Lena Waithe

27:18And yeah, just don't ever lose your cool. You talk about Aziz. Yes. You talk about getting the part in Master of None, which is where most people met you. Yes. The world kind of got to know you. But you've mentioned Alison Jones. Oh, well. So Alison Jones, who is Alison Jones? She's an iconic casting director. Yeah. And she's someone who's discovered many talents and I'm one of them. I give Aziz credit for sure. but he in a really cool way when he was casting the what used to be called the untitled disease and sorry project he said i want to just meet with people before i read with them um and he said i want to meet interesting people and and allison had met with me you know like that year earlier that year because she saw something i put on the internet which was like this pilot presentation which would ultimately become 20s yeah which i was not in because again no desire to be an actor.

28:08Why no desire? I think because, and it's still my biggest goal is to be a great television writer. That's really all I ever wanted to be. Obviously, yes, started from when I was young. I never thought I wanted to be on the screen. I think I always wanted to be the person writing the words that they said. Yes. And that was just always what it was. I admire actors a great deal. I love a great TV star, a great movie star. I just didn't want that pressure that came with it. and all that comes with that because it's a lot. And so when I wrote the pilot presentation for 20s, I was writing a thinly veiled version of my 20s and myself and my friends and all that.

28:51And so it got a little buzz and people were talking about it and I got a call that Alison Jones wanted to meet with me. I didn't even know who she was. I didn't. I was like, why does a casting director want to meet with me? I'm not casting anything. and when I went into I walked into her office of course I walked by the poster for Freaks and Geeks I walked by the poster for Veep I walked by the poster for Bridesmaids and I'm like okay this person she's getting good tits clearly she knows when a star walks into her office and so I sat with her and we talked about television and what we like to watch and what I think what I kind of understood in that moment is that Allison kind of picked up on my taste being very varied and sort of well rounded we talked about Maude we talked about Ann Martin and we talked about all these different things.

29:32And she was like, okay. And then she asked me, had I have any desire to be an actor? And I said, no. And she said, okay, do you mind if I bring you in for some things? And I said, sure. And she did. She brought me in for an episode of Veep, which I completely failed because Julia Louis-Dreyfus was in the room and reading with me. And I was like, oh no, I can't. No, this is not about to happen. I don't know what's going on. Were you nervous? You were nervous? I didn't know Julia was going to be in there. Right. And so I was like, what? Right. You walked in and then you were like, oh. I've since become friends with Julia.

30:02I love her. Her voice is in the Murray-Teller-Mordock. Very grateful. She's amazing. Let's work together. I'm like, okay, bet. But what was cool about Allison Jones is that she's like, okay, I'm not worried about that. I'll bring you in again for The Comeback, season two. Right. And I'm a person that had The Comeback, season one on DVD, watched it with the director's commentary, listened to Lisa and Michael talk about their process and figuring out value chairs. So I was studying, okay, that series and all that it was because I knew when I was watching The Comeback when I was in college. in Chicago, still living with my mom.

30:32I was like, this is something different and new. And this is crazy that she's coming from Friends and then he's coming from Sex and the City and they're doing this. Totally. Understood. Got it. I got that at that moment. And the depiction of television writers in that show. Oh my God. It's like, how much are y 'all talking shit? Like, what's going on? But also for, I almost said Valerie, for Lisa Kudrow to also give you a version of what an actress can be, an aging actress and what that can look like and how that can feel and the insecurity. It was crazy. So she called me. At first, it was interesting because she was like, do you know what the comeback is?

31:08And I said, yeah, I'm obsessed with it. And she was like, okay, well, they're doing a second season. And I said, okay, what? And she was like, you want to come in? They're doing a press day. There's going to be a bunch of reporters. I think you'd be cool. So she comes in. Luckily, Lisa nor Michael Patrick came in the room. Thank God. Yeah, lesson learned. Don't be in the room. Don't let them be in there. So she just put me on tape. I said, like, a line. and then I got the call that Michael, and Michael was directing that episode, and so he picked me, thank God, and that was actually my TV debut, me being like one of the reporters for her press conference or whatever, and so me being on that set was, to me that was one of those moments, one of those God moments.

31:45That was a big moment for me, and I remember I had a pitch for my line the way I could say it a little bit better, and that's always a tricky thing because I'm like, oh, don't be that person. I got one line. I have a thought on it, but Michael Patrick King, to his credit, who I love, and he's been a wonderful mentor of mine, He's also kind of gotten on me a little bit, too, and he thinks I'm being a little too big for my britches. But he heard it, and he said, yeah, that's better. That's better. That's better. And then, of course, later, Allison was talking to Aziz, and he said, who are some interesting people?

32:13And she said, oh, I think you should meet Lena Waithe. And that's how I literally went to his home, literally pulled up to his house, walked in, sat with him and Alan. Yeah, Alan Yang, who was a writer on Parks and Rec, who created Master of None with Aziz. Yes, I mean, those two. And I just sat with them. And I think I was prepared for that moment because it was weird because I was so used to doing staffing meetings. Yeah. So for people that don't know, like a staffing meeting when you're a writer and you're trying to get a job, you kind of do like a general meeting. Yeah. You sit and talk about yourself.

