Former NZ Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern: How to Lead with Compassion When Everything’s on Fire

0:14Today on the podcast, we're joined by Jacinda Ardern, former Prime Minister of New Zealand and the world's youngest ever female head of government. As PM, Jacinda became famous worldwide for her unique leadership style, leading with compassion and empathy. A different kind of power, as she puts it. Jacinda's time in office was marked by her handling of major crises. She rushed through gun control laws within weeks of the Christchurch mosque attack. When COVID hit, Jacinda moved decisively to a rapid lockdown, something that would later prove divisive. In the midst of all that, Ardern was the second ever elected leader to give birth while in office.

0:52This is a conversation for anyone who wants to lead with kindness and learn how to deal with high-pressure situations. We also explore how the good guys can take power around the world.

1:05Welcome to Giant Ideas, Jacinda. Thank you very much for having me. I guess let's start with leadership. Do you have a particular philosophy of leadership that you've developed?

1:14Jacinda Ardern:Yeah, I mean, I think had you asked me, you know, four years ago or three years ago, I might not have articulated it in the same way that I would now. And in part, it's because so much about the way I chose to lead felt very intuitive to me and also felt very common sense. But over the years, observing some other particularly prominent leadership styles and finding increasingly an interest in this idea of empathetic leadership within a political frame, it's become clearer to me that, yeah, actually I feel very clear-eyed about the idea and the value of empathetic leadership in politics, which we don't talk about that much.

1:59Jacinda Ardern:There's a bit of it in the private sector, a bit of it from the idea of running large companies, but less so in the political frame. So tell us about it. What is empathetic leadership? So the way that I would describe it is, of course, values-based leadership, the idea of building consensus, the importance of transparency, the importance of bringing people with you in your decision making. and of course the empathy element is not the ability necessarily on every occasion to put yourself in someone's shoes but having that endeavour of being mindful constantly of the impact of decision making and working hard to take a viewpoint that takes into account the perspective of those you're governing on behalf of and compassion, yeah, simply put.

2:56Okay, resonates with us. A giant one of our values is compassionate meritocracy. which we borrowed from McKinsey. So we definitely get what you mean. Others would be sceptical perhaps. What do you think are some of the most common misconceptions about empathetic leadership?

3:10Jacinda Ardern:That it is inconsistent with the idea of strength or courage and that it is in some ways inconsistent with political leadership because if strength is absent, which I would argue it's not when you're an empathetic leader, But if strength is absent, people won't have confidence in you. And my argument is that you can be both a compassionate leader and a strong leader. That actually, by definition, if you are in politics, you have a level of resilience. And in fact, when you are a compassionate leader, you're very motivated by what's brought you into politics. And that can actually make you quite clear-eyed.

3:57Jacinda Ardern:So counter this idea of being perhaps dithering or flaky, which is sometimes also a misconception, I find the opposite to be the case. We certainly agree with that. But why do you think arguably there is a lack of empathetic leadership in politics today? A couple of reasons. And I'd say there's two categories. And again, I'm always wary of talking too much in anecdote or observation. But unfortunately, there's not a lot of data for us in this space when it comes to either what voters are seeking or the views of politicians in this area. I'm actually doing a little bit of work with Oxford to try and build a bit more rigor as much as I can around this idea.

4:38Jacinda Ardern:But the two issues or categories I would put people into. One, I would say there is a group of politicians who would be inclined to lead in this way. but for the fact that they're often in systems where they're told that a display of too much human emotion or too much compassion means they were unlikely to be successful. Voters won't vote for that. You need to display yourself to be a bit more of a, excuse the turn of phrase, but it's most commonly put, strong man style of leadership. So there's that group who are probably masking what intuitively they consider to be the type of leadership they'd like to demonstrate.

5:17Jacinda Ardern:And the sinker group is actually those who, again, they quite comfortably co-opt it because they believe that's the most successful way to manage and lead. Do you think that's harder for women, given the sort of strongman archetype? I do think that, I mean, you know, one of my arguments has always been that we should first and foremost consider the values in leadership that we want to prioritise, that we consider most important to us, and that regardless of gender, we should then have an expectation that we see those visibly in leadership. I often wonder why what we seek in leaders is so different to what we teach our kids.

