In short
How to respond to kids saying “no” without escalating, using FBI hostage-negotiation tools: mirroring, labeling, “how/what” questions instead of “why,” curiosity, and staying connected during the first 5 seconds after refusal. Also includes timing (plan in calm moments), conditioning (tantrums get rewarded), and repair (apologize after snapping).
Guest backgrounds
Chris Voss spent decades as an FBI hostage negotiator; his approach centers on staying steady under pressure and using communication to unlock collaboration. Dr. Becky is the host of “Good Inside” and frames the advice for parents.
Key claims
When people feel cornered, lecturing/screaming/threats don’t make them reasonable. Saying “no” gives autonomy and safety. Empathy is understanding the other side, not agreeing. “Why” questions often sound accusatory; “what” and “how” prompt thinking. Mirroring (repeat 1–3 words with the right inflection) signals listening; silence matters for feelings to settle. Curiosity is not approval.
Notable examples
Bedtime protests; “I hate you” moments answered with “You hate me?”; “How was your day?” followed by mirroring instead of rapid follow-up questions; repair after snapping (“I’m sorry I snapped”).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding Children's Defiance
1:44 to 3:17
Dr. Becky and Chris Voss explore common parental frustrations regarding children's defiance and the importance of mutual understanding.
“So, I think these phrases are the most common things parents come to me about.”
The Power of 'No' in Parenting
3:17 to 5:48
Chris Voss explains how children’s use of 'no' reflects their need for autonomy, and how parents can respond effectively.
“All right, Chris, I want to start with the word no, because...”
Strategies for Effective Parenting
5:48 to 14:00
Dr. Becky and Chris discuss strategies for parents to foster cooperation and understanding with their children, emphasizing communication techniques.
“And in point of fact, if you get somebody to say no, anybody, they feel strong, safe, and protected.”
Understanding Child Autonomy
14:00 to 15:11
Explore the importance of autonomy in children and how it influences behavior.
“And the United States is founded on a concept, give me liberty or give me death.”
Mirroring as a Parenting Tool
15:12 to 16:04
Learn about the mirroring technique and how it fosters better communication between parents and children.
“And I'm going to play some things for you that I think so many of us as parents were conditioned to respond to with lecture, okay?”
The Impact of Listening on Kids
16:05 to 18:25
Discover how effective listening and mirroring can drastically improve communication with children.
“So maybe it's around a kid wanting social media, parents saying no, or a kid is, you know, holding their phone and the rule is no phone in the bedroom, right?”
Understanding Kids' Emotional Expressions
18:26 to 20:30
Delve into how kids express frustration and the importance of validating their feelings.
“i guarantee you by the third day because we get these emails from our clients all the time my daughter is talking to me and all I did was mirror.”
Curiosity vs. Approval in Parenting
20:31 to 24:32
Examine the balance between curiosity and the need for boundaries in parenting.
“And some of them come to her like, how do I get my daughter to talk to me?”
Empathy Without Agreement
24:33 to 27:09
Understand the distinction between empathy and agreement in parenting conversations.
“So there's something under the I hate you.”
Summarizing Perspectives in Parenting
27:10 to 28:00
Learn how summarizing your child's perspective can enhance understanding in conversations.
“So you got to make sure that when you say, let me see if I got this right, then you got to say out loud what they're communicating.”
Show all 21 chapters
Understanding Kids' Perspectives
28:00 to 28:30
Learn how to show empathy toward children's feelings and perspectives.
“You know, as silly as it sounds, say their perspective out loud.”
The Balance of Being Right vs. Effective
28:30 to 29:00
Discuss the importance of being effective over simply being right in parenting.
“You don't want to be overwhelmed by them.”
The Power of Right vs. That's Right
29:00 to 31:50
Explore the difference between saying 'you're right' and 'that's right' in conversations.
“parents is, you know, kind of with your kid, you can be right or you can be effective, but you can rarely be both, you know, so your home, your life, you pick, you know?”
Using Effective Questions with Kids
33:44 to 36:26
Learn about the importance of asking what and how questions instead of why.
“Well, I guess I'm also thinking about you're right and that's right in terms of kind of singular versus relational.”
