Parenting Is Leadership with Simon Sinek

0:00Here's something I want to come out and say directly. Parenting is a form of leadership. Leadership, that term holds a lot of weight. Leaders, leadership, learning the skills to be a great leader. If you're a parent and you're listening to this, I want to say to you directly, you are the leader. You are the CEO of one of the most important organizations in the world. And without a doubt, the most important organization in your world. Your family home. And so for today's episode, you can see I'm straightening myself up in my chair because I'm so excited. I will be talking to one of my favorite leadership experts, Simon Sinek.

0:39Simon has such a unique perspective on leadership. He is both putting out ideas where leaders are so strong and so human. They can embody their authority and they also see the value of connecting to and listening to other people. I love learning from him. And I'm so excited for you to hear a conversation about leadership and his ideas and how they all directly connect to what we're all doing every day with our kids. Before we jump in, I just want you to give yourself something. I want you to tell yourself right now. I'm a leader. Watch for self-criticism. Oh, that's not true. I'm just a dad. I'm just a mom.

1:20Put that on the shelf. We can't get rid of it, but we can put it to the side. And I want you to try on the idea that you are a very important leader. That's how I see you. And that's how I want you to take in this conversation. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. I feel like on the surface, all the things you do around leadership and organizations, things I do, parenting, families can feel so different. But I feel like whenever we talk, we often feel like we're actually talking about the same thing. And maybe the one one of the ways we're representing that is both wearing seafoam green for this conversation, showing all the ways we're similar.

2:04Very solidarity. Exactly. I'm glad we planned that out. But I want to start with your area. And I feel like so much of what we'll talk about will be leadership, parenting. I have a feeling so many themes are kind of exactly identical. But given you've worked with so many leaders, so many CEOs and so many orgs, I guess I'd love to start with. You probably listen to so many things where there's so many different things on the surface, but my guess is you hear a lot of similar patterns. What are the themes that kind of come up most often when you dive into leadership? So there's patterns that are consistent all the time, every time.

2:44And there are patterns that happen based on what's going on in the world. Okay. You know, there was a period where literally every question was about millennials, because millennials apparently, when they were coming up through the ranks, were unleadable, you know. And now it's funny because the millennials and leadership are complaining about the next generation. But so, you know, those things sort of come and go depending on the times. But the consistent things are, as you would expect, it's personalities, it's feedback, it's I don't feel heard, it's nobody cares about me. It's I want I want to feel a sense of purpose and belonging, you know, at work.

3:22I don't have that. If you're in a leadership position, it's disengagement. It's it's obviously people asking questions about performance. So those those things are fairly common. Some of the trickiest things that come up over and over. Just give me one. I want to dive into like one story, one example that in your mind you hear a lot of versions of around leadership. So if you're rank and file, it's my boss doesn't get it. I get that so often. My boss doesn't get it. And what they're talking about is feeling a part of an organization where leadership is driven by numbers, by quarterly results, where all the incentive structures are based on individual performance.

4:07Um, people are compensated based on the price of the stock price. And what ends up happening is it leaves the people who have to come to work every day feeling like there's simply a number, um, that, that human beings who are running the organization don't even view them as fellow human beings in the organization. That is pervasive, absolutely pervasive. So when you say these words like they don't get it i hear a little bit like they don't see me i they don't i'm not a person in an organization as much as seen as a number for output is that is that similar basically what they're saying is they don't get the stuff that i'm that i'm talking about and writing about you know that and and you know it's embarrassing that i have a career i talk about trust and and uh and cooperation there should be no demand for my work um and yet there is demand for the the work because people want to come to work and feel like they matter.

5:05People want to come to work and feel like somebody sees them as a, as a, as a, as a human being. There's some funny data and I, and I get the exact numbers wrong, but you'll get the idea where, um, the average number of people who are disengaged at work is something like 70 or 80%, something, something crazy. Right. Um, and if somebody gets yelled at for something they did wrong, disengagement goes to something like 40 or 50%. And if somebody gives you one compliment that tells you how great you are or something that you did well, disengagement goes to something like 20%. The point being, the point being that I think that the thing that I love about that is that getting yelled at actually makes you more engaged than being ignored because at least somebody knows that I'm here, right?

