Is It True? If I Don’t Punish, I’m Permissive (with Myleik Teele)

0:00Okay, parents, quick check-in. If your brain feels like it's holding everyone's schedule, except your own, you're not doing it wrong. You're carrying a lot. I see this all the time. School emails, activities, chores, dinner plans, and somehow it all lives in one person's head. Usually, mom's. And that gets exhausting. That's why I love Skylight Calendar. It's a smart touchscreen calendar that takes everything swirling around in your brain, schedules, chores, meals, grocery lists, and put it in. That's it in one place where the whole family can actually see it and participate. It syncs with Google, Apple, Outlook, all of it.

0:38And you can color code each family member. So there's a lot less, wait, I didn't know in your house. Plus, with the free Skylight Companion app, you can add or update events, lists, and more on the go. And I appreciate this. If after 120 days, you're not 100 % happy, you can return it for a full refund. No questions asked. Right now, you can get$30 off a 15-inch Skylight calendar at myskylight.com slash Becky. That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash Becky. Okay, your kid is screaming in the middle of the grocery store. Nope, your kid is rolling around in the middle of a restaurant. Actually, no, sorry.

1:24Your kid is jumping in mud in their dress clothes after you said, please don't jump in the mud in your dress clothes. Whatever it is, no matter where you are, there is always one person who walks by a situation like this and gives you the look. And you know the look because the look has a voice. Even if you don't hear anything and the voice says, you're going to let them get away with that. And the voice then says to you, if I don't handle this firmly and harshly, I'm going to look permissive. I'm going to look like I let my kid walk all over me. I'm going to look like I am reinforcing bad behavior.

2:07I'm permissive. I'm a pushover. Now, I'm just going to put it on the table. I've had that thought myself many times. So if this sounds familiar to you, I don't have a camera into your brain. I just can hear my own brain. But here's the thing. Is punishment actually the opposite of permissiveness? Hmm. Today we're going to try something new. My friend, one of my favorite people to talk with about anything, Miley Teal, is back with me. And we're going to start myth-busting some of the stickiest parenting beliefs out there. And this one thought, that if I don't punish, I'm permissive, is something that I think a lot of us just hold as truth.

2:52It's kind of nonfiction. Maybe it's not true. Or maybe that thought needs a little updating. That's what we're going to talk about today. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm so glad you're here. This is a series we're calling, Is It True? In each of these types of episodes, we're going to take one parenting idea. That sounds obvious. You just kind of move past it. Something we've said or believed or just held as the truth. And we're just going to get curious about it. We're going to also ask, is this idea helpful in the way we want to show up? So, my league, when you hear, if you don't punish, you're permissive, what does that stir up in you?

3:42I feel like so many people, if you see a kid, whatever the action is, a good parent does something. A good parent has an equal or greater reaction. Every action has an equal opposite reaction. So it's like, if you do this, oh, you broke that, you hit that. Let me take it up a notch. And there's a publicness of this, but I think this thought plays out in private. Oh, it does. I really think it's one of the oldest, deepest beliefs. And maybe it's so old because it's literally old from generations. Right. I can't let them get away with it, which I think is related. Letting someone get away with something means I'm not punishing it.

4:30Right. Is that it feels like those are almost the same. Right. How will they get better if you don't punish it? How will they learn? then they think I think it's okay it's okay so okay so your kid does something in front of you right either you say oh stop jumping on the couch and they keep jumping on the couch or they just say something really rude to you or they don't listen right and if you don't punish is it that you feel permissive or like what's the language that really you think parents are like struggling with about what this all means about them. I know in that moment, I'm probably thinking, oh, you think I'm weak?

5:11You think you can get over on me? You think that you're in charge? You know, you think you're the boss? You think you're the boss? You do whatever you want to do around here. And so if I don't let you know who's in charge at all times, yeah, you know, I'm not doing my job. Look, first of all, I think you're right. So thank you for naming that. And I just picture parents being like, yep, that is, yep, that's it. Because it's really like deep. Like if you think about that, like what, so it's, because this can happen. Like our kid can be two. They can be six. They can be 10, but they can be two. Yeah.

5:53And my kid does something I say not to do. I'm like, oh, you think you're the boss of me? Like, I don't maybe say that, but that, oh, you think, yeah, like you're saying I'm weak. Yeah, you can do whatever you want around here. You just get up. Oh, you're not wearing that. You're throwing that away. You're not eating that. Wait, can I ask you a question? I never thought about this. Yeah. Do you think when you're sleeping and it's 2 a.m. with your four-month-old and they're screaming for you, right? Right. Do you think parents then are like, oh, you think you're the boss of me? Or no, not then?