Understanding the Impact of 'Why' Questions
36:26 to 42:00
Examine why asking 'why' can be counterproductive in conversations with kids.
“And the way you said that, first, first of all, you just laying out empathy, the other person's perspective.”
Understanding Aggression in Kids
42:00 to 45:30
Exploring the deeper reasons behind children's aggressive behaviors.
“But I think after you left here, if someone heard me say, oh, why does that keep happening?”
The Power of Apologies in Parenting
45:30 to 48:50
Discussing the importance and impact of apologizing to children.
“Then I've removed any doubt as to what I heard or it's a collaborative moment.”
Fear, Authority, and Autonomy
48:50 to 52:20
Examining how fear influences parental authority and children's autonomy.
“Everybody wants to deal with somebody who's fearless.”
Collaborative Parenting Approaches
52:20 to 56:00
Strategies for collaborating with children and partners in parenting.
“which usually just leads to more invalidation or being told we're dramatic, which leads to more escalation.”
Effective Communication Strategies for Parents
56:00 to 57:22
Learn how to phrase questions to promote positive discussions with your partner.
“Even if I've had a preamble, to some degree, my partner might hear metacommunication.”
Reflecting on the Conversation's Impact
57:22 to 58:19
Discover the importance of question phrasing in establishing autonomy and common ground.
“I want to share the thing that is loudest in my brain right now after my conversation with Chris.”
Transcript
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1:45I'm not going. No, no, no. So, I think these phrases are the most common things parents come to me about. What do I do when my kid says no, when they refuse, when they just cross their arms and look at me in a way I never would have looked at my parents? My kid's defiant. My kid's difficult. How do I get my kid to cooperate? Okay, I have the most amazing guest to talk about this exact topic. Chris Voss. Chris spent decades as an FBI hostage negotiator. and his work is built around a truth that every parent eventually learns the hard way. When people feel cornered, they do not become more reasonable just because we lecture or scream or give them an even more intense threat.
2:34Now, kids are not hostage takers. They're kids, and we'll be clear about that. And conflict has patterns. Escalation has patterns. And staying steady under pressure is a skill that everyone can learn. So today we're going to talk about tools, mirroring, labeling, voice, better questions, actually wanting to hear the word no from the other person, and what to do in those five seconds after your kid refuses to do something they actually have to do. And we'll also be talking about how to use these tools in a way that protects what matters most. staying connected to your kid. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside.
3:22All right, Chris, I want to start with the word no, because... No.
3:30Sorry, you threw me a softball. I did. I did. I walked right into that one. Well, it's one of the number one things I hear from parents as a, I don't know, kind of as a complaint, as a frustration. My kid always says no, no to bath, no to bedtime, no to soccer practice. And they love soccer. But you have a different perspective on no about whether it's a problem, whether you actually want to elicit a no. So tell me a little bit about that and then maybe we'll apply it to toddlers. Yeah. Well, an interesting thought also thing about applying it to toddlers and how they learn it. But, you know, the act of saying no.
4:08Makes us feel safe and protected. it. And empathy is about not what it is to you, but what is it to the other side? We can be in exactly the same conversation. You could be loving it. I could feel squashed. And you are loving it so much, you don't even notice I feel squashed. It's one of the problems with sharing common ground. I start to tell something about my childhood and you leap in and tell a story about your childhood. And you feel so strongly about that. You don't realize you just squashed me. You stole my story. But you're having such a great time sharing. You don't have any idea the other side feels stolen.
4:45So yes, both the words yes and no, and a lot of other words are exactly like that. We hate to hear no, but everybody loves to say it. Because every time you said no, you protected yourself from something. It's a Pavlovian response. I think principally triggered by so many people in their younger, innocent days were bamboozled by yes. Like I still have somewhere in my storage a coupon book I spent$25 for when I was 19. It was supposed to be worth$5 ,000 and I never figured out how to spend any of the coupons. I'm sure I get yesed into that. So everybody gets bamboozled by yes, so much so that it sounds harsh, but my comparison is a better child.
