Max Ottignon: Everyone Wins

0:00I think what I'm excited about is the brands that are able to reframe sustainability as everybody wins. The mistake the industry has often made is to frame it as a compromise. The messaging can't be one of compromise. It can't be one of sacrifice. It has to be a positive, optimistic view of the world.

0:33Welcome to the Future in Sound podcast. I'm your host, Jen Wilson. This is a podcast where we discuss people, planet, and profit. In each episode, we'll learn from world-leading experts who can help us see the future we want and our role in it.

1:00This is episode 44. Everyone wins.

1:08Max Arignon is the co-founder of Ragged Edge, a branding agency based in London, both clients around the world. It's an agency that refuses to settle for average and has recently celebrated its 18th birthday. Max, welcome to the Future in Sound podcast. Thanks for having me.

1:33Why don't we start with a bit of your background, Max? Can you tell us a bit about what led you to co-found Regged Edge? Yeah. So when I started my career back in the early 2000s, I was working for an ad agency and I entered thinking that I was going to join this sort of incredibly glamorous, incredibly creative environment. and it couldn't have been more opposite like it was very bureaucratic it was slow um I wasn't even allowed to talk to the creative people who were on another floor um and that kind of put me off um and I ended up leaving with no job to go to which was probably pretty stupid but gives you a sense of how desperate I was to get out of there and everything I've done since has been like a reaction to that and so I still felt like I had something to contribute in the creative industry but it felt to me that advertising which is all about like campaigns and communication was kind of nothing without clarity about the underlying brand so a clear idea of what the business was for and what the point of it was and how you're going to tell that story and then also trying to create a an agency that was a nice place to work and was fulfilling and rewarding and was based on like delivering creative excellence rather than just like efficiency which is what the sort of big network agencies tended to do right i really hear that you know focusing on what businesses are for and the point of businesses is at the core of what you stood to create is that right yeah absolutely like advertising if you don't if you're not clear on that stuff advertising can be really short term and really empty and thus ineffective in the long term whereas i think what really excited me with brand was you can help companies and particularly like founders really clarify what they're trying to do and you can make an impact not just on what the brand looks like but on the whole business like internally in terms of culture in terms of product development, and then in terms of how it frames what it's trying to do to the outside world.

3:50And Rigged Edge talks about building brands that challenge the status quo. I'm really interested in what does that look like for you? Yeah, well, I think, again, something I learned in my short-lived advertising career is that most people don't care about brands. Most brands, most advertising, most communication gets ignored. and even if it gets noticed it probably gets forgotten pretty quickly so if you're going to create a brand that people notice and brands get noticed tend to get remembered and brands that get remembered tend to get chosen so like first thing you have to do is get noticed to do that you have to figure out a way to show up in a way that's different to everybody else so essentially you have to stand out and in order to do that you have to make decisions that might feel a little bit scary, a little bit counterintuitive sometimes.

4:45But if they're made for the right reasons and executed in the right way, can be incredibly effective. And most really strong brands have at some point in their lifespan made those difficult decisions. And so the whole point of Ragged Edge is to help businesses do that in a way that's really strategic and really effective. sounds like there's a bit of a therapist slash branding agency in your work max there is a lot of that yes helping your clients to understand their fears and maybe overcome them with a bit of bravery that's it yeah that's a huge part of it yeah and i'm wondering and just obviously rico being quite focused on sustainability and ethics hearing about being noticed and remembered and ultimately chosen, but with a long-term strategy.

5:32I'm just wondering, when you help clients to navigate this kind of thinking, how does that tie into sustainability and ethics? Good question. And obviously, it very much depends on the brand and the organization. I think we generally are looking for businesses that are looking to drive some sort of change in the world. And we like companies that are doing that for good reason. and for positive reasons. And I think one of the best experiences I've had at Ragged Edge and one of the ones that really sort of helped launch us as a business, particularly amongst the sort of fast growth startup community in the earlier days, was working with clean energy companies, so BOL, which had a bit of a notorious end, so the consumer energy startup.

