Ina Garten

27:26And that's, it seems so easy and simple, but it's not always what people do. I knew somebody who would fix people up with, you know, together. Yeah. And Jeffrey said to her, what do you look for in somebody that you're fixing up with a friend of yours? And she said three things. Are they a good person? Do they want to take care of you? And that doesn't mean financially. That means everything. Like, do they want to take care of you? And the third one really shocked me because it was so simple. Does he want to be with you? Because so many people want a wife, but they want to go play golf. But that's the thing about Jeffrey.

28:07There's nothing. I mean, he just follows me around the house. And every once in a while I turn around and go, does he want to be with you? Yes. Do you want to be in each other's company? Do you want to be together? Are you just looking for that to fill in that blank? Yeah. That is so deep. It really is. It's so simple, and yet it's so important. Yeah. And I know that you, you know, anyone who's been married, how many years have you been married? Fifty-seven. So you have this, you know, ever-changing story, right? This song that keeps changing and growing. How have you grown? How have you both changed from when you were married at 20?

28:48Like, how are you different? Oh, I think when we were married at 20, we each had, like, roles. You know, he was the husband. I was the wife. If I'd go, you know, we both had jobs and, you know, he would go to the State Department. I worked in the White House. And it was assumed that I would come home and make dinner until I found it just incredibly annoying. I just didn't want to have the girl role and him have the boy role. And so we just threw the whole thing away and started all over again. And he took the checkbook and he said, here, you do it. There was one time he said to me, he said to me, I'm, what's he doing that bills?

29:21And he goes, I'm, what's this bill from Bloomingdale's? And I thought, I'm not about to justify to you what my bill from Bloomingdale's is. And he picks up the checkbook and he hands it to me. He goes, okay, you do it. And I said, fine. And that was that. It's so funny. I have such memories of my parents sitting at the kitchen table with their checkbook. Doing it together. Doing it together. That's interesting. And it being a big deal about who was doing it. And you're right. Especially a lot of women during that time just weren't even aware of their financial situation, let alone knew how to do it.

29:49Exactly. And recently, actually, Jeffrey said to me, so how much do we spend on the garden? And you were like, Jeffrey, don't ask questions like that. It doesn't matter. We have strawberries. We're fine. I just went, I don't think so. And he goes, okay, I get it.

30:07Okay, we cannot blow past the White House. You just said so casually. I was at the White House. He was at the State Department, like an episode of the Americans or something. That was us. You didn't know that. That's the untold story. I mean, people could argue that you and Jeffrey worked for the CIA. Well, I think a few people, you know, you don't know this about Jeffrey, but he was a paratrooper and a Green Beret. And then his first job was in the White House. And then he worked for the Secretary of State. So everybody I know thinks he's in the CIA. And every once in a while I go, are you actually in the CIA?

30:40And he always says, you know, the wives are the last to know. That would be an amazing show. I would watch that where he reveals at age 90 that he's— And I'm a Russian agent. But you worked in the White House, and you were working during the Ford administration and the Carter administration, like during those four— I started when Ford came in and then stayed on through Carter. And what were you doing there? I worked on nuclear energy policy. Nuclear energy policy. So it's the part of the federal budget that I worked at Office of Management and Budget, which writes the president's budget. And I oversaw the budget for nuclear power plants.

31:23And interesting that it's come up now, enriched uranium. Yes. It's very—uranium is in the news. It's in the news. It's back in the news. And how did you get that job? How did you get a job? I just—I think Jeffrey knew somebody in the White House who was looking for somebody, and I applied for the job and got it. And you talked about how it was pretty, it was tough for you. There was, things moved slowly. Slowly. Oh my God. Every year we would take something out of the budget, something big. I mean, at the time it was, there was one nuclear project that was$20 billion, which was a lot at that time in the seventies.

31:59And it would go up to the Hill and the Congress person, I think it was Strom Thurmond, was from the district that this plant was in. And then we were trying to get rid of it or give it to private industry. but he would have no control over it. So he would put it back in. And then the next year I'd write the same papers to the president to take it out. And the next year Thurman would put it back in again. And after four years of that, I was like, okay, I'm done. So done. I'm not writing this paper one more time. So you're writing budgets and you decide, I need something where there's, I really need to do something that, like where I can make something, do something, and I can see the results of it fast.

