In short
A specially extended BBC World Service “More Than The Score” bonus episode asks whether any of the 10 African nations at the FIFA Men’s World Cup can win the tournament, revisiting Africa’s past achievements and debating what’s holding teams back.
Guests (backgrounds)
Gabriel Zaquani, former DR Congo captain; Stephen Kolker, former Sierra Leone captain and Premier League defender; Lee James hosts. They discuss African football development from player and coaching perspectives, including diaspora recruitment.
Key claims
Africa’s main historical barriers are infrastructure, travel burden, and investment decisions; Morocco’s infrastructure helped them reach the 2022 semifinals and set a new standard. Senegal are framed as the most complete African side right now, while Cape Verde are repeatedly described as a “dark horse.” Homegrown coaches may add “10%,” but teams must still handle big-stage pressure.
Notable examples
Pele’s pre-2000 prophecy; Cameroon 1990 quarterfinal; Senegal 2002 and Ghana 2010; Morocco 2022 semifinal; Senegal’s shock win over France; DR Congo’s long World Cup absence; Axel Twanzibi’s goal for DR Congo qualification.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOHistorical Context of African Teams in World Cup
1:53 to 2:39
Explore the achievements of African nations in past World Cups.
“Hello, I'm Lee James and this is More Than The Score, the BBC World Service podcast that's looking at the stories beyond the score sheets at the FIFA Men's World Cup.”
Debut and Aspirations of African Nations
2:43 to 4:25
Discuss the significance of debuting African nations and their potential.
“Could one of those nations deliver Africa's first World Cup?”
Challenges Facing African Teams
4:28 to 6:15
Understand the historical hurdles African teams face in the World Cup.
“they'll be the 14th African nation to have played at the World Cup finals.”
Infrastructure and Recruitment in African Football
6:17 to 8:19
Investigate the importance of infrastructure and player recruitment.
“So that's putting the money in then, Gabby, to get better facilities, better pitches, to train on, everything that comes with that?”
The Role of Talent and Representation
8:21 to 10:50
Examine the significance of showcasing talent on the world stage.
“So it's about putting resources in then.”
Future of African Football and Potential Surprises
10:52 to 14:01
Discuss the expectations and hopes for African teams in the World Cup.
“They can see now that there is a pathway there.”
The Rise of African Football
14:01 to 16:44
Examine the progress of African teams in international tournaments and coaching dynamics.
“when it comes to the African sort of giants that are doing well when it comes to African football.”
Setting New Expectations
16:45 to 20:40
Discuss the impact of Morocco's semifinals achievement on future expectations for African teams.
“If you look where we're sat today in England, you've got a German manager who may well bring England the World Cup.”
Potential of African Nations
20:41 to 22:39
Explore which African teams may surprise in upcoming tournaments and their growth.
“In fact, the eggshell has been broken now.”
Previewing the African Teams
24:50 to 28:03
Analyze the strengths and weaknesses of African nations heading into the World Cup.
“I mean, let's see if they meet at any stage, but could that have an impact at all on the World Cup?”
Show all 20 chapters
Senegal's World Cup Aspirations
28:03 to 29:41
Discussion about Senegal's strong performance and potential in the upcoming World Cup.
“And just to make everyone aware, in this enlarged 48-team World Cup finals, the top two from each of the 12 groups progresses, and the eight best third-place teams also make it through to a round of 32.”
Iliman Ndiaye's Commitment to Senegal
29:41 to 31:23
Forward Iliman Ndiaye shares his journey and determination to represent Senegal.
“after we've heard from the Senegal and Everton forward.”
Analyzing Senegal's Group D Challenges
31:23 to 33:26
In-depth look at Senegal's tough group in the World Cup and their chances.
“Nearly 100 players born in France are going to feature in the finals, 75 of them representing other nations.”
Algeria, Egypt, and the African Contingent
33:26 to 34:49
A discussion on Algeria and Egypt's prospects in their respective groups.
“and they're going in there, to be honest, to win.”
Ivory Coast's Dark Horse Potential
34:49 to 37:04
Exploring Ivory Coast's strengths and chances in their World Cup group.
“And do Egypt fall into the same category?”
Ghana's World Cup Hopes
37:04 to 39:39
Ghana's challenges and expectations heading into the World Cup.
“And I'll give my prediction in a little bit.”
Cabo Verde's Historic World Cup Entry
39:39 to 42:00
Discussion on Cabo Verde's debut in the World Cup and their potential.
“We're putting this down as a tough one, I think.”
African Teams in the World Cup: Hopes and Challenges
42:00 to 46:00
Explore the potential of African teams, particularly the DRC and South Africa, in the upcoming World Cup and the unique challenges they face.
“Stephen are you going for a surprise or two?”
Predictions for African Nations' Success
46:00 to 49:00
Discussion on how many African nations might progress beyond the group stage and the potential for an African team to win the World Cup.
“First of all, how many of these 10 are getting out of the group?”
The Future of African Football
49:00 to 50:20
Reflect on the growth of African football and the possibility of an African team winning the World Cup in the near future.
“I would have said give another two World Cups and then start catching up and bridging the gap in terms of just facilities and everything that goes with it.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
0:30The new tropical butterfly refresher from Starbucks. Guava and passion fruit flavors with mango pineapple flavored pearls. Yeah, that feels like summer before you even taste it. Funny how one small stop becomes the best part of the day. Start your summer rhythm with Starbucks. Try the new tropical butterfly refresher from Starbucks. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Jewel Osco. Ready to save? It's time for Cyber Deals. Kick off summer with fresh savings that brighten the season. You don't want to miss these exclusive week-long digital offers on your favorite products that are only available when you shop online.
1:08Save on eligible items from Gatorade, Oreo, Frito-Lay, and Doug. Only available now through June 16th on pickup or delivery orders only. Restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions. Hello, I'm Valerie Sanderson from the Global News Podcast. With the World Cup now underway, we thought you'd enjoy hearing from another BBC World Service podcast, More Than The Score. All through the tournament, they'll be telling stories of the new teams, standout stars, trends and fandoms changing the game in ways the stats simply don't show. In this episode, they're asking if any of the 10 African nations in this year's tournament could win it all.
