A Different Take on Screen Time

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2:06For period protection that keeps up with school, sleepovers, and sports, go to nicksteen.com and use the code GOODINSIDE for 15 % off. That's K-N-I-X teen.com, code goodinside. This week, I'm joined by Ash Brandon. Ash is an educator, a researcher, and a former middle school teacher who's on a mission to help families rethink screen time. You might know Ash from Instagram as the Gamer Educator, where they share practical, compassionate tools to help parents set boundaries without shame or power struggles. And exciting news, Ash's brand new book, Power On hits bookstores everywhere on August 26th.

2:50This conversation really stuck with me and it gave me so much insight into some of my own triggers around my own kids' screen time. That's one of the things Ash and I talk about. And I can't wait for you to hear this conversation because I know you will also learn something new, have a reframe for how you think about screen time, and also feel empowered to deal with screen time with your kids in a way that feels good instead of ridden with guilt. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this.

3:32Hi, Ash. Hi. I'm so excited to have you here. I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much. Okay, we're going to talk about so many different things, screen time and misconceptions and reframes. I know you love all those things. I do, too. But I'm just thinking about the time of year. And I feel like I hear from parents in this kind of summer to fall transition all the time. Just like, I feel like I had a lot of screen time over the summer. I feel like it's time to tighten up. Just in this moment of time when I think that thought is in so many parents' heads, like, where do you go from there in terms of even how parents are thinking about it, tightening up, what that means, summer to fall, screen time in general this time?

4:10Tell me your thoughts. Yeah, I think summer is that like kind of wonderful time where we can get more relaxed and flexible. And then we see sort of the like the coming reality of, oh, yeah, and then we have to go back to the school year and all the things that that entails. and I feel like a lot of caregivers want to, you know, prepare so that we are setting ourselves up for success. And when it comes to things like technology, I think it is helpful sometimes to think about, well, what maybe was or wasn't working for us before? Or what are some things that maybe came up over the summer where we've relaxed a bit?

4:50Maybe there's some things with that actually were kind of nice, maybe felt kind of good. Maybe we got in a routine of having a family movie night or, you know, eating dinner on the couch and we picked a movie and actually it really was a lovely thing. Yeah. Maybe that's something we can continue to incorporate. And then maybe there are things where we know, okay, but we still got to get out of the door on time or something like that. And then we think about, okay, if that's the need of our family, How do I how do I make sure that we're incorporating the need of our family and starting from that place when I'm thinking about our relationship with screen?

5:29Yeah. So I just want to double click on something because I do think you're right away doing something. I think that happens for me a lot, too, like almost shifting the question before you answer it, because I think especially with screens, there's just a lot of what's the right amount? What's the wrong amount? What's good screen time? What's bad screen time? We did too much in the summer. We need to cut back. And I think what you're saying is you're starting not with those questions, but from something around like what's going on in your family? What does your family need? What works? It's kind of a little more personalized or a little more focused on the family first.

6:05So can you just like flesh that out a little? Absolutely. So when I've been doing like this kind of focus on Instagram for the last few years, I've said that I have three main tenets. and first is that screen time is in many ways a social inequity issue which I'm happy to come back to and drag out my soapbox the second is that screens can be a part of our lives without being the center of our lives which I think is what many families really want for their kids and then the third is that screen time should work for the whole family we should be considering the whole family I think we often get kind of myopically focused on our kids for good reason Right.

6:44We're thinking about what this could do to them or how it could be helpful to them. And the reality is, is that in many ways, screen time is often functioning to help alleviate burden for adults. And a lot of that is not necessarily avoidable. If I'm a single parent or I have a caregiver who is working like swing shift and so I'm alone for big chunks of my parenting, there are going to be things that need help. Like I need a tool that's going to help me lift that burden. And if I don't have other things available to me, something has to fill in that gap. And oftentimes it's going to be something like a screen.

