"Mothers Can Do it All. They Just Shouldn't Do it On Their Own" - Former NZ Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's Life Lessons

0:02Jacinda Ardern:I didn't mind him asking me. I did not agree with the idea that every woman should face that because let's be honest, if an employer is asking a prospective employer if they intend to have children, it's not so they can prepare the gift basket. Jacinda, welcome back to Giant Ideas. Thank you. Last week you shared your Giant Ideas. This week we're going to ask about the person behind the ideas. And we ask all our guests if you could choose three photographs that defined your life and what you've learned in your life? What would those three photographs be? I spent like, you know, like 140 ,000 words trying to answer this question in a book.

0:41Jacinda Ardern:Do you know, I think the first would be from my childhood, you know, in the frame, my parents, my sister, and probably in the really early years, I grew up in two places. Most of my time spent in a really wonderful small town called Morrinsville, but a few years in an even smaller town called Murupara. And, you know, you can never quite pinpoint if you're a political person or, you know, someone who wants to commit their lives to lofty ambitions like changing the world, where exactly that comes from. But in part, you know, those few years in Murupara, I think, showed me how strongly I felt about just making sure that you're just doing what you can around inequality, fairness, and particularly for kids.

1:38Jacinda Ardern:And child poverty has been something I've cared about since as long as I can remember. Carried it with me all the way through my time in politics. and I really think that's its origin. But at the same time, the reason it would be a photo in Murupara but with my parents is because of values, that idea that you should go and do something that is of service to other people. That was very much from my parents. What would be your second photograph? Probably one from my time in office because it will be the greatest privilege of my life. There are a few photos from March 15 that will always stay with me You know, if you get asked that question when you finish in a job like that You know, whether or not you're a different person And I find it quite hard to explain I don't fundamentally think I am But I do now carry extra things with me and one is just the sadness that I know I'll never shake from that period.

2:44Jacinda Ardern:And so that's what those images represent for me, the deep privilege of office, but sometimes the sadness that can come with it. And your third? Third would just be my husband and my daughter. We've got lots of snaps together now of us experiencing the world together and they just bring me such joy. And one of the great things about the last couple of years while we've been away from our home is that I've come to realise actually I can be pretty happy anywhere when I'm with my family. That's lovely. You became the youngest ever female head of government at 37. What is it about you that enabled you to see this kind of success so early in your life?

3:32Jacinda Ardern:Oh, I didn't.

3:36Jacinda Ardern:Nope, could not visualize that for a moment. You know, and I think it's one of the things I struggle with a little bit is that I want so much, you know, those who might have a little bit of a confidence gap to put themselves into the position where they, you know, they are putting themselves forward for leadership. But I didn't. And so I'm also almost. You were a reluctant leader. I was, and it was a really bizarre set of circumstances. I mean, seven weeks out for an election, we're in the early 20s percentage wise, which was not enough to win. My boss, you know, realises that maybe he might not be able to pull it off and suggests I take over and I tell him absolutely not.

4:22Jacinda Ardern:You know, you've got to stick with it. I mean, what a terrifying prospect. Who takes over the leadership seven weeks out from an election? But then a week later, there was no choice. He came to work and he quit. And so I think, you know, in part I feel now this obligation to say, well, I may not have chosen it, but I'd like to think I tried to prove something once I was there. And so now I want to encourage other people that you don't have to be in those very particular circumstances. Instead, just push through that hesitancy, that reluctance. Well, there's that truism about the best leaders being those who don't seek power.

5:04Jacinda Ardern:And at the moment, we could use a bit more of it, I think. In your resignation remarks, you said that I know what this job takes. And candidly, I no longer have in the tank what's required. What was going on for you at that moment in time? Yeah, I really try and differentiate between the idea of burnout. Because, you know, burnout in my mind, I kind of think you're in the fetal position in the corner. And that wasn't me. I could have kept going. I just didn't think I could keep going to the standard that I thought was, you know, that was necessary. And I always had to make a long-term decision because it was like, you know, we were a year out from an election.

5:45Jacinda Ardern:And for that I needed to commit to another three years. You know, that's the contract. I didn't like the idea of running and then saying, well, after a year I'm off. That didn't feel right to me. So, you know, a year out I had to make that call. And for me, it was just as I said, I just thought actually five years felt like 10. I'd been in politics for 15 altogether. It felt like the right thing to do was for someone else to take over. For the parents amongst our listeners, particularly the mums, you had a baby while you were prime minister. Reflecting on that now, what did you learn about yourself?

6:22What did you learn about what's possible, what's not possible? Tell us a bit about that.