32:42And, you know, they've often read a script of yours, whether it be a spec or an original. And they talk about that, talk about your life. And I just sat in front of them. And I was not unlike this. I was very comfortable in my skin. I had just fallen in love with somebody. I was talking about all kind of stuff. and I and they just were kind of we talked like 30 minutes and three of us and then that was it and then I got a call that he wanted me to come read with him it's so interesting you're talking about writers taking meetings because I think for people that are listening like I don't think enough people know that writing for television a lot of it is about like will you be a person that people just want in the room that's right that's right you got to be chill you got to be laid back you got to be a team player you got to know when to be quiet you got to know when to speak up.

33:24You got to know the hierarchy. You got to know the politics of the room. Have you always known how to do that? Because you were so naturally good at it, Lena. I mean, I know how to how to play my position. And I was a staff writer twice before I sold my own show. Right. So when you're a staff writer, you really are there just to you're a helping hand, you know, and you can't. And also what I learned is that it's not your job to fix the show. And a lot of people come in there going, OK, I got it. I know how to get that Emmy. You know what I'm saying? It was never, never that. Even when I did get handed an episode to write, obviously, in season two of Master of None, which ultimately became the Thanksgiving episode.

34:01Which one in the Emmy? Oh, I'm very grateful. First black woman ever being out standing around in a comedy series. Come on.

34:10Aziz knew what was up. You know, I didn't actually want to write that episode because I wanted to keep it separate. I was a lot of people. Oh, yeah, you wrote on Master of None. I was like, season one, I didn't write on the show at all. Right. Now, mind you, you know how it is. when you're in between takes and you're talking and Aziz is like, Aziz is like, oh, I'm putting that in. I'm throwing that in. I'm like, okay, bad, cool. Yeah. But with season two and him and Alan asked, well, how did you come out? And I told them the story. They were like, okay, that's an episode. We got to do that. And I was like, okay, cool.

34:34Y 'all write it. I'm going to go do the Spielberg movie. And Aziz, I'll never forget, he said, he said, if you don't co-write this, we're not doing the episode. I just was feeling like, not overwhelmed, but I was about to go do Ready Player One. Yeah. And I was going to be in London and that was my first feature and I didn't want to mess that up. I mean, come on. Come on. Where do you go from there? But he came to London, to his credit, and we, a weekend when I was not working and we sat in the hotel room, his hotel room, and just like two days. Cranked it out. Knocked it out. When you were, when you were like digging deep for that story, your story, did you have any, like, did you think about what you wanted to keep for yourself and what you wanted to give to the show.

35:18It's tricky, right? I mean, it's such a beautiful episode. And it's so, and it really spoke to so many. And Angela. Oh, my God. Angela Bassett? Are you kidding me? Come on. Just talk about her for a second. I was like, she's going to say no. I was like, there's no way she comes up to show you. You had not met her. You didn't. Had not met her. Obviously obsessed with her. Yeah. You know, Aziz and I both are obsessed with Jackson 5 and American Dream. Yes. That's why we named the character Catherine. Like, but I just was like, she's not going to do it, bro. I was like, you're nuts. Melina Matsoukas directed the episode beautifully.

35:48Kim Whitley is an episode. What did I want to keep? I think what I wanted to do was be as vulnerable as I could on the page. Yeah. And I think what was so interesting about it, which I think surprised Alan and Aziz, they thought that religion was a big part of my story in terms of why my family wasn't really embracing my sexuality. But it really was more about what would the neighbors think, not what will God think. and that was something that was unique and one of my favorite moments in the episode is not unlike in real life when I told my mom I was gay she looked around to see if anybody heard like we're in a diner it's like these are strangers like who cares what these other people think and I think that spoke so much to I don't know like who I am it doesn't I don't think me being queer makes me more noble more special more interesting and it's just a part of my humanity and I think that's what I'm really trying to do in that scene that's trying to show my mother her own child's humanity.

36:48Yeah, yeah, beautiful. I mean, so beautifully done. So recognized for such, like, it was recognized for such special work. Congratulations on winning that Emmy. I appreciate you. Beautiful speech, too. Your Emmy speech was so good. You were so cool and relaxed. Lena, you were up there, like, you just, like, no nerves. Yo, I mean, well, look, it's, you never know. You know how this goes. Okay, but... You never know. And some people, it's interesting. But you're relaxing. You relax people. Wow, I appreciate that. Because you feel relaxed. Is that true? Are you relaxed inside your head? Do you know what I mean?

37:29Yeah, I know what you mean. I think there was a lot of talk. I was up against two episodes of Atlanta, by the way. One, okay? And that was like... Those were tough years, competitive years. Okay, but I'll give it to Donald Glover. we were at the Chateau. I'll never forget it. The night before, he does all these parties the night before. And Donald said to me with very confidence and the cool about him that he has, he said, you're going to take the writing one. You're going to take it. And I was like, I don't know, man. I was like, I don't know. He said, no, you got it. He's like, you got it. And Sterling K.