6:20But what was amazing about that was learning how to frame a proposition that had sustainability at the heart. So the whole point of Bulb was they were trying to deliver clean energy and get people using clean energy at scale. The way to do that was they needed to sort of break into the big six of the energy companies. And I think at the time, the traditional way of doing that would be to really go big on their green credentials. And you could imagine a world in which everything they said was about going green and that you could imagine that the brand color would be green and the whole messaging would be really focused on that.

7:06I think what they were smart enough to realize and also we were part of at the time was that was never going to be more than a niche play and it would attract people that are really, you know, wanted, already wanted to be more sustainable. But their vision was much bigger than that. And I think lots of the sort of companies that are really going to make a difference in terms of climate tech and sustainability need to have, need to go beyond those kind of early adopters. And so what Bold did really cleverly was they used the clean energy and the sustainability as a proof point, but the main message was just as much about simplicity and saving money.

7:52And the overarching tone and idea of the brand, we had this idea that drove everything was positive energy and so it was just this in this sort of category where you know people like british gas and n power and people like that are just like relentlessly like negative boring almost like attacks behave almost like attacks like we we managed to reframe bulb as this like force of positivity and as i say there was a you know it didn't end particularly well for sort of reasons that were largely out of their control but But in the time between them founding, they were the fastest growing, regularly the fastest growing company in Europe and certainly the fastest growing consumer energy brand.

8:34And they did it not just by focusing on sustainability, but that sustainability was sort of everywhere, but kind of beneath the surface. It's really interesting to hear that story because I think what we're seeing at the moment, you know, Rico working with private equity investors who have seen the zeitgeist shift to a certain extent on sustainability. So going from, you know, sustainability is at the core of everything we do to almost this green hushing phenomenon where investors and in some cases portfolio companies that are operating more heavily in North America or the United States are doing decarbonization work but not really speaking about it.

9:18and one of the things that's really interesting about the example that you just shared is that sustainability wasn't the whole focus of the message it was part of it but really staying focused on saving customers money had to be integral to the message and I'm just wondering if you have any you know comments given that a lot of our clients are navigating this almost black and white phenomena of we talk about it or we don't. Is there a middle way that can help to increase competitive advantage, get noticed, but maybe not two sides necessarily? That's a real challenge at the moment, isn't it? And particularly because so much of this stuff has become so politicized as well and like ludicrously politicized.

10:05And so I think most people, if you ask them, like they want to make it, want to be able to make a difference and they want to make, be able to make choices that are good for the environment. But most people, or at least the majority of people, you know, care about the environment, are concerned about climate challenges, and you want to make a difference. But on a day-to-day basis, most people are short-term and selfish. And when you actually look at their choices, they make, certainly on a day-to-day basis, they tend to, yeah, be focused on, is this going to make my life easier? Is it going to make life better in the short term will it save any money is it better than the comparatively priced products over there like regardless of green credentials or sustainability credentials so you kind of have to win that argument first and you have to present a better solution to the consumer and then you can use the the sustainability stuff as a reason to believe and as something that gives that credibility and it gives it that additional weight.

11:10I think relying on sustainability as the main message can sometimes limit things because people will often, if you're relying on that as your primary message, people might perceive that as, well, I'm going to have to make a compromise elsewhere. And so I think that is probably the challenge of so much of the messaging around sustainability, isn't it, as it's often been around compromise. and people don't like to compromise right and and when you are talking to clients say well let's let's have a let's imagine a scenario you're talking to a client a secondary message is sustainability related but the core message is you know we're going to improve your cyber security or we're you know um and we're going to do it with less energy or we're going to you know you can imagine this uh primary and secondary message and they're a little tentative about the secondary message and they sort of well there's all this noise and these headlines and you know governments aren't as much a fan of sustainability these days like how what would you say to that executive who's making the call of how to communicate they've communicated sustainability in the past they're now sort of wondering ah is this should we continue with this like how would you coach a client who's in that situation it's a great question um what we've always believed and i and all the research that i've ever done and been exposed to in branding is that you have to focus on what makes you different because that's the thing that's going to get you noticed and remembered and so if the sustainability part of your products and your offer is something that can help differentiate you that's going to be a huge advantage even if it may essentially if framed in the wrong way like alienate a portion of of people it's also going to help you get noticed by the right people um but i think it's how you how you frame it and how you position it and obviously making that the headline and shouting about it and becoming a brand that is about sustainability carries with it certain subtext and at the moment i can understand And I can kind of understand why people might shy away from that.