1:49You can listen to the whole episode right here and I hope you enjoy it. Hello, I'm Lee James and this is More Than The Score, the BBC World Service podcast that's looking at the stories beyond the score sheets at the FIFA Men's World Cup. Half a century on from Pele's infamous prophecy that an African nation will win the World Cup before the year 2000, could this finally be the tournament where the continent delivers its maiden global title?
2:24Cameroon's run to the 1990 quarterfinal was the first of Africa's significant achievements, emulated by Senegal in 2002 and Ghana in 2010, and then surpassed by Morocco at the last tournament in Qatar in 2022, when they produced the watershed moment reaching the semifinals. Now a record 10 African nations will compete at these World Cup finals. Could one of those nations deliver Africa's first World Cup? Well, the Democratic Republic of Congo are represented for only the second time in their history, and their former captain, Gabriel Zaquani, is with us, along with the former Sierra Leone captain and Premier League defender, Stephen Kolker.
3:02Hello to you both. Hi, how are you doing? Hi, Lee. Welcome, both of you. This is a specially extended edition of the More Than The Score podcast, because we've got so much to fit in. But first of all, Gabby, you must be tremendously proud that the Leopards are back on the world stage then, playing at their first finals for over 50 years. Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm absolutely buzzing. It's still taking time to sink in. You know, all the preparation has gone for this over the last four years. I would say we've really took 100 % focus in getting to the World Cup and sort of since I dream realised, but we're not there just to make up the numbers.
3:38So we're there to compete and the hard work really starts now. Stephen, you played in World Cup qualifiers for Sierra Leone. You know that Africa's qualification process for the tournament has arguably been the most brutal in world football. Strong teams often missed out on the global showpiece. How important now we've got 10 teams then representing the continent at the finals? Yeah, such a good opportunity for African football to really go and showcase what they've got. They've got so much individual talent. And I think what we're seeing now are teams really well prepared by their coaches. I think we're seeing not just the individual talent now, I think we're now seeing a collective unit.
4:14And Morocco set the standard in the last World Cup. And I'm really excited to see what the teams can do this year. I think that there may be one or two surprises in there. And great opportunities for all. But Stephen, for a team like Catbird making their debut, they'll be the 14th African nation to have played at the World Cup finals. It is special, isn't it, for players and for everyone connected to the country? It's a fairy tale, honestly. Like when I look at it, I'm a little bit jealous, in all honesty, of what they've managed to achieve. It's such a small country, but they've managed to recruit really well.
4:44They've got a team together there. And like I said, it's a team that plays collectively. They've got, of course, individual talent, but it's how they play collectively that has brought them the success. It's really, really exciting for Cape Verde. I think for all of African football, I think everyone has a soft spot for them. You know, of course, Gabby would say, and he's rooting for DR Congo. But I think if you were to choose a second team, I think Cape Verde is the one because there is a real soft spot for them amongst us Africans. Yeah, if you're picking a second team, perhaps Cape Verde will see what their prospects are like a little later then.
5:14Now, it is difficult to win a World Cup. Only eight nations have managed to do it, representing only two continents. So Africa is not alone in seeking this first continental winner. Historically, there just weren't sufficient opportunities to qualify. That said, though, what do you both believe has historically held back teams from Africa then, Gabby, first of all? I think the infrastructure, I think, is the first part. I think there's not really been too much focus on it. Morocco have gone above and beyond in Africa to make sure they've got the infrastructure for the men, the women, everyone involved.
5:50and to make sure. And we've seen the effects of that at the last World Cup, you know, where they actually did really well. They went really deep into the World Cup. So I think that shows that if everyone really, with the funding, focuses on the football, it could really then level the playing field. But I just think that's been the difference. And Morocco are showing that it's possible to start bridging that gap when you start really investing in football in your country. So that's putting the money in then, Gabby, to get better facilities, better pitches, to train on, everything that comes with that?
6:25Yeah, everything that comes with that. I mean, with the DRC, we've used their facilities as well. We haven't got that level of facility. So when we have training camps, there's been times where we've gone to Morocco and used their facilities. And it is incredible. You know, it's not too far from what you see with the England team up in Derby. Having that facility and with the women's team and everyone involved, the hotels, They've got everything that you can need as a professional footballer. So I think seeing that in Morocco and other countries using their base to do their training camp just shows you how far they've gone.
7:01And then their result in the World Cup tells you exactly what it can do to a nation. Stephen, you represented England at younger age group levels before switching allegiances to Sierra Leone. What are your observations then on that then and the challenges that players can face when representing international football teams in Africa? Gabby's 100 % hit the nail on the head. Infrastructure has been the biggest, I think, pullback really for a lot of African nations. I certainly experienced that with Sierra Leone, switching allegiances from England where everything's done for you to then go into Sierra Leone.
7:33Listen, they've made a lot of progress in recent years, as have a lot of the countries. I want to add to what Gabby mentioned there would be as part of the infrastructure is the travel. That's been a big, big issue across African football for a long time. The travel, how you prepare for the game is massive. If you're getting on flights, three, four indirect flights, traveling 20, 24 hours at a time, sleeping at airports, and then having to play a day or two later, of course that's naturally going to give the opposition an advantage. I think closing the gap on that, you mentioned Morocco having top facilities, and as part of Seattle, we used to all the time go to Morocco and play there.
8:08Ivory Coast now, off the back of Africa, I've now got the stadiums and the infrastructure there now where we often use their facilities. So there are African nations building that. and the last thing I'll add is if you look at Senegal what they've done is they've built from the bottom up they've built with the youth teams they've put a heavy focus into that they've not just gone right we're going to get a result magically through Sadio Manti they've actually gone right let's build a team from scratch and that's what they've done there and I feel that they're reaping the rewards there's a lot of talk around Morocco but I'm a big fan of Senegal in my eyes they're still the people's champions from the last half gone and I think that teams can learn from both Morocco and Senegal in terms of development.
