Hong Kong fire kills at least 128 people

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service.

0:47I'm Celia Hatton and at 16 hours GMT on Friday the 28th of November, these are our main stories. Hong Kong's fire service says smoke alarms weren't working properly in the high-rise blocks where over 120 people died in a fire. President Trump says he's permanently pausing migration from a host of countries after this week's National Guard shooting. Thousands in Indonesia are trying to figure out what to do after floods and landslides force them to leave their homes. Also in this podcast, the Pope is trying to bridge divides within Christianity while he's on an official visit to Turkey. And she was very much a kind of party clubbing nocturnal energy.

1:34People kind of found their way to her because she was her own walking advert. We remember Pam Hogg, the Scottish fashion designer whose eccentric outfits were worn by stars including Bjork and Lady Gaga.

1:53We go first to the latest on the devastating fire in Hong Kong that started on Wednesday and ripped through seven buildings in a high-rise housing complex. Officials now say at least 128 people have died and rescue efforts to try to find survivors have ended. But around 200 people are still missing. Speaking at a news conference, the head of fire Services and Yong Yong-kin told reporters that alarms were not working properly in the tower blocks. Some have pointed out that the fire alarms in several blocks did not go off. Our fire safety inspection team was deployed yesterday to inspect the fire alarm systems across eight buildings.

2:37We found that these fire alarms were malfunctioning. We will be taking enforcement actions over this. Local media are reporting that the authorities have arrested several more people in connection with the fire. Crowds have been gathering at a nearby community hall that has been open to families looking for missing loved ones. Eliza Chung is from the Hong Kong Red Cross, which has been helping the victims' relatives. A lot of them are in the state of shock, especially when they first knew of the updates of the family members, if the news came out to be very bad. Of course, they are also in this condition, a state of finding it very hard to accept the reality.

3:15And our team, the volunteers and the staff are accompanying them. Although it's a very painful process and moment, but we want them to feel that they are not alone. Danny Vincent gave us this update from Hong Kong. I'm in Tai Po, very close to the scene where the fire took place. I think people here in Hong Kong are extremely saddened by what's happened. There was always an expectation, amongst some people at least, that the death toll would rise. And sadly, many people think it will continue to rise. Because sadly, the people that were and are continuing to be missing, there's around 200 people that are considered missing at the moment.

3:56There are fears that those people were trapped inside and unable to escape and simply didn't survive. Now here on the ground, many of the people I've been speaking to, they're of course grieving. Many that I've spoken to, new residents inside the building or they've spent time in there or they're familiar with the area. Some people had no connection but simply come together to show their respects and experience this tragedy. But there was also a sense of anger. There's sorrow and grief, but there's also anger. Many people are beginning to ask questions. They want to know why this fire happened, why it spread so quickly.

4:37if anything is being hidden. Now, the authorities have launched an investigation. They say it will take between two to four weeks. But some of the people I've been speaking to, they see this as a test of the government because they simply want answers. Danny, I mean, you've mentioned that anger. We're also hearing that, for example, the fire alarms weren't working in the building. We're getting some indications of the lack of fire protections in place in these buildings. Are you hearing anger around that kind of news that's emerging? I'm hearing that. On the ground, the majority of people I've spoken to, they're standing silently and they're mourning, they're grieving, they're taking this situation in.

5:26But there are people that are angry and are making these type of allegations. I've heard from a number of people that have said that they've heard the fire alarms weren't working. that they're asking questions. Most people say they want to be neutral. They're waiting for information from the authorities, but there certainly is that suspicion, if you like. And like one individual said to me that this is really a test for the government. They want to wait to see what information comes out, but they also are concerned that perhaps someone should be held accountable for this. And this was more than just an innocent accident.

6:08It was something that potentially could have been prevented. Danny Vincent. The shooting of two U.S. National Guard soldiers in Washington in the run-up to Thanksgiving has sent shockwaves around the U.S. As we reported in our earlier podcast, one of the soldiers, Sarah Beckstrom, has died from her wounds while the other is in a critical condition. The suspected gunman is a 29-year-old Afghan national living in the U.S. who had previously worked for the CIA in Afghanistan. Although the motive for the shooting isn't known, President Trump has now said he will permanently pause migration from Afghanistan and another 18 countries.

6:48He also attacked the U.S. immigration policy for not working. Jeremy McKinney is president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association. He defended the immigration system. These Afghans that cooperated with our military underwent the most intensive screening process and vetting process of any immigrant that decides to relocate to the United States. So it's very difficult for myself as an immigration attorney to conceive how it could get any more intense. but we shall see. It's a sad day for our country because one of these soldiers has died but it's an especially sad day for migrants in this country because once again they're being scapegoated.

