Broadway's Leslie Odom Jr. & Nicolette Robinson Talk Parenting

0:00I live in New York City and I've always loved Broadway. The energy, the emotion, the way a performance can make you feel something so deeply. Just the other day I saw a show and tears were streaming down my face. Tears I didn't know I clearly had to let out. This is why I'm especially excited about my guest today. I'm talking with Leslie Odom Jr. He's the original Aaron Burr from Hamilton. He's the voice you hear on the soundtrack. And his incredible wife, also an amazing artist, Nicolette Robinson. You might know her from Waitress. we end up talking about topics that are relevant for everyone.

0:37The relationship they have with their families of origin, what it really means to be a cycle breaker, and the amazing life they've created offstage. This is a conversation that's going to resonate with you deeply because Leslie and Nicolette really show up. They're real, they're honest, and they constantly put words to things that most of us think in the back of our mind, but maybe have never actually heard someone say. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this.

1:20Hi. Hi. So happy to have you guys here. Okay, we're going to cover so many different things. Let's just orient ourselves. I mean, I think when people probably see the two of you, they see, which is true, these stars, like so much success and, you know, grace and this chemistry and performers that you've been in, all just so much amazingness there. And I think probably what they don't see is, I don't know, the work, the recalibration, what's led here. And so maybe we can just start. I love to hear. like tell me a little bit about who you are that isn't just so obvious on the stage or on the screen you want to tell who i am and i'll tell who you are love that sure i like that yeah say yes oh nicolette comes from a family of performers entertainers entertainment type people and um I, I'm going to talk about it like she's not here, but, um, you know, the thing that actually attracted me most about Nicolette is that, you know, she is more talented than she'd even have to be.

2:34She's more gifted than she'd even have to be. You know, her parents did this wonderful job of, raising a beautiful person, you know, it's not about, if she was ugly inside, she'd be not as attractive outside. You know, the first few years that we were dating, I just kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. You know, like, when am I going to see the other side of this person? And it's just who she is. She's just a good, good inside. You know, she's really just a good human being. Her parents did such a fantastic job. But she's also grown. We've been together 17 years now. So I've also seen her really grow from a young woman, you know, girlish to this, to this boss, you know, she really does.

3:21Not only does she manage her career in such an intentional and thoughtful, personal way, you know, the way she does her business is not the way that I do my business. I've grown to respect that. But she really manages our little family like a company. You guys have a lot in common. When I met you on the street, I was like, my wife is going to freak out. Yeah, I think that you guys would have a lot in common. She gets things done. So I could go on and on but she's my favorite she's my favorite actor uh she's my favorite person to spend time with outside of our kids um and yeah that's my girl that's very sweet it really is oh i secretly said that we should talk about each other just to make him talk about me i mean by the way and that's gonna be my new go-to like who doesn't want to hear someone say nice things about them When do you ever really do that?

4:28Seriously, thank you for the new interview structure. I love that. Well, who's Leslie? Leslie is a Leo to the core. My third is a Leo. So let me just. You know how that is. I mean, vibrant, a host with a capital H. loves to host a room, whether it's friends or, you know, people he's just met. I mean, you know, you, you guys went to go see his show and afterwards you're, you're hosting during the show and then you're also hosting afterwards. And, you know, he takes a lot of pride in, um, making people feel seen and feel welcome. And, um, he's what a lot of people don't know is that he's deeply sensitive and, and sweet.

5:24Um, honestly, just watching him be a father is just, um, seeing a whole side of him that, you know, the guy who's on stage, who's just this dynamite explosion of talent and, um, uh, seeing him as a dad is just like

5:51so special and, um, it's just so loving and so playful and silly and way more patient than I am, I think. Um, and, and I think a big thing that I'll say, just having been together for 17 years and really, um, you know, you go on this journey together and you see each other from the start. I was 20 when we started dating. He was 27 when we started dating. And that's, you know, going from that to whatever ages we are right now. You can't do math, right? You can't do math. No, don't do math. There's no math on the podcast.

6:29I've witnessed this man grow in a way that I don't even know if I could grow in the way that he has. I mean, I think that what's so special about you is he's so willing to dive in and do the work. You know, being a Leo, there's a stubbornness, I feel like. There's a thing that, like, you are so intelligent and so good at what he does. So he's not always wrong very often or he doesn't think he's wrong very often. But when you can really get to him and convince him to understand, you know, your side or whatever it is that we're learning about, he is so willing to acknowledge when there is room to grow and to change.

7:18And he, even just over the past year, I've seen him become a whole new person in the most beautiful way. Yeah. You know, when I think about like marriage and what we all take on in some ways, like the best thing you can say or try to get to know about your partners if they're open to change, because however you are when you meet. Like, I always think when you get married to someone, you're kind of like, OK, this distance is what feels good to us. And each person is going to grow. And so the only way for you to stay that close is if like both people are committed or you're both committed to not growing, which is really sad.