5:34So regardless of intent of yes, people are worried that they're going to get hooked. So everybody's worried about saying yes to anything because everybody's been conned with yes. So no is the same way. If yes is I'm being conned, no, I protected myself. No, okay. And in point of fact, if you get somebody to say no, anybody, they feel strong, safe, and protected. which interestingly enough modeling for toddlers adults are modeling how to be in control and kids don't learn what you tell them they learn what they see you model so as an adult you're modeling control to them by saying no so that's how they learn it so i'm thinking about the toddler saying no, because the first image I had when you were saying a no makes us feel protected, right, is I say to my toddler or my eight-year-old, my 10-year-old, hey, you know, whatever we're doing, it's been fun.
6:36It's time to get ready for bed. No. I kind of picture, I don't know, I'm saying, hey, it's time to start the bedtime routine. And they're kind of saying, and they only say this through no, because they probably aren't sophisticated enough, even like we aren't sometimes to say, hold on, I'm still having fun. I'd really rather not go to bed. I really would like to watch another episode. I want to keep playing Clue, whatever we're doing. They just say no. But it is kind of like a boundary around them. Like this is me. I don't want to. And this is you. You want me to. Right. But then things escalate a lot.
7:10Right. We, I don't know. We start yelling at our kids. We tell them. How dare you? I'm in control. I'm the boss. I'm the dad. You're going to be so tired. You know, you never listen. what as an expert in negotiations like what what have working with so many adult situations taught you about kind of what might actually be effective in that moment well so i and my my thoughts also on a parent you're really trying to help your kids think yeah so you know by giving them orders are you helping them think and then of course you're saying well to be an adult is to give orders and you're not really appearing to be collaborative.
7:51Now, there's a limit to that with a toddler or at any age a collaborative. But, you know, what we teach people on a regular basis is if you make what they want, what you want the path to what they want. So with a how question, because how it makes people think. like how are you going to be able to do what you want to do tomorrow if you don't go to bed now you know you want to trigger thought patterns in your kids you want to get them to think with you maybe it takes a little bit longer you know you're trying to get your kid to go to bed because you're tired you're worn out you're at the end of the day you're a little gas you're you suffering from massive decision fatigue and then you got this task ahead you know put this lively wild protesting toddler to bed and it's just horrifying to you and overwhelming because it's been a tough long day yeah so you know an adult as a human it's tough to be your best at the end of the day yeah so the challenge is you know how did you walk into that in the first place a little bit seeing it coming now this happens to me every night okay well at some point in time is it predictable?
9:07Like you know when nine o 'clock is. It ain't surprising you. What kind of prep? Can you head it off? Or it's top man and adult. Busy day. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Getting things done on time. And you got to put this squirmy, lively creature down. Yeah. For the night. I want to come back to something you said where, tell me if I got this right. You're saying, this is probably true, adult to adult or adult to kid, I need to figure out how I can kind of create, like how I can be on the same team as my kid against going to bed. We have to kind of align toward that goal. Is that right? Versus all of a sudden I'm in enemy territory where it's me against my kid.
9:51Yeah. Yeah. Well, how are you going to grow to be big and strong if you don't get a good night's sleep? Now, I'm not saying you're going to get an automatically good response, but But how and what questions are designed to get people to think, whether you're an adult or a child. If I want you to think with me about getting something done, I'm going to say, how do we achieve this? That's as much to get you to think about it as it is to get an answer. And when we're teaching negotiation, you got to be careful with how and what as questions for adults because they're fatiguing the answer. They trigger what Danny Connelly called deep thinking.
10:32Yeah. You know, what's the biggest challenge you face? I can ask you that at 10 o 'clock in the morning. You probably lay it out for me. What keeps you up at night? 10 o 'clock in the morning, you're going to give me a good answer. Four o 'clock in the afternoon, I say to you, what keeps you up at night? You'd be like, I don't know. Leave me alone. But I think then I'm going to translate that for parents. We're also talking about timing. Timing matters, right? Yeah, good point. So many times for parents, parents will say, well, what do I do at nine o 'clock when my kids having a tantrum about not going to bed and I'm at my wits end.
11:01And I often say like, I don't know, there's not many good options at that point. Like your car is so close to a cliff, but if your kid is protesting bed 19 nights in a row, it seems like Saturday morning when you're together in a calm moment, that might be a more opportune time to, to collaborate around, you know nighttime issues yeah well there's there's two things because you know they say when you're up to your rear end in alligators it's not a good time to be reminded you should have drained the swamp in the first place exactly so you're up to your rear end in alligators when the kids throwing a tantrum they're doing that because you conditioned them it's successful you rewarded that bad behavior in the past by giving in maybe oh no without question that's That's learned behavior.
