeah you know what and the joy of doing biology chemistry masses you could do any degree had I done humanities I would and I decided if I wanted to be a dentist I was stuck I couldn't do medicine or dentistry and so in it's literally do my UCAS forms so towards the end of my first year of six which I didn't do dentistry even though I spent two weeks doing doing work experience in a dentist practice not in a law firm I flipped and I did a law degree how was the work experience can i just say can i give apologies to all the dentists listening i have the same dentist for like 30 years apologies uh dalish um but thank god thank god thank god you know if for no reason proof point there is a god is you know

29:57James O'Brien:less stress though less stress yeah i guess so um there's a quick word on the stress because it is an interesting decade the one during which you've been mayor and during which britain has seen a return to some of the poison that was much more commonplace when you were young and i used to i think i've told you this i used to get very upset on your behalf by some of the stuff that would come into the studio as i am a white person albeit that i lean to the left i obviously don't get the kind of abuse that you get and and i thought i had a toxic inbox some mornings like one percent five percent of it but on the mornings that you're in and then we've done events together publicly where some elements of the crowd have been off the charts obnoxious i remember one in particular when before you'd even drawn breath you were reading from your book on on a stage and i think i think i think they used the worst imaginable language they stood up there were children in the crowd and these people stood up and shout f off khan you and then words that i'm not going to repeat on here and i used to try because we don't see each other outside of these formats so i get a couple of minutes before the microphone comes on or after the microphone comes on and i used to ask you why you don't call it out and i always remember your answer was that you don't want to put young people off politics is that still i mean is that still a driving force for you so i should i should

31:20Sadiq Khan:finish the story which is you also pulled me up after after a program and said i'm in danger of gaslighting people thinking it's okay yeah i did say that i went away and spoke to my wife about and stuff because it was quite what you said to me was with the best of attention i thought about let me explain my thinking and i can give you a real life experience of my thinking so when i was chosen by uh london uh labor party members to be the labor candidate to run for mayor it happened in september 2015 and i remember that campaign really well i was i was chosen on september the 11th 2015 and the election was in may 2016 and at the beginning of the campaign i I was meeting minorities of various ages saying how proud they were, just that I was a candidate.

32:08Sadiq Khan:And, you know, the kids were volunteering for my campaign. And this was long before this guy called Mamdani, by the way.

32:15James O'Brien:Yeah, all right.

32:16Sadiq Khan:And so anyway, so the point was, and so they're joining my campaign, loads of volunteers, and they were encouraging their kids to get involved in mainstream politics. Up until then, you know, they encouraged their kids to be accountants or whatever. And it was great. As the campaign progressed, my Tory opponent and those who support him were saying horrible things about me. The newspapers were writing horrible stuff about me, untrue about my family, about platforms I'd shared, about the sort of may I be linked with my religion and my ethnicity. Towards the end of that campaign, there were parents pulling their kids from volunteering in my campaign.

32:53Sadiq Khan:I mean, I remember one day, three of my volunteers who are Muslim in tears because of a poll which had been commissioned. And the question that was asked, and by the way, polls is all about the question you asked, was, and I'm paraphrasing, so we can fact check this. How comfortable will you be with a Muslim mayor? Do you have the questions framed?

33:18James O'Brien:Yeah.

33:18Sadiq Khan:Right? Not how proud would you be of this incident. How comfortable would you feel or how safe would you feel with a Muslim mayor? And the numbers weren't great because the way the question was asked, right? And they were in tears because they thought, how can that be, right? And so I remember these volunteers and how they felt and people being scared to put their head by the parapet because of what my Tory opponent and newspaper was saying. And that stuck with me. And so I've got a responsibility. And I've always tried to put ladders down, whether I've been a lawyer or an MP or a mayor, encouraging others.