38:00Brown was like, you're going to take it. So I'm getting this weird. People are like, you got it. It's yours. You got it. I'm going like, oh, I don't know. It's yours to lose now. I know it's yours to lose. And then, you know, the history that came with it to be, you know, and you just had Mindy here. She's one of the first women of color to be nominated in that category for Outstanding Writing in a Comedy Series for the episode The Office. And Wanda Sykes won, but for sketch comedy writing, which was for Chris Rock's show. And so when they told me, when the Academy said, no, you're the first African-American woman to ever be nominated for Outstanding Writing in a Comedy Series for the primetime Emmy Award.

38:30I was like, oh, huh. OK. and I think that just it brought a different level of weight to it yeah and I think what I wanted to do I did think about Halle Berry yeah winning that Oscar and I remember watching and crying yeah and it was I was I was in Chicago so it was late as hell it was like my mom had gone to bed she said I hope she will hope the black woman win I was like I know we'll see and and I remembered that speech and she was very emotional yeah and rightfully so yeah but I loved how she sort of channeled the women that had come before her. For sure. And I think what I wanted to do was to honor Susan Fells Hill, Debbie Allen, E.B.

39:07Lee Bowser, Gina Prince-Bythorne, all these women that had been in television writers' rooms that had influenced me and also wanted it to be a moment for the queer community as well, for us to be seen and just for black women that wanted to write TV comedy. Totally. It was a moment for all of us. And you've spoken about this too, which is like comedy, which also just, you know, I think like any, any person that feels like they have to, um, any person that feels like they're representing a lot of history and a lot of people, that isn't always the easiest thing for comedy. Right. Yeah. Because comedy, it's like, there's nothing worse than being like, I'm going to write something very important.

39:46Like, what? I mean, come on. Like, you know, you're like, I'm going to write a classic sketch. For white women everywhere. Yeah. I'm going to change some minds with my comedy. is like, oh. It's like, oh. I'm glad that that episode meant so much to so many people. Yeah. You must have people all the time coming up and talking to you about it, right? Yes, yes. That's really cool. People you wouldn't expect. A lot of straight white dudes say they love it, which is always fascinating to me. I bet you have a lot of straight white dude fans. I do, interestingly enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they love Master of None.

40:18They love Ready Player One. Yeah, exactly.

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42:25what was it like working with steven spielberg oh my god we got to interview him for the coleman domingo episode he gave coleman a question and um i was saying to him like you know it was thanks for giving me all of my memories yeah thank you for giving me a happy childhood yeah like all everything you've ever done is in my head forever yeah but what was he like to be what was it like to be directed by him. He's like the best dad you could ever ask for. Yeah. And I always say he's a giant that doesn't make you feel small. That's who he is. He's very aware of his bigness. He's aware of the history that walks into the room when he does.

43:05And he's really good at disarming people. Yeah. And making you not be nervous about it. And he was not in the room as well when I auditioned for Ready Player One. Thank God. Thank God. He hired me off of a tape. Like, you know, like I came in, obviously for Ellen Lewis, who's also another iconic casting director and I could tell when I walked in the room I was just very comfortable that she saw something and then brought me in again and I think she had a conversation with Steven and I think that was a part of how I got in that film but he just he took to me and it's so funny there's a level of trust that was there before even getting on the set and one day he said Lena I could tell you to like run off this cliff and you would do it I said yep yep that's how much i trusted him and you will you will you'll follow him to the end of the earth because you know that his heart is in the right place you know that he wants to make something classic something iconic i feel like you like when there's like a strong leader i do actually relax yeah and i sort of like when a person is leading with their heart yeah you know and um and and just sort of has everybody's best interest you know in mind are you the kind of person if there's no leader it'll be you look it depends on the it depends on the situation it's like do i need to get in here because i don't want to feel like i have to control everything i don't want to be that person why not you're like uh you don't it seems like you know how to do it i mean somebody's gonna do it i mean so first of all a lot of my friends are like oh really you don't want to control everything like a like a like a trip if you're going on a trip with your friends are you the person that plans the trip.

44:38I want to sort of curate the experience more so than control it. Which is just the same thing. Okay, got it. I'm in therapy right now. Got it. This is me creating words. You're like, Lena, you're controlling. You're curating it. But see, I love that because that's your love language. Right. I want to make sure we have a good time. I just want to talk about Shai for a second. Congratulations on it. Like you're now, it's done. Yeah, almost. Like whenever this airs, when this airs, it will have been done. Wonderful. Perfect. And you are going to be, you will have you know successfully wrapped eight seasons of a show which never happens how long did Parks and Rec go?