7:37When you say an incredibly tough vetting process, what exactly happens? With the program for Afghans especially, they go through years of administrative processing so They are interviewed, they are fingerprinted, and those go through fairly exhaustive, not only criminal, but also national security checks that are all done outside of the United States. So with many people in our immigration process, those types of background checks are done while the person is in the United States. But with this process, which in every instance was over a year, if not multiple years, that process is done outside of the United States before the person is allowed in.

8:30And so it is not until they've gone through this intense screening that they are permitted in. It now seems that the administration in the US will look to review the status of people from not just Afghanistan, but 18 other countries, ones it considers high risk, Cuba and Haiti, Somalia, Venezuela and so on. What are you expecting to see in regards to that? I would assume that they would call in individuals for re-interview, perhaps for more biometric screenings. I honestly don't know what our government could do beyond those two steps. I guess primarily what they will be looking for, since I seriously doubt that they're going to find any evidence of any type of national security or terrorist background because they've already gone through a screening.

9:27I would assume that they may be looking for something else to use as an excuse to take away that person's status. For example, if the person left something out on their application, you know, they'll be accused of having willfully omitted information or misrepresenting information. I mean, we'll just have to see. The point is, is that this is scapegoating, pure and simple. Jeremy McKinney speaking to James Copnell. To Southeast Asia now, it's been battered by storms over the past week. And all that rain is causing deadly floods and landslides across the region. More than 140 people are confirmed dead in Thailand.

10:13And on the Indonesian island of Sumatra, more than 170 people are dead and dozens more unaccounted for. This man described how his home was flooded.

10:26The water started to rise in the morning, but it was slow. Then suddenly it got so high and fast. My house has a second floor, so we evacuated upstairs. We're running out of supplies and food. We're trying to find some out here so we can be safe. Our reporter Astudestra Ajung Rastri is in the Indonesian capital, Jakarta. We have spoken to the search and rescue team, and they say they are working day and night to get to the affected area. And it's very difficult because in North Sumatra, for example, the flood has started from three days ago, But until now, the search team still trying to go into the worst affected area.

11:10This particular city, Sibolga, for example, a lot of death casualties reported from that area. But it is a hilly and mountainous area and it's also a coastal area, which makes it very difficult because the sea level is also quite dangerous nowadays. What about the survivors whose homes have been destroyed? What's happening to them? Yeah, so the worst heated area in the Sumatra Island is about three provinces, the North Sumatra, West Sumatra and Aceh. So now each of the disaster relief has been tackled by the local government. And each of these provinces now looking at tens of thousands of people displaced from their homes.

11:59And they're setting up shelters in schools, in buildings that are safe from the floods. But aid coming to that area is very difficult. We heard from people, locals, that are trying to get food for themselves. They go to the market and it's cars. And even if there are some food that they can buy, the price is also doubled. So it's very difficult. OK. And also, I mean, I mentioned just a moment ago, it's not just Indonesia. Is it several countries have been affected by storms and flooding? Can you give us a sense of the destruction across the region? Yeah, Southeast Asia just experienced one of the worst floods in the region in Thailand.

12:42And it's 300 years ago that this bad rain had happened in their country. And it's also the same within Indonesia. We're talking about locals telling us that rain like this never happened in the past decades. And we've also seen reports from Vietnam and Malaysia. Their riverbanks cannot hold the rain and tens of thousands displaced as well in those countries. And now at the latest, we also see Sri Lanka now battling with storms. So yeah, this has been quite a devastating week for the region. Astudestra Adrinrastre. 70 species of sharks and rays are getting better international protection in what conservationists are saying is a historical win.

13:31Signatories to the Convention on International Trade and Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, also known as CITES, have agreed the restrictions at a meeting in Uzbekistan. One of the people at the summit is Luke Warwick, a marine biologist and director of shark and ray conservation at the Wildlife Conservation Society. Ben James asked him for his reaction to the agreement. Some huge changes today for sharks and rays in terms of the ones that are going to be protected by this international convention and include species such as the whale shark, obviously the largest fish in the ocean, manta rays and their close cousins, the mobula rays, and the iconic oceanic white tip shark, formerly one of the most abundant open ocean sharks on the planet that has declined sadly by over 90 % worldwide.