33:49Sadiq Khan:I think there's plenty of cake for everyone. you know encouraging others to get involved in mainstream politics and in public service it's incredibly important but there's another reason why i don't like talking about it which is this i'm still an active politician think of it as um me being bullied at school in the playground or my state and you're doing the bullying if i let you know you're getting to me what would that do to you that'll encourage you to do more of it right and i've been involved in fights where I blow you a kiss and that winds you up, right? Or I don't show that I'm bothered and that winds you up.

34:25Or I punch you back and that makes you go on the back foot.

34:29Sadiq Khan:So there's that as well. And the third thing is this. I'm still an active politician. So it's like asking, you know, Anthony Joshua or Tyson Fury, what are your weak spots? How can I get to you, right? I'm not going to tell you what my weak spots are because I'm still an active boxer and I'm still a politician. and so you carry on coming to buy ticket to come to my books but you know events try and warm you you're not going to get to me i'm not going to be cowered by you right but also i want young people to realize these guys can't get to us and so it's really important and so but but you do you you know you perform a very important service letting people know the sort of stuff that people like me enjoy by this not just me no of course there are others as well people of color women speech Dawn Butler some of the stuff Dawn gets it's outrageous or Diane Abbott or Jess Phillips and so it could be because you're a woman it could be because you're a Muslim and because it could be because you're a black and so we've got to push back and one of something you know I saw and apologies for breaching confidences and I'm sure he won't mind I saw Rishi Sunak recently and his wife she thanked me for sticking up for Rishi I said what do you mean she goes well a few weeks ago a a few months ago, sorry, somebody said Rishi can't be English, right?

35:44Sadiq Khan:Because Rishi Sunak is, you know, Hindu or Indian origin. And I responded and I said, that's ridiculous. You close your eyes. There's nothing more quintessential than Rishi Sunak, right? And although I'm displeased, he's a conservative. I'm incredibly proud that our country had a prime minister of Hindu faith of Indian origin. And he's 100 % British, 100 % English, right? and that sense of solidarity is really important i think um and so yeah of course it's horrible stuff i face and by the way i say this not in any way you know well betide me no other politician faces the stuff that i face they just don't in this country um you know one of the reasons why on a serious note you know um i've got a lot of sympathy and friendship and affection for zohran mamdani is some of the crap he's faced in new york and the great thing though about both Zoran's experience and mine is our respective cities showed the very best by choosing him in New York, the second greatest city in the world.

36:45Sadiq Khan:And, you know, I'd say choosing me not once, not twice, but three times in London.

36:48James O'Brien:So that's bus drivers, dentists, Birmingham, Manchester.

36:53Sadiq Khan:Quite, yeah.

36:57James O'Brien:You've already given the game away a bit by revealing that you became a counsellor at 23, at which point, calculations are correct, you've barely been a lawyer for a year.

37:06Sadiq Khan:No, I was in law school. I became a councillor. Before you even got your training on. Yes, I became... Why? Where does this come from? Yes, I became in the Labour Party at 15. And so, you know, I'd volunteer for the party. I loved it. You know, my dad is into politics, and so we talk about it at home. You know, when you're one of eight siblings, you know, you learn how to argue and negotiate and all that sort of stuff. It's a skill you pick up. And so I love politics, and I love, as I said, Neil Kinnock. But my contribution was simply going to a meeting, talking politics, delivering some leaflets, helping collect stuff for a jumble sale to raise funds and so forth.

37:42I'm at law school, and I'm in Guildford, and they are choosing the candidate for the ward for the council elections,