7:55Right. and being open and being willing, you know, to that process, knowing you're going to change and, you know, you're willing to do that, I think is, is something I'll tell my kids to like look out for in a partner. Yeah. And you decide as you go, you know, are we growing together? Are we growing in the same direction? Are we growing in a way that we want to continue this? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I'm going to come back to that and to parenting, but I actually want to, I always like to start because I feel like some of that starts earlier. So as actors, performers, you know, what I think about so often is so many times the people who are successful in those crafts in adulthood.

8:34I don't know. Like they had a lot of creativity. They had a lot of energy. They weren't necessarily in the box, you know, the easiest kids. I don't know. Like what was it like? Yeah. What what what hits you about that? Like and where did your creativity, your art kind of where did that start? we're both very very different kids growing up okay um and very different households as well and so I mean for me I I my mom was a choreographer growing up and so I I grew up sitting against the rehearsal mirrors just watching dance rehearsals of musicals and shows and my dad was always at the piano and my dad was directing things and teaching acting classes and so it was really around me in that way.

9:19And then my mom was my dance teacher in high school. So I really got into acting then. But I was the kind of kid that I was a very well behaved kid. And I wouldn't say that this one, but I was the kid that would just be in her room, you know, sitting in front of the mirror, like dreaming about pretending different acting films and scenes and super nerdy in that way but I I was just a lot more what is what's this word contained yeah contained probably but still very vibrant and loved you know getting involved in extracurriculars and stuff but I think this one can uh share a different experience a different story yeah yeah I mean I grew up in a house with a fair amount of trauma and so I I think I'd love to know what you think about this but I kind of think that a kid is gonna express themselves somewhere they're gonna come apart somewhere and I wasn't allowed to come apart at home.

10:22So I came apart, you know, I tested the limits and did all that stuff outside the home. Our kids are the opposite, you know, our kids oftentimes in school and stuff, you know, people are meeting the best versions of our kids because they come apart at home, which I think is, we're trying that. Yeah, we're trying that. It feels, yeah, I was much safer at school, to be honest. So yeah. Yeah. And I think that I've been thinking quite a bit about myself as a child and what led to where I've arrived. Because in so many ways, I've arrived at the life that I always dreamed about as a kid. And that's really only recently that I've really become aware of that.

11:12It's a really satisfying thing. And I think that, you know, I don't do, if you'll permit me to talk about myself for a second, I think that one of the things that might be interesting about me is sort of how alive my internal world can be. You know, when people watch me, there's a lot going on inside. And for the first time, that's what it was as a kid. I had so, I had a whole world going on in here that I was not allowed to express. I had to keep it all inside. So I got really good at that. I got really, I mean, there were so many things that I wanted to say. There was so many feelings. You know what I mean?

11:59There was so many, I wanted to lash out. But outside it was, you know, whatever mask I was required to have in my house. And so anyway, I've put it to good use. You know, these, I do think that, you know, when I'm at my best, if you're watching me, there can be something compelling about, I mean, that, that performer is always thinking there's something happening in there. Right. And that's what my childhood was like. Yeah. So you really remember that. Like you, your internal life was so alive. Yes. That was the only place I was alive. Yeah. I was, I was waiting for my autonomy. me. I was waiting to be free so that I could live fully so that I could live joyfully.

12:43We were so, um, controlled. It was such a, it was just such a stifling environment that I had, I, I, I lived fully inside and I was waiting to get out of there so that I could live outside too. So how did you then, I mean, there's so many avenues that could have come out in some maladaptive or some, at least that would have been ending up being harmful to you. And it seems like performing is, you know, is a healthy avenue for that. But how did you, how did you find it? Or did it, how did it find you? It's a miracle, you know, it's just like, I mean, yeah, no, a childhood like that can just as easily kill you.

13:20Yeah. You know that that's the thing, you know, and sometimes it's, it can be a frustrating thing. It's such a wild thing to survive that and to have a person that was responsible for that kind of look at you and say, how bad could I have done? Look at, look at you. That's really the response. You know, I couldn't have been too bad because look how successful you are. And it's, you know, it can leave you speechless because, you know, it negates all your hard work, all the work you've done to heal, all the work you've done to, to make choices, to make, to be different. It's, it, yeah. my life has been in response to that, in response to that unhealthiness, in response to, right?

14:08But yeah, it's a miracle. I mean, because it could just as easily have taken me down many, many horrible paths.