45:14you can't even remember oh this is a good question the fact that you don't know off top seven or eight tells me everything I want to know it's the seven or eight this is why we had to stop because people were like you could have went ten you not knowing is everything I want in life okay I know Marietal Lamar went seven seasons the first iteration of Second City went six Will and Grace was eight seasons. I think we did. This is what happens when you make television. Also, you forget. This is called menopause. Okay. I'm Perry. I'm Perry. Here we go, Perry. I'm Perry. Hey, come on over. Come on. It's so fun.

45:51Look, night sweats. Oh, my God. It's so great. Night sweats, baby. Parks and Rec had seven seasons. Wow. So you're very Mary Tala Moore. Okay. One more than you. And yeah, and you guys did eight. And, you know, people might not know. We had extended seasons. Season six was 16 episodes. I've heard you talk about that where they were like, we love it more. And you're like, this is so great. Yay! Nightmare! Because people don't understand. Took me out. Took me out. I'm like, I like 10, baby. I like 10. I'm cable. What are we doing? We used to do 20. We had really uneven seasons. We had six episodes the first season.

46:30Which is insane. 21 and then 24. and then 16. Which is normal. And then at the time, I think we were in the 20s. And to do 20 episodes of TV, as people will probably notice, from episode 14, 13 to 16, got a little goofy. A little goofy. Because you start an arc that ends like, you know, at about episode 11 or 12 and then you've got to kind of start another one that's going to take you to the end of the season. And in between, you're like, let's have an episode where we're all like, you know. Just, wouldn't a treat yourself happen though? great question just because like that feels like you as an audience member you wonder is that y 'all just being tired and landing on something great iconic or is it like we're well this is something we we we think could actually really take season four episode four so we were a little fresh we were still a little fresh yeah that that feels about right yeah Because that was something that just stuck.

47:36I still get those gifts from people. They're just like, treat yourself. Treat yourself 2011. Come on, man. What? And we still, we'll say it. Written by Alan Yang. Come on, Alan Yang. That's a good one. And congratulations on an incredible run. Thank you so much. I mean, it does not happen anymore. I know. The Last of the Mohicans. Yeah, it's so true. And, you know, like, you also, you, we didn't even really talk about it, but, you know, we both spent time in Chicago. You were born in Chicago. It's such a love letter to that city. And it's also, like, just like the city. It's over the past eight years, the show and its relationship to the city has changed.

48:20Oh, yeah. Do you have people from Chicago feel like real ownership of that show? How do they talk to you about the show when they talk to you about it? I mean, they're mad that it's going away. They're like, what? Just do it forever. I'm like, I don't know if I can do that. I was like, I want to do some other stuff. But they feel like these characters are their family. Yeah. And they feel very connected to them. I remember when Parks and Rec went, when you guys closed the curtains and you guys were doing all the press. And I remember watching all those interviews and watching all of you because I was a person that watched the entire series.

48:59It does feel like a part of you is like not going to be there anymore. And so. Like you're going to miss the characters. You're going to miss the characters. I'm going to miss the people, the writers. You know how that is. It's just it's a family. It becomes a family, even though it can be dysfunctional sometimes. And it's work. But you realize how special that is to make something that the world watches and that people care about. I want to do a very quick speed round about Chicago. Coldest you've ever been. Oh, my God. Let me tell you something. Winters, as you know, in Chicago are just relentless.

49:35They're relentless. They test you. I think that's why I'm so cool. I think you're right. I think that there's like a Midwestern thing. First of all, nobody ever talks about the weather because it's like. What's the point? What's the point? It's like, accept it. Deal with it. Yeah. Like, no one walks around saying it's cold. I'm waiting on a bus in Chicago. Okay. On the train. Yes. In the cold weather, walking from the train station to my home. Yeah. Like, you don't, don't, don't, don't talk to me. Like, I don't, nothing scares me. Like, I'm not bothered by you or your attitude. Like, I've had to walk in snow to get to where I had to go on a train, on a bus.

50:15like waiting on a bus in the cold. Yes. Don't talk to me, man. Don't do it. Okay. Best concert or best music you've ever seen there? Best concert. Oh, see, here's the deal. I got to do two. Okay. Prince and Whitney. Oh, my. What? I know. But here's the deal. I would have loved to have seen Whitney. Talk about musicality. Here's the deal. A big influence my mom had on me. She did not like the fact that I couldn't hear Prince when I was young. I heard you talk about this. I love this. Say that. Say that. I just didn't get it. And she would play Prince a lot. Well, you might have also been like, like nobody wants to like be into what their mom is into, even if they have the coolest mom.

50:51The coolest mom. Like if you're like, this is really great. Your kids is like they want to be their own person. Maybe was that? I don't know. I don't know. She would play him a lot, which makes sense now. You think about in the car, in the house. And I just was like a young person that just said, I don't. What is this? What's happening? And so now fast forward, he's coming to Chicago. Oh, my God. And I'm in college and she's like, you're coming. And I said, why would I want to go to a concert of somebody whose music I don't like? And she said, because you don't understand and you need to understand.