8:49So it's about putting resources in then. And sometimes those resources can be scarce. So it's about how you direct those funds in the right way then. Absolutely. For me, it's about putting the money in the right hands to begin with and then making the right decisions about it. Of course, it's not always easy. People are going to make mistakes at the top, all the way from the top to the bottom. People are going to make that. And I think players are understanding of that. But let's make sure that when the money is there, that it is going to the right places. Another thing I'd add is recruitment.
9:18So a lot of what Cape Verde, we just spoke about, they were going to recruit players that are playing abroad that have some kind of connection to the country. Myself, being a good example, with Sierra Leone, my granddad was born there. And through that link, that was how I then represented the country. So I think recruitment's also been a big part in helping strengthen a lot of nations. And Gabby, that's something that you're working with with the Democratic Republic of Congo, working with those younger age group levels to try and ensure that the nation has the very best talent then from the diaspora of players from around the world, from the European-born players, perhaps with Congolese heritage?
9:56Yeah, I mean, with African countries, there's a lot of players who are playing in Europe, but then don't see that the African countries, they're sort of their home, and they'd rather play for sort of the bigger nation in inverted commas. But I think when teams are starting to make it to the World Cup, for example, at the DRC this year with Cape Verde, it's easier to attract players from the European countries than to go back home and to start representing their country. So I think it's a mixture of so many things. I think infrastructure is a massive thing. I think recruitment is massive. And also you have to do well to get the players to believe in your vision as well.
10:38So I think teams starting to do better and go into World Cups and doing well in African Cup of Nations tournaments will encourage the younger generation to want to emulate those players. So I think it all goes hand in hand. So they've got to have those role models and that's what you're telling the players that you speak to, to try and encourage them to represent the Democratic Republic of Congo. They can see now that there is a pathway there. Yeah, I mean, what before the pathway wasn't really there, you know, it was just a hope and we can make it happen together. but now I think they can see the work that's been put in to now want to play at the biggest stage potentially they can't play for England they won't play for Belgium they won't play for France but they can still get to the World Cup and represent their country which is massive and the biggest example I think is Axel Twanzibi you know he's gone through the system with the England with the England team I had a conversation with him I think it's probably four years ago and then he scores the goal to get us to the World Cup you know so that is the sort of fairytale ending to it and probably the story I'll use for the next player that I'll try and get into the country.
11:40I think it's something that is obviously working, but I just think players need to believe in the vision and that story there with Twanzibi and Aaron Wan-Bissaka coming through and getting the country to the World Cup over the line. I think it can inspire the next generation. You take all the credit for that, Gabby. Yeah, you said it, not me. Stephen, what encouraged you to make that switch then? having represented England and perhaps at one stage thought that was the dream, to play for England at full international level, and then represented Sierra Leone and went on to play at an Africa Cup of Nations?
12:17Do you know what? Similar to the role that Gabby played, I had Carlton Cole on the phone to me. So Carlton Cole with Sierra Leone heritage never actually represented the country. But there's strong connections there. Reached out and said, look, my uncle's part of the committee there. They want to bring you in and you're up for having a conversation. And I'm always someone that's open to having the conversation. I never know what that's going to lead to. But I felt after speaking with the coach, this feels like a really exciting challenge. It's something that came much later on in my career and I kind of wish it came earlier on.
12:46But I can really relate to the stories there that Gabby's talking about. I'm finding it a little bit harder with Sierra Leone because there isn't that sort of dream of, look, the World Cup, look, even AFCON right now is a bit of a stretch. So it is really difficult, but I find it quite interesting that we're both kind of doing similar roles but at different stages. So we're at that beginning stage. I will now use the story of DR Congo and say, look, there is that success. It is possible over the road. It just takes, I think, one or two slightly bigger names, let's say, to make the decision to go.
13:16And then I think the rest will follow. And it's really, I think it's an exciting time for African football because it's very much on the rise and people are standing up and taking note. Yeah, of course, there's so much talent is there, Gabby, and that could be tapped into that could represent African nations. The likes of Kylian Mbappe, of course, could have played on the continent. But it's about developing that talent. And we can't say there isn't that talent there that could have delivered a World Cup already. We've seen so many wonderful top African footballers, even this tournament, with the likes of Sadio Mane, Mohamed Salah, Riyad Mahrez, OK, towards the end of their careers, but certainly falling into that category where they've certainly delivered for their countries, Gabby.
13:54Yeah, no, they have delivered for their countries. But I think it's always we're missing that final part still. when it comes to the African sort of giants that are doing well when it comes to African football. But again, I think we just go back to the last tournament. I think Morocco did very well. And then now you've seen, you've mentioned Sadio Mane. Senegal, for me, are probably the best team in Africa at this moment in time, you know? And if they can go that extra step, it would be great. But there's always, at this moment in time, there is something missing. And probably those points that we made earlier about infrastructure and to make sure that they are doing things correctly.
14:31just like the sort of the big European countries would probably be the bit that they can bridge the gap. But at this moment in time, I think there's so much talent and I think having 10 teams, there will be a surprise or one of the African teams surely will go deep into the tournament. Anything in the fact that the successes have come with homegrown coaches, Gabi, Waleed Regragui with Morocco to the World Cup semifinals at recent Africa Cup of Nations, Samer Seyfe with Ivory Coast, Pat Yau with Senegal, sort of validated that homegrown coaching model. I noticed only four of the 10 teams this time of local coaches, but can that make a real difference?
15:09It can. I mean, it's someone that can resonate and someone that will be probably a bit more passionate because that's where they're from. And, you know, they're a fan as well. So it does make probably give them that extra 10 % on the side. But I'm just still not sure if that makes the full difference because at the end of the day, they have to be ready to manage at the big stage and to deal with the pressure. So it all comes with a lot of different attributes that you need as a manager. But I think that can make a difference. And it shows in terms of success, you can see with Morocco, with Senegal, with countries that have gone on and done well, that it can give them that extra 10 % because they've got someone that really resonates with the country.
