Alex Moore | 8VC

0:00Alex Moore: Pitch, pitch, pass. Iterate it fast. Story beats data when the storyline's vast. Visions the ignition, but the numbers steer the ride. Conviction and precision watch investors collide. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Fundraising, a podcast where we interview early stage and late stage investors to help you as the first time fundraising founder raise your first round of capital. And today I have a very special guest, Alex Moore, partner at 8VC. I'm sure everybody listening has heard of 8VC, but Alex was also employee number one at Palantir. Is that correct? That is correct. So you have seen this game from both sides, which I think is obviously one of the more valuable pieces of feedback that founders like to hear.

0:45Let's dive in a little bit into 8VC and then we'll touch a little bit on yourself. but could it a high level breakdown what AVC is investing in, average check sizes? You're focused more on the defense side, but obviously AVC is broadly all across the board. Yeah. So AVC, we're actually having our 10-year anniversary here in party in a month. So we're a 10-year-old firm, started with sort of$400 million fund and then fund seven, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, we're at a billion and a half. We'll be launching like a side vehicle that's 600 million just for sort of special opportunities, but more like defense and hardware and all these re-industrialization type things too.

1:24So the firm has grown quite a bit. We do a lot. You know, I think there's just a lot of AI stuff right now, but our verticals in traditionally have been like defense, healthcare, what we call bio IT, logistics. And then I'd say like in general, just sort of like business software is however you would categorize that or sort of with a focus on automation and sort of work, I'd say, like industry workflows with an industry focus. But I think right now it's like kind of game on with AI and game on with a lot of the other reindustrialization stuff. But also just looking for great founders. You know, we've done a lot of crazy, weird stuff too that's just like these guys are cool, give them money.

2:02You know, like that simple too. Don't overthink it. Yeah. Does 8VC, and even I think you're a part of the Build program, is that right? Does 8VC still incubate companies in a sense as well? Yeah. I mean, I basically set up the build program. We incubate something like four or five companies a year. We've done 30 over the past 10 years, including Sironic is sort of the big winner. And then a bunch of other stuff. Happy to talk about that. But yeah, I think that's what actually entrepreneurs like about us is like I interview engineers too, right? Like I'm building a company too right now. Right.

2:33So, you know, we're on that as like the operator builder side, hands on. So I think we're not just the money. You're kind of like getting married to people here who help you build your business and that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So the interview, the podcast is a little rapid fire. So we'll go through some of these questions, but we'll start with a couple of questions that founders ask us to ask the VCs that we talked to. The first being, what is your favorite part about the job and what is your least favorite part about the job? Yeah. I mean, I think the favorite part about the job is like we're getting to see like across industries, all the new ideas.

3:06So you feel like, man, I'm kind of like ahead of the economy here, even like I'm seeing like the idea of something that will like hit like sort of the market in two or three years. So you feel like you're living in the future a bit. The challenging part is probably just like constant context switching. And it's like you have to sort of be a little ADD to keep up with that, which I think like great investors probably are like literally ADD or like the personality type fits the work. But that's like the negative. You're like, oh, man, I wish I could spend like three hours with that person and like go deeper on it.

3:39And like we have to get right to the point and be very like quick and then make right decisions. So those are the two things. Yeah, the context switching is brutal. And sometimes, well, I guess you get to dabble a little bit. You can go deep into some of these companies that you end up incubating with, which lets you maybe scratch both of those itches. Speaking of that, are there any, you mentioned AI. Are there any specific areas, problem sets, things that you are super excited about over the next year to five years? Yeah, I'd say like, I'd say like the firm is excited about all this forward facing stuff with AI around like where we've done a few AI robotic robotics looking deals or sort of AI and hardware.

4:19I'm personally excited by everything that's coming out of like, sort of what I would call like reindustrialization is specifically like sort of the SpaceX Tesla or sort of this kind of alumni, but also people who are just interested in that you don't need to be a SpaceX all star to get money from me, right. Right. But but those types of things where like people are looking at like power or, you know, these other other types of like big, big glut economy things where we're like, oh, yeah, like the economy can't scale if we don't have any power or you can make all these things, but you got to plug them in.

