Kremlin talks on how to end Ukraine war

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service.

0:47I'm Valerie Sanderson and at 16 Hours GMT on Tuesday 2nd December, these are our main stories. The US envoy Steve Witkoff and President Trump's son-in-law Jared Kushner are in Moscow, meeting President Putin for talks on an amended peace plan to end the war in Ukraine. We're in Ukraine to gauge the mood of people there following Russia's full-scale invasion in 2022. Also, more than 700 people have died in severe flooding in Indonesia. Plus, on the final day of his trip to Lebanon, Pope Leo holds a mass in Beirut and makes this appeal to the region. The Middle East needs new approaches in order to reject the mindset of revenge and violence.

1:32And why conches found in Spain may be some of the world's oldest musical instruments.

1:46We start with the war in Ukraine and ongoing international efforts to try to end the fighting there following the Russian invasion in February 2022. As we record this podcast, President Trump's special envoy Steve Witkoff is in Moscow for talks with President Putin, where he's expected to present an amended peace plan after the original 28-point proposal was rejected both by Ukraine and its European partners. They'd argued it was overly weighted towards Russian demands. We asked our Russia editor Steve Rosenberg whether Mr Putin is likely to accept this latest peace plan. From what President Zelensky was saying yesterday in Paris, there are tough issues that still have to be worked through.

2:29Top of the list, it seems, is the issue of territory. Remember that up to this point, Russia has been demanding that Ukraine simply hand over those parts of the Donbass in eastern Ukraine that Ukraine still controls. In other words, areas that Russia has not been able to seize militarily in four years of war. That has been unacceptable to Kiev. And up to this point, President Putin has shown little sign of wanting to compromise or make any concessions. Having said that, over the last few days, we've seen intense diplomacy. From the moment that the Americans handed over that 28-point plan, draft peace plan, to the Ukrainians, just under two weeks ago, we've seen U.S.-Ukrainian talks in Geneva.

3:14Then in Florida, we have Steve Witkoff in Moscow today for talks with President Putin. Last Friday, we saw the Hungarian Prime Minister, Viktor Orban, flying into Moscow for talks with President Putin, offering Budapest as the venue for possible peace summit or peace talks. So the feeling is that perhaps there has been some movement. And what is most interesting, I think, is that over the last few days, we've seen very little information coming up from either side. It was interesting, one Russian newspaper today was talking fog of diplomacy and suggesting that that was a sign of some imminent diplomatic breakthrough or at least movement towards one.

3:58So we'll have to wait and see, of course. As I say, we don't know what is in this amended peace plan and we don't know what President Putin's attitude to it will be. Now, of course, you live there. Does the invasion of Ukraine still enjoy general support amongst ordinary Russians, do you think, despite the estimated more than a million Russian troops that have been killed or injured? I wouldn't say support. I mean, I detect a huge fatigue across the country. Most of the people we speak to, whether in towns or villages or cities, say they just wish this was over because I think more and more people in Russia feel affected by what's happening in terms of many people have sons or brothers or cousins who are fighting in Ukraine.

4:44and also the economic consequences of four years of war are being felt more acutely now by Russians. Sanctions have had an effect. Taxes are being put up in Russia from next year. So more and more Russians are going to be affected by the worsening economic situation, which is a direct result of the decision to launch the full-scale invasion of Ukraine nearly four years ago. Our Russia editor, Steve Rosenberg. Finding any common ground between Ukraine and Russia is an ongoing challenge. President Zelensky has been very clear that ceding territory remains the most difficult issue. Speaking at a news conference in Dublin and Ireland, he was asked what he hoped would come out of the talks in Moscow.

5:25It's important that this should be all open and fair and just. There would be no game behind Ukraine's back. Nothing would be decided without Ukraine, about Ukraine, about our future. If we're talking about the guarantees for security of Ukraine, and there is a signal about the frame document, then we have to clearly understand what it's going to be like and how it's going to work. At least basic things. Because, you see, it's not an experiment for us. We're talking about our people, our living people. Well, Ukraine has always rejected Russian demands to give up the eastern regions of Luhansk and Donetsk, also known as the Donbass.