32:35And so can you just tell me, how do you go from, I mean, I've read about it and I've watched you talk about it, but still the leap from working in that very corporate job to running a store is such an interesting leap. What gave you the courage to make the leap? How do you make that career change? I knew I was done with working in the government. Yeah. And I was, when I lived in Washington, I taught myself how to cook. I used to, just for fun, buy old houses, renovate them and sell them. And actually, I was going to business school at the same time. I don't know how I did any of that. Wow. And I knew I was either going to go into real estate or the food business, and I just didn't know which one.

33:25And then this ad showed up in the New York Times. And I came home that night, and I said to Jeffrey, I really need to find something else to do. And he said, just pick something fun. Pick something that you think you'd love doing. And if you love it, you'll be really good at it. And I was like, funny you should mention it. I saw an ad for a business for sale in a place I'd never been. It was a specialty food store. And he said, let's go look at it. Wow. So, I mean, what an incredible guy. It was in a place that he didn't live. He was working for the Secretary of State. It would basically blow up our lives.

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36:47Yeah, checking first is a good plan. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. You have now a business, employees, and you have to learn very quickly how to be a boss. Yeah. Right? And so what, you know, how would you describe yourself as a boss? I always wanted to be the boss that I wanted to have myself. And so I'm very collaborative. I think in the beginning I was probably too collaborative.

37:22Like, what do you think we should do here? What should we do there? And as I got better at it, somebody actually gave me, a friend gave me the advice, your employees need two things from you. They need you to be clear and they need you to be happy. And from then on, I would say, I need these candies bagged and I need them wrapped up like this. And if I was having a bad day, I would just disturb the energy in the room. Sometimes I had 50 or 100 employees and they'd all be like, what did I do wrong? But it had nothing to do with them. So I'd just walk out of the store. I'd walk around the block, calm myself down, and come back happy.

37:58And it was, I think that was the best lesson I ever had for business. How do you give feedback or criticism? I'm very clear about two things. If I'm criticizing you, I'll take you out of the room and discuss what you can do better. If I'm complimenting you, I'll do it with everybody around. I totally agree. I think compliments with everyone around is a huge thing that people forget to do. I think they actually do the opposite quite a bit. They criticize with everyone around and they compliment privately. And if I have to fire somebody, I'm always worried, what are their colleagues going to say?

38:33And I usually give them a lot of warnings, explain what they have to do better. And at the end of the day, it doesn't work. I fire them, usually in a way that makes them say thank you and kiss me when they leave. Like, this isn't the right job for you, but that could be the right job for you. And then I call everybody together, and that works for me, and I say, I need to explain to you what happened, why this didn't work out with that person, because I'm so worried that their colleagues are going to be mad that their friend is gone. And 100 % of the time they're like, oh, such a pain in the neck.

39:04We hated working with them. I'm so glad you fired them. Right, right. So it turns, it always, but you need that communication. And it's a kind of on the job learned skill because to your point, I think we're going to make a huge generalization here. But sometimes a lot of women are good collaborators. So we figure out like, I think the best way to be in charge here is to make sure everybody's voices are heard. And I'm constantly collaborating until you realize that people are looking for direction. For direction. And I start with the assumption everybody wants to do a good job. I just have to give them the tools to do it.

39:42I have to tell you one story, though. The first probably a month in when I bought Barefoot Contessa and there was, I think there was a cook and three people working in the store. And one of them was just dreadful. And they were all like 16 years old. Right. But she was just, I mean, she had no vision. Like if I tell her to, you know, clean the counter, if there were 20 customers waiting, she'd be cleaning the counter. Right. She was just very sweet, but not very good. So I took her out in the back, and I explained that, you know, I'm sure there are other jobs that are good at. This isn't the one.

40:14And it was so gentle because I was so worried about hurting her feelings. Yeah. That the next day she showed up for work again. She didn't know she'd be fired. And the worst part is I couldn't do it again, so she stayed for the whole summer. I've gotten better than that. I could see that happening, too. where everyone's like, thank you for the feedback. I'll see you tomorrow. And it's like, oh, no, what have I done? Barefoot Contessa, when you opened the store, what was the stuff that you were trying to sell there that spoke to people who were wanting real food? Well, you know, I had to learn it.