4:49So so like just big, chunky problems, I think, is what I'm interested in personally. And I'm also anything with like autonomy. Again, these are like sort of smart hardware systems, you know, that all of that stuff's cool right now. What a time to be doing what we're doing. It's always, it's one of those things. Everything is being turned over with AI and robotics, autonomy, all these things. It's an incredible time to be a founder as well. Yeah, I think it's like one of these things where it's like never been easier to start a company. And like there's there should be like more companies, more founders, more dollars going into everything.

5:21And like more results, right? Like more on the back end. So there's just more, more, more. That was not the case when I started in like startups 20 years ago, it was like impossible to raise money. And like, there was no cloud. And there I didn't there was like no iPhone until like three years after I got out of college. Right. So it was like, like really early, you had to build your own server rack. Like to build a software company, you had to have a server rack in your office, right? So like people don't understand that now. You just like spin up AWS and like spin up the AI and like you just, you can make it.

5:51It's like pretty awesome. Yeah. And maybe to the founders listening, coming from you, is it too late? Like I get founders all the time like, oh, it's already too saturated. There's already people doing everything. I feel like we're early. Isn't that exactly what you would say? Yeah, I think it's like inning one or whatever in terms of like the real stuff. And I just wouldn't be intimidated by like these big trillion dollar companies or whatever. It's like there's a million little problems all over this society that like need solving that are like really big and actually really important. Even you like in your local community, there's stuff.

6:23Right. So to know, I think like like tear that wall down and it's not there. It's just unlimited opportunity everywhere. Yeah. All right. Let's jump into the fundraising process. We break it up into three different parts. The first part are the founders that are out there. They're trying to bridge this gap. They have a really good idea. Maybe they're working at a top company or they're in university or some sort of academia program. They want to start a company. Fundraising scares them. What is that first step in finding either the right investor, reaching out to good investors? How have you seen the best founders navigate that very first part of the process?

6:59Yeah, I think you actually just practice by like doing your pitch to your like smart engineer friends. or like if you don't have smart engineer friends like roll up to your local college or you know you know call people and say hey i'd just like to show you something cool what do you think and i think like pitching engineers just who are like these very thoughtful analytical people first is a great testing ground because they'll sort of have ideas of like i don't get this i don't get that doesn't make sense very logical thinking and then from there i think that is a formative process which people under appreciate and are superficial with which is like creating a very deeply thought out deck the reason the deeply thought out deck is important is because you are demonstrating a worldview under which a problem is defined and a solution which you are building is defined against that and you're saying in five years the world's going to look like this this problem is small now but it gets really big and then my company solves it so it's like that that wayne gretzky thing don't go where the puck is now go where the puck is going so it's like we're going to go here and it intersects and you have this big company so i just think it's like the deck and then the engineers okay now like you know start hitting up investors and like you can cold email people you'll need to like know people you know you know what i mean like i think it is a little bit of that perseverance thing and like you know email 50 people on linkedin like two of them will respond cool okay that's practice now email another 50 and you'll get four to respond because your pitch is better like your way interact you're getting more sophisticated so it's just like getting used to like people just being busy it's not rejection they're just busy with the other thing.

8:29So like just kind of having that personality as like Woody Allen, not my favorite guy, but like he had a good quote where it's just 90 % of life is showing up. Just show up, just show up. Yep, keep showing up. And I think the more shots on goal you can have, the better. I want to touch a little bit on the quality piece because you mentioned, I feel like the quality of your pitch deck and the thoughtfulness that you can put into some of these things is almost more important now than ever. Just like we're seeing, and I'm sure you guys are seeing it, The amount of pitches that we are getting is multiplying, but the quality of those pitches is going down.

9:02And I think that if you can create something of quality, it will fight through the noise, whether the fund or firm is using AI to help them mitigate and get through pitch decks. Those surface like the high quality pitch decks will get through that barrier. But even just the eyeball test, we go through so many every week. We can tell which ones were made with that thoughtfulness and quality. And I like that you said cold is still in because a lot of founders, I think, don't realize that that is still a valid play if they can do it the right way. Yeah. And I think it's also this idea of iteration.

9:33So you like make a deck and you like pitch your engineer friends and you like iterate on it. It's like this living, breathing document. But it is also the most effective form of like communication quickly for deep ideas. And it is like a real art form. And there's a little bit of that like Steve Jobs thing. I'm like studying, like, do you have a spatial brain? Can you like put information and communicate to different types of other brains? Right. And like, you can't do that. Maybe you can you sell your product? But if you can do that, I'm like, he probably he or her can probably sell their product.