51:26And no child of mine is not going to be a fan of friends. I mean, this is really, she's not joking. Her friend, Monique, they in the front seat. I'm in the back, upset. And we're going, I think it was like United Center or something. I don't know. And we pull up and I go into this concert and I am like baptized in a way. by his music and I hear it for the first time live. And I'm like standing with my mom and her friend. They just have the best time. And I'm just, just in awe. And I still have a t-shirt. We got a t-shirt from that concert. I still have it. And I walked out of there different. And I went and bought all the, then you can go to a record store.

52:07I went and bought all the records and was like listening to everything. You went to Blockbuster. You got all the movies. Went and watched Purple Rain. I just really was educated. And it was one of those things where I was really grateful that she was like, you need to know what this is. And then fast forward, I'm in L.A. and he does a whole like, you know, a sit at the forum and for a while. And I would go to those concerts and like listen. And yeah, and I have him tattooed on the back of my leg now. Like I have a Prince tattoo on the back of my leg. And then Whitney Houston, which I also have her tattooed here on my arm.

52:40paparazzi photo of her sticking her tongue out um i'm just i've been a whitney girl since you know her greatest love of all and i'm not alone in that you know growing up in the 90s and being born in the 80s she was it she was it there was no there's no one else there is nothing else and i just remember finally like being in the same space and she was and my love is your love really was like a comeback speaking of the comeback yeah it was her sort of coming back yeah and saying like I'm not done yet. I'm not done. You know, we got, we, we, we, I'm, I'm still here and I still have a voice and I still matter.

53:17And I didn't even understand the significance of that, you know, as a young person. But I remember like, oh, we're coming out with new music. What? Oh man, it ain't a, it ain't a greatest hits. It's just, she's coming out with some new stuff. And, and that was really important for me to see that for her to say, this is where I am now in my life. And I'm going to be rocking with Wyclef and Missy Elliott and Rodney Jerkins and Lauren Hill. and these people are who they are without me being who I am. And I remember that album and those videos and me just feeling really, and I have a t-shirt from that one, which I wear often.

53:49And it's something about those shirts and those, when you go to concerts, like grab a t-shirt, do something. I know, there's so many concerts I regret. Like one of my, I went to, like New Edition was one of my first concerts. Come on, that's why we love you. God, I would. You can come to the cookout. You're coming, you're there. you're awesome come on you're with us we love you Ronnie Bobby Ricky and Mike come on my little girl who cares who she likes but but man I wish I had a t-shirt I went to a Janet Jackson concert in Chicago the Rhythm Nation I still have that one like the merch shirts there's something it's a piece of history the fact that I can still fit my damn Rhythm Nation shirt well can I talk to you about the way you dress for a second because I love it.

54:37Do it. Because I love it. Thank you. And you have such good style. Honestly, a lot of times when I see you at events, I'm a little jealous of how comfortable you look compared to everybody else. It's the perk of being a lesbian. There's so many perks. Yeah, so many perks. We don't have to deal with men. Like, I mean, that's the main one. We really are looking at y 'all. Jenna laughing very hard.

55:02Hardest Jenna's ever laughed. I mean, it's so true. It's so true. And like your style, I love your style. And it's very you. It's really like it's it's all it's always changing. It's always interesting. It is like always right for the event that you're at. But you are never like it's just like you as a person. You're just never trying too hard. It's always cool. Thank you so much. Do you have a stylist? You pick all this stuff yourself? Well, it's so funny because I do. Jason Bolden, who is Cynthia, is like, he's actually her stylist. He would joke and be like, Lena, I'm your stylist too sometimes.

55:43Yeah, yeah. But they actually do her real work. They like doing stuff and having conversations. So RuPaul always says everybody's in drag. And I think for me, I want to feel on the outside how I feel on the inside. And I just feel comfortable in the way that I dress. And I always want to feel comfortable. Me too. I never want to feel like I'm trying to be something I'm not or make someone else feel comfortable. I don't want I don't want someone else's comfort to to to be a priority. When did you figure out your own style? When did you always have it? You know, it's so interesting because I'm doing a clothing line right now.

56:20Proximity. All right. With a designer. Her name is Knox and she's from New York. And she, you know, I like to wear it because I just want to wear designers that reflect who I am. She's a queer black woman and we're friends. And we were like, and this is, you know, part of what she's doing. Like she made this for me and I wore this to a premiere of him. I'm wearing it again. I like repeating things as well. I'm just letting folks know that like every outfit doesn't have to be new or different. But I think I sort of, I used to wear those T-shirts where there was, it was a whole time people were wearing T-shirts with like a whole paragraph.

56:51It was like a little funny joke. That was a thing I was doing so much. I was like, Lord help me. So glad I grew out of that. But then I got into vintage stuff, like vintage shirts and things like that that meant something to me. Yes. And I was like, okay, cool. And then I got, you know, making a little bit of money. I was like, okay, cool. I got a little designer thing here. There was a thing where you wanted the designer brand there right there so people know you were in Valentino. Yeah. Then you get old and you realize, I don't want nobody to know that I got Valentino on. Right. Just let it be, you know, as Rashida does, quiet luxury.