14:17Sadly, many of these 70 species are already critically endangered or endangered with extinction. So right on the edge of extinction forever, this is kind of one of the last chances we have to save them. So what will change? The most important thing that happened today is for the first time, CITES has recognised that some species shouldn't be traded anymore. It's offered Appendix 1, its strongest type of protection, two species such as the whale shark, manta ray and oceanic white tip. That will phase out commercial use of these species, which is crucial. We really need these species to be treated like marine wildlife, like whales and turtles, and not as a food resource.

14:54And is that the heart of why they're threatened that they are used as food? Yeah, there are some shark and ray species that can be managed and fished sustainably around the world, but these species aren't. These species grow so incredibly slowly, much like animals you'd think of as protected on land, like bears or big cats. However, they haven't really been managed that way. They haven't really been managed at all, and that's led to these catastrophic declines. So it's fantastic to see the international community step up here and offer them that protection as the iconic ocean wildlife they really are.

15:24This doesn't affect what happens within countries, though, does it? this is just about international trade. So a country individually can decide this is absolutely fine to continue hunting these species. So that's exactly right. And we see different things in different countries around the world. The one thing about CITES listings is because of that teeth, it really does have an impact in many countries where they really want to act. They know there's compliance measures if they don't. So CITES won't deal with that directly. But the trigger that this action can create, really, this is just a start.

15:53The measures here today are incredible and it's fantastic to see them. The hard work starts after this. Marine biologist Luke Warwick. Still to come, the creator of Wikipedia says he doesn't feel threatened by right-wing critics, including Elon Musk. Funding is from the general public and every time Elon rants about us, we see a surge in donations. So it's a lot of noise, but Elon's not as powerful as he may think he is.

16:28If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

17:071700 years ago, a council of early Christian leaders met in what is now the Turkish town of Iznik to lay out the core beliefs of their religion. Today, Pope Leo travelled to the spot where that meeting took place for a special service alongside the spiritual leader of the Eastern Orthodox Church's, Patriarch Bartholomew.

17:36The Pope and Patriarch were welcomed by a choir. And when he spoke, Pope Leo repeated the message he'd shared with Turkey's president a day earlier, that religion should bring people together, not divide them. We must strongly reject the use of religion for justifying war, violence, or any form of fundamentalism or fanaticism. Instead, the paths to follow are those of fraternal encounter, dialogue, and cooperation. Reporter Emily Wither is in ISNIC. She spoke to me just after the ceremony finished. The ceremony is hugely symbolic. It's the main reason why Pope Leo wanted to come to Turkey for his first overseas trip.

18:23He was honoring a promise that the late Pope Francis made, who said that he wanted to visit, before he became too unwell to do so, this town to mark this very important anniversary where 1700 years ago the first Ecumenical Council of Christianity took place. This meeting of church authorities in the fourth century made a written declaration of Christian beliefs called the Nicene Creed. And that is still recited in churches around the world today. And we've just seen Christian leaders from all across the Middle East reciting the Nicene Creed together. And the reason that's so symbolic is because it really pushes this message of unity that Pope Leo has said he wanted to be the key theme of this trip.

19:04He stood alongside the patriarch Bartholomew. He's the spiritual leader of the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church. And it's symbolic because the two churches are split in 1054. The Orthodox Church and the Catholic Christian Church have been split for hundreds of years. But in recent years, there has been talk of greater unity. And to see all the leaders together today, we've had Christian leaders from Egypt, Israel, from Turkey, from Syria, standing and reciting the Nicene Creed is a real symbolic sign of unity at very difficult times. That's the message that Pope Leo wanted to deliver. So a meeting of quite some significance then.

19:44Where is the Pope heading next? So he has a few more days still here in Istanbul. He also wants to talk about greater dialogue between Christians and Muslims. So Turkey is a Muslim majority country. There's less than 1 % of the population here is Christian. So tomorrow he will visit the Blue Mosque, the Sultanahmet Mosque in Istanbul. And then he will also hold a mass in a stadium before going on to Lebanon. And in Lebanon, he's going to continue to talk about peace and unity and deliver this message to the dwindling Christian community in Lebanon that they are supported and that they are seen.

20:22Emily Wither. The co-founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales, is not your average tech bro. He's not a billionaire, though the website he started in the early 2000s has become part of many people's daily lives. But in a world of AI and online polarization, the ideals that Wikipedia is based on are under threat. The BBC's Chris Vallance asked Jimmy Wales whether he worried that AI could harm the integrity of Wikipedia. The community is already saying they see some AI slop coming in where people edit an article and they look at it and they're like, yeah, this looks like AI and they investigate and it's got hallucinations in it.