10:04They can probably recruit. They can do lots of things. They have a spatial brain that can put ideas where they're supposed to be and allow for a conversion to ideas. One thing that we always like to ask with the VCs is there seems to be a different thing that you're looking for on the pitch deck or the materials ahead of time versus that first meeting with the founder, which we kind of have in that second phase there. It's a first impression. Sometimes it might be the only time you actually talk to the investor. What are you looking for in those first meetings with the founder? And what is different than what you are looking for in the pitch deck or the materials that maybe lead up to that?

10:41The deck has idea in the in-person is like energy. Like if you don't, if you're not like lit on fire, Like, I'm just like looking at your face, studying you. Like, are they, are they like, you know, kind of animate, like, like not cartoonishly, but like, are they turned on, turned on by their own idea or not? Like, do you believe that? Why should I believe it? Right. Like, like I want, I'm looking for like belief in the own idea. And then if someone is like, you know, really sort of dedicated to their own idea, like all that will come through every time. Right. Like you can do that in half hour.

11:11Right. So I think it's just like I would just use the word like energy boiling it down to one thing. And like even if you're tired, you should still be like super turned on by like what you're doing. You know, I didn't I stayed up all night and I have energy. We're doing this. Right. So it's like that kind of thing. Like literally for me, it's just that. And so that's the I think it's an important piece. I think founders tend to go into some of these meetings thinking that it's like a school presentation where they're just presenting a pitch deck and like running line by line. What most VCs say, kind of what you're saying is it's kind of how you show up, maybe not what you show up with, although that's still important.

11:48But how much of that is, I guess, what balance goes from the thing that they are presenting versus maybe how they're presenting? Obviously, it does play into both. But do you have an idea of, could you have a bad idea, but the founder stands out and that's enough to get them going? How many times do you have a bad founder, but a really good idea? Yeah, two concepts here. like the first one is i would just say this concept of like founder idea match so if someone's like i've been doing this industry for 10 years and i like found this problem in the industry that i'm an expert in and then like i'm gonna go fix it i'm like technical on that industry uh that's exciting or two it could just be someone who's like insanely impressive and you're like this person will like pivot around and like figure something out and like i'll kind of just want to give them money because they're just so like special yeah but i i think actually it's more of the first is like 99.9 % of it is like probably like Travis from Uber, like someone like that.

12:43You just give him money and you're like, I don't even know what he's doing. We give him money. Who cares? This guy's going to murder everything. But like, normally it's like, you know, I studied this, I did like, or I worked at, I learned this industry. It's, and then like it matches. And like I did, you know, I've been studying this, this is who I am. It's sort of like the undertone of like what their pitches is like, this is who I am. And like this company is sort of an extension of that. Yeah. Is the opposite of that the red flag or are there any other mistakes or red flags that founders have when you're either meeting them for the first time or in the way that they're presenting some of these things?

13:16Yeah. Like, yeah, I hacked this at the hackathon and I just toss it together and like, you know, I just want to be a founder. But it's funny because like that doesn't work at APC, but it actually does work at Y Combinator because Y Combinator. So they're so accomplished at like helping hackers find their way and their identity. So I would like actually, if you're that person who's just like really young and smart, but you're like, I kind of don't know. And like, I just want to get mix it up. Go to YC. Like they're going to sort you out. And like their volume is for that, too. They're, you know, they're investing into hundreds of companies a year now.

13:49And I think they're very good at handling these people because you always hear like we brought them into YC and then we pivoted around three times. And then they like build this like cool thing that like the partners there like help them with. That's not how we do it at APC. We're just, you know, we're more like there's a smaller group and we want experts and we want founder batch and we want this and we want that. But like every firm, there's a firm for everyone. Like, you know, there's like, you know, whatever the theme is or there's even firms that have different personality types, too. So like you can find the firm.

14:17Like, don't worry. Like, just keep pushing through and meeting more people. Yeah, that's great advice. Are there any questions that founders should be asking during that initial meeting or process? not because you're looking at it as a green flag or something that you like that they ask, but so founders can take control of the process and don't feel like they're out of the control or being drug on. Yeah, I think it's like honesty on what you need help with. So you're like, I need help meeting more this industry expert, or I need help with hiring engineers, or what we don't want to see is I know everything and I'm good at everything and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

14:54And I'm like, you're probably not good at everything because no one is. so like i think a little bit of like guard comes down a little bit of vulnerability this is what i'm stuck on i just kind of do you guys know anyone that can like help me with you know like even you know whatever even basic things i mean the facts are we do know someone who can help you and it takes me like a minute to like email you and you get a coffee and they help you and so so like and it's showing like i like to work with the vc firm i ask for help i and then more or less the one-liner is intellectual honesty because i just don't have the time to deal with any bullshit or dynamics of like this person has an ego or stubborn.