40:53Yeah. I thought it's an expensive store. It's very expensive to make specialty foods. I'm in the Hamptons. I'd never been there before. So I had an image of it being fancy. And so if I made, I mean, while we're talking about roast chicken, if I made roast chicken in the store, I'd take a huge white platter and I'd fill it with fresh herbs and then I'd put the roast chickens on it and then put them out. And nobody bought them. And I was like, okay, what am I doing wrong? I took the chicken back in the kitchen and I put all the chickens in little red and white paper cups like you would put French fries in and put them on the counter and they all sold.

41:32And I thought, oh, that's so interesting. People want really accessible food. They don't want fancy food because they're eating it at home. It's different. When you go to a restaurant and want something that's interesting that you've never had before or takes a long time. At home, you want simple food. You want roast chicken, roast carrots and brownies. and and what do you say really good ones but really good ones and they're they taste good when you make them yeah then they're the really good ones but that is a thing that i think is just it's like that thing that you capture with the your cookbooks your show your um your podcast this idea that you know you have everything you need like you've got it within you it's very like you know um wizard of oz or something which is like you've you've it's been in you all along you just don't know it's there yeah we just have to unleash it yeah that's one of the things that i really wasn't prepared for when i started writing cookbooks is people sending me gifts they kept sending me things i'm like why are they doing what what i mean people were like um making huge pots and and that they threw themselves and sending why are people being so nice to me And I realized that it was, I wasn't giving them something like a cookbook.

42:48I was giving them the tools to make something for themselves. And they would put it out and people would say, you made that chocolate cake yourself? And they felt good about themselves. And that's, I think they wanted to thank me, which was so lovely. It was such a realization that it was, that it was, it just felt very generous. It was really nice. Yeah. That we're giving people the tools to do something for themselves. People really attach to you, Ina. That's so sweet. It's really sweet. I mean, I think you remind them of someone in their family. I think they feel exactly what you've taught them something.

43:21It's like teacher and mommy and, you know, Jedi master and, like, relationship goals and all that stuff. How does it feel to get all that, like, love and attention from people? Well, I mean, who wouldn't like it? I mean, it sounds great. That's really—when they start throwing things, we'll talk about it. Yeah, it sounds great. Dumbest question I've ever asked. Okay, I have a question for you. Okay, here we go. What's your favorite New Yorker cartoon? Oh, my God. I heard you love New Yorker cartoons. I love New Yorker cartoons. I don't remember any of them. Oh, really? Yes, but they're so good.

43:58Oh, no, I do remember one. I knew you would. Okay, thank you for asking. And for anyone under the age of 55, The New Yorker is a magazine, and you can read it in person and you flip through it like it's like a book but skinnier and flatter and for those who forget a book is a

44:22it is a piece of rigatoni on the phone calling somebody and saying you silly you crazy bastard how are you

44:39I love that you have a food one because all of mine are food. Well, okay. Yeah, mine was a foodie. My favorite one is a little pig sitting on the examining table in a doctor's office. And the doctor comes in with his clipboard and he goes, I have very bad news. It's your ribs. They're delicious.

45:02Oh, my God. Do you ever enter those contests? No, I wouldn't have a clue. It amazes me that people can write those things. Okay, me too. Did you? No, I write jokes for a living, one could argue. And oftentimes I'll just be staring at the picture like stumped, like, why don't I stay here? And it's so funny. It's just like, I guess, hey, guys, what's going on? I actually just saw a cartoon. It wasn't the New Yorker, but I just saw a cartoon. It was two dogs coming up to the front door, and there were two dogs answering the door. And one of the dogs, the ones arriving, said, you know, Cheryl said, life is short.

45:46We really have to smell the roses. And you saw that there was a mailbox, and it said rose. So the dogs inside were the roses. Life is short. We really have to smell the roses. I just started laughing. I couldn't stop. What do you like about New Yorker cartoons? The play on words. The play on words. The intelligence behind it. Just like, what kind of a mind thought of that cartoon? Life is sure. We really have to go smell the roses. And they said, and here we are. Well, you know, I usually ask this question at the end, but I want to ask it now, which is, what makes you laugh? What are you reading, watching?