15:52And what do you think, Stephen, Morocco's journey to the semifinals has done? It shattered that quarterfinal ceiling that had frustrated African ambition since Cameroon's run in 1990. So what has that done for expectations now that we have seen an African team really move from participant to contender? Yeah, they've shown it's possible. They've set a standard there. And I think that personally, I think Senegal will be the team this year that will come closest to the final, maybe even win it. Why not? Why not? There's this, oh, if we just get there, why not? It is possible. Of course, it's going to be difficult coming up against some great nations with great players who are very well organised.
16:31But I just want to mention the coaches that you've spoken about there. I'm actually a big fan of homegrown coaches. I think it's really important that the coaches do have the connection with the country. They do have the connection with the players. I mean, it's just my opinion. If you look where we're sat today in England, you've got a German manager who may well bring England the World Cup. It's a matter of opinion. but I do believe having someone who's been there, knows the country inside out, knows what it means. Because ultimately, when you get to that level and you're there, you're competing on that stage, a lot of it is about the feeling.
17:03What's the energy like when we're in the dressing room? Of course, tactics play their part, but the biggest part when the players walk out on that pitch is how they're feeling collectively. And then the manager for me is the one who leads the way and I'm really excited. I'm excited to see, of course, Salah, probably at his last World Cup. I'm excited to see what Ivory Coast bring to the table. South Africa, who were my dark horse in AFCON. What can they do in the World Cup? I've always been highly of South Africa. I'm waiting for that to come to fruition and to sit on this call and say, I told you South Africa are a good team.
17:34But, you know, there's just so much to talk about and it's a really exciting tournament ahead. Yeah, we'll go through each of those teams shortly. I mean, just finally on the coaches, I suppose it depends what kind of project it is, Gabby, as well, whether that European coach has been at the country for a long period of time and has really built up that team or whether, as we've seen in previous tournaments, a big European name is just brought in for the World Cup finals. Carlos Kiras has been appointed by Ghana for these World Cup finals at a very late stage and often perhaps hasn't had that connection.
18:05Yeah, I mean, connection is always important. You know, we've tried the homegrown route before where we had Ibenge, who did very well at the African Cup of Nations, but always fell short of the World Cup stage. Then we brought in Sebastian de Saba, who has that European connection probably helps with the recruitment as well. And he has that African experience. And to me, he's French, but he seems like he's Congolese every time we have a conversation because he's so passionate about the DRC and spends a lot of his time in the DRC, even when there's no games, watching players coming through and trying to build the infrastructure.
18:43So it is just about what they represent and what they want to do with the country. And if they are very invested, then they can be as crucial as someone who's homegrown. And before we go through the teams this time around, can either of you honestly say that an African team has missed out? Perhaps, obviously, Morocco, having got to a semi-final, could well have gone on to win that tournament. But we've had some big shocks, Senegal beating France, and they're running 2002, Cameroon in 1990 with Argentina. But can we honestly say that there's an African team that's missed out on a World Cup anywhere down the line, Stephen?
19:18What do you think? Not in my opinion. Not in my opinion. I don't think. I think at the end of the tournament, the best team wins. And I think that if they've fallen short, they've fallen short for a reason. Whether that's the infrastructure that we've mentioned, whether that be the recruitment, whether that's be a bit bad luck. You always need a little bit of luck to win anything in football. You always need a little bit of luck. So I mean, there's many factors as to why the African teams haven't yet won it. But have they been deserving of it? No, not in my opinion. Not yet. But hopefully this tournament will change that.
19:46Gabby, Garner will say a certain handball, of course, in 2020. and things could have gone very differently there for them, exit at the quarterfinal stage. But has any really missed out? No, I feel I agree with Stephen there. None has missed out that you think they should have won the World Cup or anything to that. I think at this moment in time, the mindset of African football has just been they've done well, but just not quite good enough. You know, Morocco has probably changed the landscape in thinking possibly, you know, you're one game away from winning a tournament now. So I think it's a bit open now.
20:19teams are going there, they're going to be free, they're going to attack. And hopefully one can surprise us and hopefully even get to a final. Well, Sunday Elise represented Nigeria at their first World Cup finals, played in the United States in 1994. They reached the round of 16. Does he think Africa can improve on Morocco's semifinal place in 2022? Well, it's possible we can build on it. In fact, the eggshell has been broken now. Everybody knows that you can get that far. I think so. But the question I'm asking myself now is that the way the Moroccans played four years ago, it's certain if they play that same way now, they won't get that far.
20:59Because they played it tactically very, very cagey style and came out countering to win games. But now, if you do that now, you're going to struggle. But for the African nations, I think there's so much... I am kind of like Atristed because I'm very sad because Nigeria is not going That's kind of like Spoils a lot of things For me personally But if you look at it From a general point of view There are so many Interesting nations That I have had The honor and the pleasure Of working on As an expert Or as a commentator As I've seen them play That I'm looking forward To seeing them How they can do On the world stage But I think It should be great, Lee Which of the African teams do you think potentially has the best chance of success Sunday?
21:47Lydia, so many of them. I find Senegal extremely strong. Senegal is solid, really, very, very solid. I find the Moroccans also solid. How they now cope with the change of manager, I don't know how that's going to affect them. I find those ones very, very solid. And also, I think that of all nations that have really qualified for the major tournaments, there are some that have worries for, especially those who have changed managers, who change managers. I'm really worried for those ones. And one team that I think might surprise people a bit might be Kip Verde, because just as they shocked the whole Africa to qualify, others might even find them to be, you know, surprising too.
22:30And I'll be getting closer to, you know, having an African team win the World Cup, whether it's at this edition or, you know, in the next one or two, do you think we will see an African team win a World Cup soon? No, Lee, if there's something I want to see before God takes me to heaven or hell, I don't know which one he's sending me to. It would be great to see an African nation win this because this is a competition, a tournament that we all love passionately in Africa. And whoever wins that, oh, I wish them good luck because they're going to enjoy it a lot. That's the former Nigeria captain, Sunday Alise.