57:20Yes. You know, the white t-shirt costs$500. I mean, listen, I'm always asking Rashida. Oh, Rashida's the goat. and she's like she's right now she's in the biggest clothes I've ever seen okay everything is gigantic Japanese oh my god everything she walks in I'm like is this what we're doing now it looks incredible everything she's wearing is incredible she's so chic and just easy like I took a lot of tips from her I said okay do a little plain little jacket little this little I steal a little bit with Rashida I'm like okay Rashida but I think I think style is not unlike your voice so you have to try different things find it over time.

57:56That's right. But I do think my queerness does lend itself to my style. A little big part of it is because I don't live under the male gaze. I don't have this desire to impress dudes. Right, right. Or will even impress, like, women. I'm just sort of, I'm like, what looks good to me? Well, this is kind of a segue, which is you're the producer right now on a show that is, like all about people who are celebrating the way in which they've discovered who they are and it is a show called Jellicle Ball this is true and that is the Jellicle Ball you're a producer on it yes one of the co-producers and talk about um watching in real time people like figuring out like how I want to how I want to be in the world not only how do I want to dress but how I want to move, how I want to be an artist.

58:47Like, how did you get involved in working with that show? When did you first see it and why did you want to be part of it? Well, thank God. Cynthia saw it first. She was here in New York and went to see that pack when it was off Broadway. And she called and she said, you got to see the show. You got to come down. You got to come to New York to see it. I was like, okay. And I bet people might be like a little intimidated when Cynthia Erivo's in the audience. That's a tough, that would be, I would be like. I think they were very excited and ready to show off their. skills when she was there. She guest judged over there at PAC.

59:17And so she called me. She was like, there's something that's a level of intensity in somebody's voice where they're like, no, you need to come. And so I was like, okay. So I came, saw, and was blown away and said, okay, well, this should transfer to Broadway. I hope. And if it does, I said, I think we should be producers on it. And it wasn't the easiest thing, I think, because, you know, there's a lot of producers on Broadway shows and there's certain requirements and things that people need. And we just said, trust us. Like we need to be a part of this because we want to make sure everybody knows about it.

59:45We want to get out there and like wave the flag and be on this amazing podcast and talk about it and all that stuff. And so we were grateful to the lead producers that said, yeah, you guys should come on and be a part of this. And, you know, speaking of Blockbuster, I watched Paris is Burning, that documentary, because it was on the shelf. And I saw it one day and I say, I'm going to watch this doc. And I never stopped watching it. I kept rewatching it again and again and again. And I was seeing what I wanted to be. I was seeing these people with these big personalities and saying funny things.

1:00:14They're hilarious. We go back and watch Paris is Burning. There's just joke, joke, joke. They're not even trying. They're just being hilarious. And I mean, that's that to me is like real love language is when people like tease each other. Oh, my gosh. It's like, yeah, the white version is teased, black version is throw shade. You know what I'm saying? It's like we're throwing shade. We're like being fierce. We're talking trash. And so I just loved that. Paris is burning really obviously helped to influence, you know, cast Angelica Ball and also influence Pose and things like that. But to see Junior LaBeja, who was in the documentary and a lot of people in the documentary have since passed away, for him to be on that stage every night and being able to feel that love and receive it.

1:00:54I'm honored to witness it. And I've seen it twice, obviously on Broadway, obviously once off Broadway. And it's something that just brings me so much joy. Well, we got to talk to the directors. Oh, come on. The Tony Award winning directors. That's what they are now. They're the best. And we got to talk well behind your back with them. Oh, my goodness. These two? The dynamic duo. First of all, I was very stressed. I felt like they brought way too many relatives to the Tony. Well, come on. What do you expect? I know, but they had a lot of people in those seats. Yeah. And at one point they were saying they had to talk to everybody.

1:01:29And I was like, no, you don't. Look. It's your night. But they spoke, of course, so beautifully about just what you were saying, which is that you guys, you know, you and Cynthia like used your currency to get this show where it needed to be. And you saw something right away that meant so much to them. And that, you know, that is kind of you in a nutshell, Lena. Like you are an artist who really loves other artists. You really support and like you like what you like. And when you like something, you really want people to know about it. Like you are, you know, you're a mentor for so many people.

1:02:08And you're also just like never forgetting that you're a fan and a student at the same time. It's awesome. Thank you. And they love working with you. And they had a couple of questions for you. Oh, my goodness. Ebony and Ivory.

1:02:25okay and so jaylin's question was who is the person that you see on the dance floor or what kind of person do you see on the dance floor that gets you excited that makes you think this is going to be a good party oh like who do i if i see them on the dance floor it's going to be a good time you know what i mean who are you looking for might not even be a specific person but a kind of person. Wow. A kind of party. You know what's interesting? Because I love to dance, but I don't necessarily need to be in the center. I know because you're cool. Okay. I don't need to be in the center. I know, I know.