46:26I can tell that you like to laugh. What makes you laugh? I do. My friends. I just, I don't tend to watch humorous movies or shows or things like that. I just, my, I love, my friends have great sense of humor and they just make me laugh all the time. Well, how important, you know, being in your 70s, what are, what do female friendships mean to you? What do your friendships mean to you? Well, I mean, it's everything. Yeah. It's everything. Yeah. I mean, I just, I, I mean, Jeffrey's clearly my best friend, but, but women bring something totally different and it's really connection. And actually, that's what I always thought that I was so pleased that I was in the food business because I could really work out the issues from my childhood.

47:07And it was just wonderful. But when I started doing Be My Guest, I realized what I was missing really is connection. And that's been just extraordinary. I've made, well, your dear friend Tina, made great friends. Yes, I'm so jealous. You guys went out to eat. It was so much fun. And you're friends with Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Julia, exactly. Congratulations. two queens isn't she the best well she not only is she the best but she spoke to us before this podcast oh she did we got a question oh is she the one she was a special guest we talked to Julia because oh great yep and so smart so and she said the same thing about you she said you're really smart she did yep thank you smarties all around and Tina all smart people smart wonderful talented women I think smart people who have a sense of humor have the best senses of humor well Tina has said this which is you can tell a lot about somebody by what they laugh at.

47:59Yeah. Although that doesn't say much about me because I laugh at everything. You just like to laugh. Yeah, I love to laugh. That's good. But you're right. A sense of humor is a sign of intelligence and also it's the way we just tell each other what we care about. So Julia, we spoke to Julia. She says hello. She was wearing a giant sun hat and going through her refrigerator when we talked to her. And she had a question for you. um she said what how are you so cheerful um and then she said and what makes you um uh what puts you in a bad mood passive aggressive people who tell you what you want to hear and do exactly as they please makes me crazy and I can chew on them for years I'm gonna say more about What do you mean?

48:53So like someone who placates you? Yeah, well, we all know people that if you're doing something with someone, you want to be collaborative. Let's just all figure out what the issues are, what we need to do, and then together we'll make a decision. Unless it's my business, but just moving forward. And I don't like people that withhold information so that they control the situation. Because then I'm making a decision without the real information. And I just find passive-aggressive makes me crazy. Oh, I love that. I mean, crazy. And you also asked how I keep my joy. I think that it needs to be nurtured.

49:38I think we're either born with a positive or a negative energy. And, you know, I think about when I do yoga and my instructor says, what does she say? find your inner smile. I think you either walk around with an inner smile or you don't. And if you don't, I think you need to just nurture it. And I feel like I was just born this way. My parents used to say I came out like playing with my toes and giggling. And I think it's an important thing to do. I think it makes life easier. Yeah, it's true. I think it's really important. And yes, we've had extraordinary lives, but we've also had difficult times.

50:17You talk a lot about it in your memoir. We've all had difficult times. And how you deal with it, it's up to you. You know, if I may, you spoke about your late in life, would you say, reconciliation with your dad? Yes. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? You know, my dad was not a great dad. He was really tough and critical. But later on, we were together. They were giving him a party for me for my second book. So it was 2000. And he was sitting with me and he said, said to me one sentence that made all the difference in the world. He looked at me and he said, I don't know what I was thinking.

51:02And it makes me cry just now. And that changed our whole relationship because he felt badly about it. And he basically said, I'm sorry in that sentence. And then we went on. But my dad, I have to say, he was a tough dad, but he also gave me something when I was a child that was really important. He loved to talk through—he was a doctor, but he loved to buy real estate. So he would always talk through real estate deals, and he'd say, come in my study and talk through this deal with me. And so he taught me how to, you know, borrow money, go to the bank, borrow money. I credit him with a lot of things that I've done that don't scare me because I'm used to talking about it that way.

51:40yeah I mean it's also such an example of like you have to be open to the idea of forgiveness so or the idea of yeah letting things go basically like it shows up in all different ways it shows up in the way you are in relationship with your husband which is like we just kind of don't sweat the small stuff you just have to kind of like you know like love love each other through hard times it's it shows up in the way that you cook which is when there's like a mistake or an accident or like an oopsie. It's like funny. It's fun. Yeah. It's not the end of the world. Let it go. It's not the end of the world.