7:27And we might wish that there's something else to fill in for that. And I would as well. It's not great that we sometimes have these gaps. And if this is something that can fill in those gaps, then instead of focusing just on a child, sometimes it helps to instead think, OK, not what is this doing to my child, but what is it allowing me to do for them? And I think that that can often guide what the purpose of it is and if it is working for all of us in the family. Well, one of the things I hear a lot from parents is, OK, I feel like my kids on the screen too much. And then I feel like I'm such a bad parent.

8:07I'm so embarrassed. I don't want anyone to know. There's there's so much shame. Right. And the irony also there is the things that we hold a lot of shame around, we actually can't even change. We might want to change them, but the shame keeps us so stuck. So what I'm responding into what you're saying is let's let's put the shame to the side here. Screens, you know, in our busy world can do a lot of different things for the family. It's not just about a kid. There's a lot going on. And maybe you do want to shift screen time. But thinking about it more from a place of what actually works for my whole family?

8:43What will I feel good about going to bed at night? Not what's right, what's wrong, what's my neighbor doing? Like not from kind of such a place of judgment. Absolutely. And I think when we come from that place of fear, fear is not empowering. I'm not going to make my best decisions when I'm acting out of fear or shame. And when we're focused on the potential of what could go wrong or thinking like, well, I need to minimize this as much as possible because that's what I am thinking of as healthy. Healthy doesn't always mean minimal. And really what we want is something sustainable. And we also recognize that our kids are going to grow up to be adults in a technologically driven world that we can't even really fully comprehend, I think.

9:32It's going to be even different than the world that we're in and how technologically driven it is. So really our goal is to also make sure that we're raising kids who are digitally literate and can be digitally safe. And that's hard to do if we are framing these things from a place of fear. I can give my kid and empower my child to have a relationship with technology that might work for them long term if I'm able to view them with a sense of neutrality. And I think that that is really important. And I think that's very difficult for a lot of people because they associate, as you said, the amount of screen time that their kid has, it has some like an inverse relationship with their value as a parent, right?

10:16If their kid is on screens a lot, then they might think, this is bad parenting. Like it might be benefiting me, but I shouldn't be doing that. I should be prioritizing my child. but that's where it comes back to what is it allowing yeah what is it allowing to have happen in our family let's go through a few kind of scenarios like let's get specific so let's start with a parent who's saying okay maybe i'm not even judging myself hardcore but like i just think we've got to get school routines in order you know my kid i'm making this up but my kid starts their day with hours on the screen in the summer it's been fine it is what it is it's obviously not going to work when we have to get out the door at 7.30, 6.45, 8 o 'clock, whatever it is.

10:57And I'm nervous. Like my kids freak out when I change the rules. And how do I go about that? Like, how do we start? Yeah. So in my book that's coming out, I have the kind of last third is really devoted to really helping families make a structure that's going to work for them and kind of walks through this process. But you already outlined some of what will go into it. So first, we think about, okay, what's the need? And if the need is like, we have to be out the door by 745, right, then that might already determine whether or not screens are going to happen in the morning. Yeah. Right. Maybe we know, well, my kid can barely get out of bed by 715.

11:36So I don't really think there's time in there. Or maybe they are a super early riser and there would be. And so if we know, okay, that's the need, then we can ask ourselves, what input can I let my child contribute to this? And I think that is so important. People, regardless of age, we want to feel like we're contributing to a decision that involves us. And that doesn't mean that we are necessarily guiding it. But if we feel like we have some agency and some input and we're being listened to or considered, it's going to go a long way to, I think, making a rule or a boundary that's going to have some buy-in.

12:18So I think no one likes feeling done to. Nobody likes that at any age, right? But what is that line between, okay, what is input? What is giving my kid my job, you know, and asking them to do my job for me? So let's just take this scenario. Let's say you have a kid out the door by 745. Let's say this kid, you know, you decide screen time in the morning is just not it's not going to end up being great. What's like the nitty gritty? How should we go about that? With the input that they gave. So if it's you know what? My need is we're out the door by 745. This is sort of my non-negotiable. Like we can't suddenly leave at eight.