37:53Sadiq Khan:which is going to be in May 24. So I'm at law school, and I come back to the ward meeting where they're discussing the subsequent meeting where they're going to select candidates. and I somebody said to me he's passed away David Hughes he's passed away now he said have you thought about standing and I never thought about standing but the fact that he asked me the question I was flattered the fact that he thought I could be a councillor I was just blown away because obviously these these you know councillors are these people who are just amazing community public servants and I went away and thought about it and then I thought yeah why not and I didn't tell my dad or my mum or my siblings they weren't members of the party then and so I rocked up the meeting and I'd not even what you're supposed to do is organized knock on doors speak to the members get you know organized right didn't organize I went along and it shows about it shows the importance of class actually because I was trained to be a lawyer I had a school that's transferable the ability to make a five-minute speech and answer questions and that's one of the downsides of politics because it leads to only a certain sort of person that can be successful but an upside for me because I went and I say this again apologies for the arrogance but I made a cracking speech I answered the questions and the membership chose me to be a Labour candidate and I'm still at law school by the way so you know I got chosen living in Guildford even you know although my residential to my parents home that was in the autumn of 23 a big part of the council age 23 not realizing the youngest in london uh council in london um you know so became a trainee solicitor in in you know september 93 uh some i'm a lawyer in daytime and council meetings in the evenings so and there's a sort of 10 year riding two horses period now where you all worked

39:47James O'Brien:i mean how soon after because your career as a lawyer was pretty meteoric you became an equity partner pretty much before you were 30 which is a big deal 27 27 and you developed an enthusiasm for human rights law um employment law sort of people who perhaps are not the most represented in our society or the most represented legally were you how quickly were you thinking about the

40:13Sadiq Khan:next stage of politics listen it's law for me it's law so it was always i want to go i want to carry

40:18James O'Brien:on this trajectory. So what changed?

40:20Sadiq Khan:Yes, so it was always law. And so two things about being a lawyer. One is, and I say this, I've never said this before, but Denzel Washington changed my life. So I was a training solicitor. You know, Souther and I had been going out for a while. I wanted to get married. And I wanted to do this sort of law, help people like my brothers and my parents. So my brothers had friends who were always stopped by the police. We're saying all the Suss Law in the old days. suss law basically meant the police had a better suspicion of this obviously you know if you you know drive them all black by the black is anybody who's not white by the way so or stopped and searched and stuff and so i want to tell people like that i want to tell people like my dad and his colleagues who may be treated wrongly at work and so that's sort of all i wanted to do but at the same time i wanted to get married and went to have a home and so forth and you know i wanted to stop living with my brother um and and so that sort of law didn't pay very well and so i remember i was doing a case as a trainee and the other side's lawyer said to me do you fancy going for lunch and i i never even now so my whole working life i've always had lunch at my desk because it's time wasted having lunch very exceptionally you'll have lunch with somebody and so i've got a time for lunch and he said do you want a coffee and he says look you know again apologies sounds incredibly arrogant we think you're really impressive as an opponent why don't My salary was, as a trainee solicitor, I was being paid£13 ,500.

41:46Sadiq Khan:And I said, not really. He said, no, no, we, we, we, we, I don't know how much you're earning, but as a newly qualified solicitor, we'll pay you£30 ,000. That's like huge, huge money for me, huge money for me, right?

41:58James O'Brien:It means I can, you know,£13 ,500 to£30 ,000.

42:02Sadiq Khan:This would have been early 90s. And then I was, just by that week, I was thinking about it, and sadly said, you know, I was just supporting whatever I do, but this is the sort of lawyer you love. but it'd be nice to have a decent salary. And a film came out called Philadelphia. I don't know if you remember those films. And Denzel plays a lawyer acting for Tom Hanks, who has HIV AIDS. And I was wobbling in terms of what I want to do because, you know, by the way, if you're in the magic circle, you need even more money, right? Of course, yeah. The top five. And so I am tempted to earn decent money as a lawyer rather than the money that I'm earning as a lawyer.

42:43Sadiq Khan:But then you watch this film and you see what Denzel is all about. And I said, no, that's the sort of law I want to do. I want to be helping people who, and it sounds really pompous and sanctimonious. No, it doesn't. A hero saviour. And so Denzel meant that I stayed doing that sort of stuff. And I loved it. I loved it because basically I was working with these two, people don't realise the two people that trained me. One is Mike Fisher. Mike Fisher acts for the Guildford Four. He acted for the Maguire 7. These are miscarriage cases, but he overturned miscarriages. Louise Christian acted for victims of the Marcionist Riverboat Disaster.