52:12Yeah. Yeah. And but but then it becomes, of course, much deeper when it has to do with your family of origin and and deciding like how much you're going to hold on to. And it doesn't mean you always forget. I mean, every once in a while, I have lunch with them and I go, I can't believe I'm having lunch with this monster. But he wasn't then. He really had come around and, you know, but it's you have to push that away. That's that was then this is now and you know there's all we fetishize um uh we well we fetishize as marriage especially you know um you know cis straight marriage um but we also fetishize children and people who have them and you don't have children what is the best thing about not having children not be responsible for them not having teenagers Yes.

52:59You don't want somebody who says I hate you and crashes the car. Are you trying to lease yours out? Well, I mean, I don't think people, you know, there's all these studies. Buried people without children are the happiest people. Like there's all these studies and everyone keeps going, well, they just haven't met my children yet, you know. I mean, it's amazing to me that I made that decision so young and that, thank God, Jeffrey was okay with it. Um, but, um, I just can't imagine my life any other way. I've done it, done what I wanted to do. Um, I've had one, you know, just a wonderful time. You made very countercultural decisions for a woman of your generation.

53:42You really did. But maybe I'm just projecting, but I feel like, you know, when you were working and making all these choices and making these big leaps and big swings, you didn't have as many women doing the same thing at the same time? I didn't have any. I really didn't have any. I can't think of anybody that I knew at the time who made the same choices. I really can't. And right now, as a woman running an empire. It's not an empire. It's an empire. Okay. I want to call more women geniuses, and I want to call more female-run businesses empires. Empires are not just for men. Well, I think of an empire as having 1 ,000 employees.

54:30I have two. You only have two employees? Actually, and a part-time office manager. I want to talk to you about this. This is incredible because you've scaled down. I want to walk across the lawn to the barn where I have people that I love and I want to cook all day. Did Tina ever tell you how she interviewed me at the Brooklyn Academy of Music? No, tell me about that. She started and she said, you know, my friends think you have this perfect life. You get up in the morning. You walk across the lawn. You cook all day. Your friends come by to visit you. You go out for dinner. Your husband leaves on Monday.

55:06He comes back on Friday. And then she said, and I told my husband I was going to say this, and he said, you know I'm going to be in the audience when you say that, right? And she was kind of right. That's really what my life is like. It's just been great. So are you looking to, like, you were hustling so much in the, you know. I worked. You work really hard. Writing the memoir made me realize I worked really hard. What did you learn from your memoir that you didn't know about yourself? Well, my relationship to work. Like, I think about it all the time. I'm always, like, troubling it because I get such esteem from work.

55:45Like, I get a ton of self-esteem from work, and I don't want to give that up. I also get a lot of self-esteem from parenting and being a parent to my kids. and like you, I feel like I desperately need connection with people and my friends. So all of those things and a lot of connection comes from work, but I don't know about you, but as I look ahead, it's just an interesting, like, what is our relationship to work to what is enough to, um, you know, what, what do we want to, how do we want to shape the, the third act of our life? And you are a life shaper. You, you, so what do you see the last?

56:20I don't think that far ahead. You don't. I just think, what do I want to do? If I know what I want to do today, and by the end of the day, I'm going to decide what I'm going to do tomorrow. It's all I need to know. It's kind of like my first book. I thought, oh, my God, how am I going to write a book, a whole book? And I thought, okay, I don't need to know how to write a whole book. All I need to know is what recipe I'm going to test today. And then tomorrow I'll test another recipe. And somewhere along the line, at the end of the line, I'm going to have a book. But I don't give myself overwhelming projects.

56:49I give myself manageable bites. Yes, I relate to that. It's just taking, I like to call it like, you know, like this season, you know, like think about it in terms of seasons because the idea of like the next year is going to be fill in the blank. That's overwhelming. It's overwhelming. Winter season, we're going to work on this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? There's this great expression and I'm embarrassed to say, I can't remember the name of who said it. I have a laptop. I can look it up. JP Morgan, I think. I think it was JP Morgan is go as far as you can see. and when you get there, you'll be able to see farther.