14:25How do you deal with that now, that type of response? Or is your family still in your life? Um, I have, I made the difficult decision to, um, to separate myself from some people. And, and that's just really just, you know, that that's really an act of love too. It's an act of love for myself and an act of love for them because there was a real part of me that wanted to change them. And I finally accepted them for who they are. They're never going to change. and they don't have to change for me. And so we, I really want to thank you for sharing that. I know there are so many people listening and I, I, I hear from so many people who I think are in a very similar situations.

15:14And the, the truth is all we can do as a kid, when we're in a situation that's overwhelming or scary where our needs aren't getting met, we can't, we can't stop trying because the idea that, well, that's who they are. And I guess I can just change. You're like, well, you're five. Well, you're eight. Like, good luck surviving on your own. So it's a really adaptive thing for a kid to, in some ways, this idea of like, take in the badness. Is the world bad? Are my parents kind of bad? Am I bad? And they kind of think of those black and white terms. And as long as you take in the badness, you have agency.

15:48Okay, if only this or if only that. If I could do this, if I could do that. And to feel helpless. You know, there's this quote that I always come back to from Fairburn that says for kids, it's better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil. And I think we can have a lot of compassion then, even as adults. When you're like, yeah, it is true. I am 20 now or I am 45 now and I could survive on my own. But I guess that idea of trying to change and trying to make it my fault and figuring out what I could do, I kind of get mad at myself now for doing that. But that came from a really crafty, really adoptive place for all the years that my brain was wiring and thought it was protecting me.

16:30And so when we think about it that way, like we can have a lot of love and compassion for ourselves and separate a little. OK, well, now it is now I'm an adult. Right. And I can start to make different decisions. And there was conditioning because it was, you know, when you are raised by one or two emotionally immature people or however many emotionally immature people are around you, you know, there is a part of the conditioning is. Look what you made me do. That I'm not in control of the way I act. You are. You made me. I don't want to be this guy. Look what you know what I mean? Yeah, I destroyed the house.

17:17I ripped it all up. But that's right. And so, like you said, you learn as a kid, you know, when the house is going to shit, who did it? It's not that person's. No. Who set it off? Right. So, yeah, you are conditioned in that way that you are responsible for the weather. You are responsible. And again, think about how terrifying it is for anyone here, like as a kid. Well, if there can be a really scary storm at any moment, and the only thing I can say to myself is, it's not my fault. I guess that just happens. But I live here. Okay. But you can't really survive those two things at once. Like I could be at the brunt of a horrible storm.

18:02Nothing I can do to decrease the likelihood. It's not really my fault. That actually isn't something a child could tolerate and continue day to day. So I guess I, yeah, I made my dad, I made my mom act that way. Even if they don't even say it to me, which a lot of parents do, I'm going to feel that way anyway. So then if they say it, it's just confirmation, right? And it's such a different model of managing your emotions, which is some version of something happened. By the way, it might have involved my kid that brought up frustration. But my behavior around that, my reaction to that, how I managed the frustration, by the way, that has nothing to do with your kid.

18:43That predated your kid's existence. Right. And I think that's such an act of cycle breaking for so many of us. right my kid not listening in the morning yeah of course that's frustrating do I yell because I'm frustrated with my kid no I yell because I can't manage my frustration right big difference huge so think like I feel like cycle breaking is a huge thing right now for so many people and um i just think what he's done in this season in this past year setting boundaries for himself and recognizing the cycle that he can step out of you have boundaries that can protect him has changed his life but also it's affected my life yes affected our kids it's affected everybody that's around him.

19:38I mean, yeah. And I want boundaries are my favorite topic. Actually, there's so many things I'll lie about and I'll say it's my favorite topic, but it always feels true. It's a good one. I say that, okay? Boundaries really are, but they really are my number one. But I want to link it to what you just said and then just come back to your understanding of boundaries and how it plays out. Because if you think about the lesson we all, so many kids learned, you made me do that. It's a boundaryless communication. There's no boundary between something I do and your terrifying reaction, whatever it is.

20:11So, so many of us grew up in households where like, well, whose feelings are whose, who's responsible for what are completely commingled. There's no boundary there. If I'm responsible for, I'm making this up, but my dad, my mom drinking a lot and hitting or yelling or ruining the house, then like, there's no boundary people like i don't even know what a boundary is right completely so so what are boundaries yeah tell me more about that journey around boundaries i have so many thoughts about boundaries but i want to start with yours and what that's looked like felt like i think we're still learning i mean we're it's a constant constant learning but uh really again again and talking about this year and what we've sort of discovered about these boundaries with family and toxic energies in your life.

21:10It's, I think that

21:21I just had a completely new thought, you know, and like in mom brain where you're just like, I do want to say that as we are, you know, growing and discovering this relationship with boundaries, I am most proud of the progress that we've made when I see little moments with our kids of them recognizing their, not responsibility necessarily, but maybe responsibility. But moments where I know if I took responsibility for my energy or my, you know, if I did yell or things that you talk about a lot, I read Good Inside. The moments that I've recognized, you know, it's time for me to repair a moment and come back.