5:48At least somebody knows that I'm doing something. And I find that absolutely hilarious. You know what's interesting, Simon, to connect this to parenting? I don't have data to to spit back at you, but I have stories of, and a lot of similar stories of someone saying, think back on my childhood. And I think back about my soccer games and my football games. My, my dad, my mom never showed up. And I'm not saying I want my friends, parents who basically were yelling at them the whole time, but I would rather that than my parents who didn't show up because at least it was a form of caring. I don't know if that resonates.

6:31That's really similar. Now we all want some other version, which was some version of like, I love watching you play and maybe later have some feedback if relevant. Right. But connection, being present, showing in any way that you're invested in someone enough to engage with them and emote with them and talk to them and respond to them in leadership and parenting seems to be really important. Well, I mean, you remember the TV show, The Osbournes, right? This semi-functional, semi-dysfunctional family of, you know, of Ozzy Osbourne and Sharon Osbourne and the kids. And I remember at the time when it was really popular, people were shocked and saying, oh my God, this is terrible that we just see this family yelling at each other the whole time.

7:11And folks like you and parenting experts said, no, no, no, no. They're communicating, they're engaged, they clearly love each other, they clearly care about each other. And that is actually quite good. And they're a very close and tight knit family because they're in it, as opposed to everybody just going to their rooms separately and ignoring each other and eating separately and doing everything separately. This is this is the better model. And I remember reading articles about that. This was the better model. You know, I often think with kids, but it is interesting to think about in the workplace.

7:39I hadn't made that extension. So you're expanding, expanding my brain where especially little kids that we think about, do I matter as a question? But I believe there's something so much deeper and existential happening for kids that I wonder if it happens at work too. Like being, do I impact the world? Does anybody see me, right? Being a human is very weird, especially with our feelings. Like is someone responding to me? And I do think little kids, especially when they get upset, when they have feelings, which are so confusing, I tell older kids this too, feelings don't have a marker. Pain isn't great.

8:15But when you skin your knee and you're bleeding, there's something useful about that. You're like, that's real. I see the blood, right? If you're sick, and your doctor says, Oh, you have the flu. Oh, there's a marker. It's real. The way we go about life with our feelings and our ideas are so confusing, because there's no blood test, there's no blood and pain. And so much of what we have is how someone responds to us. So when a parent says, you know, some version of look, I'm putting off the TV, there's no more TV. And you know me, I'm going to hold that boundary. But when I do say to my kid, I get you're upset.

8:47I don't like people making decisions for me either. I honestly don't love ending screen time either. And I agree watching another show is more fun than cleaning up. You have every right to be upset. I feel like I'm kind of saying even more than you matter. I'm saying like all the things going on for you are real. You are real. And I think what you're saying at work is that is so important for people to feel every day. Knowing that we matter, I think, is a huge part. We want to know that we matter in the world. We want to know that our work matters in the world. And this is where organizations that are truly purpose-driven or vision-driven, you can feel like I'm contributing something bigger than myself.

9:27I mean, this is the same reason people find connection in volunteer work or religion, which is I feel like I'm a small player in something that really, really matters. It's it's the and when you talk about scraping the knee, where my head goes in those in that is is about accountability. Right. Which is you can't gaslight someone because of their scraped knee. Yes. Right. But when somebody has a feeling, which is an which is an intangible thing. and I share accountability in the creation of this wound because I can't see it and it's not diagnosed and there's no, and I can't take a temperature and say, look, you said that.

10:14And now look what happened to my knee, right? That it's easy to invalidate people's feelings because I, it's hard. I feel like, I feel like an ass. I feel, I feel bad. So to alleviate my own stress, I'll invalidate your feelings. Okay. We're going to play a game with this. You're going to give me a work example where that happens and then a version where it doesn't happen. And I'm going to kind of translate that into the parenting world because this is so important at work and in leadership. So where might that happen? Someone's having a feeling, you know, it's not visible. There's no blood tests for it, but it feels real for them.