13:25But if it is a credible reason to believe, then I think it kind of makes that a bit harder to argue against, doesn't it?

13:36Hey, it's Jen. I just wanted to take a quick moment to let you know a bit about RICO and what we do. We're a tech-enabled advisory firm that helps private market investors and companies measure sustainability metrics using our software platform. We also help you to set targets and focus your efforts on sustainability areas that really matter for your business. And finally, we help clients to translate all of this work into your core value creation strategy or your business model. Check us out at re.co.com to get in touch. All right, now back to our conversation. we can't have this conversation without bringing in our very own creative director harriet richardson the woman behind naming rico the woman who does all of our branding and makes us i'm personally i'm a bit biased so i think makes us look fantastic harriet is joining me to help guide this conversation can i hand it over to you harriet just i'm really interested to you know get Max's point of view on the future and how we think about the future and branding.

14:44Yes, I'm bursting. There's so many issues I have. And I think it's been so insightful already, because I love how you talk about being realistic in what people are going to listen to and identify with, you know, over sort of, yes, you can have this like beautiful message. But if if something's cheaper or something's more convenient, they're probably going to do that. And I find your, yeah, the fact that you're sort of based in realism really refreshing. I wonder, basically, my question is how? And I know that's a big one, but I obviously have experience in working with clients and in branding.

15:24And I just wonder if you'd be kind enough to share a little bit more about how you approach future proofing a brand, not just visually, but socially and environmentally too. Sorry, I know that's quite a big question. Yeah, it's a big question. How do we future proof it? Businesses and products are complex, but people respond to simplicity. and so what we are always looking to do is distill complexity into a really like simple clear single-minded idea and then bring that to bring that to life in the brand in a way that has got flex and nuance so every brand has to work across loads and loads of different channels and so you need to optimize the brands to work across things like comms and campaigns through to more like performance messaging through to how do you speak to investors to how do you speak to interns like employees and things like that so but also businesses change particularly growth businesses and particularly in this sort of sector that we're talking about change very quickly and so you have to be thinking about the future and what you want to achieve and that you need to build something that's that's going to be true to that future goal as much as it is to right now.

16:47And I think, again, in this sort of space, the other thing that's changing very quickly is culture and technology as well. So you have to be really aware of where you believe this is going to go and be thinking about the future as much as you are about the present. That discipline is the whole game. And it's about how can we create something and then really commit to it and basically brand we always say that like brand is really a commitment yeah and you have to really believe it in your heart because you're gonna have to live it over time yeah I think that's exactly right and one of the biggest learnings I had when I started in design was clients often I suppose think that you're getting just a logo or just a color palette or you know like they just want the sort of um brand guidelines but it's so much more emotional than that I think it's so much more to do with longevity and you know what where do you want to be in five or ten years and will it last and I think um in my opinion good design is you know timeless and what that means I suppose with the rise like you said of AI and culture change and it's so fast I think it's a really interesting space to be in but I think ragged edge seemed to be at the front of that so it's very exciting and I wonder as well about and I know we've spoken about this you know um offline when we met, but I wonder what your opinion is of the role that designers play, I suppose, in responsibility to creating sustainable design and into guiding clients into those decisions.