6:08But seizing all that territory remains one of President Putin's main goals. So, what are the views of those on the ground in Ukraine on the ongoing peace talks? Our correspondent Jonathan Beale travelled to Ukraine to gauge the mood among soldiers and civilians.

6:26We're heading east, where Russia's still advancing. towards Donetsk, the region which may decide whether these US-led peace talks fail or succeed.

6:41This is the last stop before the Donetsk region, where trains are no longer running. Ukraine is still defending that territory, but President Putin's made clear he wants it all. This may be the biggest obstacle in the US-led peace talks. On the platform, soldiers and civilians mingle, waiting for the equivalent of their last train out of Dodge. Among them, Andre and his girlfriend, Polina. The end of the line is also the end of their brief encounter, a final hug and kiss before their separation. When will you see each other again? We don't know. Polina's returning home to the relative safety of Kyiv.

7:30Andrei's going back to the front line. And he doesn't see an end to the war in sight.

7:40He describes the peace talks as chatter, just chatter. It's very hard, really very hard. Denis, who's been in the army for two years, tells me everyone's tired, mentally and physically. But as for President Putin's demand for Ukraine to give up the Donbass, he insists it's not going to happen.

8:07No one's giving it up. Nobody will give Putin Donbass. No way. It's our land. But there's been a dramatic rise of desertions.

8:21Serhi, not his real name, is now in hiding. He's just one of hundreds of thousands of cases of reported desertion, with the largest increase this year. Serhi says he was sent to fight near Pokrovsk with a unit that was badly led. We had no morale or fighting spirit. Even if we had enough weapons, there weren't enough people to operate them. There was simply no one to fight. I joined to serve, not to run. We witnessed dozens, old and young, arriving at a reception centre just over the border in Mosevac. There's a steady stream of people coming in who've used the fog as cover to travel out of the Donetsk region.

9:07They say at this reception centre where they're being processed, they get around 200 people a day. For 69-year-old Vera, life had become unbearable. They bombed almost every day, every single day. Civilian areas, schools, houses were destroyed so badly that they can't be rebuilt.

9:35Alexander says it's too dangerous to stay. He thinks it's time to make a deal.

9:43Russia's demands are probably unacceptable for us, but I don't know. Maybe personally I would already agree to those terms. Ina says all she wants is peace. She fled with her five children aged between nine months and 12 years old. She tried to tell them the explosions they heard from their cellar were just fireworks. She doesn't expect they'll ever go back. They're already looking to rebuild their lives elsewhere. Jonathan Beale in Ukraine. The number of dead in the floods which struck Indonesia last week has now reached more than 700, with rescue workers still battling to reach affected areas.

10:29The government's disaster agency says several hundred people remain missing and a million have had to evacuate their homes. The catastrophic floods have also hit Sri Lanka and Thailand and the combined death toll across the region is now more than 1 ,200 people. Our BBC Indonesian service got through to one person in the worst affected region on the island of Sumatra in western Indonesia. Lodawik Marpang is a resident in central Tapanuli area, also known as Tapteng, which remains cut off.

11:02Tapteng is completely paralysed today. It's very frightening. The electricity is out, there's no internet access, food supplies are running low and there's no clean water. The number of missing has reached hundreds and the bodies found are already in the dozens and this number will keep rising. Road access to Tapteng is cut off. We should be in a state of emergency. It must immediately be declared a national disaster. People have started looting everywhere. It's extremely tense in Tapteng. From the bottom of our hearts we are asking for help from anyone. We got an update on the A later situation from our correspondent in Jakarta, Astudestra Ajinkrastri.

11:39A lot of these areas are still isolated. Aid hasn't come through to their villages. In some part of the North Sumatra area, people have to loot stores and warehouses, not because they want to incite violence, but because they are in desperate needs of food. So tell us more about what the authorities are actually doing. This is a week after the disaster and they are still trying to go to the most isolated areas. Heavy machineries can be seen all across the northern part of Sumatra. They're trying to remove the muds that are sometimes even as high as the waste. The broken bridges have been now rebuilt.