57:23But if you map it from here to there, you're going to limit yourself. You map it as far as you can see, and then when you get there, there may be other options you wouldn't have even thought of when you get there. So I just like to leave myself open to what things come along that is like, no, not interested, no, lose my number. Wait a minute, wait a minute. That's kind of interesting, actually. Come back here. Yeah. I mean, I think that's success. success is being able to decide what you get to work on. It's a surprise. I mean, you don't want to do the same thing over and over again. Yeah. And when you were writing your memoir, how did you, how do you like to write?

57:57Never. No kidding. Isn't writing the worst? It's the worst. People are always like, what are you doing? I'm like, anything but writing. I'm organizing my closets. I'm, I'm, I'm making amends to all my friends, whatever it takes to not write. Okay. So fast, fast round, Ina, are you ready? Okay. Okay. Okay. Here we go. Best way to cook carrots? Roasted with olive oil, salt, and pepper. And do you enjoy a feta on there? Yeah, I enjoy feta on anything. Sometimes I put feta and honey on my carrots. That's fabulous. Or balsamic vinegar, syrupy balsamic vinegar. So good because the sweet carrots and the vinegar are good.

58:34I like things that have an edge. Yeah. And vinegars do. I love a vinegar. Me too. Oh, Julia would want me to ask you this. How do you make, she's been making some sorbet and she, it was very fancy. She's speaking of fancy. She had, she had made sorbet and then she scooped out a lemon and put it back in the lemon. It's so cute. Um, but, uh, she found her sorbet wasn't as creamy. She, it was icy more than creamy. Any tips? Um, she said she made it with sugar, water. Did she make it in an ice cream maker? Great question. Yeah. I don't know. Some, some, some recipes have you just freeze it and, and like a, um, almost like a granita.

59:12Yeah. And that's, that would be grainy. Yes. But if you make it in an ice cream, I'm not an expert on... I know. I don't really love desserts. Making them, it's like a whole other world. Okay. Favorite New Yorker cartoon. We got that. Was that on your list? Yes, it was on my list because I heard you love New Yorker cartoons, but you brought it up. Jinx. Oh my God. Can I tell you my other favorite one? Yes, please. Dog sitting at the bar and the bartender walks over and he said, what can I get you? He said, I'll take a scotch and toilet water.

59:46Do you cook on Thanksgiving? Yes, I love Thanksgiving. Me too. It's just, it's like the best holiday. Yeah. Because it's traditional things. You can make them better. And yeah, I love Thanksgiving. What's your new, like, what's something you make on Thanksgiving that people would be surprised is at your table? Like, is there like, you know, like, huh? That on Thanksgiving? Well, you know, a couple of years ago, the New York Times asked me to do a store-bought Thanksgiving. And I thought, who could ever do that? So I said, I don't think so. And then I started thinking about it. And I realized that if you could take a store-bought ingredient from the store and make it easier, wouldn't that be fabulous?

1:00:27So I went and got Pepperidge Farm stuffing mix, and I made a bread pudding out of it, which was so good. It was crazy. So I have a lot of Thanksgiving things now. Like to get, like you can actually get good mashed potatoes, but then I add sour cream and Parmesan cheese and garlic, and it's just delicious. And you have no idea that there's a store-bought ingredient in there. Okay. Young chefs or food writers that you're into? I mean, I have a few people like Erin French from Lost Kitchen. I love her. So, you know, like the other day she sent out a recipe. I'm like, oh, I'm making that. Yeah. But I don't really spend.

1:01:05What did she send out? It was something that was great. Now I can't remember what it was. Do you ever watch TikTok or Instagram Reels or any of the young people that are cooking on there? TikTok, no. Instagram I love. Yeah. And I just think, you know, if you're interested in gardens, you know, you see a lot of stuff on gardens. You have to be careful about not watching cute puppy things because that's all you ever get. Do you ever see all those like this like version of the macho guy who's like in the woods and cuts the meat and puts it on the grill? What are you watching? Come on over to my FYP, Ina.