12:56Right. And oftentimes in the morning, it's like if we're at 745 and 45 seconds, that can like throw off the whole morning. Yes. And so if that's the need and that's the non-negotiable, then I might be leading with that in terms of like, this is the reality. And that means that screens are not going to be available before we leave in the morning. And I know that's different. And then give them something that they can help determine. So then think about, OK, well, when in the day could it be and what could be up to them? And if it is, well, once we get home, it actually could be whenever. then maybe we let them be the person who makes that decision so that then they're feeling like, okay, this is what I can immediately guide and have input in.

13:54So many times I think the decisions we're making as a parent are changes in rules, like a change in screen time rules. They feel like they can go south. They feel like it's a disaster. I think a lot of the times we're almost asking our kid to like help us make that decision. Like, and so I'll voice it over because I definitely used to do this too. So people always think I'm a good actress. I'm like, that's complicated. I just used to say these things myself. There's no acting required. So, hey, look, we're starting school. don't you think it's going to be a good idea to not have screens in the morning because it'll be rushed and don't you think it would be better and i've seen for my own kids and then working with families how dysregulating that is for kids and then i think parents the language we have is yeah because then my kid takes advantage no it's kind of like my pilot saying like don't you think we should make an emergency landing i'd be like are you seriously asking me that right like just make the decision.

14:57And then I maybe can have a reaction about whether I want, I don't know, a refund or if I want to change my flight. But don't involve me in a decision that really isn't my domain. And so I think what you're saying is, I just want to reflect back, make sure I'm getting it right. If you have a non-negotiable as a parent, take some time, figure out what that is, and then lead with that. Because you can still let your kid have agency, but now there's no confusion about where that agency lies. absolutely and what i think is so funny is that that framework of like having some very clear boundaries or rules or non-negotiables whatever word you want to use that really is how video games work which is oh tell me more so think about i feel like now i'm like in you know that like not the matrix but i'm like this is like a meta conversation about the conversation i'm excited Have you played a video game before?

15:51Of any kind. I feel... I'm going to de-shame myself. This is very revealing. I know. I am not... I have not really played that many video games. But, like, have you played Pac-Man? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Okay, of course. You never know. So, okay. Is that a good example to use? Yeah, great. Okay. So, like, you're playing Pac-Man. Or Super Mario. Like, back in the day Mario? Oh, yeah. Oh, like original, like... Yeah. Great. Okay. So you're playing Mario, right? and you notice that there's, you know, the brick blocks and the little question blocks, right? And you figure out what happens by testing them, right?

16:32So you go up and you jump under the brick block, and when you're Tiny Mario, and it just moves up, right? It just goes back down. But then you go to the question mark block as Tiny Mario, and you get a coin or a star, whatever happens, right? So you're learning the conditions of the level. You're learning the rules. And then learning how the world works. Yes. And then you get your one up mushroom and you get bigger. And then you learn that, oh, if I hit bricks as big Mario, then it will break. Yeah. And you test these over and over again to make sure as a player that they are what they say they are, that they're sturdy.

17:10and if for example if like one out of every 100 times that you jumped under one of those brick blocks if instead of breaking it would randomly I don't know like warp you to the end of the level what would you do you would stand under that and you would jump as many times as you need to to get that outcome because now it's there's a there's a chance right so the video games are very good at laying out the sort of non-negotiables here's the walls here's the levels here's like the edge of the world here's what the characters will say but then what you do within those rules gives you a lot of freedom you can do whatever you want within those rules if you want to stand and do nothing.

17:59If you want to run off the edge of the world, if you want to test them, you can. But I feel like rules and boundaries for kids provide that sense of like, here's the world we're in. Here are the things that you can count on, whether or not you like that, right? Sometimes we don't like the rules that are presented to us in a game or in real life. But then we know, oh, okay, so my freedom is within these things. And there's a lot of agency and a lot of autonomy that comes from that. I think that is so beautifully stated. And the thing about it that it also makes you think about is let's say in Super Mario, right?