15:29Like you're not like, why do you have the ego? Like, shouldn't I have the ego? Like I said, a Palantir with my friends out of college, like, why do you have the ego? And I'm not like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't have an ego. Maybe you shouldn't either. Right. So it's like, be vulnerable a little bit and ask for help a little bit. And, and, and just sort of like this kind of honesty thing, this intellectual honesty thing goes a long way. And I do. Yeah. I was going to say, I think it's also a good litmus test for the investors that you're talking to. Because I think good investors will see that as a strength, like you just mentioned.

15:59Bad investors might see it as a weakness and not be able to see through it as, oh, this founder hasn't figured it all out, but they're okay figuring it out and asking for help and doing the right things there. So it's a good question, not only because it's good to ask for help, but also good because it's a litmus test for the investors that you're talking to. Yeah. Like, are these money people who are like bankers who don't know anything about startups, or these like operator builder, like people who get in this shit with you, who help you out. Like you're testing them. Like, will this guy help me out on something?

16:29Like, I don't know if I want to work with him. You know, you're just creating a relationship where it's of abundance. Yeah. One of the things that we see founders with over and over again is they have these initial meetings with folks like yourself and then they go into kind of the meat of the fundraising process, which is herding cats. You're building FOMO. You're trying to build momentum. You're trying to push this thing over the finish line. Any advice for founders on ways that you've seen that go well? Every founder is trying to build that momentum in FOMO. Sometimes it falls flat on its face.

16:58How can founders walk that line without being overly desperate or too pushy? Yeah, I like because we also help our once we give money, we also help them with the next round. And like we have strategy sessions. So I like to just kind of set it up in like what I call like waves. So I like, you know, let's make a list of 30 VC firms or whatever, and let's put them in like waves of like eight to 10. And then I'm like email the first eight to 10 wave and I'm going to start meeting with them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, OK, we need to kind of spice this up. Then I'm going to do the second wave, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

17:31And then if I need the third wave, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then kind of like it will kind of compound and create a little bit of dynamics, which is what we want. But without like being overwhelmed with like 30 tickets at once. and then you're kind of like preferring your like first group the best and you're saying, hey, look, I'm meeting with you like in like first, you know, like you're special too. And then like that gives the investor feels good or special. And then as you go mature, then you can sort of say, hey, look, I have a few investors who were signed on earlier and, you know, I need a lead now.

18:01And it sort of sounds a little more mature to like the second, the later waves like, oh, this is like kind of coming together. I'm like, I need to rush. I need to like be on my game here. Yeah. So it's like a way I would call it like a slow boil. I'm not a big fan of like pressure tactics, but you can add a little bit of structure to it. You can have a estimated closing date. I'm starting the raise now. I'd like to close in the end of the second month or the end of the month. And that provides like what I'd call friendly pressure, which I think. Yeah. For the founders that maybe are in the fortunate position of picking their lead investor, maybe they have multiple offers at the table.

18:39Maybe it's that they have 100K, 200K left and there's a handful of investors that want in. Regardless, what's advice would you give to founders on picking the right VC, especially in the early stage? and then because you you've had such a great track record personally but also from the investing side what's a common mistake that you've seen founders make when maybe picking the wrong vc yeah i think like you have a few firms they're all interested like go have dinner with people and like you know if you drink wine have a glass of wine and talk about your childhood and make them talk about their childhood this is my secret i'll give it away um and then like you kind of know if you're a match because you're married to these people are these like ethical people or like does the person volunteer on the weekend like you can learn about people and you ask about it or do they have a hard childhood i think it's like is a resilient person people from immigrant backgrounds i extra points for that because you did something hard you learned a new language like i can't imagine going you know doing that myself so like like just kind of getting to know people and then so like i pick people who i like i've had dinner i know about their childhood i have idea of values is this a good person or not what and then what the one number one word is motivation are they like a mission driven person or like a money or like a negative, you know, whatever motivated person.