1:01:42Your profile is different from mine. Don't all have a Jeffrey, Ina. Don't all have a Jeffrey. Secret ingredient that makes things better. Oh, it's always something with an edge like balsamic vinegar or Parmesan cheese or Dijon mustard. things that a splash of red wine in a big pot of lentils it just changes everything yes anything lemon zest lemon zest yeah when you that's the other thing is it's really I learned when I started cooking later two things one is you know sometimes my anxiety needed to go somewhere you know sometimes it just needs to land like in your day right you have to you're making a list of what you have to do for your kids or do for your work or whatever.

1:02:30And I found like thinking about what I was going to make was a really nice way to put my anxiety. To sleep for a while. Yeah. Because you know what it is? The thing about, Jeffrey always says this about me, cooking is hard. And if it weren't hard, I wouldn't be interested in it. It's the challenge. Yes. And if you're doing something that's really hard, you just put everything else out of your mind. And I think that's one of the things I love about cooking. I mean, when I start, when I invite people over, I'm like, oh, this is going to be so much fun. And they're like, and then I'm like, why did I invite you?

1:03:03Oh, my God. This is so hard. Everybody relates to that. Everybody relates to that. Like very relaxed, oh, shit, feeling. And I just want to say you brought up a lemon zest. And I will say that for people who are learning how to cook, I would say reward yourself with a tool. A zester. Because when I got a zester, I was like, look at me. Yeah. Look at me with a zester. I was like, and I would just take it out. And you're just like, look at this. Because, you know, sometimes we need a little treat at the end of our learning. And get yourself a zester. And don't keep it forever. Oh, really? Yeah. You can't sharpen it like a knife.

1:03:44Oh, right. It gets too dull. After a couple of years, get a new one. Throw it right in the ocean. Okay. Okay. Anything you refuse to cook? Like anything you're like, no. It's so funny. We were just talking about this the other day. Really? I was with a friend, and we were talking about what our mothers used to make. It was like Monday, it was one thing. Tuesday, it was something else. Tongue. That's a tough one. Tongue was on her list, and liver and onions was on her list. Never. Liver and onions. Never need to cook either one of them. No. But also things that are really complicated, like, you know, I don't know.

1:04:20I mean, like bouillabaisse. A really good bouillabaisse takes forever. You know, I don't know what a bouillabaisse actually is. It's a fish stew. Okay. Which I heard Jeffrey doesn't like. No, no, no. I made a fish stew. It was the only thing I ever made that he didn't like. Okay. It was terrible. But that's not considered a bouillabaisse? It wasn't a bouillabaisse. A good bouillabaisse literally cooked for days. Got it, yeah. And it's good all the... The bones and the heads and the stock and all that stuff. I mean, the idea of like making your own stock to me is, I mean, that's just like a level of there's just certain levels where you think like maybe someday I'll do that.

1:04:59You're going to come visit me. Oh, yeah. And we're going to make chicken stock. And you won't believe how easy it is and what an incredible difference it makes. You take a big pot and you put like 10 things in it and you cook it for four hours. I love something that you can cook forever and forget it and leave it. I leave the house. I come back. It's fine. That was the thing about why everyone got into sourdough during the COVID is because everyone was like, it takes three days. And everyone's like, I need something. That's exactly what I don't want. Do bay leaves do anything or is this some kind of conspiracy?

1:05:30Oh, it's so funny. David Remnick, the New Yorker, and I had a long conversation about this. Beats me. You're not ready to— My guess is that fresh bay leaves can make a difference. There's like an undertone that you can taste. Bay leaves that have been in your spice drawer for 40 years? I don't think so. And also fresh bay leaves, like that's—one needs to plan ahead for weeks. like when you see a thing that says fresh bay leaves it's like I'm out I mean actually it's true like sometimes in recipes you'll be chugging along and then you see something you're like you know what I'm out yeah I just can't do it I just can't get fresh bay leaves that's why when I'm writing a recipe I always say to myself um somebody when I'm doing a book is somebody going to look at the photograph and go that looks delicious look at the recipe and go I actually can find all those ingredients in the grocery store and it's simple enough for me to make yes and that was like from my first book to the one I'm working on now it has to be all those things it has to be if you see you know like you see um an ingredient you've never heard of before is that like an alcohol or is that like a spice I have no idea absolutely and then you also have that ingredient in your in your cupboard for years to come and it mocks you you're like why did I buy za 'atar I'm never going to use this again exactly the spice I was thinking of Come see our Zatar comedy.

