How Misty Copeland Turned Instability Into Ballet

0:04You know that feeling when your brain is at full capacity, right? I mean, you have a reminder from the dentist in your email, a birthday party invitation on the fridge, and your kid just texted you about a soccer game they forgot to mention until that moment, and you just cannot remember one more thing. That's where Skylight Calendar comes in. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google, Apple, and Outlook to help your whole family see the days and weeks ahead. And I really love the tasks feature, which is designed to help your kid build routines around things like homework and chores.

0:37And when your kid can do those things independently, it's a huge win for everyone in the family. Skylight Calendar is so much more than just a calendar. It's something you can add to your routine to help your family work together. And right now, Skylight is offering our listeners$30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com slash Becky. That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash B-E-C-K-Y for$30 off your 15-inch calendar. myskylight.com slash Becky. I had a really interesting conversation with my 8-year-old the other day. I was talking with him and my husband. and we were kind of talking about stories from when we were younger about things that we wanted and didn't have and kind of memories of like being at a dance and all the kids having a certain shirt and you know not being able to get that shirt just kind of real life struggles of wanting and not having he ended up asking a really interesting question how much wanting and having versus wanting and not having is good for a kid?

1:46Like what's the right percentage in terms of developing kind of into an adult who's resilient, who works hard? Obviously there's no answer to this question, but it's actually something that kept coming to mind today as I was talking with the absolutely incredible Misty Copeland. Misty grew up in real poverty, in real instability. Men in and out of her home, not being sure what food would be on the table, living in a motel. She started ballet at 13, which probably surprises a lot of us, given we know she's one of the greatest ballerinas of all time. She definitely had an extreme version of wanting and not having.

2:35And I'm not just talking about t-shirts. I'm talking about safety. I'm talking about connection. I'm talking about people asking her basic questions about her life and about her day. And then a lot changed in her tween years. And then here she is today, right? She's the first Black woman to become a principal dancer at American Ballet Theater. She is an icon and she's more than that. She's married. She has a four-year-old son. She delights in the safety and stability of her home today and the love and attention she pours into her child. You're going to get so much out of this conversation I had with Misty today.

3:19It's one that left me with so many new thoughts and things that I want to do today in my home. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is another episode in the series How We're Raised, this one with Misty Copeland. Miss Tisa, you've recently retired from dancing. You have a four-year-old. Just let's get started. Tell me kind of what a normal Tuesday Wednesday looks like for you. Oh my gosh. You know, it's so crazy because I've spent so much of more than half of my life with so much structure and, you know, being a classical ballerina and working for a company. And now I am in this interesting time where I call the shots and I create my own schedule.

4:05So every day looks so different that it's like hard to even say. I mean, I guess the consistent thing is waking up and taking Jackson to school, like getting him ready. So it's really, yeah, that's like the consistent thing is that, you know, he's up at 730. I'm making him right now. It's been like two month straight of challah french toast that he wants every morning i mean that's i'm when do i get the invite yeah i do i do because that is not my morning with my kids or me you know so that yeah my children shall not hear this interview nope i only have one so it's a little easier it's manageable yeah and uh and taking him to school like that's kind of like a non-negotiable unless there's you know you know there are certain circumstances if I'm traveling or something.

4:57But, and then, you know, I have a lot of meetings, whether it's for the foundation or for my production company, depending on if I'm in the midst of writing a book, you know, there'll be time committed to that. I have a book coming out in the fall. So I try and squeeze in, you know, some kind of movement, moving my body. Yeah. I'm kind of back in ballet class a couple times a week doing some personal training, like weightlifting, things like that. Yeah. I travel a lot for like speaking engagements. So there might be something like that in the city or outside. So it's kind of all over the map. But I like that.