18:23Because I suppose, you know, there's really only so much we can do as, you know, you are being sort of almost employed, I suppose, by the client to a degree. So what sort of responsibility do you feel personally and as a brand to you know help guide projects into a more sustainable space it is hard isn't it and um it's easy to be idealistic about this stuff until you get confronted with the reality uh and as an agency or as a freelancer or somebody working for a branding company or in a bigger company you do have to work with the reality uh not the way that you wish the world was i think we like at ragged edge just because we've been around a bit and we've built a pretty good reputation we're able to i think the first decision comes in who you work with and we are able and are very very intentional about like choosing clients um and one of the reason one of the main criteria for that is are they talking the talk or are they walking the walk um and for a brand like before you even get into like the ethical nature of it for a brand to be effective there needs to be some substance to it um it can't just be bullshit and so we're always looking for for that and of course you know for us it's about we want to work with people that like every like every most people in this space anyway uh want to do which is you want to work for people that are going to create some sort of positive outcome for the world once you find those people it's much easier because you've got you're aligned um and so the real challenge um and it's i think it's often unwinnable sadly um is when you're you're working for somebody who doesn't believe in those things like as a designer you're only going to be able to have a limited in impact on those people um is the sad fact of it i think and what you often and what often I believe ends up happening is you might have an impact in that you can change the way they communicate but not the way they behave right and do you think you can tell quite quickly when you meet someone whether or not what's your meter like when you um meet I think it's got pretty my bullshit radar has got pretty pretty decent over that I've done this for a while now it's trusting your gut isn't it I think we can apply that to every facet of life I also think that there's something here about purpose makes branding so much more clear and durable it's really interesting to listen to this and Harriet great questions you know Max I think that we have seen some flip-flops on branding as I said earlier you know sustainability is the most important thing now we're not talking about it there's something here about if it truly is a purpose that's embedded in the organization then you're more likely to have a durable brand that sort of has buy-in from across the organization.

21:30Yes, you'll change the way you communicate to a certain extent, but flip-flopping will be more difficult if you're dealing with a company that sort of has this clear purpose that is about organizing how they operate, not just a tagline or something that's pasted on the wall of corporate. Yeah, and I think what we've seen, what we've certainly seen in the past decade is all sorts of a tremendous amount of cynicism and jumping on bandwagons to exploit the thing that is popular now and you know there was a point at which that was sustainability wasn't there and then obviously uh particularly in the us there was a bit of a backlash to that for me and what was most disappointing was all the tech ceos uh just like turning on a dime and just like the breathtaking cynicism of that but those companies never believed it yeah and it was always a formative and it was always something they did because they felt like they had to whether that was to retain the best to get the best talent or to convince consumers or get the right press or whatever but the companies that are really walking the walk it comes through in everything they do and it starts right at the top and for me that's always the the real difference yeah it's so interesting to think about the last decade in you know with that lens and that brings me to ask um if you could sort of see any shift happen in the next five or ten years in branding and the branding industry around sustainability and responsibility what would you like that to be I think what I'm excited about is the brands that are able to reframe sustainability as everybody wins.

23:18And I think the mistake the industry has often made is to frame it as a compromise. We've been working recently with this really inspiring company out in the US called Palmetto, which is a consumer clean tech company. company and one of the things they do is like help uh consumers like install like solar and we had some amazing uh conversations with them and the ceo his point of view was i've been working in this industry for a long long time the messaging doesn't work the messaging of compromise doesn't work we have to do something fundamentally different here if we're gonna get people to change behaviors and for him and for this brand um armetto like the the idea was you can have it all uh and actually like clean energy means you don't have to make a compromise it's it will end up saving you money uh it will mean you can you know plug in all of your devices at once um and it won't cost the earth uh in terms of um financially or you know in terms of impact on the environment.

24:30And so just completely flipping that message into one of abundance, into one of positivity, giving people permission to have everything. We built the whole brand on that in this case in Palmetto. But I think that's something that I think the whole industry should be doing and trying to frame everything to do with sustainability into a win-win-win for everybody. And if we can find clever ways of doing that as an industry, I think we'll be in a really good place. it can't be one of compromise it can't be one of sacrifice it has to be a positive optimistic view of the world it's amazing when you say it like that actually because i just can't believe that we've ever thought of it as a massive sacrifice to live in it's a world that's more sustainable and we can you know have our cake and eat it i think it's completely possible from um you know even the innovation we've seen in the last like five or ten years and And it's so wonderful to know that branding is grounded in positivity.