10:47So it happens every day in every meeting. Yep. Right. When somebody expresses concern about a decision. Great. Right. And somebody will say, instead of saying, tell me more, what's your concern? The knee jerk reaction is, I think you're wrong, Bob. You know, and that's it. The discussion is over. And the person actually wasn't looking to be right. they were looking to getting great and be involved in the conversation. And these and I love what you're pointing to is a moment that a part of our brain can be like, that's a tiny moment. But but it's the accumulation of these tiny moments that really affect how people feel and then also how productive you can be, the culture, all of that.

11:32So this idea of Bob speaks up and is like, I don't know about this decision. And I think what you're saying is more than anything, I do believe as humans, we are looking to be believed, which doesn't mean we need to make a decision based on someone believing us. Those two things get conflated all the time. If as a manager, I say to Bob, whoa, you're concerned about this. Tell me more about that. Let me hear. That doesn't mean I have to do what Bob says. A lot of time leaders have many more, much more information. They have a more long-term vision, right? And so emotional validation for other people doesn't mean allowing those people's feelings to dictate your decisions.

12:11Those are totally separate. Right. And I think it's the exact same with a kid. I'll just go back to the TV example. Oh, you don't want to turn off the TV. Right. Oh, what were you? Oh, you were thinking about watching two episodes. I didn't make it clear. It was just one. I get why you're upset. And people are surprised that as I'm saying that I'm still shutting off the TV. Like those are separate things, but it makes all the difference. Well, I think it also plays into sort of right and wrong me versus you versus we're a team with a common goal, you know, and when when when somebody speaks up to question a decision, you know, hopefully their intentions are in the right place, you know, that they're trying to say, I care about this company.

12:53I care about the direction. I care about the decisions we make. And I'm going to give a point of view with the hope that it's considered. And when that is discounted and not heard, it's creating me versus you, right versus wrong, and sometimes playing up the hierarchy. I'll give you an example that we've embraced in our organization that has been essential to us functioning better as a team and getting rid of this right and wrong. So in the business world, if somebody works really hard, let's say on their PowerPoint, They spend two weeks working really hard on their PowerPoint and they give the presentation.

13:26And at the end of the presentation, the response, the right at the end, they usually go, pretty good, right? Like validate all my effort, right? Please. That's pretty normal. I did some work with the Air Force and same thing. Somebody spends two weeks working on their PowerPoint. They come into the room, they give their presentation. and at the end of the presentation, they go, Spears? Spears? They don't ask for validation about how good my work is. They ask the room to offer Spears, poke holes in my work so that my work can be better. And it is a cultural thing. And so everyone is expected to help each other, make each other's work better because we're all in this together.

14:09And this idea of Spears is so valuable because it does two things. One, it communicates this is a team effort. And two, Two, it gets people comfortable getting feedback that may be perceived as negative. But really, it's about a point of view that I think I can help make your work better. It's love. It's love. It sounds like there's two things. Number one, more than anything else, we're all on team company. We're all on team Air Force. We're all on team company. Our job is to help make the company better. And part of that is my own growth. And so there's no way I can grow without feedback, right?

14:46So question, realistically, what do you notice gets in people's way of that actually happening in reality? We know people can feel so deflated by feedback, can feel so, right, unmotivated, or maybe they feel like it's a character attack. You've worked with so many people. What have you learned actually helps people take feedback as a way to grow instead of seeing it as an attack? so there's two there's two there's two answers that come to mind one is um and i'll tell you a story so um i had somebody who worked with me who i wanted to give some feedback to and it never went well and i would try different ways and it just never went well and and the problem with feedback is we tend to give feedback the way we like to receive it so i like it blunt and to the point and so i tend to give it blunt and to the point and it doesn't always go well and i would try and temper.

15:43And it just, and we had more than one instance where it ended up as a shouting match. Right. And it took us an hour just to like, get back to baseline, forget about the feedback. Right. And at some point frustrated, I said, I got to give you feedback. This can't keep happening. This is not fun for either of us. Help me here. I'm stuck. And she said, I just need you to prepare me. That's all. You just start telling me things. And so I just need you to say, can I give you feedback now? And then let me say yes. Or let me say, can we schedule it for an hour from now so I can prepare myself? And so now by me asking permission to give feedback, can I give you some feedback?