5:58Jacinda Ardern:And is that because we've been kind of, over time, we've climatised the idea that curiosity and kindness just aren't things you get in politics, so therefore why seek it? Why expect it? but in my mind if we value those those characteristics we shouldn't gender them we shouldn't expect them solely to be held by women or be absent from from male leadership we should just expect them from leaders generally they should be universal they should be universal I do think I do wonder however again no data behind this I do wonder if we more often equate ideas of compassion and kindness with women and i do wonder sometimes if that's why that idea of the strength element being absent might might be part of the mix as well when you talked about the leaders we seek i think that's interesting because i think these days people are so skeptical about politicians that there is not a sort of an expectation that these people are going to be role models and actually there's a sort of focus on okay what is what outcomes concretely can they deliver for me but i kind of think actually human beings crave leadership people want to be led by people that they respect and they can follow.

7:07Did you find it? I agree.

7:09Jacinda Ardern:And it's really interesting. I mean, there's, you know, a bit of a discussion out there. You know, the book Abundance is, I think, raised a really interesting point around what it is we need to be doing on behalf of voters. The way I would express. Abundance by Ezra Klein. Yes. The way I would express it is delivery. And I think they are right that for lots of reasons, delivery has probably over the years become harder. I think at the same time that people's expectations have increased and their expectations around the speed at which you can shift the dial on some really intransigent and difficult issues has increased.

7:48Jacinda Ardern:And so that is certainly something that politicians are experiencing and it is something that rightly voters are demanding. But I think we shouldn't diminish at the same time that it's not just what we do, it's how we do it. And that's really interesting. There are some surveys that show us, for instance, that voters would be willing to forgo a certain amount of delivery in favour of integrity. So if in the hierarchy of what they're seeking in leadership, integrity is still way at the top of that list, then that's something interesting to be explored. I think you're right, though. People's expectations now are very low.

8:27Because, I mean, just taking your example as a leader, I don't know the ins and outs of what happened in New Zealand. I'm sure you delivered loads of things, so then we're going to talk about the crises you managed. But certainly your legacy globally, the role model in you was your legacy and will be your legacy as a leader globally, far more than delivery. But specifically in New Zealand, would you say the same thing? Or do you think actually what mattered most about your time as Prime Minister was the tangible delivery?

8:51Jacinda Ardern:Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I will openly say that I felt we were a government that did a lot of stuff, you know. and you know but we at the same time came in with a very big agenda and one of the struggles was part of that agenda for instance climate change child poverty and inequality housing these are all very significant issues that you're not going to shift the dial in a three or five years we made inroads for sure housing was particularly hard and that's where I think you know his client's discussion about this is an issue is really interesting because the government's got some levers but not all of them particularly if it's a failure in your residential and housing market.

9:36Jacinda Ardern:So whilst we did a lot are those the things that necessarily people would remember? Were they the things that they felt had the most immediate impact on their lives? It would be up to them to say but I'd say that probably they remember other things about our time in us. As proud as I am about our legacy I think they will remember other things. Well zooming into your time in office, you dealt with some pretty serious crises. The Christchurch massacre where 51 Muslims were killed by a white supremacist and, of course, COVID. Those are major, major crises. How did you deal with them? How did you approach those crises?

10:10How did you stay calm?

10:12Jacinda Ardern:You know, I think that, you know, with hindsight, and I was, you know, mulling over this a little bit in the process of writing my book. If you're someone who talks about ideas like imposter syndrome, there's a sense that maybe that has a consistency, that that's kind of something that maybe might peak in the hard times. But actually I found the opposite to be true. I found that during crisis you are so singularly focused on the role that you need to play, on the decisions that need to be taken, on the importance of being there for victims and others, that notions of a confidence gap or imposter syndrome just fade into the background.

11:01Jacinda Ardern:They become almost indulgent. And so what I found with any crisis is that there's an immediacy there that really sometimes can bring out the strengths that you might... You lock in and I'm someone that has a tendency to openly get into the weeds. And in a crisis, being across everything can aid your response. You've always got to be measured about it, but it can actually aid your response. My instinct was always to be proximate to the crisis and that will give you insights into what's needed. Lead from the front. Lead from the front. And that sounds obvious, but I do think in this day and age there is, particularly in crisis, because there are unpredictable situations, you can often receive advice to not have that proximity, to step back a bit, to give it time.