18:38Where when I'm little, I'm not gonna like maybe be able to reach the bricks or break it, right? Where if I try over and over when I'm little, try. The bricks aren't like getting mad at me. The bricks aren't like, come on, Mario. Come on, why you keep doing this, Mario? Like the bricks are just the bricks. They're like, I kind of know my rule. And like Little Mario can press me as many times as Little Mario wants and nothing's going to happen. They don't like the bricks don't take it personally. Thousand percent. Yes. I'm so glad you picked up on that. Yes. The video game enforces the rules consistently, but neutrally.

19:09Right. So you can do you can do all that rule breaking or attempted rule breaking as many times as you want. And the game is not going to admonish you. And it's not going to be like, how many times do we have to tell you? Stop trying this. This is not what you're supposed to be doing. Right. And there is freedom in that. There is a sense of autonomy in that and in being able to test that just to make sure. Yeah. And I will say someone who still plays video games in my life, if I'm talking to like a character in the game, I will talk to them like at least three times to make sure that I've heard everything they're going to say.

19:43And then once they start looping, I think, OK, I can stop talking to them now because I've made sure I've exhausted all the information. but I learned that by testing. Yeah. And that's obviously, that's more fun in a video game than it is when you're the parent. In real life. No prizes. No. No. In real life. No coins. Yeah. And there's no like power ups. No. I know. One of the things I always say is, like, I think about boundaries a lot. And, you know, I think people have some unconscious fantasy for me that like I go over to my kids and let's say it is screen time. Screen time is over and you're allowed to be upset.

20:18And my kid's like, Mom, you are such a sturdy leader. I really love you. You're really crushing it right now. Two coins. It's never happened. No. You usually get rewarded with a tantrum at first. That's usually the reward. Like, you know, you know, although over time, if you are relatively consistent, none of us are all the time, then those reactions decrease because at some level, your kid thinks this is how the world works. I got it now. I'll move on to the next one to test. Exactly right. There's that feeling of consistency. Yes. And that doesn't necessarily mean they like it. And we also know, and I know this is something you say a lot, is I take a lot of, I do a lot of comparisons between video games or technology and food.

21:02And I think a lot about the division of responsibility model with food. You know, parent or adult is in control of what? Like Ellen Satter's. Yeah. What is available and when, right? And a child decides how much to eat and what's available. Well, I really think about screens the same way. an adult decides what content is available and when and a child decides what to do within the content that is allowed which might mean they're doing something ridiculous for that half hour because they're testing a rule but I think the other part that's really important is that a child's job is also to have feelings about it yeah and wow they're really good at that part of their job they really it seems like every generation we're getting a little better it's a lot of a lot a range of feelings.

21:47No, no, it really is true. And look, you know, one of the reframes, whether we're talking about screen time or anything else with boundaries, is when you realize your kids' big feelings are actually a sign you just set a boundary. Because some parents know it's hard for me to set boundaries and I'm working on setting boundaries. And it is true. It would be amazing if the world worked where it's hard for me to set a boundary. So when I set a boundary, I get coins and unicorns and rainbows and, you know, that would be an ice cream cone. That doesn't happen. But having a signal is helpful. So if you start realizing my kids whining and complaining or protesting, it's not the it's not the sign I would choose, but it is a sign that I just set a boundary.

22:29It's I think it's less likely you interpret it as a sign you're doing something wrong and actually a sign you're doing your job. Right. Yes. And I think with technology and particularly with screens, I think it hits a little bit differently. I think parents is in that moment I think we're in that place mentally where we might already be wrestling with should I even allow this should I have said yes to this I'm worried about what it might do and then if at the end they're protesting we reasonably are thinking like there's that part of your brain or at least my brain that's like you should be happy I said it 100 % like can you not assuage my guilt with year compliance yeah like for real isn't that what my kids supposed to do and also it's like okay if we peel that back too it's like okay if we were in another scenario if we were at a playground at a pool at a friend's house and they protested our tantrum because they didn't want to leave we probably wouldn't blame the playground we probably wouldn't blame the pool you know This freaking pool.

