OpenAI warns of dozens more potential bot hacks

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0:30Listen to Choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen. Odoo, providing tools for businesses across industries into one fully integrated platform. Whatever your business needs, Odoo is committed to providing it. Learn more at odoo.com. This is the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Nick Miles and in the early hours of Sunday the 27th of September these are our main stories OpenAI informs dozens of global institutions that their website may have been accessed improperly by its artificial intelligence agents that went rogue. President Trump rejects an Iranian proposal to fully reopen the vital Strait of Hormuz.

1:18We hear what's blocking progress and a contentious march in Northern Ireland looks set to take place in the latest twist in a court battle that's seen sectarian tensions rise. Also in this podcast, Bangladesh launches a nationwide vaccination campaign to combat its worst ever measles outbreak. And it's trying to basically mimic the ritual that we enjoy from shopping, the satisfaction and the rush we get after we place an order without us actually having to pay for it. A fake purchase, but a real dopamine hit. Once again, the alarming activities of artificial intelligence agents, bots, which can act autonomously, are dominating the headlines.

2:04OpenAI says it's warned dozens of organisations around the world, including government bodies, that its software may have interfered with their websites without its knowledge. This announcement comes days after the Australian Prime Minister, Anthony Abanizzi, said that OpenAI agents had hacked into his government's healthcare system. With more on these latest developments, here's our North America technology correspondent, Lily Jamali. OpenAI is saying that its AI agents meddled with a whole host of websites that belong to governments, universities and public agencies, along with other institutions around the world.

2:42here in the U.S. Some of the websites that were included here were those operated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, which is our main securities regulator, the Department of Education. And what's interesting here is that the meddling sometimes involved the agents using pretty extreme methods. So they cited an example of one autonomously retrieving U.S. census data using online credentials that it found on its own. We're just hearing one incident after the next. I mean, just today, there were sort of three major stories in this vein just involving OpenAI. And it just feels like this is snowballing in a way that is making a lot of regulators very uncomfortable, making a lot of members of the public ask, what's going on here?

3:28Does OpenAI have this under control? You know, sometimes we talk about these rogue agents, but these things are programmed by people at a company And so I think that's where the concern lies is how are these things being programmed and why does this continue to happen even after we learned about hugging face in that breach you mentioned in Australia? I'm not sure how proactive some of these revelations really were. Some of it was the result of, I think, reporting by journalists that pressured them to some degree. Something we haven't even gotten to is the fact that OpenAI said agents leaked a couple dozen images from users of its flagship product, chat GPT, and the latest example of this kind of behavior.

4:09But, you know, we heard from the Australian prime minister this week saying they should have come forward more quickly. Sam Altman, the boss over at OpenAI, said today on social media that company hasn't disclosed incidents as fast as they would have liked. He's the boss of the company. So if he wants something to happen, it will happen. Lily Jamali in San Francisco. So how do these attacks happen and just how dangerous are they? One of the first breaches to make headlines, which Lily mentioned, was when an open AI bot autonomously hacked the company Hugging Face. META, which stands for Model Evaluation and Threat Research, is a California-based group that's been investigating that incident.

4:51It found that hundreds of AI agents had organised and named themselves and were speaking to each other in a chat room. Meta's president, Chris Painter, told Rebecca Kesby about the research. I would characterise these as loss of control incidents. It is very alarming to see signs of AI systems trying to figure out how to hide their tracks. And I think you are right to worry that as they get more capable, they will get better at hiding their tracks. Our investigators depended a lot on this fact that when you went in to do the investigation, you could see what's called the chain of thought, right, where the AI systems kind of think to themselves on a scratch pad about what action they're going to take next.

5:34One thing that I think is an additional worry here is even that could become less faithful or informative about what AI agents are thinking. There's this idea inside of the industry that it's possible that soon we could have AI systems where to make them more capable, they move from reasoning in words to reasoning in numbers entirely. And then when we send investigators in in the future to look at these incidents, when we say like, OK, what was the AI agent thinking in this case? We'll find like just a whole big room of numbers and no words about its reasoning process. I sometimes describe it as like a gun that you can't aim.

6:10It's becoming more and more powerful, but you also are getting worse at aiming it. That sounds really dangerous, a gun that you can't aim. I think it's going to be difficult, at least today, for there to be something where you say, like, we did testing and this model is certified safe. My goal is trying to make sure that there's at least one institution that has the technical capacity to do this kind of testing. Yeah, I think having more actors that can do this kind of evaluation and inform the public debate, I think, is really valuable. People listening to this, they'll be aware of our impending doom potentially within the next 10 years as a result of uncontrollable AI.