12:23They're building emergency bridges because in places where they're most isolated, it. The only means to go there is by those bridges, and you have to bring the aids manually by foot, or at best by motorcycle, because cars cannot go through. But of course, as you can hear from a lot of testimonies that we have gathered, many people claim they haven't received any food, while the food stock in their villages has run out pretty fast. They have to feed many people who also lack of clean water, medical supplies, they don't have clothes. The Navy is trying to provide food from the ocean because a lot of these affected areas are coastal cities.

13:11They also have deployed helicopters and military planes to airdrop those aid. But many of these people have to walk several hours just to go to the points where the aids are dropped. And in those places, they even have to fight it over with other villages. So we're seeing people are still in dire needs of basic necessities, and the government is racing to try to fulfil it. Is there much criticism of the government that they weren't ready for this, not enough preparations were in place? Before the floods, we've seen that northern Sumatra has received a heavy amount of rainfall, which is unusual for Indonesia.

13:58The heavy downpour was double the normal amounts in some places, even four times higher than the normal amount of rainfall. But then there's no preparation. People also claim that they are not warned enough. Many of them are still staying at their homes, which is in the slope of mountainous area. So when the landslide happened, everything just crumbled down from the forest that is in the upper part of those areas. Astridestra Ajankrastri in the Indonesian capital, Jakarta. And for more on one of today's big stories, you can go on YouTube, search for BUC News, click on the logo, then choose podcasts and Global News Podcast.

14:39There's a news story available every weekday. The wife of the disgraced former president of Honduras, Juan Orlando Hernandez, has said he has been released from a prison in the United States following a pardon from President Trump on drug smuggling and weapons charges. Mr Hernandez was charged with being at the centre of a conspiracy to smuggle 400 tonnes of cocaine into the United States during more than a decade of involvement with organised crime. President Trump said he would pardon him last week. From the capital of Honduras, Tegucigalpa, we'll grant us more. Juan Orlando Hernández's wife, the former First Lady of Honduras, Ana García Carias, has kept up a relentless campaign claiming his innocence from the moment he was arrested and extradited to the United States in 2022.

15:26Now she has said via social media that her husband is a free man. She posted a screenshot from the website of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, which appeared to confirm the former president was released from a prison in West Virginia on Monday. Hours earlier, at least one local media outlet in Honduras had reported the same information from the family's lawyer. The release is yet to be confirmed by the White House and there has been no sighting of Mr Hernández himself. Ms García Carias thanked President Trump in her posts for giving her family back their hope and recognising a truth we have always known, as she put it.

16:05Mr Hernandez was sentenced to 45 years in a US prison last year on drug smuggling and weapons charges after a long case by the Drug Enforcement Administration and US prosecutors. Will Grant. Hong Kong's leader John Lee says there are serious problems in the territory's construction industry as he announced an independent inquiry into last week's apartment complex fire in which 156 people are now known to have died. Accusations the fire was spread by flammable construction materials have sparked widespread anger. Mr Lee said it was vital to uncover the truth. I call for thorough investigation and serious reform.

16:44We will overcome the obstacles of vested interests, pursue accountability, regardless of who he or she is. We must uncover the truth, ensure that justice is served, let the deceased rest in peace and provide comfort to the living. Hundreds of people attended a memorial service on Tuesday to mark one week since the blaze. Residents were reportedly told they faced relatively low risks when they flagged concerns about fire hazards more than a year ago. Martin Yip is in Taipo, where the fire began. For those who have lost their lives in this huge fire, today is the seventh day since death ritual for them and is particularly important in southern China culture.

17:34Earlier in the afternoon, just outside of Wangfu court, two separate religious rituals were performed. Hundreds of family members attended the ritual, which was hosted by Buddhist monks followed by Taoist priests. And they laid flowers, they burnt paper money and they laughed in obvious sadness. Police are still continuing with their search effort inside of the charred buildings and at the same time they're now asking for members of the public to provide whatever potential evidence they could have to assist this manslaughter investigation. Also the police are planning to reopen two of the buildings, those who survived, to come back in and try to salvage whatever they have from their homes.