22:11I've seen them model that. And those are the moments that I really feel like, OK, we're making progress. They're hearing me. I'm doing a good job. And because I'm setting boundaries for myself and then coming back and recognizing I probably shouldn't have spoken to you like that. And I'm going to also give you space because it looks like you've asked for some space. So I'm going to give you that or even asking for my own space in the moment. What does that sound like? So, you know, practicing. I'm still learning, but I'm really trying. I really come to him all the time. I'm like, OK, Dr. Becky said we can do this thing.

22:50We'll have our strategy meetings. Yeah, I our son is four. So he has his he's having, you know, super high emotions at times where he doesn't know what to do with his body and it can turn really physical. And so I'm working on, you know, I'm going to I'll try to stop him from hitting if that's what it is. I'm not going to let you hit me right now and I'll try to stay as calm as possible. But if I can't get it to stop, I'm just saying I'm going to go take some space from me because I don't like the way my body feels right now. And I don't like the way that you're I don't like I don't like to be hit or, you know, so I'm going to go out for a little bit.

23:35And usually, I don't know, that response is like, no, no. But that's so beautiful. And I think there is this weird message we've gotten, especially recently in parenting. Like, in some ways, like, all about the kid. Like, this martyrdom, this, in some ways, like, martyrdom is another form of boundarylessness. Ooh, think about it. I mean, it's like, I always say that it just is something I try to think about in the back of my head when I'm making decisions like that. Like, I know I need space or I need to do something for myself. my kids upset about it like I don't want my kid to be like my mom loved me so much she ran herself into the ground like I don't want that about I don't want that story yeah I don't want that model for their partnership one day I don't want that model for love means one partner always gets what they want while the other one's running themselves into the ground and becoming invisible and resentful and that's when we become rageful and completely right and so no and and stopping that cycle means setting boundaries earlier than we think to say like, I need space.

24:35Right. And yeah, it doesn't feel good to a kid to say, you're crazy. No one can be around you like this. Like, all right. But that's very different. Someone's like, yeah, so that means I can't take space. There's many ways to take space, people. Okay. That's one. Another one is maybe even a half second before. Hey, I'm feeling my body feeling hot and activated. I need a moment to myself. if you're a good kid, I'm going to step out. I'll be back in a little bit. I love you. The space is taken both ways, but it's completely different. That's a good one to try to do it before it spirals out of control.

25:11The best way to do that, honestly, is to talk to your kids in calm moments and just say, do you know something I'm going to do from now on? You know what? Sometimes we're in your room and things get a little, you know, I get a little hairy. Let's call a spade a spade. One of the things I'm going to do is tell you earlier when I need a deep breath. And I want you to know in advance that doesn't mean I'm leaving forever. It doesn't mean you did anything to me. We all have moments when we recognize we need something. And actually, you're going to start having moments like that too in your relationships.

25:44And that is such a powerful thing. So by almost saying it like over dinner, and by the way, just I always like tell parents, he's not going to be like, that's profound. No, he's gonna be like, can I have pretzels? Kids always say. Yeah. But they hear it. They do. And also the next time you're like in his room, it's weird when you've already said it in advance. It's almost like you've already heard yourself promise you're going to do it. And they've heard it. So then it's not as much like, don't leave me. It's like, oh, you're, you know, and you could call it, I'm going to call it banana. So I'm going to say to you, banana.

26:16Oh, mom's doing her banana thing, whatever it is. And I do think it makes that boundary setting, it's never easy, but it makes it a little less than impossible. You know? That's great. I love that.

26:36And Leslie, what do boundaries mean to you? Like when you talk about setting boundaries, like what, what did you used to do? Did you have a different definition of boundaries than you do now? Was it just never a word in your vocabulary? It wasn't really a word in my vocabulary. I didn't really understand it. And, um,

26:56I mean, what are they, you know, when I think about it, you know, I just, yeah, I just finally think I have a defined self. I know, I know where I end and where other people begin. And so I just, I'm aware for the first time in my life that other people So yeah, that's not a reflection on me. That's not about me. I used to take this poor person, it was totally not her fault, but as a result of all this childhood mess,

27:39because I felt like I was working so hard to make her happy, right like you know i'm i'm working so hard you know and and not not just to make her happy but i want her to be happy me that yeah yeah that that every that anytime she's in a foul mood or you know that it's about me you know like it's it's just a weird it's this weird thing you know when you're raised by this narcissism thing you know you can take on some of the traits that yeah that everything somehow becomes about you. It's like, you know, so a boundary, what a, it's, it's just set me free so gloriously that not every, not every mood is about me.