6:49If the time is not now for regulation, we're going to lose it, aren't we? 10 years in some ways even sounds kind of far out. It's common to talk about the idea that we might soon speed up AI research by having AI systems do the research itself. That could mean that very quickly, we could have it be that the AI systems are doing a lot of the work improving themselves. if AI systems are then doing a lot of actions in the economy for us. It could be that soon we have like robots that they can interface with or actuate in the real world. And then the question is kind of if we have defective training processes when we have AI systems that are running large parts of the real world, they're running a lot of our cyber operations, you know, actuating robots and cars or whatever in the real world, then the stakes for losing control of those systems could be much higher.

7:39And I think a world where we're that level of reliant on AI systems could come very quickly on the order of single digit years. That was the AI expert Chris Painter. There's been another false start in the U.S.-Iran peace process. Donald Trump has rejected an Iranian proposal to reopen the Strait of Hormuz within a week. Speaking outside the White House, President Trump had this to say to reporters. Well, I'm rejecting their deal. They want to make a deal where they open the Strait immediately because they're losing so badly. You know, you don't read that or you don't see that in the fake news.

8:12But we're winning tremendously. We have total control of the Harmo Strait. Massive amounts of oil are coming out of the Harmo Strait. Last night we had 29 ships come out. They want to make a deal. And I think that's fine. I like making a deal too. Responding to that, the Iranian foreign minister, Abbas Araqshi, said only a negotiated solution can get America out of this deadlock. So what was in Tehran's proposal? John Donison is our correspondent in Jerusalem. We think it was very similar in many of its aspects to the memorandum of understanding that was done between Iran and the United States earlier in the year, which quickly broke down with a resumption of violence.

8:53So included in this proposal from the Iranians was an end to sanctions on Iranian oil, the lifting of frozen assets, giving the Iranians access to that, a lifting of the US naval blockade. And in this deal, they were proposing a seven-week cessation of all hostilities from the US and Israel in the Middle East, including Lebanon. Now, when this proposal was put forward by the Iranian foreign minister last night, it might have sounded like a bit of a breakthrough. But really, I think we've not really moved any further forward. It's very quickly been rejected pretty clearly by President Trump just in the last few hours.

9:33and it's good that discussions are taking place. We know that the Iranian foreign minister was talking to the US special envoy Steve Wyckoff in New York in the last few days, but I'm not sure how much progress has been made. So why, if the content of Iran's proposed deal was so close to one President Trump agreed to back in June, has he now rejected it? Rob Malley was a US special envoy for Iran under President Biden. I think the rejection was preordained. I mean, the minute I heard of the plan, I think it was pretty obvious that the U.S. would reject it for several reasons. First, he didn't particularly like the MOU, which had collapsed, the framework on which this is based.

10:11And this one, if anything, was slightly even more favorable to Iran because they wanted to see the economic benefits up front. So it was in some ways worse than a deal that President Trump has decided he didn't like. Added to that is the fact that the circumstances have changed since then. The U.S.'s blockade has proven to be quite effective in terms of really strangulating Iran's economy. Other sanctions have been added. You now have basically an air blockade as well, more or less. And the U.S. has managed and other countries have managed to get more oil through the Strait of Hormuz, which is not to say that things are back to normal.

10:46There are a lot of very essential products, critical products that are not getting through the Strait of Hormuz. But from a U.S. perspective, the importance of reopening the Strait of Hormuz has lessened and the economic pressure they've put on Iran has increased. The U.S. feels it's in a stronger position, which means it's certainly not going to accept something that is worse from their point of view than what they had agreed to months ago. And almost certainly they're going to ask for more and everything we're hearing, and the Iranians, I think, have heard this directly or indirectly from the Americans, is that the U.S.

11:14position now is that what they want up front is a nuclear concession by Iran. And that's something that right now the Islamic Republic is dead set against offering. They're not prepared to give in, and certainly not now when they feel like they have zero trust in the Trump administration, an administration that has assassinated its leadership, and that twice, in the middle of talks, went to war with Iran. So they will be prepared to endure enormous pain, particularly because most of the pain is being felt by ordinary citizens, not by the leadership. That was Rob Malley. From 2020 to 2022, a civil war in Ethiopia's northern Tigray region, left at least 100 ,000 people dead either from the violence or from famine.