18:18Martin Yip. Still to come. What's triggered concern is the new order making it mandatory on every device, old and new. We look at a row in India over an order that all smartphones should have a pre-installed government cybersecurity app.

18:43If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

19:21And now to Lebanon.

19:35Sounds from Beirut, where around 150 ,000 people have attended a mass held by Pope Leo on the waterfront where a blast killed more than 250 people five years ago. The Pope offered prayers for the dead and called for the region to move away from the horror of war. The Middle East needs new approaches in order to reject the mindset of revenge and violence, to overcome political, social and religious divisions, and to open new chapters in the name of reconciliation and peace. Pope Leo also called on Lebanon's leaders to tackle years of political and economic crisis. I got more from our correspondent in Beirut, Hugo Bechega.

20:20This was a visit in which the theme was very much a message of peace, unity and coexistence. And this was at the heart of what the Pope had to say this morning. He again urged Lebanon's leaders to come together to unite, to try to solve the country's problems. He said the beauty of Lebanon had been darkened by poverty, violence, conflict and economic crisis. And obviously this is a country that has been engulfed by multiple crises in recent years. And this visit comes at a very difficult, delicate moment for Lebanon amid fears of another possible escalation in the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah.

21:01And obviously these concerns have exacerbated internal divisions as well. And Hugo, that massive explosion five years ago on Beirut's waterfront, still very much in people's minds, isn't it? Yeah, and the Pope led silent prayers today at the site of the explosion. And for many Lebanese, you know, the port and, you know, the grain silos that remain destroyed are a symbol of the country's problems. We're talking about a huge economic crisis, political paralysis, corruption, mismanagement, and obviously conflict. So this was, you know, at the center of this visit by the Pope. And, you know, it was very significant for the Christian population of this country.

21:49Obviously, a third of Lebanon's population is Christian. But I think this visit was framed by many here as a moment of national importance, national unit. We've seen those Lebanese leaders from different communities, sects, united. And this was very much the message that the Pope had to share with the Lebanese, a message that this is the moment of a new chapter in terms of reconciliation and peace. Hugo Bacchega in Lebanon. Zambia experienced its worst environmental disaster earlier this year when a dam collapsed at a Chinese copper mine, leading to toxic waste, including heavy metals, pouring into the surrounding waterways and farmland.

22:35China is one of the biggest foreign investors in the region, and it's often framed its relationship with Africa as a win-win, an opportunity for China to access critical minerals while African countries industrialise and boost their economies. Our Africa correspondent Mahini Jones travelled to Zambia's Copperbelt in the north of the country to discover what this incident tells us about Chinese influence there.

23:02I'm walking to meet Frederick, a local farmer whose crops have been affected by the spill. I'm surrounded by fields. I can see him hoeing in the distance. Some of the fields are green and lush, but a lot of the nearby ones are completely burnt out. There's dried leaves on the foot. Nothing seems to be growing here. I'm 72 years old, man. My legs are still pain, very much pain, which is very difficult to move. I used to walk with a stick. Have you been to see a doctor about your leg? The doctor says maybe if we are using this contaminated water, maybe it can cause this. And by a stream at the bottom of Frederick's farm it's connected to the Kafui River, which was polluted in February.

23:46And the water looks clear, serene. You'd never know. A massive chemical spill had happened here earlier this year. But the tell is that you can't see any living life here. And the villagers say this stream used to be teeming with fish and now there's nothing. Frederick says he was given just$700 compensation by Sinometals, the company responsible for the spill and a subsidiary of a state-owned Chinese firm. Some commentators have suggested the spill illustrates some of the downsides of Chinese investment in Africa. We've just driven down a dirt road off of the main road, somewhere private, so we can interview a worker from Sinometals who's agreed to speak to us on the condition of anonymity.