1:03:01I know, that's what cool people do. They dance on the side. They dance on the side. I'm on the side. I'm in the cut. You know what I mean? Doing the two steps. Oh, oh. It's so good. I know, barely moving looking cool. I get it. I'm not breaking a sweat. You mean you're not breakdancing in the middle? No. Like the person that's like hopping and pumping and going for it? But you know what, though? I fuck with those people, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you need that person. Party pumper. You need the Beyonce. I'll tell you what I can bring to a party. What's that? I'll be the first one on the dance floor.

1:03:32Yeah, you will. Because you're not, you don't have any problems about it. I don't care. And somebody's got to start it and nobody wants to. And we've been at like industry parties where it's like, this is a great DJ. Nobody's dancing. We got to start this. Like, what are we going to talk to each other? Like, enough of that. Let's go. I'll sacrifice myself and be number one. Hopefully a friend. But maybe sometime. That's why you're the coolest. I love reading Bossy Pants. I love that section about you. When Tina says, like, when Amy got in there, it was like, oh, things have changed. Things are going to be different around here.

1:04:02Such a great passage where she talks about you coming to SNL. And I think that's a reflection of you at a party. Like, you're not afraid to be the first. Well, I don't be embarrassed. I don't care. which is what makes you amazing but what who who do you like to see what type of person type of person or like is there a friend that you're like okay they're here you know what i like a person who can actually dance like yeah like like i'm i'm not skilled you're not taught we just going off of the vibes who's a good dancer well a lot of the cats from cats like we have an after party and i'm like oh yeah i'm not i'm not even doing a two-step over here i'm gonna let y 'all do what you're doing um um like yeah i think a lot of the drag queens like are are doing a different kind of vibe because they because they know choreography yes that's the thing like dancers who and performers i really i really love watching them because there's an art to it there's something to it i was saying earlier it's like magic it is it is i like watching people dance that's why that's I don't I'm like I don't want to get in the way I don't I want to just like catch a vibe be a part of the groove but I love watching people that actually know how to dance how to dance because I could watch them all night okay and the last question today is what are you because I know you love are you you're like a culture vulture you keep up yeah what right now are you watching listening to what are you into give me some wrecks it could be a video that you can't stop watching.

1:05:36It could be... So much. And like, let's have it be funny, okay? I can't watch anymore. I know you were going to say... I know, I'm about to go half man. Sorry. I was about to say you were going to go half man and baby reindeer. Okay, I'm looking to laugh. I know, I know. Sorry, I know. I like the deep, dark shit. Even though I think that's technically a comedy. I know, I know. Oh, God. Okay, damn. Are you a couples therapy girl? Okay, couples therapy. The most recent season?

1:06:04Okay. okay okay first of all who do we want to tell what i'll take it away from this specific couple and just say in general what is so good about couple therapy please i think is that you watch it and you're like i got these two pets you think you think you like you're always proven a little wrong oh my gosh i am anyway like it's like i know what this problem is this person this person You think you're good. I like therapy. Yeah. And then they start to talk and you're like, oh, they're not here for that. They're here for the other thing. And also, I don't know what I'm talking. You know, like, like, we don't know anyone's shit.

1:06:45I'm not smart. I'm not Dr. Orna. She has a PhD. Exactly. Like, I love being proven wrong because I'm like, that guy is not right for her. And she's too whatever. And then it's like, no, you're not. You're wrong. Like, you're not. You don't know. And the way in which you watch how different everybody's communication styles are. Whoa. Very different. Everybody should be watching couples therapy. I agree. Whether you're in a relationship or not. Absolutely right. Okay. You learn so much about yourself. You learn so much. And those couples are awesome for participating in it. Oh, my God. Yeah, truly.

1:07:23Yeah. Because what I also learned is that we all have childhood traumas. Usually comes out around episode four. Uh-huh, yeah. And it's never what you expect. Nope. Ever. Nope. And you see how that is playing out in their relationship. Yeah. And my hope is, and also, you know, I've been therapized. I'm in therapy. I didn't say who am I therapist? Sorry about it. Relax. But I've learned a lot about myself in terms of how I show up as an adult based on how I was raised. I mean, it sounds very simple and easy to understand, but you sometimes have to really question your own behavior. Like, why did I do this?

1:08:06Why did I behave this way? Why am I struggling with boundaries? Like, what is that? And it's like, oh, because I didn't have, no, my mom didn't have boundaries with me when I was a kid. And so now I have to learn that for myself as an adult or my partner has an abandonment wound. And so when I go quiet or I leave without saying goodbye, it triggers her in a way that I wouldn't think it would. And so and that's why I think learning and therapy that vulnerability is a strength. And a lot of people want to protect that or I don't want to tell you this this hard thing. And the thing I learned, too, is like truth does no harm in that.

1:08:42And so I've had to get really honest with like people I love or say like, hey, this is a part of me that I'm ashamed of. I'm embarrassed by. But I want to say it out loud and see where you stand. not to test you to see if you'll stay, but rather so you know exactly who I am and you can make an informed decision about whether or not you want to stay. That's so well said. And you, Lena, you just said something that, like, I watch it a lot to just get scripting for how to say things. Wow, that's good. Because it's like, sometimes I'll break the window when there's a door right next to it that's open.