6:26Jacinda Ardern:The great thing is I didn't know what it was to be a prime minister without being pregnant and being a child. So when you just, you know, as my husband always used to say, there's only one way to eat an elephant, you know, one bite at a time. And that's literally how it felt. You just took every, I think you can really easily feel overwhelmed if you think it in the round. But actually life was just a set of logistics each day and just breaking it down, taking each day as it came. One thing I had to get past was the idea that I could control everything, you know, and I think that's, you know, one of an unfortunate, one of my toxic traits.

7:10Jacinda Ardern:And when you've got a baby, I mean, they're just not going to run to whatever schedule you have in mind. I had to let go. I had to accept help. I had to let a village in. those were all good things in the end. But what I would say is yes, women and mothers can do it all, they just shouldn't do it on their own. So that for me was really important to model. I hated the idea of someone thinking well, you know, I'm failing because look at everything she's doing. I never did it by myself. Right. Yeah. I've seen some fantastic clips of you fighting back against some pretty shocking misogyny on local radio stations with the next cricketer on the radio.

7:52I think I saw one where you were like, you, you do not ask questions like that. Women should not be forced to talk about whether they're going to have a baby or not when they're taking a job and so on. Yes. You face some pretty shocking stuff. Tell us about that. How did you deal with it?

8:05Jacinda Ardern:Yeah, I mean, I think I grappled with this because there's always this, you know, I felt at least, I felt like on some occasions where I experienced, You know, a cartoon that would portray me You know, like a bikini in a set of stilettos As a tokenistic politician Which is one of the ones that I had And I got asked for comment And I remember thinking If I get stuck in, I'm going to be portrayed as humorless So I thought it was often those real lose-lose situations So often I would ignore it And to be fair It was not my overwhelming experience of politics Was not fighting every single day sexism It just wasn't And so I, you know, in part, sometimes ignoring it felt like the better option.

8:51Jacinda Ardern:But then there were these times where I thought, but for anyone watching, I think sometimes it is right to push back. And so on that particular example you raise, I didn't mind him asking me because I'd chosen to put those discussions out into the open. I'm being asked before and I'd answer the question. I did not agree with the idea that every woman should face that. because let's be honest, if an employer is asking, a prospective employer, if they intend to have children, it's not so they can prepare the gift basket. And so that I thought was worthy of pushback. And it was my first day, my first full day as leader of the Labour Party that happened, and I remember my press secretary, he just looked ashy, you know, because he had no idea how it would go and nor did I.

9:37Jacinda Ardern:But I thought I've got to still be true to who I am. Yeah. Last question from me. You had this extraordinary moment where, as you say, seven weeks out from the election, you're not expecting to be the leader, let alone be the prime minister. Then Jacinda Mania takes over across the world. You become this global figure and people are, you know, looking up to you as a role model. You've been on this very, very wild ride as a person. And you then leave office in your 40s. And in a way, perhaps it's similar to, I always think this was sports stars, where you have this incredible career in your kind of 20s, early 30s.

10:09and then you retire from sports and you've got to move on to the next thing the rest of your life is in front of you and the challenge of kind of recreating that buzz because it must have been incredibly fun as well as challenging and the bright lights and all of it how are you thinking about kind of re-energizing for the next chapter what is the next chapter we'd love to hear that

10:27Jacinda Ardern:sure um i feel like i'm in the next chapter yeah so uh i i spent some quite a bit of time learning how to write in order to write a write a book that was an exciting challenge i'm still the patron for the Christchurch Call to Action, which is a piece of work around violent extremism and terrorism online. So I work on issues like radicalization and how we address those issues, working alongside civil society and technology companies. I'm the special envoy for Oceania for COP. So I work on climate issues and I'm on the board of the Earthshot Prize. And I'm doing a piece of work with Oxford through the world leader, Sue Conn, empathetic leadership.

11:08Jacinda Ardern:So I still finding, you know, if there's an existential crisis somewhere, you'll find me there. Do you miss the buzz of being prime minister? I miss, I miss the people I worked with and I miss the fact that you can see a problem and then you've got the ability to fix it. There's such a, I mean, how many jobs can do that, but I do not regret the decision. So I think those two, two things can, No regrets. It can be true. No regrets. But the one thing I will say is that it doesn't, the step change for me. Yes, the stress is far different. The pace of life is far different. But I never felt the mania that you describe.

11:52Jacinda Ardern:New Zealand is a place that values humility, expects humility, is very egalitarian, does not expect anyone to, you know, lose sight of who they are and why they're there. You know, so I love that about my home. And it has meant that the journey from Prime Minister back into civilian life was a very easy one for me because I'd like to think I never forgot who I was or why I was there. Well, I think that's an incredible note to end on. so Jacinda thank you so much for joining us on Giant Ideas thank you for having me thanks so much