23:07The former Democratic Republic of Congo captain Gabriel Zaquani, the former Sierra Leone captain and Premier League defender Stephen Kolker are with us as we discuss when will an African nation win the World Cup. Ten hours on my feet, traffic, noise, everybody needing something from me. My head is spinning, I just need the world to stop for one second. But then I get home, shoes off, phone out, and I open Modo Casino. Hundreds of slots, classic table games. It's my instant reset. The variety I want and the quiet I need. Modo Casino, the social casino. We're prohibited. No purchase necessary. Visit Modo.us for more details.
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Read the full transcript
24:19I'm Kai Wright. I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from The Guardian. We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists, just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting. We don't have billionaires telling us what to say. Stateside with Kyan Carter will come out three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, starting May 13th. Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
24:48now in order of the fifa world rankings at this tournament we have morocco ranked eighth senegal 14 then algeria egypt ivory coast tunisia the drc south africa capverd and ghana so which african nations do you think has the best chance of going deep into this tournament let's look through them then starting with the finalists from the recent Africa Cup of Nations I think it's easier to say the finalists because we're not exactly sure who the winners were Senegal beat the host Morocco in the final back in January that chaotic end to the game Senegal's players walking off after their opponents were awarded that stoppage time penalty with a match goal as they scored a winner in extra time but the Confederation of African Football overturned that result and awarded Morocco the 3-0 victory Senegal have appealed to the court of arbitration for sport So, I mean, actually on that, Gabby, is there a bit of a cloud hanging over these two teams?
25:44I mean, let's see if they meet at any stage, but could that have an impact at all on the World Cup? No, I don't think so. I don't know anyone who's taken it very seriously, that Morocco won. I think everyone does look at Senegal. That was Senegal's trophy. I think the core of arbitration, it'll be interesting to see what the outcome is. But I don't think, I think Senegal, one thing about them, they're very efficient, They're very professional when it comes to getting the business done on the pitch. And I don't think that will be something that will overcloud or change in the way they're prepared for this tournament.
26:17And Morocco, they're in Group C. So they face Brazil. They've got a tough draw. That is their first game at the MetLife Stadium in New Jersey. Then Haiti and Scotland, Stephen. So they've got to show, haven't they, that 2022 wasn't just a one-off. And as Sunday Lisset was saying, they're under a new coach, Mohamed Ouabi. So lots to prove. For sure. I think, you know, where Morocco are concerned, it'll be a battle between them and Scotland for the second place. I expect Brazil to top the group. Haiti, unfortunately, to finish on the bottom. And I believe it'll be between Scotland and Morocco for that second place.
26:53So you say they've got a tough group, but I'm looking at the groups here. What group would they want to fall in? You know, if you look at some of the teams that are in there and some of the groups, I would say that's not a favourable group, but it's certainly a group where it's achievable for them to get out of the group and get into the knockout stages. Yes, perhaps once they've got beyond the first game and it's not right off that first game, it may be the best time to play Brazil first up, mind it. But I suppose beyond that, yes, you do think there's the opportunity there to get out of the group.
27:23You'd expect them to. I certainly would expect them to. I think that Scotland, although they're a great nation, they've done wonderful things under Steve Clarke, I do think that they often fall short when it comes to the big tournaments. This could be their year, but I expect Morocco to stand in their way. The first game against Brazil. I mean, look, Brazil haven't been fantastic. There's been a lot of talk around. Of course, they've got Carlo Ancelotti in there now, who's just the don of all managers. But if we're being honest, Brazil, I'm not going to say Brazil that we saw 15, 20 years ago.
27:54So it is a game that is possible to win. But if I'm sitting in Morocco's camp, If I'm one of the coaches there, I'll be going, right, we aim to win it. Of course, you aim to win the group, but second place is very achievable. And just to make everyone aware, in this enlarged 48-team World Cup finals, the top two from each of the 12 groups progresses, and the eight best third-place teams also make it through to a round of 32. So more opportunities. At Senegal, Gary Warren, beaten in qualifying, made that really strong statement against England, becoming the first African side to beat them 3-1 at Wembley last June.
28:32Packed with talent. If we look at the likes of Nicholas Jackson, who's been on loan at Bayern Munich from Chelsea, Ismail Assar, you know, creative players there. What is going to hold them back, if anything, do you think, in this tournament? Yeah, I don't think much. I think they're a side that have been building. They're a very mature side as well. Have leaders in the team. Don't really get anything wrong. always have to do exactly what they have to do to get through. You know, I mean, we had them in our group for qualifying for the World Cup. We barely made, dropped any points, but they just got the extra point to make sure that they got the result and got through where we had to go through the whole playoff system and the long way round to the World Cup.
29:17But it was a nearly perfect World Cup qualifying performance by us, but they still managed to do just a little bit more. and they just seem to always have a result for whatever you've got, they can always do a little bit more and I expect them to do really well. I think they've shown that they are a side who's developing and now they are a side to really be capable of performing really well. We'll look at their group after we've heard from the Senegal and Everton forward. Here is Iliman and Jai. Since I was young, I've always wanted to represent Senegal and then obviously when I was 10, 11, 12, I went to Senegal for a year to see my family, to see the culture and everything in Senegal.
29:57And from then on, it was like, that makes my decision easier. And yeah, I've never changed it or the back or anything like that. It's always been Senegal. I recommend, you know, if you're African, go and represent your African country. It's the best thing you'll ever do. We never fear anyone. I think we've always seen it in the past when we played England, when we played Brazil. You know, we focus on ourselves and we win games. So, yeah, I don't think it matters who we're playing against. It just matters if we turn up on the day or not. And then obviously, we don't go to a competition if it's not to win it.