11:53I mean, you think it's, I mean, kids have tantrums often because they're overwhelmed in a situation, right? I mean, parents can set boundaries all day long around things and still some kids are just overwhelmed and it comes out that way. What are some of the things you coach adults to do with other adults when they hear a no? They're trying to get to a yes, but they hear no. Like, what are some of the moves? Well, if I, you know, then trigger a no. Like it's so automatic and it's so stupid. If I say to you, do you agree with this? You'd be like, eh. And but if I say, do you disagree? You'd be like, no, I don't disagree.
12:31But, you know, here are the issues, which is a quick, if you feel safe and protected, then immediately you're going to either give me implementation or issues and it's going to be genuine. And so what I really need on either one, because a yes or no is simply a decision. What's important is what comes after. And what comes after is a genuine discussion of implementation or obstacles. And so if I say, does this look like a bad idea? And you have obstacles. And then you say, no, it's not a bad idea, but here are the obstacles. Now, you've given that to me genuinely. if I say, does this look like a good idea?
13:14Ideally, you would say, well, yes, it's a good idea, but here are the obstacles. But since everybody has been conditioned that every time they say yes, the yes momentum, by definition, if you look it up, it says every yes is a micro agreement or a tie down, which means every time you say yes, you get tied down a little more. Maslow says in a hierarchy needs number one survival. And I contend and hostage negotiators in human history has borne out that the number one need is autonomy. And if you think survival is more important than autonomy, then I'll ask you to point out in the entire history of mankind civilization, one society that was content in slavery.
13:57Every enslaved society has been willing to die to get out of slavery. And the United States is founded on a concept, give me liberty or give me death. Now, we didn't invent that. We choose autonomy over survival. And so to say no is to give yourself autonomy, to protect your autonomy. You know, I'm thinking about, I think there are these kids, I kind of call them like resilient rebels. That's like my subtype of these kids where they are deeply, deeply attached to their autonomy. And everyone is. But these kids, especially, they appear strong willed. They appear defiant. But I think what happens when they feel done to or controlled is they go scorched earth, which is kind of a way of saying like they would choose autonomy.
14:43They're trying to not literally burn their house down, but they want to take it all down when they don't have a say in their bedtime or what clothes they're wearing or their breakfast or whatever kind of micro moment represents. am I actually my own independent person? And I think they're so attuned to it. And those kids are especially challenging because they're so strong in those situations. So I hear what you're saying. I think there's a lot of truth to that. All right. So, okay. So another tool you talk about that I think is really interesting is mirroring, right? And I'm going to play some things for you that I think so many of us as parents were conditioned to respond to with lecture, okay?
15:23Which is definitely not mirroring, right? So I'm not going to bed. Oh, you are going to bed. And if you don't get this much sleep, right? Or I don't want to go to the birthday party. We already RSVP'd for the birthday party. It's your cousin. We have to go to the birthday party. Okay. What's, what's coming up? What's up coming up for you? Well, yeah. I mean, it's a parental challenges. One-on-one life as a parent, right? Especially as the older they get and the more they're looking for autonomy or then puberty. When the brain is being scrambled by growth. Yes. And they don't know which way is up.
16:01Let's go to, you know, a micro moment in the house. Let's say it's around puberty, right? So maybe it's around a kid wanting social media, parents saying no, or a kid is, you know, holding their phone and the rule is no phone in the bedroom, right? I think these are these moments when it's so easy to launch into a lecture, right? But you talk about like kind of mirroring or three words, right? Can you, can you speak a little bit about that? That's really with parents and kids, that's one of the magic tools. Yeah. And mirroring is just repeating the last one to three-ish words. Could be one word, could be usually number one and five.
16:35And then the inflection is really important. It's either inflection of comprehension, which would be the last three words. Downward inflection. Comprehension. You can downward inflect just by dropping your chin. Male or female. You could have a high squeaky voice like Minnie Mouse. If you drop your chin, you still downward deflect. You don't got to have a deep voice to downward deflect. Or curiosity? And the physical movement with that is also just turning your head to the side and lifting your chin. Either side. It doesn't make any difference. And it's really encouraging. And so sort of the classic moment, how was your day?