5:40I don't think I ever thought I would say that because I crave stability and consistency. yeah and I think I'm now at a stage in my life where I'm like I can function without that well that's what I want to double click on like I'm just thinking about as an outsider to the ballet world but what I would assume is a lot of structure a lot of consistency like even with raw talent talent alone without the hours without the routine I'm guessing does not get someone you know and then I'm thinking about life with a four-year-old you don't know what side of the way you know, they don't know what side of the bed they wake up on, or maybe they do like hollow French toast for their favorite food for 40 days.

6:22And then one day they're like, I hate hollow French toast. I've never liked it. And so, you know, you're like, oh my goodness. And so, yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about that? I don't know, that shift or this part of you, I'm guessing that can really lock into, you know, something planned and sticking with something and a routine. And then at the same time in parenthood, clearly this part of you that can roll with the flow or expect the unexpected? Yeah. I love this question. I feel like classical ballet has prepared me for motherhood in so many ways. And I think it's because there has to be that balance of freedom within the form that happens in ballet.

7:06Freedom within the form. Yes. And so, you know, I think that initially with ballet, what I was so drawn to was that need for the consistency and the stability and knowing that I'm going to show up and like knowing what to expect every day because I did not have that throughout my childhood. Like throughout my youth, there was so much movement and, you know, moving different schools, different fathers. My mother married five times. I mean, there was just so little stability and consistency that I was really craving that. But so as much as ballet, you know, you have to show up again and again. And I think that's something that I needed and wanted was to show up and know I'm going to do my plies and my tendus and my degages.

7:59and it's going to be in the exact same order every single day. And there was a comfort in that, which I think children do crave. But at the same time, there's a creativity. And so it's kind of like the mix of these two things that exist, you know, coexist. And I think that as a parent, there's so much of that. It's like you want to create this stability and you want to have the consistency. But at the same time, you have to be ready to just be on your toes. and not always knowing what's going to be thrown at you. And I think there's something about performance that does that. It's like as much as you prepare, you go on stage and there's so many elements you're not in control of.

8:41And I think I was always drawn to that, that I'm prepared and I know that I've got a good foundation. But there's an excitement in not knowing what's going to be thrown at you, whether it's like the orchestra and the conductor doing their own thing and the orchestra might be faster or slower than you're used to, or the lights might, something might happen, or your partner might forget the steps. Like there's so many things that are thrown at you, but you've got this good foundation that I think is very similar to being a mom. But, you know, I think that so much of my like beginning years, like at American Ballet Theater, were kind of, there wasn't a lot of freedom in terms of creativity in my mind not that I was being told that and not until probably around the time that I started working with Prince that he gave he kind of all of us can't like I would like to say that it's not until I was working with Prince that but I did it would just be a lie I try to tell the truth so sorry keep going.

9:50Just have to note that, like, you need to like caveat that, you know? It was, yeah, such an interesting time that I never imagined would happen. Like, you know, that we would come together in any way, but there was something that he, he kind of like changed my perspective on in terms of, you know, what it means to just, to be confident and proud of being different and being unique. And, you know, I never really experienced improv. Like in classical ballet, that doesn't really exist. Yes, there can be moments of improvisation in terms of like, how am I going to adjust to these elements that are, that might not happen on a daily basis.

10:30But in terms of actually improvising in the choreography, that's not something you do in classical ballet. You're, you're performing hundreds of years old choreography that's been passed down and, you know, and you have to do it exactly how this ballerina did it and blah, blah, blah, blah. But with him, the first time I performed with him, I toured with him to France and he, I arrived the night before and, and I was like, what am I doing here? And he's like, oh, you're just, these are the songs you're going to perform to and you can just do whatever you want. And I was like, what? That's not how it works for me.

11:05Like I have choreography and, you know, and so I ended up going out there and literally just improvising. And he, whenever he came onto the stage, I would leave. But I went back to ABT with this like different understanding of what it means to be creative and what it means to be an artist. And I don't know, prepared me in so many ways, again, to have that, that freedom and to be able to like make adjustments and things on my toes. Yeah. I hadn't thought about it in such a crystallized way, but so much of parenting is improv. I mean, you know, because whatever hard moment you prepare for from a book or from Instagram or for someone's course, at the end of the day, like your kid is gonna throw you something different.