11:55Now it looks like the area may well be falling back into a full-scale conflict. Fighting has erupted between the Ethiopian government and the Tigray People's Liberation Front party. There are reports of panic buying and many internet, phone and banking services are down. The Ethiopian journalist Zakarias Zilamen has been following developments from Canada. There's been Tigray-wide communications outages that have made it incredibly difficult to corroborate the claims and counterclaims by the warring factions of battleground victories, of advances. The war broke out on Tuesday, and I've been unable to reach most of my sources since Thursday.

12:35The telecommunications provider, Ethiotelecom, that has severed its services region-wide. Unfortunately, it's in many ways a repeat of the tragic scenario six years ago now. A litany of horrific abuses were carried out by all of the warring factions, and it was incredibly difficult to document them in real time. One could argue that the country's already plunged into a civil war. Of course, there's been lots of new realignments. There's a new rebel alliance. Tigrayan rebels are now fighting alongside rebels in the Amhara region, and they are widely believed to be backed by Eritrea. It's just been a continuation of three years of deteriorating ties.

13:12And so the breakout war and civil war didn't catch anyone off guard. And we're hearing reports of hundreds of deaths. Fighting is limited really to Tigray's frontier areas, bordering the neighboring regions of Amhara and Afar. Unfortunately, all signs point to the fighting being set to spread Tigray-wide. It's something that may mimic what we saw for six years ago. And despite observers pleading with international community to intervene, you could say that a lot of them were too preoccupied with Iran or Ukraine. So a deterioration of the situation on the ground is imminent. Zacharias Zulahem then.

13:48To France now, where Pope Leo has celebrated Mass in central Paris at a giant open-air service. He made special mention of young people and praised their enthusiasm and commitment within the Christian community. Our religion editor Ali Mkbul was there and sent this report.

14:11Everywhere he's gone during his visit to France, Pope Leo has been greeted by enthusiastic crowds. Today, a large area of central Paris was, in effect, turned into a vast open-air cathedral. At the Place de la Concorde, a towering stage and altar had been built, surrounded by a seated congregation. But beyond that, with big screens set up along the Champs -Élysées, hundreds of thousands more participated in the papal mass. France has had a complex relationship with the Catholic Church, from early adopter of Roman Catholicism to pioneer of strict secularism. In his homily, the Pope told Catholics in modern France, where regular churchgoing has long been on the decline, to be confident in expressing their faith.

15:03You long to rediscover a horizon filled with light and to build a renewed nation upon roots nourished by faith. Do not keep this faith in Jesus Christ to yourselves. You are called to bring hope wherever discouragement and spiritual dryness prevail. The Pope also had a broader message about the restlessness of modern life and talked of an inner emptiness people seek to fill with distractions and more possessions. Ali McBur. Still to come in this podcast. This is Tenzing. I wanted to tell a different side of the story. He'd always been the supporting character as opposed to the hero of that narrative.

15:44The unsung hero of the first ascent of Everest brought to the big screen.

15:55Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Join host Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change, as she shares true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we make the choices we do and how to make better ones to help avoid costly mistakes. Listen to choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.

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17:40Download the latest episode and follow at schwab.com slash Washington Wise or wherever you listen.

17:56A peace process brought relative calm to Northern Ireland after decades of violent conflict. But tensions between many Catholics and Protestants living there remain. And those tensions are particularly acute at the moment because a march by a Protestant group through a Catholic area in the town of Porter Down is due to take place just a few hours after we record this podcast. It'll be the first such march there in decades. An application to block it was dismissed by judges who sat late into the night to make their ruling. Our correspondent Chris Page told me more from Belfast. The latest ruling means that one of the most contentious marches in Northern Ireland can go ahead at eight o 'clock on Sunday morning.

18:38During the night, a large crowd gathered on the Gavacki Road, including some men wearing masks. It's understood that 200 extra police officers have come to Northern Ireland from Scotland to help with the contingency planning. and really there was a sense of tensions rising. There have been appeals from CAM, from the British government in London, from the Irish government in Dublin, also from politicians in Northern Ireland, though also the political reaction here has been strong. Sinn Féin, which is the biggest Irish nationalist party here, have described the decision to allow the march to go ahead as a disgrace.