16:30It sets the other person up that we are jointly into this. There's joint accountability in what's about to happen. From that, I simply, and so simply learning what she needed, I could adjust my style very simply and she could take harsher feedback than almost anybody in the company if, if I set it up in the way that she needed it set up. And so what I've learned since that is asking permission is a fantastic way to do pretty much everything, especially feedback, and people know what they want and people know what they need. You know? So, for example, if somebody says, can I talk to you? I'm struggling.

17:09I can say, do you want me to hold space? Do you want me to listen? Or do you want me to offer a point of view? And people can say, no, I want your opinion. As opposed to trying to fix something where somebody just needs you to feel heard. And I've had this experience as well, where I called somebody up and I was having a bad time of it. And I started sort of letting it out. And my friend starts fixing everything. and I could interrupt and say, hey, thank you. I need, please, I don't want you to fix anything. I just need you to, I just need you to listen to me right now. And the friend could adjust.

17:39And so we can tell people what they need, what we need. We can ask people what we need and we can give each other the feedback even in the moment. And it works to adjust. And so, so, so there's two things. One is as somebody who's a feedback giver, you have to adjust and learn different styles to meet the needs of others. And you don't have to guess. You can ask somebody, how do you like to receive feedback? What do you want? How do I make this go well so that you can hear the stuff that I want to tell you in the way that you want to hear it? And then adjust. It's that simple. And to make the leap to parents, you know, I think one of the things you're doing when you say permission to give feedback or you're kind of contracting, you're contracting for the moment, right?

18:22Simon, I'm like you, I move really quickly. I love feedback at all moments, But my speed, I know, can feel really jarring to someone. They're like, I thought you were about to tell me about your weekend. And all of a sudden, it's like that my nervous system wasn't prepared. So in addition to respecting someone's own process, I do think in the moment you're shoring up the relationship in a micro way. You're kind of saying, are we on the same page? And I do think the same thing is true for parents. Right. And sports come to mind because it's been such a topic for so many families where probably after your kid plays a 60 minute basketball game.

18:54and you've been watching on the sideline, they're exhausted. I don't think a kid wants to hear about their layups or their passing or their decisions when, you know, the game was on the line at all. Right. Just like if I don't know, no one thinks I'm a basketball player. That doesn't sound realistic. I'm barely five one. But let's say that was part of my life. And I did that. The last thing I want is my husband to be like, hey, Becky, I have notes for you. No, thank you. Right. The other thing I want to say just directly so parents can make the bridge is so many times and our kids are upset. I was the only one not invited to this birthday party.

19:27Oh, I'm having this situation with my friend on the playground. I think what happens is we really want to be useful as parents. We really do. And I think we assume the best way to be useful is to give advice. It probably is the least effective way to be useful, but we can hold it as an option. And saying to a kid, even a young kid, hey, before I say anything, first of all, thank you for telling me this. Do you want a hug? Do you want me to say nothing? Do you want to think about what to do next time? And again, asking a kid that at a young age, kids will often tell you, oh, I just need to get this out of my system or yeah, I just kind of want to hug.

20:08And so I love what you're saying, Simon, even for parents is that you don't have to guess like you can also ask. Yeah. I mean, people people kind of know what they need in the moment and they can change their minds, too, which is and it's and it makes for an easier flow. I mean, my rule is you meet emotion with emotion, you meet facts with facts, never bring bring facts to an emotional gunfight. And my favorite example is I went to see a friend's performance. And it was easily the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. And I wish I could have walked out because I would have done it twice if I could have.

20:43And And it was awful. And at the end of the show, I'm in the lobby with the friends and family, you know, and my friend comes out still in makeup and costume, all jacked up on adrenaline from coming off the stage. She comes running up to me with a big smile on her face. And she says, what'd you think? Now she knows me to be an honest broker. But the problem is, is like, I believe in being honest and I believe in being honest all the time, but I can't bring facts to this emotional state. She's jacked up on adrenaline and still full of it. Now is not the time or the place. And so I said, it was so amazing to see you on the stage.