6:23No. Let's walk through that. I've never thought about that. When does it change? So why not at four months? But I think at that age, we really do believe that they are helpless. But I think that the more that they are able to do and, you know, the more we start shifting, we're changing color cups. Now we're changing meals. We're doing all of these things that they want us to do. And then when we ask them to do something and they don't do it, it's like I've been doing this all day. yeah putting your shoes on changing your pants and now I ask you to do one simple thing and you can't do it so who's in charge here me or you so I just think that that's interesting to track like it's true when my baby cried in the middle of the night right I didn't or I took them out in an outfit and they spit up on it I'm definitely not like oh you think you're the boss of me right like oh you think we're just going home because of you know like I had a plan to go out we don't really think that with our nine-month-old.

7:21We don't. But at some point, it does start to happen. Yeah. And it's just, it's not kind of nonstop. Yeah, it is. But you know what's interesting? It's nonstop because we see the world through whatever glasses we're wearing. Right. And maybe you're saying at a certain age, never thought about it this way, one of the sets of glasses I don't even think we realize are on all the time is just power. Yes. Who has power? Right. I was going to ask you that because I'm like, I'm noticing the glasses and I'm like, at some point they come on and they never come off. Right. Yeah, I'm always seeing it that way.

7:58Is it power dynamics? Are you evaluating your own strength and worth? Yes. Through your toddler's behavior? Whether or not they're doing what I say sometimes. Yes, yes, yes, it is true. I am. Is that not a good equation? Yeah, yeah, I am doing that. Even if I don't want to be doing it, I'm doing it. Yeah. Why? A lot of us, if we think back in our earliest years, a lot of dynamics were around power. Power, fear. Yeah. Right? I kind of know my parents are more powerful. There's a lot of fear. So I'm going to do this thing short term until I'm out of their house and they lord things over us. And if you don't do this, then you don't get to do this.

8:40They're all like power equations. Yeah. And so I do think that lives deep in our bones way before we became a parent. It was just there's probably of the unwritten models of parenting had a lot to do, I think, with power and fear. Yeah. Right. And outside of the home, too. I think about school, wherever you go, school, camp, you know, it was always that sort of deal. And so here's this moment. Let's just say it is my toddler start there. and won't put on their shoes. And even if it's my seven-year-old, because I think some people say, but my seven-year-old should know better, right? I mean, we all should know better with things, but let's say there's a situation and I think the parent starts thinking, I can't put up with this.

9:24Also, they can't think this is okay. They can't feel like they run this house. I have to punish them. I have a question for you. I don't know the right answer to this question either. What is punishment? Like maybe what's an example of it and what do we, even if it doesn't make sense, What do we think it does in terms of teaching and effectiveness? You know, it's I want you to know that I didn't like what you did. Uh-huh. I don't want it to happen again. And because you did that, I need to do something to you, take something from you. Something needs to happen to you so that you know not to do that again and that I don't like it.

10:03Okay. So actually, I want to break that down. Step one, I need you to know that I don't approve of this behavior. Step one. Okay. So punishment is a way of telling your kid that. Okay. We're going to think if there's alternatives for each of these needs. Okay. I get as a parent if my kid is doing something that I don't think is okay. I actually understand. I kind of want them to know that I don't think it's okay. Totally reasonable. Whether that has to come out in punishment, we can think about. But punishment says that. Not okay. Number two, punishment kind of says, I don't want you to do this again.

10:37Maybe number three brings it together. That maybe the best way, tell me this is true, the best way of telling you I don't approve and trying to have something not happen again is to make you feel bad or to make you feel small or to deliver some type of emotional, physical pain. Yeah. Right. Is that? That was my third of something has to happen to you. Something has to happen to you. Yes. Do you think there is that equal opposite thing where I'm upset? Yes. So you have to be. You need to feel some of this in some way. I can't be the one watching you behave in this way. And my body feels uncomfortable.

11:20Right. Like, is there an indignance there? I mean, your body has to feel uncomfortable. But I mean, this is how I grew up. My mom's like, oh, you embarrass me. This would, before we go into a store. Yeah. You embarrass me and I'm going to embarrass you. And that sort of whatever I feel, you feel. Did she? Yes. Yes, she did. But or I knew, you know, it's like I was like, I knew that if I made her uncomfortable, if I embarrassed her, she was going to ensure that I was also embarrassed. Yeah. So this is old beyond the punishment part. even though it's part of the punishment is if I feel bad as a parent from a situation, you need to feel that way.