11:50You're reading about, okay, when your kid doesn't listen, but you're like, but my kid, no, he's listening. Like they're naked eating a popsicle at seven 30 in the morning. Like there's not really a book about that. And my other kid is screaming, you never pay attention to me. And I have the biggest meeting of my life at 9am. So like, that's not a chapter in anybody's book but I think just help me get back to that improv moment for you with Prince before you didn't just show up able to do that it felt new but there was some amount of prep even if it was more prescribed for years that that gave you enough to go do that so what what was your dancing life like before that like tell me a little bit more about that part Yeah.

12:35Well, when you're talking right now, I'm connecting it really to the beginning, beginning, beginning years of my training. Yeah. psychologist yeah so we get to go back um you know I think because I started at 13 years old and I was the oldest girl in my I mean I was starting out in a ballet class with like five and six year olds and I'm 13 because I hadn't I was ancient and totally grandma in there and um And I think that because I had such a late start that I was always improvising and trying to kind of fit in. And I was really good at I was a visual I am a visual learner and I could mimic what I was seeing like really easily.

13:25But didn't mean that it was always like sticking necessarily. Like I, you know, I think that because I was always just kind of like getting by in my mind, you know, I'd show up these places and I could like, I could, you know, audition and get a full scholarship and get into the highest level in this program. But in terms of having like real stamina and true strength that builds up over years, which is why people start training at such a young age because it becomes a part of your muscle memory. But I think because I had existed in that space for so much of my young dancing life and even going into American Ballet Theater, I only had trained in ballet for four years, which is like unheard of.

14:09Yeah. To start a professional career with that little bit of training. So I was still really improvising in those early stages of my professional career. Did you know that was an advantage then or did it feel intimidating at the time? Um... Neither. I don't know if I was intimidated. I was so used to surviving and being in survival mode for most of my life that it wasn't new to kind of be in that state it didn't feel uncomfortable it was just like oh I know how to be in this space and like um I I don't know it's like my upbringing prepared me so much for ballet ballet prepared me so much for motherhood all of these things it was like the perfect storm of, you know, of instability growing up and just having so much thrown at me that once I got into the professional ballet world, I was like, this is nothing.

15:01You know, the stage and the studio were really the first safe spaces I'd ever experienced in my life where I felt like no one could do anything to me. No one could, like I'm on the stage and I felt completely protected and free, which is like the opposite of how most people feel on a stage or in ballet class. I mean, a lot of people think about ballet and they think, you know, that this is like, I'm going to have this teacher in here that's like telling me it's going to be so strict and I'm going to feel so, you know, uptight. And I felt the opposite. I, my, my body could relax for the first time.

15:38I felt like I was being nurtured and like fed. And, you know, I had severe migraines up until like I started ballet. And I think it was like the stresses I was dealing with in my home life. And then I came into the studio and it was like my body could just release and relax and kind of take in all of this beauty, whether it be the music or the movement and the structure that literally was like, I was meant to be here and to do this. Wow. What's coming up for you when you talk about that? Like that was kind of the first time I felt safe. You know, I think just about from the moment I was two years old, I was born in Kansas City, Missouri.

16:18I was two and my mom picked up and divorced for the second time with my father and moved to Los Angeles. And that was like the beginning of just like chaos. different men in our lives. My mom married five times, just constantly moving, not knowing, by the time I was 13 years old, we were living in a motel where me and my five siblings were sleeping on a floor in one room, not really knowing if there's going to be food on the table, if there's going to be a roof over our heads, where we were going the next day. And so to be in a place where I knew what was going to happen every single day, literally to be in a studio where I'm in community, we're all doing the same thing.