23:39Pools are bad. And we also probably would not say, well, we can't come to this playground ever again. Like we instead are able to look through the medium and see the skill. Yes. And see, okay, so it's hard to leave fun places. It's hard to stop in the middle of things. Whatever the underlying feeling is. Yes. And that's often what's happening when kids are having a hard time on technology. And because we might have our own association with that technology, like I shouldn't be doing this. I'm a bad parent if I do this. And that kind of supersedes. And that's why I talk so much about having neutrality.

24:26Because when we can be neutral, that doesn't mean it's a free-for-all, right? Like chips are neutral morally. And broccoli is neutral morally. and we can offer them in different amounts or with different frequencies. And we can be similar with how we think about technology because when I can think about it neutrally, then I can also make comparisons to other parts of my kid's life and see the skill and how it transfers. I really mean this. That is, it's such a brilliant layer to add to this. I haven't ever thought about that before. So I feel like that's one part of this conversation and it's gonna stick with me that it is so true.

25:03Our kids get upset at the end of screen time. Our kids get upset when we say they can't have a third ice cream scoop. If they had whatever the rule is, our kids get upset. Sometimes they get upset when we say yes to the thing they just ask us for. That is very true. Again, it's the being so good at feelings in this generation. And so rarely in those situations, probably because it's not so complicated by our own set of conflicts or guilt or narrative, that we are more likely to realize it is so hard to end things that are fun. It is so hard to stop things that you want to keep doing. It is so hard for something that's enjoyable to ever feel like enough.

25:39Right. But with screens, we are so quick to rattle off like we're never doing this again. And I'm throwing away your iPad. And, you know, this is bad. And I knew it. And I'm a horrible parent. And I think you're so right that that, you know, has to do with what we've been telling ourselves in our narrative. And if we do see it as, again, it's always hard to end things that are fun. That's true for four-year-olds and 44-year-olds. Absolutely. Right. Like no one. I think humans are just never that good at wanting things and not having them. And I don't know if we ever want to be that good at them.

26:08You want to be good enough to like function in society. But it's good to know what you want. Yeah. It drives you. Right. And also, and I think this is part of it, too. It's OK to have leisure, be leisure. And I think with something like screens or video games or more passive activities in terms of like their productivity. Right. I think we might look at that and go, well, but they could have been doing something better with their time. But leisure for the sake of leisure is also valid. Yeah. And everybody deserves that. And that includes our kids. OK, so now this is like this is like not on my questions.

26:44Like throw these out. But you just, you know, brought something up in me. I'll never forget talking to my therapist years ago and I was talking about coming home with our kids and being exhausted on Sundays because we often would travel for the weekend and so tired and you know my kids would go off and do their thing and my husband would be on the couch chilling for a little bit I was just taking my therapist like something's wrong with him like I don't understand like there's so much to unpack there's so much unpack and like like I don't get it and like and then we get in a fight of course and I'll never forget my therapist saying I think you need his help and I was like yeah I know and he goes let me finish she goes I think you need his help sitting on the couch literally like I don't think you heard me is he paying you secretly yeah like literally like what the fresh heck is happening because like you no no he needs to help me and he's like you sound really tired and like some version of rest is not a reward and also if i'm gonna be direct i think you're so triggered because there's a part of you that wants to sit on the couch and you don't know how to give yourself permission i was like why does that always come back to us but i think is this all connected to like when i see my kids you're like yeah it is connected well i keep going because i'm i went in and i feel like you could be reading like you could be doing art like can we finish this let's play a family board game.

28:06I do love board games. And like, I just, it's, it's hard for me to, it's hard for me. It's just, it's hard for me to stay neutral. I haven't thought about that word since you've been saying it. It's hard for me to stay neutral. Yeah. I hadn't really thought of it quite in the terms that you have. I often think of it from the kind of weight that we put on our own parenting, like ability or our goodness as a parent. And I think we want to do right by our kids and we want to always be doing the best for our kids. And that is a noble thing. That's not a bad thing. And so if our kids are doing something like using their iPad or watching a movie, we kind of put into that all the things we can think of that we think hold more value.