19:18The leader of that party, Mary Lee Macdonald, has said The march is steeped in a history of hate, sectarian violence and murder. Unionist politicians, though, have welcomed the outcome of the court process. The local MP for Portadown, Carla Lockhart of the Democratic Unionist Party, has said it's been a seismic evening for the rule of law. So this is one of these issues in Northern Ireland, where deep divisions, political divisions, have been laid bare. and it's possible that the police could have a very difficult day ahead. So how does the tension over this particular march reflect wider ongoing divisions between some Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland?

20:03Well, the history of conflict here has left a very long and difficult legacy. There were more than 3 ,000 people killed during the conflict known as the Troubles, which lasted from the late 1960s until the late 1990s. It was a complex conflict. There were various elements to it. And every now and again, whenever a historical issue rears its head, you will find people looking back to the past, talking about the past and the violence that happened. And the Drum Creek Parade is one example of it. It's being discussed and debated on social media as well, of course, drawing lots of comments. Well, it has created a new sense of divisions.

20:47That said, most people in Northern Ireland are very much mindful of the fact that this is a very different place to what it was 30 years ago. The peace process has been largely successful and the peace has largely held. But nonetheless, those divisions are still a reality. And the possibility of street violence is always something that is being considered by the police, by politicians and also by the governments in London and Dublin. Chris Page. Bangladesh is in the middle of its worst ever measles outbreak. The highly contagious disease has killed more than a thousand people this year, most of them children.

21:24Now the government has launched a nationwide measles rubella vaccination campaign. Amrassan Etirajan told us how it's being targeted in communities across the country. This campaign particularly is very important because for the first time now, Now, they've reduced the vaccination age for children from nine months to six months. So usually, measles, it's a two-dose vaccine. And this campaign aims to inoculate about 3.4 million children. So it's going to be a month-long campaign and a lot of logistics involved, transporting these vaccines around the country. Now, what are the symptoms of measles?

22:01It includes high fever, rashes, and also breathing difficulties. And it was previously given from nine months up to five years for the children. Now, Bangladesh this year had a major outbreak since the beginning of this year. The experts are attributing various reasons. So one is, first one is during the COVID period, many parents did not take their children to vaccination centres because of the transport, everything was shut down. And it requires 95 % of the children's population to be vaccinated. And then Bangladesh also witnessed a political upheaval in August 2024. when the then Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina was overthrown following a student-led uprising.

22:41And there was a lot of uncertainty, chaos during the interim government period. And the UN officials were saying the government, the then interim government, did not procure vaccines at the right time. And also because of the political violence, many health centres were closed. Their parents were not taking the children. That was one of the reasons why, because there is a huge gap. And it is highly contagious. And even if what the experts are pointing out, if one child is not vaccinated, that could mean another hundred could get it. And that is why they're insisting they want to have a watertight situation.

23:16But that will take time because of this gap. They're now trying to fill that gap. Ambrassanetti Rajan. Now, a few hours ago, I typed list of unsung heroes into a search engine. And right at the very top came the name Tenzing Norgay. The Sherpa mountaineer who made the first ascent of Everest in 1953 is better known now, but for decades he was overshadowed by his climbing partner, the New Zealander Edmund Hillary. Now a film doing the rounds of festivals around the world is highlighting Tenzing Norgay's unique part in conquering a peak that Nepal is known as the goddess of the sky. From Canada, Tom Brook reports.

23:58The Toronto Film Festival, one of the stops for the historical drama Tenzing, which is being shown at several major festivals in the run-up to its release next month. This is Tenzing, the man we've all been waiting for. The film tells of the triumphant 1953 British Mount Everest expedition, in which New Zealander Edmund Hillary and Sherpa mountaineer Tenzing Norgay became the first men to reach the peak of Everest. Tenzing! In Britain, news of the feat came through on the eve of Coronation Day in 1953, and it was perceived as a great British achievement. Perhaps we should join forces. In the film, Tom Hiddleston portrays Edmund Hillary, and Tibetan actor Jindem Penso plays Tenzing.

24:44The cast has been promoting this picture, along with Australian director Jennifer Peadham, who, with the film, is making her first narrative feature. In this film, the story of the British Everest expedition puts the emphasis on Sherpa Tenzing Norgay. I wanted to tell a different side of the story. Tenzing Norgay was one of the people that helped achieve that feat for the British and he'd always been a supporting character. He'd always been with his Sherpa guide, Tenzing Norgay, as opposed to the hero of that narrative. It just felt to me time to redress that balance or just to look at that story from a different point of view and what it meant for him.