17:05There's no hierarchy, I didn't feel, which is so crazy because there's so much hierarchy like in the ballet structure. But in the studio and in those, you know, being a student, I felt like I was one in this community and the teacher was there to like feed me. And I was, you know, being seen for like the potential and that there were actual goals and dreams. Like I didn't have any of that before. And so, yeah, going on stage, it was like, I can't see the audience. It's just black and darkness. And, you know, people can't say anything to me other than like cheers and bravo. and I can do, I can be in control.

17:50I can be in control of myself and my body and what I have to say.

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19:34What got you in that class? How did you go from your childhood to the studio? Like how'd you get there literally? So it was at the age of 12 that I, I don't know where this came from, but I just said, I want to audition for the dance team at my middle school. And my whole family was like, what are you thinking? This is the worst idea. You're so shy. You're so introverted. You don't want to be like in the spotlight. Why would you do this? And I was like, it, I just want to like this. I mean, movement was something I was always drawn to. and I felt like I could express myself in ways that I couldn't verbally.

20:14I mean, I was auditioning with girls who grew up dancing and were actually in formal training and dance classes and I was made captain and the drill team coach was like, wow, you've got a lot of talent and potential. I want to introduce you to someone who teaches ballet classes at the community center at the Boys and Girls Club and I was already a member and so I was introduced to Cindy Bradley who was teaching free ballet classes at public schools and in community centers and looking for more diverse students to give an opportunity to who wouldn't otherwise be introduced to it. And I took my first class on a basketball court and it was a little strange.

20:51She told me on that first day, I think you're a prodigy. I think this is something you could do professionally. And I was just like, what is this crazy lady talking about? Within a couple of months, I was in the studio. I moved in with Cindy and I ended up living with them for three years um it was a lot for my family it was a lot for my mom um you know I think it got to a point where she felt like I was being taken away from her that was a decision we both made I think it was a lot to see my such a huge shift in me and such a huge change in the person that I was um you know I Again, I'd never been in an environment where there was safety and stability and I was literally being fed like nutritious foods.

21:38And I started to like, I was malnourished. I was like changing and feeling confident. And ballet was bringing out so much in me that was hidden before. Tell me more. I mean I was I was like thinking critically about things in a way that I hadn't before I was just kind of like again existing and just trying to get by and in school it was like the scariest thing for a teacher to call on me and for me to read out loud and and I was performing on stages and I was like I had an opinion about things and was being asked questions and asked what I thought about things. Like my mom didn't have time for any of that.

22:23And so I think it was. You're saying I got the table with Sydney. Yeah. Like just questions were being asked. I mean, the most simple things. Yeah. Like what? How was your day? What did you do at school today? What do you think about that? What do you think about this ballet? Which role would you want to perform? How would you approach performing this role in the character? Like things were literally, I was just like this mute child living amongst my siblings. And there was none of that interaction. Like we were fending for ourselves if we would, you know, scrounge for coins in the couch and like eat cup of noodles.

23:02And we weren't eating at a table. It was just a completely different dynamic than I'd ever experienced. And I grew immensely in a very short amount of time. And I think that was really hard for my mom to see. First of all, thank you for just sharing all that. And then so early, Cindy really saw something in you. Yeah, immediately. I mean, she took my leg, she put it up to my ear, and she's like, you can hold it there, and you're strong, your muscles are strong, like the proportions of your body, like everything kind of was like exactly what you needed to be in ballet, except for your skin color, which she didn't tell me at the time, but would eventually become an issue.

23:42Yeah. I always think we communicate so much to our kids through our questions. Yeah. And it's not about more questions because I actually think parents listening here, right, probably tend to, in general, ask a lot of questions. But, you know, I think about moments in my own childhood where I had a lot of questions unlike you, but how did you do on this test? What did this person get? What did this person get? And that, I was like, oh. Yeah. Right? But what you're saying is, someone wondering what you thought about something, someone being interested in your day, someone asking you what part you'd want all comes from the assumption that you have interesting thoughts inside of you and stories from your day worth telling.