30:34I wouldn't even bother packing my suitcase and travelling to the World Cup if it's not to win it. I don't play these tournaments to just be a tourist. We play these tournaments to win it. and yeah, what Morocco did in the last World Cup should give all these African teams an inspiration and you know, like oh they did it, like work on with it they did a brilliant competition that year and yeah, we need to go into that tournament to be very confident and try and focus on ourselves and like I said, go as far as we can in the World Cup and maybe win it. And it's Iliman and Chai of Senegal certainly aiming for a World Cup win and talking about his reasons for choosing to represent them.
31:22Born in France, in fact, France's influence on this World Cup is staggering. Nearly 100 players born in France are going to feature in the finals, 75 of them representing other nations. That means around 8 % of every player at the tournament was born in France. But Illiman and Jai representing Senegal, they are, I think, Stephen, in a tough group then. formidable sides in France and Norway, potentially tricky game against Iraq. And it starts with a repeat of that shock 2002 opener against the French. Then they're going to have to stop the goal machine, Erling Haaland. So lots of work for them.
31:59Yeah, this is a tough group. I would say that this is probably tougher than Morocco's group to face France. You'd expect France in this group to top it. As you mentioned there, Norway, you've got Erling Haaland, You've got Martin Odegaard off the back of winning the Premier League there. They're a strong nation. Of course, if Senegal are able to keep Erland and Haaland quiet, then there's a big possibility that they'll be able to get the points from that game. But it's certainly a tough group. Senegal, I believe, are the strongest African nation in the tournament, but they've got the toughest job of getting out of the group.
32:32Thankfully, as you mentioned, they're the third best place. I think it would give them a little bit of comfort knowing that, OK, if we aren't able to finish first or second, the third place should certainly be theirs. Yeah. And if they are to win the World Cup, though, I haven't plotted it all the way through, Gabby. There's a lot to get through. There's a lot of detail in the draw. But it would obviously potentially mean a harder match in the round of 32. So if we're talking about World Cup winners, does Senegal have to be in the top two? Do they have to be looking to top the group even? Yeah, I think that's the aim.
33:04I can't see Senegal going into this group and hoping to scrape through the group. I think they've shown that they can compete with the best and they will go in there with no fear. I think they're capable of topping the group also. They've caused upsets in the past, but now they've shown they can compete with the top nations. They have top players. They've been building for a few years now. I would say, yes, they are probably the strongest in terms of squad in African football at this moment in time. and they're going in there, to be honest, to win. So for me, I think they would have to come in the top to give themselves a chance to go as deep into the tournament as possible.
33:40So Morocco and Senegal then, perhaps Africa's best hopes. But let's continue down the FIFA rankings where Algeria are in Group J, just to say all the African nations are in different groups, which is how the draw was made. So Algeria up against the reigning champions Argentina, also Austria and Jordan capable of making it difficult. I think it's safe to say, Stephen, for any opponent there, technical attackers, we mentioned Riyad Mahrez continuing to bring that creativity in his experience. Yeah, for sure. He'll be the leader. He's the biggest name on the team sheet there. When you think of Algeria, Mahrez certainly comes to mind.
34:18I think it's another tough group. I could say that about every single group, right? It's a World Cup. you don't get to the World Cup and then face easy teams. The idea is that you're facing the best teams in the world. So, you know, Algeria are going to have to compete against Austria for that second place. Jordan are no mugs. That would certainly be a tough game as well. So it is another really tough one. Can they beat the reigning champions? I think that might be a step too far. But of course, as I said, they've got a second place to aim for and the third place if that fails. And do Egypt fall into the same category?
34:54Gabby, they're in Group G with Belgium, Iran and New Zealand in the sense that it's now or never really for Egypt and Mohamed Salah, isn't it? Can they get beyond the group stage for the first time? Yeah, I'm looking at that and I think they can. I think it is sort of now or never, you know, because it's probably Mohamed Salah's last World Cup. And for me, I think he will be looking to sort of go out on a high as well. At the world stage, he seems to always perform when there's something on the line. and I'm looking at that group and I think they will get through that group. You know, they usually are very hyped up before tournaments and then they sort of fail to deliver.
35:33But I think this time, I think he's got a big point to prove. He didn't quite have the season he wanted to have at Liverpool and I feel that this is him to show the world that he's still got what it takes and I think looking at the group, they certainly have the ammunition to go through. We'll get your predictions just to warn both of you. That is to come. Ivory Coast in Group E. They have Germany, Ecuador and Curaçao, the smallest nation to ever qualify for a World Cup. Now, it feels quite a balanced group. It feels like one where Ivory Coast even could make progress here. They've got the physicality, they've got the technical qualities, though.
36:11Players like Ahmed Diallo could really be a spark for them. What do you think they can achieve? Yeah, I think Ivory Coast are such a strong nation. and for once, they're not the ones with the pressure on them. You know, when it comes to AFCON, they're often deemed as one of the favourites and there's a lot of pressure piled on their shoulders. But I feel like they're quietly a dark horse, which seems strange to say for a country of Ivory Coast, its size and capacity. But it does feel that way. A lot of talk is around Senegal, a lot of talk is on Morocco. I think Ivory Coast could surprise a few.
36:41And look at the group. Again, you'd probably have Germany down there as favourites. Curacao, I've watched quite a bit of their games, is one of our players. in Turkey is actually representing them. So I've seen a little bit of them. I would expect Ivory Coast to beat them. And then, of course, it's the battle then between them and Ecuador to see if they can get out of the group. But I'm quietly thinking that Ivory Coast will be the ones that do make it out of the group. And I'll give my prediction in a little bit. Yeah, let's keep that back just for now. What about Tunisia, though, Gabby, in Group F with the Netherlands, Japan and Sweden?
37:14Now, they didn't exactly excel at the last Africa Cup of Nations, earlier this year. So they've changed their coach. Sabri Lamushi has come in. Could they get through though? I mean, we are talking about the best third place teams as well having an opportunity. So what do you think about Tunisia? Yeah, I think it's an uphill battle for them. I think they'll do well to get out of it. I think out of the countries I'm seeing that we've listed so far, they're probably the one I least expect to do as well as they possibly could because I'm just not sure if they gelled in time and everything, the cohesion.