25:26Why should it not be? I think that positivity and I think also just honesty where there are trade-offs. I mean, being really positive and win-win-win where we can. And then also making sure that we're not saying that it's a win-win-win-win. It's not, right? There are limitations for sure, Max. You're not saying that there's no carbon emissions growing with AI. It's more just the focus would be, we're looking to have the lowest carbon AI service. And here's the positive side kind of thing, because you need AI to run your business or whatever. It's sort of focusing where there are win-wins. Yes.

26:10And obviously strategies need to acknowledge trade-offs, but that's not what we lead with. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And obviously, this isn't about glossing over negatives. But in order to get people to change behaviors, it is really hard to do that if you're asking them to make compromises. And we've seen that time and time again for everything, like small things, like recycling, like how hard it is to make that work. It's really hard to get people to change behaviors if you're asking them to make compromises. So brands and businesses have to figure out ways where it isn't a compromise.

26:46And certainly, you know, technology is, at least in lots of different ways, and I appreciate, you know, AI is in some respects, actually not doing that, but lots of technology is. And I think it's just a lot of it is about framing. yeah completely um i have one more question and i've been so excited to get to this one because it is are there any particular books that you've read that have shaped your thinking in regards to creativity sustainability romantic fiction whatever you want um the books that i really enjoy like we work a lot in in tech and so um i'm always the books that i really enjoy are the ones that shine a light on the decisions that are really being made there.

27:35And there were a lot of inside accounts like WeWork and Uber and things like that. That book's super pumped. I really, really enjoyed. Because I think it exposes the cynicism at the heart of this stuff and what we're up against. And also the haphazardness with which so many of these decisions are made. There's a, what's it called? The one that I'm reading at the moment, I've forgotten the name, but about the story about where I used to work. I can't remember the actual title. It's by somebody that used to work at Facebook. Careless People, it's called. And it is fantastic because it just shows you what we're up against.

28:21And it shows that kind of level of cynicism at the heart of tech. but it also to me shows what the opportunity is as well which is the opposite of that and um i find that you know both quite terrifying but also quite inspiring yeah i mean what you know terrified me about that book was i mean so many obviously so many parts of it and it's like as terrible as you imagine and then double it um but i thought at the core of you know you always hope that the core of these massive companies there's some sort of professionalism yes and to him isn't that and it is just you know like a frat house of you know boys running around doing whatever they want I think that's the the most terrifying thing about that book it really is um and that is you know I have had that experience with you know big tech generally but what is also interesting is like it's kind of just that isn't a plan and I think what that means is there is an opportunity to help businesses like that form a plan and when you can do that and really cut through and i'm not saying we've done it on anything on the scale of like facebook no matter but when we have done that with businesses and help businesses like figure out okay this is the point of this business this is what we really can change this is how we can make an impact it's very fulfilling and very rewarding and hopefully like has a net positive for humanity yeah a real takeaway for me max is the importance of you know purpose and developing a strong brand so that we're walking the walk not just talking the talk yeah the need for bravery you know that actually it's so easy to follow the herd but to have a strong brand you need to really point out what's different and be different and that requires a certain amount of authenticity and bravery and then finally this piece around you know there really is an opportunity to look for how can our business have an offering where everybody wins and if we have this view of like we're walking the walk and talking the talk then it's sort of a purpose-led everybody wins so really appreciate the insights you've shared with us Max I don't know Harriet if you had any other reflections um I mean it's been an inspiring conversation and I'm looking forward to the ragged Edge meta collab in the future.

30:48Thank you, Max. This has been really, really insightful. Thank you for joining us, Max. Thanks for having me.

31:00The Future in Sound podcast is written and hosted by Jen Wilson and produced by Chris Attaway. This podcast is brought to you by Ricoh, a tech-powered advisory company helping private market investors pursue sustainability objectives and value creation in tandem. If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to tell a friend about it. And if you have a moment to rate us in your podcast app, we'd really appreciate it. Until next time, thanks for listening.