43:19Sadiq Khan:She acted for people who died in police custody. And so both Louise and Mike were these amazing teachers. Not only were they teachers, but they made me their equal. And so, by the way, as an equity partner, I was doing very well. so I was never tempted to be a politician and being a councillor is what I did in my spare time so chairing liberty I did in my spare time you know being the vice chair of legal action was in my spare time you know being a visiting lecturer was in my spare time and so what happened then was in 2003 the MP for Tutu and a guy called Tom Cox who'd been an MP since 1970 so the only MP I'd ever known I'd never met any other MP besides Tom Cox right so Tom says he's going to retire and there's nowhere else I want to be the MP except for Tutin.

44:06Sadiq Khan:Have you even thought of that?

44:08James O'Brien:No, no.

44:09Sadiq Khan:Look, listen, Tom's one of these guys you think is going to live forever. Sure. It's like, you know, and so you never even thought about it. And then, you know, the MP for Tutin, I'm the councillor here. And I wasn't, Tony Blair was prime minister. So, A, he's stepping down Tom Cox, but b i'm not tony blair's favored candidate there's somebody else they wanted to be the candidate okay and so it's a long shot but you know why not might as well do this and stuff and so i went for the selection uh and more than more than not because it was a safe seat in london people saw it and so more than a hundred people from around the country went for this seat in tootin including local people and the membership the low part is very democratic the membership of the local area decides who the candidate is.

44:58Sadiq Khan:So it's difficult to stitch up. You can try and stitch it up, but it's difficult. And so then I was chosen as the candidate for Tutin. And then we realized, Sadiq and I, it's a massive pay drop being an MP from what I'd been earning as an equity partner. But again, Sadiq has always been super supportive. Whatever I want to do, you know, it's not just being supportive, it's just being a cheerleader. Actually, you need a spouse who's going to really help you. And so she was supportive, she was on board. chosen as the Labour candidate for tooting, I've got to turn my pond. I'm leaving the practice.

45:33Sadiq Khan:Do you know what I mean? Because, you know, anyway, so long story short, I walked away from my legal practice because I don't want to have two jobs to be a full-time candidate, full-time member of Parliament.

45:43James O'Brien:So not accidental, but certainly not the grand fruition of a master plan that had been in place for you. The door opened and you looked at it

45:54Sadiq Khan:in a new way for the first time the joy the joy of being the joy of being one of the bosses of the firm is you can pick and choose your cases and i was blessed i did cases in the european court of human rights and in the supreme court as it was now in those days house of lords i had some great cases i was some great barristers uh one of them's another prime minister um uh and others as well some of them are supreme court judges and that's the sort of peer group i had um very precocious weren't you uh i've never i i've never my siblings would say you know they have lacked confidence um you know i don't buy this imposter this imposter syndrome stuff let me tell you why i don't buy it is because once you get inside the room you realize they're not better than you and so the first you know the first time it dawned on me firstly nobody's to be fair the first time I realized that actually you're as good as them and this applies to kids as well and I always say to kids this and you're as good as them don't think they're better than you because they're there they've had the opportunity you haven't let me help with the opportunity so the College of Law in Guildford was a really weird college of law the way it works is you do one of the ways you become a lawyer is you do a three year degree and then you can do two years at Bar School one year at bar school, one year at College of Law if you want to be a solicitor.