37:48They haven't done well of late. So it will just be really interesting to see how they've sort of come together as a team and if the coaches' methods have come out to the team. So I think they're the ones who will surprise me if they get out of the room. Six teams down, four to go, including Ghana. And we're going to hear from the Ghana legend, Michael Essier now. He played in the 2006 and 2014 World Cups for his nation, the former Chelsea midfielder in the English Premier League. And he's confident that this team can make progress. I mean, we are expecting them to go past the group stage. It's going to be a very difficult one.
38:27They are in a very difficult group. I think they can do it. They should take it game by game and make sure they can win them in progress. They've assembled some great players there. And so, of course, hopefully they can take their disappointment from the last World Cup to kind of motivate them to go past the group stage. So, yeah, that's what we are hoping for. And hopefully they can deliver. Would you agree that Antoine Semenya is going to be the player that stands out for Ghana? Is he the one people back home are putting their hopes on after the incredible season he's had? Yeah, I believe so.
39:10Because, as you said, he's had a fantastic season. So, yeah, he's going to be the one everyone will kind of look up to to push the team, carry the team with him and push the team forward. Of course, we've lost Kudus, who is one of our most important players. But I think with the help from the others, they can still do a good job. As Garner's Michael Essien with the BBC's Ian Williams. So, Garner then are in Group L. We're putting this down as a tough one, I think. England and Croatia and also Panama and Gabi as Michael was saying there we're there without Mohamed Kouros who is going to be a big loss for Ghana a lot will depend on the firepower of Manchester City's Antoine Semenyo and as we've already mentioned led by a very experienced coach former Portugal and Iran Carlos Kiros but again someone who's come in just on the eve of the tournament yeah again I'm not sure how much impact that will have but just being such a big name will probably give the players a boost.
40:14But losing a player like Kudos, especially when it's Ghana, they really depend on him. You know, anything good that happens going forward in previous matches, it's been all through Kudos. So I think, but, you know, it's not a bad player to now depend on with the season he's had, you know, from Bournemouth, he carried on at Manchester City, he carried on the same level of outpours. So I think they're going in, to be honest, they're going in probably fans not expecting the best because they haven't been in the best form. But I think that freedom and that lack of pressure could be a way to get the best out of Ghana.
40:50Can it take a little time to adjust, Stephen, when you have chosen to represent your nation? Antoine Semenyu has chosen that with Ghana, but as someone who has grown up in England, been part of football teams here in England, can it take a bit of adjustment when you're now on the international stage? I think so. So I feel that just adapting to more things off the pitch than on the pitch, you know, just the differences there. And there are quite a lot, as we mentioned earlier. I mean, Ghana is a big nation with a lot of money behind it. Expect them to be traveling, you know, to a good standard.
41:23Expect to be good hotels, the preparation to be better. But it still will, of course, be a difference, certainly from Man City heading to Ghana. But he's a player that just takes everything in his stride. You know, I thought when he went to Man City in January, could it take him a little bit of time to adapt there? No, it didn't. he hit the ground running and I expect him to do the same with Ghana I just think there's a lot of weight on his shoulders I think if I'm looking at Ghana and I'm just looking at recent form I do struggle to think that Ghana will get out of the group but you know here's the hope that my West African brothers I'm hoping that Semenyo and the others can deliver And what about Kat Verde in Group H with Spain, Uruguay and Saudi Arabia Stephen are you going for a surprise or two?
42:05They've got absolutely nothing to lose, have they, after qualifying for the World Cup for the first time? I think it's a great place to be. Absolutely nothing to lose. No pressure on you. Just go there, enjoy it. Give everything that you've got, which I'm absolutely sure they will. They've given everything they've got to get to this stage. They're not going to rest up now. I think personally that's a team there that can get out of the group. Of course, it'll be tough, especially playing against Spain. It's going to be a real, real test for them. But an unbelievable experience. And I think that actually out of the, let's say, the slightly smaller nations, I would say they're the team for me that will go on and achieve something as World Cup.
42:42And where you play your matches can make a big difference as well with the heat and the conditions that teams will experience, Gabby. Now, the Democratic Republic of Congo then in Group K, Portugal first up in Houston, then Colombia at altitude in Zappapán in Mexico, Uzbekistan, who are making their debut at the World Cup finals in Atlanta. What do you see as the big challenges there then? I think in terms of when it's the weather, there's no challenge there. I think a lot of the Congolese players are used to the heat, especially playing in Congo. It's absolutely unbelievable when you play at the Stade de Marte, our French, sort of our stadium.
43:21And the heat there can literally take you out on your feet, but you just perform there because of the crowd. But I'm looking at that. I think it's very doable. As we've mentioned, the group top three can go through. But I think you look at Portugal, A lot of people write us off for that game. But as I said, I don't think we're in there to just make up the numbers. We just had a friendly a couple of days ago against Denmark. And to me, on chances, we should have won the game. So it shows how far we've come. There's no fear in the Congo team. And I think that sort of element of surprise could be what undoes teams like Portugal against the DRC.
43:59And just on the conditions, though, whilst it may help you, that could be an advantage. the athleticism, the pace, the physicality that you're having in your side could disrupt those teams that you're facing and perhaps look for more possession. Yeah, exactly. It can. And also the route that we've taken to get to the tournament. I mean, we have to play the playoff games in these conditions. So we've had sort of a rehearsal of it against Jamaica to get to the World Cup in these conditions as well. We had a friendly just before that again in these conditions. We're prepared for this. You know, it's sort of not too dissimilar from what's in Africa already.
44:36And we've had the long route of the playoffs to get used to this as well. So I think our players are ready in terms of condition. It's just that if we can adapt to the football and to the quality of a side like Bujol. And for South Africa, Stephen, your tips again after the opening game against Mexico, now with South Korea and Czechia to come, back in the World Cup for the first time since they hosted in 2010. Ken, are your dark horses once more? Yeah, I've got to stick with them. I'll be turning grey before they actually put it off. But no, I'd stick with them. I still think they're one of, if not the best footballing side that I faced in African football.