17:15Fine. What did you learn? I forget. All right. So you get in, you conditioned your child into that dynamic. And how did you do that? Because when you said, how was your day? The first time they laid it all out, you immediately went to what did you learn? Which gave no indication whatsoever that you listened to what they said. A lot of really well-intentioned parents want to show interest. Just ask these two questions. How was your day? What did you learn? How was your day? What did you learn? You do that two or three times, a kid catches on. You didn't listen to the answer in the first place. So me as an adult, if you're not listening to me, I'm not going to talk to you.
17:57So no shortages of moms have started the conversation back up with their daughters. How was your day? Fine. And she says, fine. Curiosity, upward inflection, a mirror. and the next conversation the kid goes you heard that answer you actually listened i'm shocked and two or three conversations later it's not going to happen that day i guarantee you by the third day because we get these emails from our clients all the time my daughter is talking to me and all I did was mirror. And we're having the longest conversations now that we haven't had in years. So the question's a great well-intentioned question.
18:55And the mirror, the skill that you just asked me about, is the easiest way to show that you caught it. Now you may have caught the answer, but if you immediately move on to the next question, they got no idea and it's as simple as the mirror and opening kids up right and left all over the place you know i'm thinking about what it would feel like for me or it's happened when someone asks me a question i share something and they're on to their next question um i feel like i'm an item on their to-do list yeah like i'm yeah fulfilling their agenda well said you know and there's, I guess, like you're right, there's not a lot of space for me in that conversation.
19:38I'm kind of like an object in some way. And I guess what we're all looking for when our kid is coming home is for them to be the subject of the story and for us to listen. But we don't always actually communicate that by the way we respond. Right. And again, there's nothing wrong with the intention. Yeah. But it's intention and impact. Parents ask those questions. The intention is to show interest. And you are interested. And the intention is to grow them and help them think. Yeah. And so it's all there. And so the tiny little tweak, though, is making them, and you can't say, I understand. That, you know, that's a whole conditioning thing as well, which is, it's what people say when they want you to stop talking.
20:22I understand, now listen to me. So we're conditioned that I understand is somebody shutting you off. But the mirror is the simplest skill. And we've got, you know, I got women coaches on my team, Sandy Hine, and she's got a lot of women clients. And some of them come to her like, how do I get my daughter to talk to me? And Sandy's like, mirror them. You'd be shocked. And they get back to her in a week and go like, it's great. It took two or three conversations. Now suddenly she's talking to me again. And tell me if this is right, because I think about the parent who's listening thinking, okay, all right, my kid's at school, they're in camp.
21:04They're going to say, how was your day, sweetie? Fine. And I'm going to say, fine. And I have to wait. I feel like there's something about waiting that matters. Yeah. Okay, so talk about that. Well, Derek Gaunt on my team pointed out to me that it takes at least six seconds for neurochemicals that you've triggered to go through somebody's system. So when you signal comprehension or curiosity, then it's really important to go silent so that whatever feeling of being heard, and when somebody feels heard, neurochemicals are triggered inside. And you got to let them work their way through the system.
21:46And six seconds is a long time. Most people can't stop talking for one second. I mean, it is, especially in 2026 when we get, you know, information by the, by the nanosecond, right? So our children are much slower than our algorithms. Yeah. So it's, it's critical to let it sink in. Yeah. Let them react. And I just want to stay with this one more moment, because I, I'm thinking about the meta communication we have with people, which is under our words. So I'm thinking about how was your day? Fine. and in some ways the fine is my kid's way of saying are you here are you really listening interesting do I really matter yeah I would agree and if you mirror back you're saying to me hey kiddo I'm really here I'm dialed in you're you're the subject here I'm listening yeah and if I move on to the next question instead okay well what'd you do what'd you do in camp did you work on that soccer move in some ways when I move on to that quickly when my kid asks me are you really here?