47:17Sadiq Khan:And because a lot of the Oxbridge lot went to College of Law in Guildford, they were literally, I don't know if I've experienced this since primary school, that have a leaked table of how you've done it in a test. It's really weird, right? And so I've never experienced this before. And so the first time they did a test, it was a test, not an exam, a test, I'm making this up now, so I'm apologizing. So there's 30 in the class and I'm 12. And that winded me up. Why am I 12? You know what I mean? so because I knew now they're Oxbridge and I was an Oxbridge right I don't I didn't realize that the university I went to wasn't a top university in their definition of a top university until I was at law school because all I knew sure you said I mean so that's all you know yeah all right so I go to law school there's a bit of arrogance amongst the Oxbridge lot and apologies again to the graduates and you know all so my best friends and family are exploration and so and so but I'd never felt somebody looking down upon me until these tables came out right this this on the clock you know I thought saw this man and so and so I didn't after that I was top five right I was determined you top five right and so this imposter syndrome stuff I've got to say hand and heart apologies to those who like me and think I'm being incredibly arrogant I don't see it man because sure if you said to me tomorrow you can go and train with Liverpool Football Club yeah I'm an imposter there I'm just not good enough as them I get that right if you said to me tomorrow go and perform open heart surgery I'm an imposter then but nothing I've done so far maybe I'm not stretching myself no I think you're

48:58James O'Brien:lucky that you were young when you had that I think for many people it does come but it comes a little bit later It comes, you know, maybe in their 30s or their 40s when they feel that they've done enough now to justify where they are in life. But you've got it early because you're constantly being tested, whether it's on a board or whether it's in a courtroom. But let me show you the difference, though.

49:18Sadiq Khan:What is interesting, though, James, you must have come across this from, is what I've, there's a difference between being confident and being entitled.

49:26James O'Brien:Yes.

49:27Sadiq Khan:I've seen too many people who think they can do something and they clearly can't.

49:31James O'Brien:Yeah.

49:31Sadiq Khan:But they have this confidence, and I don't understand it, but they've got this confidence which is just so impressive.

49:37James O'Brien:Yeah, it is impressive.

49:38Sadiq Khan:And so I'm often mentoring women who are qualified for a job and won't apply because they think they're not good enough. And I'll interview men for a job, and you think, why the hell are you applying for this job? There's no way you're good enough for this job. But they've got this confidence. I'm not sure if it comes from school or parents or whatever, so I don't want to give the impression that I feel entitled to go for stuff that I'm not good enough to get. So I've not applied for stuff that I'm, you know, I think I'm out of my depth and stuff. But I think, you know, particularly young people, particularly people from a minority background and working class, class is a big issue.

50:11Working class kids often won't apply for stuff

50:14Sadiq Khan:because they think they can't speak that way or they can't talk a certain way. And just having that confidence is really important.

50:24James O'Brien:There comes now a period of your life that people will be familiar with. when you become an MP and you're on a path, again, precocious seems like an unfair word, but you move very fast. Under Gordon Brown, effectively, you become a senior politician. Just pick up on a couple of things because I don't want to let you go without talking about some of the very recent political developments. Two things occurred to me. The first is Angela Rayner said exactly what you said about being in the room where it happens and when she realized that she was as good as anybody was dealing with trade unionists in a different background to you but having um some quite a lot in common in some in some ways and nothing at all in others but just somehow knowing that you have every right to be in this room it's a wonderful lesson to learn and an even more important one to teach um just picking up a couple of things that i had forgotten or not been properly aware of would it be fair to say that When you voted to legalize same-sex marriage, that was actually one of the toughest responses you've received.

51:27Sadiq Khan:It was remarkable in the sense that I was getting hate within Tutin, hate from around the country from different sources. So I'm very proud of the diversity of Tutin. We've got really good Catholic churches, really good Catholic schools, and lots of Muslims. and so within Tutankhamen I was getting hate from the Catholic community and some of the Muslim community as well around the country I was getting hate from you know in 2005 when I was elected I was one of four MPs of Muslim faith and around the country people look to me for leadership you know I was the MP for Tutankhamen and I've always been quite clear but people would get in touch and I'd be asked to do events, fundraising events, whatever.