45:14And I think that it's just about time that they deliver. They play good football. They've got a lot. I think a big advantage for South Africa is a lot of their players play at home in their country. They used to play with each other. They've got that familiarity amongst their squad. I think that South Africa for me will get out of the group I'm going to put my neck on the line and say that but of course you've got against South Korea who are always really well organised work extremely hard played them back in the day in the Olympics the 2012 Olympics and just such a really well organised side South Africa are going to have to be prepared for that Mexico again who you expect to maybe top the group and then Czechia who are also a tough competition so they're in a really tough group South Africa but I'm expecting them to finally show what they're capable of This is the moment then, both of you.
45:58We've got 10 African nations. First of all, how many of these 10 are getting out of the group? Gabby, I know you're going to at least say one of them for the DRC. How many do you think though? I think out of the 10 I'm going for half of it I'm going for 5 I think I can see DRC getting through and I don't think I'm allowed to say anything else but I genuinely do believe DRC will get through I think Senegal and Morocco will certainly get through and I think you know what Cape Verde I think are the dark horse because not many sides expect I think that that element of surprise will be telling and I'm just undecided about Ghana and Ivory Coast, but I would say Ivory Coast will get through as well.
46:42How many are you going for, Stephen, out of the 10 to get through the group stage? I was going to say six, but I don't want to upset Gabby, so I'll go with seven. I think the three that are going to struggle for me are Tunisia. I think they will struggle this one. I do believe that Ghana will struggle and I think that Algeria will struggle. So out of the 10 teams, I'm going to say those three, may struggle the most. And how far do you think an African team can go at this World Cup, Stephen? What are we looking at? Can it match a semi-final? Can it go even further? I would love for it to happen.
47:19I really, really would. And as I've mentioned a couple of times, I do believe if there is going to be a team to do it, it'll be Senegal. I just think it might be a bit too much to ask when I'm looking at some of the teams. I think once I have now this in front of me and I'm looking at the teams, I'm looking at, I'm saying, can Senegal go and beat the likes of Argentina? which you're going to have to beat at some point if you're looking to win the World Cup. Are they going to go and beat Portugal, etc.? So, I don't know. I would say a semi-final would be my opinion, but I would love to be wrong and for one of them to go, not just to the final, but to go and win it.
47:52Well, Spain, Argentina, France, England are the seeded team to reach the semi-final, so someone has got to beat one of them along the way. It could be an African nation. Gabby, do you think? What's possible? Yeah, I think I'd go again with Senegal. I just can't see past them when it comes to the African countries. And, you know, they've proven they can beat England already, you know. So they've got that sort of firepower and that balance in quality to get as far as they can. But it's just in terms of now, it's the World Cup. It's a totally different thing. It's the pressure of it as well to perform.
48:23First option has to be to get through the group and then anything can happen in the one-off games, you know. So I do see Senegal and Morocco being the obvious choices to get as far as possible. and a semi would be great and then anything can happen. And just finally then, we ask the question, when will an African nation win the World Cup? If not this time, when, Stephen? It's coming. I truly believe it's coming. I think, you know, the last 45 minutes of conversation reflects that. I think we're seeing growth. We're seeing the infrastructure building and building and building. We're seeing talented players now coming and choosing to play for the African nations.
48:58Semenyo being a great example of that. I think if it's not this year, I do think within the next two World Cups, we will see an African nation lift it. Gabby? Yeah, I go along with that. I would have said give another two World Cups and then start catching up and bridging the gap in terms of just facilities and everything that goes with it. So I will say that this will open up a lot more. I think we saw Morocco the last time. Now I think there'll be two or three involved in getting as far as possible. And then you give it a couple more World Cups. I think once the infrastructure catches up, there can be an African team to win it.
49:31We will see. Could it happen this time around? in New Jersey for the final of the World Cup 2026. Stephen Kolker, Gabriel Zaquani, thank you both very much. Thank you. Absolutely. And that's all from More Than The Score for today. Thanks to Gabriel Zaquani and Stephen Kolker for joining us. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to follow and subscribe to More Than The Score. We also love hearing your thoughts on the stories we cover. You can email morethanthescore at bbc.co.uk or visit bbcworldservice.com forward slash morethanthescore to find out how to contact us via WhatsApp. But until next time, from me, Lee James, it's goodbye for now.
50:11Hello, it's Valerie Sanderson from the Global News Podcast again. I hope you enjoyed this bonus episode. To hear more stories from the World Cup and beyond, search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts. I'm Kai Wright. I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from The Guardian. We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting. We don't have billionaires telling us what to say. Stateside with Kyan Carter will come out three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, starting May 13th.
50:46Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
From the publisher
Half a century on from Pele's infamous prophecy that an African nation would win the World Cup before the year 2000, could the continent finally deliver its first World Cup in 2026? In a special bonus episode from the More than the Score podcast, the BBC’s Lee James is joined by former Democratic Republic of Congo captain Gabriel Zakuani and former Sierra Leone captain Steven Caulker to discuss the hopes of the ten African sides competing in the tournament.
They discuss the impact Morocco reaching the semi-finals in 2022 has had, the strength of Senegal and give their thoughts on when an African nation could win a World Cup.
Senegal’s Iliman Ndiaye tells the podcast they’re going to the tournament with the aim of winning it and they never fear anyone.
Former Nigeria captain Sunday Oliseh tells us it’s possible an African team could go one better than Morocco did in 2022 and that he wants to see an African team win the tournament in his lifetime. Plus, we also hear from Ghanian legend Micheal Essien.
More than the Score brings you more than the men’s football World Cup - the new teams, standout stars, trends and fandoms shaping the tournament in ways the stats don’t show. With 48 teams competing across Mexico, the US and Canada, BBC World Service promises to take you deeper - from the group stages to the final. Search for More than the Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