12:07And I just want to say something because my mind's going this direction. So I don't know if anyone listening is. I don't know why I picture someone thinking maybe I'm thinking. Oh, the days when children listen to parents in stores. Like a little bizarre, like a little nostalgia. Like, oh, the days where I couldn't theory say to my kid, if you do this, here's what's going to happen. And they were like a little bit nervous enough to modify their behavior. Because I do think there's a little bit of wistfulness for the impact. Maybe not the tactics, but the impact. For sure. Right? Yeah. It worked sometimes.

12:44It worked sometimes. Yeah. And I know you and I have talked about other consequences, long term, short term. When I think about being a black parent and I think about if there's no punishment. Yes. If there's no clear consequence, how will my kid know that there are consequences in the world? okay you are five today and I call your name and you don't turn around or you roll your eyes or you hiss and you're out in the real world and you get pulled over yeah and you do any one of those things there is a great chance that you will be punished harshly or you may not be alive and the layer I think that you're not saying, but it's implied.

13:39And that is different for you than a white child. Completely. Yes, that is completely real. And so when I, you know, if when I'm with my kids, that is something that people say is that that is something white kids can do. That is something white kids can do and black kids can't do that. Like almost like we don't have the time. You know what I mean? It's like, I have to speed this up because the world is not safe. and you, Becky, you can take seven years practicing, but I don't feel like I have that much time. And so I have to show my kid, at least give them an idea of what the consequences might feel like so that maybe they won't want to do any of those things out in the world that could harm them.

14:30And what goes on in your body as you say all those words? I'm sure you're thinking about your kids. You know, it's awful because I can think about why my parents parented the way that they did. And I can know that it was in some ways when we talk about, you know, my number one job is to keep my child safe. I think they really believe that that's what they were doing. And I feel like there are a lot of Black parents that believe that they are keeping their kids safe that way. Like if my kid is unfairly singled out on the street. Yes. Pulled over, whatever it is. Yes. They better know how to keep their body safe and calm and not do anything that could be interpreted.

15:19Or they're in a group, you know, you're in a group of white kids. Uh-huh. You can't do what those kids can do. You know, if you're in a group of white kids and you do the exact same thing, there is a chance that you will be punished in a way that those other kids won't. And one of the things I think you and I, I think, agree on, what if the best chance of my kid learning how to stay calm in the face of authority isn't punishing? What if that only leads them to lock away their anger and rage and that makes it more likely it comes out when they're teens and they aren't scared of adults anymore because they're not small?

16:06Like, do you feel like that beyond feeling better to you? Are you like, no, no, no. Part of it is I actually think that is. No, I a thousand percent. I see it now. He's at a point where he can start to tell you when something's going to bother him. It's like he can almost pin down what's going to what sends him on a tear. And so he may not even do it. And so I am like, oh, my goodness, he is starting to learn the ways to stay safe. And even one of his teachers said, no one can tell you how they're feeling better than he can. Wow. And to me, I think that is what will keep him safe. But I think the hardest part, and I talk to you about this all the time, is that if I want my child who will become an adult to understand sort of like authority and to just stay calm in the moment, they have to be able to practice this with me.

17:13Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the hardest part of like, they have to be able to yell and like, like you said, it is a practice that they're not going to get the first time. Yeah. So sometimes, you know, it's like this is a long game. This is a long game. And I think that, OK, I'm going to stay calm. They're going to have a moment and I'm going to have to do that many times until they essentially co-regulate. But I think that's the part that's the hardest is that it's hard to believe that this could, quote unquote, work. Well, it really sounds, it does sound like you're coaching. You're trying to coach him.

17:58You're trying to coach him. What would you need? What will eventually help you change your behavior? What's really going on? And if I want to be your coach in that, I kind of have to be on your team. Right. And we have to have a strong enough relationship that you're willing to be influenced by me even as you get older. Right. Right? Yeah. I mean, I think about that a lot. Now, I have a 14-year-old, and I think you still want to have influence on your kid as they get older, almost especially. You're going to have it in smaller doses, but the stakes get higher. Right. Right? And connection is always the portal.

18:39The influence, like staying connected to someone. If you're not connected to someone when you're 14, when your kid is 14, they have this realization. I'm bigger than you. I really don't care about your timeouts. Like those things, it doesn't make sense. When I'm out and I don't come home, if all you have is words and threats and then I just get to go to school again tomorrow, like there's nothing. They kind of can call us on our bluff. But connection, I think that is the place that I think it's tough because I feel like I was taught that if my kid does something bad, I go away from them. If my kid does something bad, we disconnect.