52:15Sadiq Khan:And I'm more than happy to do so as long as it doesn't take me from the core business of being the MP for Tutin. I was getting hate from around the country. And Imam from Bradford issued a fatwa against me. And a fatwa is like an injunction or a ruling and became most famous when Salman Rushdie had a fatwa against him from Iran, the idol in Iran. So there were death threats. my staff as an mp just couldn't believe some of the emails i was getting i mean i was having to give them pastoral advice about how to do with some of this uh stuff and it was from all sides um i had it in tooting um and so it was incredibly incredibly difficult but it's the right thing to do man i mean you know uh and so you know some people when i explained my stance um they got it some people haven't forgiven me 13 years later.

53:07Sadiq Khan:Really?

53:08James O'Brien:Yeah, yeah. And I think you've been more open about the psychological toll that that took on you than some of the other things that we've alluded to that you've been through. And you've explained very powerfully why you won't explore the impact.

53:20Sadiq Khan:On this same-sex marriage stuff, I think it's really important to say, look, because it goes to what we discussed earlier about solidarity. Look, just logically and rationally, how can your Monday be against racism on Tuesday be against sexism on Wednesday be against those who suffer discrimination because of their disability but on Thursday when it comes to the rights of those who have a same-sex relationship say I'm busy washing my hair it doesn't make sense to me in terms of equality or social justice but also you know I'd say in a respectful way to minority communities we we should be even more empathetic to others of discrimination because we feel it we go through every day and I think it's having that empathy of realizing that sometimes you don't choose you don't choose to be a Muslim I would say it's you know even if I even if I was in becomes Muslim light culturally Muslim right and similarly sexuality you know It's like me saying to you, James, well, actually, you know, oh, when you started to sleep with a man, you said, well, no, that's not what I do.

54:30Sadiq Khan:And why should the flip side be different? And that's why, you know, mixing in an echo chamber is not healthy. It's always good. And you do it every day. You actually care contrary views and you deliberately give space to people with a different view. And we should hear those because if you're not careful, you've got a one-dimensional view of life. And actually, I've learned a lot, you know, being in public life about every day is a school day for me.

54:54James O'Brien:you know and and and um 10 years as mayor come april uh again a period that people probably already know about um and and a sense that you're probably going to not run next time but you will refuse to confirm or deny that did well you did you ever have ambition i mean we don't have time to go back to the decision to become mayor but there's a sense that you've just sort of spotted rungs and thought that i could do that i'd like to do that did you ever have formalized ambitions did you want to be a cabinet minister did you want to be from bed no it's just it's

55:28Sadiq Khan:funny it's and even now i mean i genuinely hound and heart i'm telling you i don't know my next job because that's that's not how that's not i mean so there's a great stroke michael heseltine during the michael heseltine story for those that don't know so he was a you know um having lunch with julian critchley which the funny thing was you know i i grew up hating hills hating this guy right but during after 2016 this guy is just i mean he's he read in my mind he's been rehabilitated in terms of remain. It might have been like that all along. We were just too tribal to notice. Yeah, we were prejudiced.

56:00Sadiq Khan:You know, we're guilty of prejudice, James. You know what I mean? So it's one of life's ironies. And so it's a great story and you've just sort of given away the... But yeah, he's having lunch with somebody. And I'm going to change the story for my benefit. He's got a post-it note or an envelope. And he writes... Parts of his life is, you know, by 20 on he'd be a graduate from Oxford or wherever it was. By 30 on he'd be a millionaire. By 40, I want to be an MP. By 50, I want to be in a cabinet. By 60, Prime Minister. I may have got the details wrong.

56:29James O'Brien:Yeah, but that's pretty much the wrong.

56:30Sadiq Khan:He achieved all of it, except rather than Prime Minister, he was Deputy Prime Minister. Now, I have met, I've got to tell you this, people who have dreamt of being a Labour MP since they were 12, and you've met them as well. Of course. Right? Not me. Honestly, not me. And so I've been blessed in the sense of opportunities arise, and I grabbed them with both hands. I've also always tried to do more than one thing at a time not because I'm bored of one thing but because you know it stimulates me and I you know and I I think this thing in our head is a muscle that you know needs to be used a lot so I like to be stimulated so the great thing about being mayor is forget no two days are the same no two hours are the same it's so stimulating it's so exciting I learn something every day and that's why I love it and so but it could all be tomorrow an opportunity rises and I'll say, you know, fine.