21:25True. I've never seen you do your thing before. True. I'm so glad I came to see you. All true. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And she moves on, right? Three days later, I'm on the phone with her. And I said, by the way, did you want me to tell you what I thought of the performance. And she goes, actually, I do want to know what you thought. I said, okay, the lighting sucked, the acting sucked, the sucked. And let me tell you why they sucked. And we had a rational conversation and we talked about it and it was perfectly fine. And she really wanted that input. But the point is, I had a rational conversation in a rational setting, but you cannot have a rational conversation in an emotional setting.

22:04And I know this is true in your world. I mean, like even in my relationship, you know, I said to my girlfriend, I said, you know, hey, babe, I got to talk to you. You did something this week that made me feel this way. And you did it six times, even when I asked you to stop. And she says to me, well, I actually did it four times. And I said, it doesn't matter how many times you did it. And she said, well, if you're going to complain to me about something, get your facts right. right and the answer is no no the facts don't matter what matters is the feelings and please can you meet meet feelings with feelings meet facts with facts and for somebody who's the the the the giver or the receiver of the feedback to be able to evaluate you know is this emotional or is this is this rational and and my rule is anything to do with ideas or money is always emotional every time emotions ideas because all ideas are emotional because we they're my ideas right and so and so email and things like that are a terrible medium for emotional feedback because it's a rational medium so you know pick an emotional medium which is pick up the phone walk into somebody's office like hey do you have a minute can i can i just respond to your idea that you emailed me.

23:28But because we don't know how somebody reads something when they're in an emotional state. And so this idea of matching the environment I found to be essential and invaluable in any kind of feedback mechanism.

23:53I love the way you do this often. I feel like it takes a tremendous command of something to use the most simple language. So thank you for a perfect example of that. Meet emotion with emotion and facts with facts. So a couple of things I want to say on a lot of these I've learned only the hard way. I think that's the only way we learn things for me. I only learn things the hard way. Number one, people often think emotions are irrational and there's a morality judgment to it. Like it is superior to be rational and logical than to be in your emotion. And something I think is important to consider is like.

24:29Spanish isn't ill Mandarin, it's just not Mandarin, like they're two different languages, there's no moral superiority. And I think for anyone listening who can be honest, like we do sometimes place this moral superiority to rational mind and logic. But being in your emotion is just a different source of information. So I think the idea of meeting emotion, emotion and logic with logic is such a beautiful way of saying, no, the goal isn't to get someone emotional to be not emotional and be rational. It's just a completely different language. And I think to be successful in adulthood, we simply need both.

25:10You need Spanish and Mandarin. You need emotion and logic. The other thing I want to jump on with you, though, meet emotion, emotion, and logic with logic, whether it's at work or at home. I hear the parent who's saying, OK, my kid's upset about not being invited somewhere or my employee's upset about not getting a promotion when their colleague did. OK, they're having emotions. I don't know how to meet emotion with emotion. Like in my house, emotion was dangerous. It was shut down. I feel like there was this superiority of logic. Emotions were seen as bad and weak. So I'm curious how I'm sure you see that all the time.

25:44What's your take on that? How do you deal with that? I mean, what you're talking about is the journey of of becoming a leader, you know, and and, you know, I make this comparison all the time, which is the choice to become a parent. Is a lifestyle decision. Having a kid takes 15, 20 minutes, you know, on a good day. Max. Max. But raising a kid, that is a lifestyle decision. You can only travel during holidays. You're going to lose sleep. You get to feed yourself second. You get to spend all your money on somebody who's ungrateful. That's the decision that you've made to live in a completely different lifestyle.

26:26The choice to become a leader is the same thing. It's a lifestyle decision. You don't stop being a parent when you go to work. when you leave the house. Well, you don't stop being a leader when you come home and leave the office. Like leadership, this is why people often describe leadership as a lonely position, right? And the choice to become a leader is a lifestyle decision. And anybody who chooses the lifestyle of a leader elect, like a parent, to go on the journey of education. You read books, you read articles, you talk to your friends, you talk to people who are in similar situations, you talk to your own parents, you talk to your own leaders, you talk to your old boss.