1:06:51Yeah, I was like, oh, I'm never going to use this again. And I see it every time I open the thing. Okay, and then the last question is, and apologies for my language, but have you heard, did you watch The White Lotus? I, not all of it. Okay, well, there's this term that's happening right now, like where she has a cunty bob. And you, sorry, I know, sorry, I know. I apologize. But you've had a bob for a very long time. You have great hair. Thank you. And you have a very sharp—it's gone different lengths, of course, in life. A little bit, yeah. But what do you enjoy about having a bob? And are you aware that you're very on trend?

1:07:30Very on trend? On trend. I am? Oh, no, I have no idea. Everyone's getting a bob. Do you know when I first got that haircut, I was 25 years old. I lived in Washington. I had hair all the way down my back. and I had heard a friend of mine went to a salon at the Watergate and it was run by a man, Sylvain Malou, who had just come to the United States and she had a bob and I went right to him and I had him cut my hair like that. And you know, I've never changed it. It's been the same haircut since I was 25. I've tried it every once in a while. I'll try something else and I'm going to go, no. I'm going right back to where I started.

1:08:08it's a perfect bob but now i mean everyone is going for it that's so funny every every gen z is cutting their hair and also you know it's like feeling very brave while they do it well you have a bob right it looks great i mean i kind of i'm at the point where my hair just kind of cuts itself like it just doesn't really it doesn't ever really grow that long oh that's really interesting yeah the french always say that if your hair is short it shows your ensemble better. That if your hair is long, it's not the right profile. How much time do you spend in France? As much as possible. Yes. And do you speak French?

1:08:47Badly. Enough to deal with a green grocer. Oh, you do? Okay. And they'll speak it back to you. Yeah. Did you take lessons? No. Just from being there? I mean, from high school. From high school French. Yeah. I dream that someday I'm going to live there and full time and go to Berlitz, but it hasn't happened yet. Well, you never know. You never know. Cause I know the one thing I've learned is like, there's just the sky's the limit. I mean, and I feel like that is really like the, the theme of, um, a lot of what we talked about today is just that there is, um, there, there's no reason why there's no, there's no timeline as to when things are supposed to happen in your life.

1:09:33You get married really early. You start your business later. You're writing a memoir at this age. There's all these different ways in which you're just deciding what you want to do next. And you're the architect of your own life, basically. Yeah. And do it now. Don't wait. Yeah. I think a lot of people say, well, you know, first I'm going to do this and then I'm going to do what I really want to do. Do what you really want to do now. I know. Thank you so much for the presents, for the strawberries, for the Prosecco, for the fake chicken. I feel like lousy with gifts. Someday I'll make you a real chicken.

1:10:05I can't wait. Thank you so much for coming. It was so much fun. It really meant so much. It was really fun. Thank you. Thank you so much, Ina. That was so great. What a great conversation. And I loved talking to you. And, you know, I hope that this episode gets you hungry. I know it did me and it made me think about all the stuff I want to go home and cook. And so for this polar plunge, I just wanted to share something that I like to cook. My recipe, kind of a go-to recipe that I do a lot, which is just a very kind of simple chicken curry. I get chicken breasts with bone-in chicken breasts. And I put it in a pot with some rice, chicken stock, bunch of curry, coconut milk.

1:10:53Sometimes I'll throw in some chickpeas, throw in some parsley make it look green put it in the oven uh slow cook it and that that shit's amazing okay you look like a million dollars you can you know you want to brown the chicken first right you want to brown it in a pan first then you put it in with the uncooked rice you put whatever it is two two cups of rice so whatever it is three cups of chicken stock put some coconut milk in put in tons of curry put in the oven 375 for like an hour keep checking it stirring the rice if you need to you take it out you put it on the table people think you're a genius you can serve it from the pot you can serve the rice take the chicken and bob's your uncle so that's my chicken curry you can tell how i don't have a cooking show because i'm not great at explaining it but you get it.

1:11:47You get it. You can do it. I believe in you. All right. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullin, and Alaya Zanaris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.

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