12:01Jacinda Ardern:What do you mean by proximity? I mean, for example, the Christchurch massacre, you were physically there. My instinct was to be there straight away. Unfortunately, it was such an unfolding situation that for security reasons, and you also need to balance it with not getting in the way. So the earliest I could get down was the next day. And it wasn't just about being in Christchurch. It was about being amongst those who had been affected. And by doing so, I knew on paper that, of course, burial rights were incredibly important. but being there, hearing from people who, in some cases, a twin brother, how do you explain to a twin brother that it's going to take time to identify through bureaucracy their loved one before they can be released?

12:53Jacinda Ardern:Being proximate to it gave us the extra understanding of why that needed all of our efforts to release everyone as quickly as we could. And so being proximate just gives you that extra, that extra insight of what's needed on the ground. Sounds harrowing. Yeah. Were there some rituals or some people or some beliefs that you fell back on to kind of give you the strength during that time of challenge? Certainly loved ones. I think probably if I think about my background, and I was raised in a religious household but left that in my early 20s. What I think it left behind, though, was a deep respect for other people's faith.

13:46Jacinda Ardern:And I could see just the enormous courage that people were showing and what was carrying them through, and I had some understanding of that. so I felt that playing out but in terms of my own well-being I didn't pay too much attention to that for quite some time I know it's hard to maybe extrapolate from such a specific situation but what advice would you give to other leaders trying to stay calm in a crisis I for the most part found that the trick is trying to just find the sometimes blurry line between allowing yourself to be human whilst also remembering that people are relying on you to still do a job.

14:41Jacinda Ardern:And I think sometimes we lean, as leaders in the public eye, we lean pretty heavily into the second. We know we've got a job to do. To a certain degree, you've got to remain stoic for that. But I think we should still allow ourselves to be human. I think we live in an era where, in a time where it's pretty easy to dehumanise people in politics for lots of reasons, pretty easy to dehumanise one another full stop. But reminding people from time to time that, you know, you are going to feel things deeply. We need that. We need that from our leaders. Because that's the kind of thing that motivates you to change things.

15:20On COVID, Jacinda, we're going through in the UK the big COVID inquiry and the conclusion seemed to be basically the apparatus of state wasn't prepared, but then the individual leaders just didn't grip it quickly enough. You famously gripped it very quickly, one of the quickest in the world. Rightly or wrongly, you put in place a lockdown early, which seemed to have benefited New Zealand greatly. Talk us through that process and how you realised, okay, this is incredibly serious. This is the real deal. This is the kind of the crisis that all leaders have to get through. How did you go through that?

15:51How did you realize it was important? And then sort of what was the decision-making process to make that big call to lockdown early?

15:58Jacinda Ardern:Well, firstly, I'd say I would never wish the management of a pandemic on anyone. Doesn't seem like it was easy. No, not easy for anyone. You know, and when you say, you know, and talk about levels of preparedness. I mean, I think every country found that they were ill-prepared for something of this scale. We had an influenza plan, but, you know, soon realised, of course, something like a pandemic, you know, you have to be so specific to the illness in front of you. How does it, you know, is it, you know, what kind of fomite transfer are you getting and what's the incubation periods? All of that was material in trying to determine how you manage this illness.

16:44And so the decision during lockdown earlier, I remember that actually New Zealand had the benefit of watching the rest of the world.

16:52Jacinda Ardern:And I cannot, you know, I cannot overstate how important that was. I mean, we didn't get our first case until the 28th of February. So we were watching the US, the UK. We were watching Italy. We were watching China. We were seeing the way different countries were managing it. And one of the things that played out in my mind was, well, if we choose to do something different and it fails, we end up being no worse off than anyone else. But at least we will have tried. So there was a sense of the path of less regret. So that's the first thing I would say. And that was quite determinative for me and probably a little bit borne out from an earlier experience When I first came into office, we had the issue of an illness affecting our national herd called Mycoplasma bovis.

17:46Jacinda Ardern:And it posed huge animal welfare issues for us, this illness which came in for our first experience of it within our borders. And it was also going to hit the productivity of a really important sector to us. and we were one of very few nations that didn't have it. And when we looked around at countries that had recently had an experience of it coming in, we went and asked them, what would you have done differently? And I remember Ireland telling us that there's a chance you can get rid of it, get rid of it. Right. And so, again, I remember that sense of the path of least regret. It's worth trying.