57:24Sadiq Khan:I'll grow it with both hands. But, you know, I love being mayor. And I think there's a great American saying from an American politician called all politics is local. I want to just change that to all politics is personal. So I'm using this office I've got for personal reasons. So, you know, if I can help others not get asthma like I got by having clean air, I'll do that. If I can avoid other kids having the stigma of queuing up to get a free school token like I had to by having universal free school meals, I'll do it. If I can give other kids who've not got a big brother like I've got, mentors, haven't got youth clubs, I can provide youth clubs, I'll do it.

57:59Sadiq Khan:And I could go on. So, you know, it's a privilege I've got being the mayor. So I love being mayor. By the way, I love being the MP for Tooting. I love being a lawyer. I love being at school. I love being at university. I've been quite lucky in loving everything I've done. So I love it.

58:15James O'Brien:And that, normally I'd end there because it's a nice circle. There's a symmetry to what's gone on. But we're sitting here 24 hours after, or 20, probably six hours after it looked like the young barrister that you instructed, who went on to become prime minister, was probably on the way out of the job sooner rather than later. You're a lifelong Labour member, a member since you were 15. You've held high office for a long time. You were the most senior elected politician in the Labour movement, in the Labour Party. How big a mess are things now?

58:48Sadiq Khan:Well, this week has been a bad week for the Labour Party. It's been a bad week for the Labour government. And I got further and said it's been a bad week for our country. Because every minute, every day, when it focuses public servants in executive positions on serving our city or our country, is a minute and a day wasted. And I think it's self-indulgent, self-defeating to have this naval gazing. Look, I was privileged to be a member of parliament during the five years, 2005, 2010, when we were in government. And then I was in opposition from 2010 and 2016 as an MP. Those five years when we were in power were useful.

59:34Sadiq Khan:Those six years in opposition were wasted. I've been the mayor for 10 years now. That'll be 10 years very soon. Eight years with a conservative coalition, conservative government, two years with our government. we've achieved far more with the Labour government than we did with the Conservative government and I just say to my friends and they are my friends

59:57Sadiq Khan:who don't understand the rhythm of government understand the rhythm of government you cannot be popular every single day during the period of time when you hold office and that's the rhythm of government it's the rhythm of being in an executive position and so a bit of calm a bit of cool but also your job is to serve your constituents and the country and that's best served with the Labour government and the idea that divided parties win elections is for the birds do you

1:00:26James O'Brien:ever pick up the phone and say to people mind your neck in because you're just struck me now when you were talking because you kind of went into politician mode then after an hour of seeing the real you um you're a grundy you're a Labour party grandee Sadiq Khan

1:00:43Sadiq Khan:I mean, there have been many conversations I've had from the course of the last week. That is, that are conversations I shouldn't have had. I shouldn't need to be saying to colleagues to calm down. I shouldn't be, I shouldn't, I should not be having to say to colleagues, are you really replicating what the Tories did? I shouldn't be having to say to colleagues, look, do you really want a general election? I shouldn't be having to say to colleagues, this government was only elected last July. Last July, right? And by the way, the British public, the British public, we can talk about turnout, we can talk about seats won, but we can't escape the fact the British public chose a Labour Party led by Keir Starmer to be their prime minister on a five-year term.

1:01:32Sadiq Khan:That's just a constitutional fact and an observation of the general election last year. And so, you know, we criticised Theresa May when she, you know, decided, when she became leader without a general election. We criticized Johnson, criticized Truss, criticized Sunak. If we do this, how are we different? And by the way, you're driving people to vote reform because they will say, well, you're all the same, the mainstream parties. How is that in the interest of the country? And so, you know, I am angry because it's not to do with my friendship with Keir Starmer. I would say the same whoever was the Labour leader and stuff, I hope.