21:05And, you know, if you tried to do it in some sort of massive wholesale way where you're going to upload a million articles a day, well, the community would just block you very quickly. Like that level of activity would just be immediately like, hold on, that's like spamming us. It's complete nonsense. One of the things that's happened in recent months almost is that Wikipedia has become the focus of attacks from the political right. One of those leading the attacks is a co-founder of Wikipedia. You might dispute that. I know you disagree with some aspects of it. Larry Sanger. He was recently on Tucker Carlson laying out the case against you.

21:42You look at only the sources that are permitted to be used in Wikipedia, so mostly secondary sources, and they are mostly left-wing or center. Generally speaking, there is now a blacklist called the perennial sources page that contains lists of dozens of conservative sources that are just not allowed. Well, that's just false. The only way to make that seem true is if you think the Wall Street Journal and the Telegraph and The Economist are left wing rags, like it's completely bonkers to say that, right? There are some sites that are frowned on as sources, but it has nothing to do with their political leanings.

22:30It just has to do with that they're not very good. And if we have a potential source that contains misinformation and errors on a regular basis, you just have to say, yeah, actually, I don't think I really want that to be the basis of an encyclopedia entry. Elon Musk was accusing you of being Wokipedia. He wants to set up his own version, Grokipedia. Does that bother you? I'm not that worried about it. I mean, his approach doesn't look very promising to me. I think he probably is overestimating the ability of AI to write encyclopedia articles. I mean, we know that it's not possible. Do you feel under pressure from the right at the moment and from the US administration?

23:15I mean, does that feel to you like something that is a threat to Wikipedia? No, not at all. We've designed everything to maximize our intellectual independence. And so funding is from the general public. And every time Elon rants about us, we see a surge in donations. So, you know, whatever, you know, we don't have any funding from the U.S. federal government. We don't have funding from any governments. And we're a very dispersed, diverse community who are just loving our hobby of making an encyclopedia. So it's a lot of noise. But Elon's not as powerful as he may think he is. He can say what he wants.

23:51I don't care. Wikipedia's Jimmy Wales. Now, three Austrian nuns in their 80s who ran away from an old people's home to return to the convent that they'd been forced out of have been told they can stay there until further notice. But the church authorities have stipulated certain conditions, as Bethany Bell reports from Vienna. Sister Bernadette, Sister Regina and Sister Rita were the last three nuns at their convent just outside Salzburg until December 2023, when they say they were forced to leave against their will and placed in a care home. In September this year, they moved back in with the help of former students and a locksmith.

24:36This angered church officials who wanted them to return to the care home. Since then, supporters have been posting videos of the nuns' daily lives at the convent, including Sister Rita's workouts with a sledgehammer and boxing gloves. They now have over 100 ,000 followers. After a standoff of almost three months, church officials say the nuns can stay at the convent until further notice, but only if they give up their social media activities. The nuns have not yet said if they agree to the conditions. In September, the nuns told the BBC they were determined to stay at the convent, where they've spent most of their lives.

25:18Sister Bernadette told me she would rather die in an alpine meadow than in the old people's home. Bethany Bell in Vienna. Pam Hogg, this Scottish fashion designer, has died. She was known for her eccentric and outlandish designs, which have been worn by models and pop stars, including Lady Gaga, Rihanna, Bjork and Kylie Minogue. Pam Hogg was understood to be in her 60s. She told a British newspaper a few years ago that she didn't publicly disclose her age. She spoke about one of her first influences that sparked her love for fashion. My dad was so inventive and he had this garden shed and he would make, you know, the most incredible things.

26:04I mean, for Christmases and birthdays, he would come and present me with something and say no one else has got one of these so instead of feeling like you were the odd one out like you've not got the latest this and that you felt really special and that is what has driven me doing my things I'm I'm sort of like giving something because that's what he gave me. Jane Hill spoke to the fashion broadcaster and writer Karen Franklin who knew Pam Hogwell. Pam just had a kind of magical lust for life and she visually was very stunning when she stepped into a room you couldn't not notice her but also her laugh her engagement with people it was clear that she loved people she just was one of those people with charisma but it wasn't superficial It wasn't surface.

26:56It was really underpinned by a very kind of pro-social motivation for justice and fairness. And she was quite an unforgettable energy. You paint a wonderfully vivid picture there. I mean, if you think of Pam Hogg, you think colour, both in terms of what she designed and the way she presented herself. Was that deliberate? Did she love the use of colour? Did it just go with her personality? What drove that? She worked in such a way that her clothes, which she designed pretty much on her own and made on her own, were pieces of walking art. They weren't just sort of trend orientated, mass produced in a way to kind of roll out.