18:25Jacinda Ardern:And so that was a bit of the mindset. Do you apply that framework other places in your life and leadership? Oh, often. Part of the least regret. Regret is an awful emotion. Regret is an awful emotion when, you know, when you have a sense of the different possibilities that are sitting in front of you, you know, that if only. I do differentiate, you know, because some people ask me, well, with hindsight, with COVID, you know, What do you regret? If it's something where at the time you don't know the long term. Yeah, then I feel a little bit differently about that. But, you know, when we came to making that plan around let's try for a lockdown and let's see if we can get our cases down to nil, that was very much because they told us that unlike the initial mantra of flatten the curve, everyone's remember, everyone was going to control it.

19:24Jacinda Ardern:we were going to have it in the country but we were going to manage it in such a way that our hospitals would be okay my mind shifted when someone put a graph in front of me that said there's no managing this, once it goes it goes and that was being borne out around the world you could see it and I thought well if you can't flatten the curve you've got to try and crush it because otherwise I was going to preside over people dying in a preventable situation. Or try and minimise the collateral damage, which is what Sweden did. Yeah, I mean, they took a very, they did, they took a very different approach, but we had some differences in our population.

20:02Jacinda Ardern:You know, we had data which told us that our Pacific and our Maori population would be more heavenly hit, that, you know, some of the risk factors were more prevalent for some of our populations. And I found a real duty there. And keep in mind, we're the gateway to the Pacific. People come through us. And we have in our history, influenza in roughly 1918, went from New Zealand into Samoa and decimated their population. And did I want to preside over another one of those situations? Weighty questions. We're going to end part one by asking you about something different and just, I guess, the future of government, the future of political leadership.

20:47So how do we basically get better leaders and how do we avoid, I guess, this monopoly on charisma that the strongman leaders that we talked about earlier in an episode seem to have at the moment? How do we get more sensible, good leaders who have charisma and can compete with populists into leadership positions?

21:05Jacinda Ardern:Well, the first thing I'd say is they are there if we look. You know, I think one of the issues that we have is the incentives are all towards, you know, there's a lot of amplification of those who are on the extremes. And in part because, you know, that gets clicks. You know, we're drawn to those things that shock or inflame. And I don't think politics is a good place for shock and awe. So they are there if we look. And we need to, you know, place greater priority and reward for those who are grafting to build consensus, who don't oversimplify issues that are not simple, who actually don't compromise on values that we need.

21:49Jacinda Ardern:I run a fellowship on empathetic leadership and politics with people who are in politics, so I know they are there. So look for them and expect it as well. Expect it from your leaders. And then some of the other asks I have for politicians themselves. Okay, what are they? Well, first of all, not to use the old tricks of politics. And look, I know this is an appeal that will fall on deaf ears for some, but the politics of fear and blame are old, have been used for decades. But we do have genuine issues that need to be solved. But blaming certain members of society and pointing the finger in other directions just is used as a tactic to take away the expectation that politicians will actually fix the problems itself.

22:36Jacinda Ardern:So I like to call out the use of fear and blame. Fantastic. Okay, last question. Not an easy one. If you were to design domestic government from the ground up, if you were to design international politics from the ground up with a blank page to be optimal for the next 10 to 20 years, what would it look like? It would actually look a lot like the New Zealand system. It would. No system is perfect, but the system that we have, which is called mixed-member proportional, gives space for real diversity of views. It means that the parliament with its two votes, we vote for your local representative and then the party you want to leave in government, means we have small parties in there.

23:20Jacinda Ardern:We have larger parties. We have a diversity of population. We also have dedicated seats for Indigenous New Zealanders, as we well should. and so our parliament looks like the community it serves. Is it a perfect system? No, there are some tweaks I think probably need to be made to it but we also have select committees that have members of parliament from across parties who just work on the government's laws to make them better based on the feedback of New Zealanders. There are some really good elements. I think some of the struggle is not just though the way that our institutions are framed. Healthy democracies also rely on healthy debate, respectful debate, dialogue, consensus building.

24:11Jacinda Ardern:Disinformation disrupts that in really challenging ways. So I think it's not just about the systems, but the environment our systems are operating in that we need to be thoughtful about. The platforms. The platforms, yeah. I think, and this is not a left or right issue. It's not. It's an issue of healthy democracy. If you believe in democracy, you should be worried about what's happening with this information. And what about international collaboration? On this issue, necessary. I mean, we're in a, you know, when it comes to some of these issues, I would say, you know, the regulation of AI or this issue, the online environment, it requires an international approach.

24:55Jacinda, thank you for sharing your approach to leadership. Next week, we're going to ask about the person behind the ideas. but thanks so much.