1:09:18Like, you want to get something out, but the way you say it, it's like, it's good practice. just what you just said, like, hey, I want to share this thing with you and I want to know how you feel. But like just the gentle way into the vulnerability is like just practice, because if you don't see it, you know, if you don't see you don't have tools or practice to figure out how to talk to people about how you feel, then it just can be like either shocking or like you said, like we withdraw or we like over. It's humans are fascinating. They really. And I think that's why I love the show so much. And it's so interesting because, you know, I hear sometimes single people, particularly in this case, single women who have a certain age and like I'm single and the only way I want a relationship is if it brings joy to my life or if it makes me happier.

1:10:06And it's so funny because I always think that is not how a relationship feels. That's not how that goes. Like if you expected somebody to come and bring just joy and happiness and fun and romance, like, no, it's like imagine looking in a mirror all the time. Yeah. A real true relationship makes you confront the stuff in yourself. That you want to run away from. Totally. We are fascinated with the beginnings of things. Yes. We're fascinated with the like young people, young love, people falling in love. Yes. We're just so into it. and then everybody gets there and then we never ask them another question again we never talk to people who've been married for 10 years and like how's it going what's going on whatever we're just like interested in who people are dating or when they break up or whatever but the middle the in between is like nobody even nobody talks about it they don't nobody asks any questions about it and it's the same way with like i'm finding the same way with like middle age like people are really fascinated with like you know young people on the rise and they're fascinated with like the gravitas of being the legend.

1:11:16And you're like, there's a lot of middle here. Yeah. There's a lot of things happening. That's true. You know, I mean, I'm 42. And so I think. Little baby, little tiny baby. What? 42, so cute. Okay. No, no. No, 42, 42. 42 is interesting. It's interesting. Millennials are old now. No. It's weird. I feel it. I'm like, I'm a young elder. I'm childless by choice. I have no desire to raise children. But I think what you're saying in terms of the falling, the newness of something, I think that to me is something I do get a little frustrated with. We romanticize the meet cute. Oh, yeah. And the meet cute is cool.

1:12:01It's great. Yeah. But I think what I'm learning so much is being comfortable in the boredom. Yes. Comfortable in the quiet. Or how about this? What is contentment? Like, what is contentment? Because familiarity breeds contempt. That's right. And, oof, we can talk about this forever. I know, we got to land the plane. I mean, because there's nothing like, I mean, I'm sure you watch couples therapy. We'll wrap it up by saying couples therapy can kind of feel like almost like a board game where you're watching after many seasons and then a person will say something and their partner will be like, ugh.

1:12:35And roll their eyes and you're like, and there it is. Couples therapy is so good. It's just great. Like everybody, that's my big thing. Couples therapy. And I'm trying to think if there's like. Everybody just watch as much therapy as they can. And like music, I'm trying to think. I don't have my phone, but like, please listen to Tim's T-E-M-S. Amazing singer. Phenomenal. She's great. That Lauryn Hill tribute. Phenomenal. Jesus Christ. Lauryn had to get up there. Lauryn said, I can't let y 'all do a tribute without me being a part of it. I know. She said, let me get up here and do my song. One album.

1:13:06But technically people sleep on Unplugged. Go listen to Lauryn Hill, Unplugged, back on MTV, used to do that. I love that album. Love that record. Her voice is like scratchy and she's real. She done been through some stuff. Yeah. It's like, it's the album post success. Yeah. Yeah. Telling you about some shit. But God, it would have taken, I wish there was like 10 more albums from her. But see, here's the deal. We can't demand labor. I know. We really got to get out of here. I know. I'm probably late for another hang that I was supposed to have. And they're like, what was you doing hanging with Amy?

1:13:36Classic. That's what we would do. Thank you for coming and doing this. This was so fun. Thank you so much, Lena Waithe. That was so fun. I could have talked to you forever. And we talked about so many great things. And so for this Polar Plunge, I just want to remind everybody how incredible Debbie Allen is. If you haven't seen her work, Debbie Allen was, well, she kind of broke into the scene for us anyway in a show called Fame where she plays this incredible dance teacher. And Debbie herself is a choreographer, an actress and producer. And she was Lydia Grant, who was telling Leroy to find the soul within him to learn how to dance.

1:14:12And she did a million episodes of A Different World. You can catch her talking to Lena Waithe on her podcast, Legacy Talk. They have an incredible conversation. And she's the sister of Felicia Rashad from The Cosby Show. I mean, talent family up the wazoo. So Debbie Allen, if you're listening, I love you. Thank you for being so talented in so many things. Thank you for listening. Thank you for doing the podcast, Lena. And thanks, everybody. And we'll see you soon. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler.

1:14:50The show is produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullin, and Alaya Zanaris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original music by Amy Miles. I wonder what's a really good, hey.