19:20I pull away my love as a punishment. Yes. Yes, that is a punishment. That is a punishment. You know, I'm not talking or I'm, you know, you can tell that I'm no longer dealing with you. And I think that is something that to go toward our kids when they do something we don't like. Yes. That we can still stay connected to the good kid underneath. This kind of brings it all together. I can tell my kid that behavior wasn't okay. Right. I can still see the good kid underneath. I'm not so much connecting to the bad behavior as much as I'm staying connected to my good kid who's struggling. Right. And then I can act like a coach to have this behavior change.

20:01I have to figure out, well, what's really going on? And then, yeah, kind of help them change through skills, not just probably power and fear. Right. And giving it time.

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23:35Is there another way, maybe that you've even played around your kids, of letting your kids know that you do not approve of their behavior that doesn't involve punishment? Yes. So how, just because I actually think for a lot of people, are there other options? There, there are. I told you when I met you, I never wanted to like, I certainly never wanted to hit my kids and I just never felt like punishing worked because I'd been punished and I'm just like I don't know that this works but I feel like I can let my kids know this is not okay and I don't necessarily need to make them feel like I feel even if I am embarrassed you know it's like I have had my kid do things that were embarrassing or were hard.

24:29And I did not feel the need to like send him to his room to make him feel worse or take something from him. So, I mean, what have I done? What have I done? You know, I might say, I'm trying to think of a specific example. But you just said it. And actually, I think there's a version that's simple that you said, but you didn't even realize is you can tell your kid that's not okay. Yeah. That's not okay with me. Right. I mean, I could go so far, permission any parent to say, I do not approve of this behavior. Like you can make it crystal clear with your language. Right. But you know, but let's just be honest.

25:05Sometimes that does not feel like enough. Well, I thought you were going to say something else. It doesn't feel as good. No. There's something. No, it doesn't. Can we just let ourselves say, There is something so cathartic about no dessert for a week. And you say it. And for the split second, it feels good. It does. It really does. You're like, I was so frustrated. And I get to, and I think this is what it is. I get to vomit all of my frustration onto my child. Yes. That's what it is. It's vomiting. Right. Right. Like this is what either this is what happened to me or this what this is what would happen to me.

25:43Yes. Like if if I said to my mom, if I gave an order of what I wanted and then she brought it back and I said, oh, I don't want that anymore. What? And my kids do that all the time. I didn't say I don't want that. Mom, you know, I don't want that. Why would you order that? You said that. this is what happens when you have children like it is so crazy the gaslighting that happens i just want to validate okay please i would like pasta and chicken and you're like sure reasonable and you literally go to your child here is pasta and chicken and they go i don't like pasta and chicken and there are times when i've heard myself say things like it's like i need my kid to know that Like, I'm not crazy.

26:31There's that. Like, I need to be harsh to prove to my five-year-old that he did say pasta and chicken. Yes. Because if he gets so upset, you said it. And if you don't tell me you said it right now, I am going to fill in the blank with something that I have at most a 15 % chance of following through on. Right. Let's be clear. There are so many of us, I think especially women, who are taught to look elsewhere to learn our internal reality. Yeah. Am I allowed to feel upset about this? Is this a big deal? Right. And so if you're thinking, oh, my God, that's so pathetic. That's kind of right. I on some level do have this wish my kid will say, you're right, mom.

27:09I did say that. Mm hmm. That's when I can have more compassion rather than judgment for myself, because probably even before I became a mom. I was encouraged to kind of always look outside for validation. And so, sure, that pattern comes up now and I can start to shift it now. But I just I hate the idea of a parent really blaming themselves for that. Like, that's probably historical. Right. Right. Right. This part is always confusing. Like, I guess the theory is if they get so upset after a bad behavior, the next time they're in that situation, they're going to think about, wait, the last time I did this, I got punished.

27:50Like, that's where always a little bit breaks down for me. Like, wait a second. The last time I hit my sister, I didn't get dessert. So I am going to pause right now and not hit my sister. Like I still I feel like we're focusing punishment is on the after behavior. Yes. And it's hard for me to really make sense of. And then I think my kid before the behavior is going to access the thing that happened last time after the behavior. Like but I think that's we kind of think it works like that. That's exactly how we think it works. I mean, as you were explaining that and I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah, I guess I guess that doesn't make sense.