19:54And then the mistake is to optimize for valuation and to cut off everything I just said, because now you will get the money. You'll get like the superficial thing and, and cool. You own a little more equity, but now you have this person who's not like a mission or values aligned and you don't know anything about them because you didn't go to dinner and ask about their childhood, which is my secret. And you don't know what their motivation is. That gets very tricky later if things hit the fan are they like going to come in and help you are they going to kind of not so those are the things just human being things like the way you would select a friend or someone who you're dating and you go on a date you ask about the schooling you ask about the childhood or do you like this activities do you like that activity so you're just doing a little investor dating i think founders don't realize just how long this game is and how important it is to just like the people that are on your cap table let alone how helpful they can be every vc can be helpful, you do need to like them.

20:47And one thing I'll add on is that some VCs, they know that they can just throw out a valuation and undercut and they'll get maybe in or accepted, not because they're doing it in a negative way, but just as a founder, you should realize that sometimes it is a tactic for sure. Let's say they've closed the round and there's this point of time where switching from fundraising mode to founder mode can be hard. What are some of the best things that you've seen founders do right after they close, especially those early rounds for the first three to six months after? I think it's just all about talent.

21:19And like, I think because like, in my opinion, it's like the first 10 hires dictate the outcome of the company. It's like that severe. It's scary, right? So it's like being super thoughtful and like who you're hiring out of the gate and like, not just hiring to hire, but like getting like real experts or like real people who are like, and giving them a lot of equity. I'm always like to say like, like a cap table where the founders own like much less equity and the early employees own much more. Now it's almost like you have founders or like 10 partners, which is like, that was the secret to Palantir.

21:50It was like, we had like eight people who had like 1 % or whatever. And like some of them are still there, but like, we had like 10 people that we could rely on. And then one of them, I guess, but like, you know, who, who you could like would stay late. Like we were like all of us staying late because we all own a lot of it and we're like we care you know and then the next hundred people are like whoa like i kind of reference behavior from the first 10 and then oh cool now the 110 founders are 110 you know loyal loyal sort of like hard-working people so like i wouldn't bastardize that like if you own like over 30 of your company like that's a negative for me right if you are you jeff bezos you're not right like none of us are so i'd be like less on the founders equity, more on the early employee equity, and now you have partners and I can give you money now.

22:36Yeah. And that's going to help attract some of the top talent as well that maybe some of these other places cannot get because the best talent wants that ownership, not only from an equity standpoint, but from a problem solving standpoint and just that brain thinking too. Yeah. You don't want it to be like, you're working for me. You want it to be like, we are working together as partners. And I have a little more equity because I started it, But like you still have a lot and like you're, you know what I mean? Like you're, you kind of have a lot too, as much as possible. Right. And then there's limitations of course, to that, but like, that's the vibe.

23:09Yeah. You've packed a lot of information into a short amount of time here. The last thing we always like to end with is it's like halftime locker room talk. You guys, people are down right now. They're trying to raise capital. They're struggling with it. What's your, your halftime locker room speech to the founders right now that are maybe struggling to raise capital? Yeah. I mean, like the, just, I like to be a student of Silicon Valley. So to me, like going back and reading all these old blogs from like legendary founders from the eighties, you can like, you know, even like the Steve job or the Ellison or, and those are like, so, so examples, but even just like, you'll go like find these old articles or blogs of like how hard things were in the eighties for like the people who are like legends, even they were like, no one would give them money.

23:53Like Jeff Bezos, even like read about him. Right. like he his first seed round was a million dollars and he got that from 20 50k checks from like dentists and his like dad's friends no one would give this guy money this is jeff bezos the maybe one of the best ever you know and and and are you know undisputedly but like okay like he had a hard time it took him over a year he only got 50k at a time he was begging borrow borrowing stealing you know or whatever like like just just like doing hundreds of meetings and like if that guy did it like you could do it too right so it's like just read history study like people you know and like learn from each and like you'll see how much these guys struggle because there was no industry for them and there's an unlimited industry for you guys now and and and just understanding too i think it's like part of a rite of passage like you're supposed to sort of struggle and like feel crazy you're like why am i the only one who believes in this like shouldn't like more people like believe in what i'm doing and then you're just kind of like slowly converting the world, but it's more like one person at a time at the start.