1:02:09Sadiq Khan:But I think it's an indulgence. I think it really is self-indulgent and self-defeating. But you can't help him.

1:02:14James O'Brien:Timings don't quite work, do they?

1:02:16Sadiq Khan:Well, listen, there are a variety of ways to help, right? Some people want to, you know, let's not beat about the bush, you know. Andy wants to stop being the mayor and become the MP. That's fine. That's noble. You know, he wants to do that. And, you know, that's fine. I don't want to be a member of parliament again. I've done that. I was in a member of parliament for 11 years. but you know i will help a labor government in whatever way i can and one of the ways i'm helping labor government is by showing how we deliver in our capital city you know we've shown you know in london at a time where you mentioned you know um most powerful politician for a period of time who's a labor party member when i when i won my election in 2016 with a great team our our victory in 2016 was the first time labor had won a big election since 2005 we'd lost scotland we'd lost london um and we people thought we couldn't win elections again we've won it once twice three times well similarly i think this government you know if they're allowed to get on with it you know could win again next time and and a final word actually because you've just

1:03:17James O'Brien:reminded me of something we've spoken about a lot and i sense a slight sea change that this is absolute online filth about our city uh the only home you've ever had the only home i've had since I was 19 years old and we've both lived in areas that are not necessarily posh or smart you know I've had my moments in the leafy suburbs but I'm smacking the Brentford massive now and I read or even up to and including the president of the United States of America describing a city that not only do I not recognize but that I know doesn't exist is there a slight sense that that oil tanker is being turned around now that reality is beginning to impose itself upon these largely racist tropes and online campaigns?

1:03:59Sadiq Khan:Well, let's deal with the reality, which is people who don't visit London, people who may live in other parts of the country or other parts of the globe, if they're only seeing one version of London, it could be a tweet from President Trump, it could be a speech from Vice President J.D. Vance, when they read that the best experts in the USA are saying there is civilization erasure in Europe and they point to London, when they watch news on YouTube from Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and others, I can understand why they believe this is the version of London. And that's why I think it's incumbent on those of us who know London to tell the alternative.

1:04:44Sadiq Khan:And so on an objective basis, you know, go to TripAdvisor, best city in the world for food. Go to Resonance, number one city in the world, number one city for tourism, number one city for students. According to objective evidence, on a per capita basis, last year we had the fewest homicide since records began in London. By the way, per capita, less than Paris, Berlin, Brussels, Rome, Milan, Madrid, Toronto, every state in the USA. And I could go on in terms of London. I mean, you know, this year will be, you know, pedestrianised Oxford Street. You know, our licensing laws are going to change. We have Harry Styles coming for 12 nights at Wembley Stadium, James.

1:05:25Sadiq Khan:I mean, and so I think, and also I think it's unpatriotic. Why would you want to talk down your capital city? And by the way, these people who talk about, you know, broken Britain or lawless London, it is the Gerald Ratner school of politics, right? And so why would you vote for the next general election or the next mayoral election? If they're saying that about, you know, and by the way, London, our capital city is not a piece of jewelry, nor is our country. And I think we should, not by the way, not for jingoistic, naive reasons, you know, But actually, look at the evidence. The evidence is last year, since records began, most Americans come in here to study.

1:06:01Sadiq Khan:Most Americans come in here to live. Most Americans come in here to invest, whether it's JPMorgan Chase, whether it's Goldman Sachs, whether it's Apple, whether it's Google. And so we must be doing something right. And one of the reasons why they attack us is we are the antithesis of what they believe in. They are nativist. They believe there's a clash of civilizations. They are populist. what are we we are diverse we are strong we are rich we are doing incredibly well why playing to their trap why indeed sadiq khan thank you it's been a pleasure thank you no thank

1:06:33James O'Brien:you

1:06:42Sadiq Khan:this has been a global player original production