24:25Um, and it sounds like for both understandable reasons, but still things that impacted you, um, before living there, like that's just that, that mirror was never held up. You mentioned, but we didn't get into it yet. It wasn't just an up into the right path, kind of. You said, I had kind of the perfect constitution, the perfect body, and then you mentioned, oh, except for my skin color. So when did that part start to, I don't know, when did it become obvious to you? Oh, like the world is not taking me in in the same way, or is there a place for me? yeah it's so interesting because um I remember so my teacher she would again she was like pouring into me in every way possible and I remember um she read from um I don't remember what the book was it was one of the ballerinas that were uh trained under George Balanchine who was the founder of the New York City Ballet and he kind of created his own ideal of what a ballerina should look like.

25:29And that kind of like changed the trajectory of like ballerinas bodies in that time. It was more like geared towards like, oh, what do like the supermodels look like in this time, like in the sixties and in the set, like Twiggy. And anyways, he kind of coined like, this is what an ideal ballerina should look like. And he was like, you know, long legs and long feet and long arms and a tiny head and a long neck and skin the color of a freshly peeled apple. and my teacher told me all of those attributes except for the apple part and you know in my mind I'm like I belong here this is a space I I'm supposed to be in and so she always kind of she blocked a lot of things and she but she created this very safe environment where I felt like I deserve and I belong in this world and it wasn't until I would go off and you know into the real world and I joined American Ballet Theater and then I'm in a company of over 90 dancers and I'm the only black woman and I'm the only black woman for the first decade of my career and I think I was aware of it in some ways because I'd go away to summer programs and I would be the only black girl in my class but it wasn't something I ever felt like I was being excluded and and I was always being given full scholarships and told I was a prodigy and given opportunity to but once I got into a professional company, it was kind of like, yeah, you're all of those things and you, or you're good enough to get in.

26:56But like, we don't know if you're good enough to actually like be a part of this legacy and history in terms of like being a soloist or being a principal dancer. And I guess it was like in that time that I wasn't being given the opportunity to perform the classical works, which are like the epitome. Like you have to look a certain way, you know, to be a part of what they call the white ballets with Swan Lake and La Bayadere in the second act where you have fair skin and everyone looks the same and you're supposed to look otherworldly. And I was being asked to paint my skin a lighter color to fit in with the rest of the court of ballet.

27:35I mean, there was so much going on that was just like, this is wrong and this doesn't feel right. I no longer feel like this is the world I'm supposed to be a part of. You're being asked to paint your skin a lighter color. Yes. Take me to that. I mean, I remember specifically, I remember being a young member of the Court of Ballet and we were on tour in like Cleveland or Detroit or somewhere like that. I remember it being really cold and I'm doing, I think, the Ballet Giselle. And then, you know, I guess one of the makeup artists comes in with like a little container of pancake, which is what they used to, you know, the makeup they used for performing.

28:14and it was, I don't know, your color. And it's like, oh, just pass this around. Everyone has to put this on. And I'm like, oh no, this isn't, I look like I'm ashy. Like I need lotion. Like if I put this on and they're like, no, no, no. Everyone wears this color. Everyone has to wear this color. And I just remember feeling so invisible, but yet so visible and just like it like crushed my soul where it was just like, oh, I'm not supposed to be a part of this. And just having this, like, this battle within myself of like, whether or not this is something I should be doing. You know, I wasn't having that conversation immediately, like with my colleagues, but I was going home and I was like talking to my teacher, talking to, you know, I was very fortunate to have mentors in my life from a young age.

29:11And I think that definitely gave me a foundation of what like the importance of having mentors in my life that I can have those tough conversations with. And I think that's why I am where I am because I was prepared in so many ways like to have difficult conversations and advocate for myself with my artistic director, the artistic staff at pivotal moments in my career where I brought up things that people were uncomfortable talking about. They didn't want to address or they didn't want to change. And I was being prepared in ways where I could actually articulate myself and actually talk about it, not just come in and be over emotional or angry, which, you know, I shouldn't have to be, you know, completely prepared.