24:57But then I think like the satisfaction of the payoff of it is, is, you know, extremely high. So I'm like, I like listen to podcasts. Even now I like study entrepreneurs. I'm like, I've been doing this 23 years. I'm like, I still have more to learn. Like, I don't know all this stuff, you know, and, and neither does anyone else kind of. Right. So like, you know, I think being like a student of the industry and like understanding there's not like this big difference between you or other people even if you didn't go to college even if you don't program you know whatever it is like i don't think that it's more like the will the human spirit and like being an optimist and believing in yourself and just kind of like never saying quit but also like getting solace and like oh my god like this successful person did this too like that's crazy i never knew about that and like and then you go through and you're like oh wait like hundreds of them like almost all of them right you know it's like all of them.

25:48Even the ones today that you think went really well, they probably did not. Yeah, I'll give you an antidote. So like Palantir got its first revenue check the fourth year in the company. So we had three years of no revenue and the first revenue check was for$100 ,000. So like three years Palantir, three years, no revenue. Imagine like us in your Stanford basement of the hospital, like me, I was going to work in a Stanford basement hospital, living in a garage like literally a guy's garage in his next door to the hospital and like not making this up like i have photos or whatever like in doc as documented like and and then like we're in the end of the third year and like the engineers are like why don't we have like revenue or whatever like what's going on like what like should i like quit or you know and we're like no no wait wait wait like we're gonna get there right so so like that's palantir and like you probably think it's this big powerful thing but like it started with these like just three years in a the pageable road they have the back office for stanford hospital and we're in the basement because we couldn't afford the regular level so i'm like going down under underground you know like like lights flickering yeah like it was not like super like like fun to be in that like physical space i remember i would do like walks around the hospital to like get like sun in my eyes because i'm like i think i'm like kind of like like this is like am i like a mental patient or like you know whatever so so like i just say like like everyone kind of goes through it it's a rite of passage you'll just make you stronger.

27:14And like every, a lot of people did it. And I hope that it's not quite that bad. I hope that it's not like three years, no revenue, basements, hospitals. Like I don't want you to go through that, but I did. And it's probably made me a little tougher now and a little more longevity. So, so, you know, those things can be quite informative for building your character and, and your, your, your strength for later, which, which could be, end up being quite useful for you as you run into other challenges in the lifetime of your business. Yeah. And last thing I'll say is it's mentioned earlier, why conviction is so important for you as a founder, because you got to ride through those years of no revenue and working out of basements for sure.

27:53I think that's right. I think also it's like fun because like, that's why I always say like, have like a buddy in the company, like a friend or just like your smartest friend, just hire them because you're like, at least we're suffering together. like and it's kind of funny and you like i don't know i remember just like going to like dutch or whatever the those bars around the thing and and we kind of like on the friday at like 10 p.m go have like a pitcher or a beer and we're like laugh at how like pathetic we feel you know like you kind of confident you know the confiding uh beer you know and you're like yeah because no one else knows what you're going through yeah like and like my girlfriend dumped me because she thinks i'm a loser and like there's some of that or and like you're probably more charming than i am and your spouse doesn't or your partner doesn't dump you but like we were all having things like this and just like people are just not believing and like the vcs were like not even taking our meat you know like like what are we doing you know so just all that stuff or and then like there's also but there's a confiding there's a bonding with the team even if the team is two people three people four you bond you bond this is a good thing it's it's it's nice to bond with other other people and you're not so you're not alone so so it's in fact it's not not as lonely as one could be you know so i so i so i i i some of my best memories are are you know back in those bars or in those basements just like laughing or just like even laughing at ourself with the ridiculousness of the situation we're in but like hey we're but also like that we're going to keep going and and uh you know you know and and that's part of the fun of the game and and i do hope actually it's easier now and not quite of this stuff and then the guys in the 80s you can't even imagine what they dealt with.

29:28So there's always like a history to industries and you study history and you go, wow, those were like the real pioneers. I have a lot of respect for, you know, 80s software people. Software didn't really even work back then. They had to sell it and like people don't know what they're buying. And, you know, so there's like pioneers that we can all admire and then examples that we can take solace in. Yeah. Alex, I appreciate the time today. I think that's a good place to end it on a high note. Thank you again for being on. There's a lot of information packed into here. I think folks will appreciate it.

29:59Thank you. And hopefully we'll talk again soon. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Cheers.