22:46Are you really listening? Do you care? I think what they hear, even though it's not the intention is no, I just, I have a number of answers I need from you and you didn't give me a satisfactory first one. So I'm just going to move on to the next one. Completely agree. And it's, as you said, it's not the intention. Let me ask you one more question about mirroring. Let's say your kid is saying something, you know, pretty escalated. I hate you. You're the worst dad in the world, right? What's the version of mirroring that you think is kind of effective in that moment? Well, I, you know, if somebody were to say to me, I hate you, I'd be like, hate me?
23:23Just curiosity is a superpower. Kid says, I hate you. If you go, you hate me? Curiosity. Yeah. First of all, you survive. It protects you. Yes. It's a selfish thing to do to protect your state of mind, but you're no good for the kid if you're angry with them, if you're offended. You just started to go down a rabbit hole that's very difficult to recover from. So to be a great parent, you got to protect your psyche first. Yeah. And if you can put yourself in curiosity, now you can get a grip. Let me ask you, because I think parenting, and I'm curious if you see it in other places too, so far as in hostage negotiation.
24:11Something happens where parents conflate curiosity with approval or permissiveness. Interesting, yeah. Right? Okay, so being curious in that moment, right? You're kind of able in that moment to say, okay, something's going on for my kid. I don't know exactly what it is, but they don't really have the words or the regulation to be able to tell me exactly what they're upset about or the series of events. So there's something under the I hate you. But what I hear from parents that stops them from being curious is my kid can't think this is okay. So I'm going to stay calm. Then my kid is going to learn that you can just talk to people like that.
24:47Right. And so there's this, something's getting conflated there. I'm curious if you see that in your kind of more adult focus work. That's a really interesting point. And I think as the user, you're going to be very, you're going to really be conscious and be concerned about what you've demonstrated is okay. Mm-hmm. And you got to test drive curiosity enough. I mean, empathy is not approval. Mm-hmm. Empathy is not sympathy. Empathy is not agreement. Mm-hmm. Empathy is not compassion, although it's a very compassionate thing to do. Empathy is a precursor to compassion. And a lot of people have trouble not making it synonymous with agreement.
25:27Understanding is not agreement. Exactly. And as soon as you internally can make that distinction, And then if anybody ever has, um, tries to question, oh, so you understand that means you agree. My answer is always like, no, I don't agree. It's not going to stop me from understanding. It's not going to stop me from being curious. And by and large, people don't pull that game on us. And then even if you're worried, you can say, before I disagree. is what I think you're saying. So you told somebody up front you didn't agree. If you're worried about it. Yep. Before I disagree, let me see if I got this right.
26:12There you go. Exactly. And so maybe internally, I'm just thinking about the parent who's thinking, my kid can't talk to me like that. I don't want them to think I approve of this behavior. And if I'm being curious and I'm going to understand it, is that approving? And if I'm trying to figure out that journey. Maybe a little cheat code is saying out loud, before I disagree, before I tell you why that behavior wasn't okay, let me see if I got this right. It's kind of like, I feel internally, if that's a new journey for me, I can, I feel a little safer. I think it's a great cheat code. Yeah. Now then the rest of the trick is when you say before I disagree, let me see if I got this right.
26:54As a Hollywood exec, I've been quoting for a couple of years, Bob Evans, he said, there's three sides to every story, your side, my side, and the truth. So a lot of people, when they're going to summarize a situation, they'll summarize their perspective instead of the other person's perspective. And that's an easy trap to fall into. So you got to make sure that when you say, let me see if I got this right, then you got to say out loud what they're communicating. You really, you thought you could stay up later tonight. You wanted to watch the rest of the Knicks game. Well, you want to watch the Knicks game because it's important to you.
27:37That's what they're saying. Let me get this straight. You want to watch the Knicks game because it's important to you, and you think that if you don't, your life is over. Yeah. Which is, you know, I have to, kids protest. It's going to be, I just die if this, you know, my life will be over. All right, so let me get this straight. You're actually going to die. You know, as silly as it sounds, say their perspective out loud. It shows you're not scared of it. A hundred percent, which I think if we go back to what we're really teaching kids in a moment, I think that's the irony is if we have a longer term perspective, it's not so much that my kid is learning my parent approves of this behavior, but if my parent is as overwhelmed by me as I am by me, that's probably the biggest lesson of, you know, that I'm going to take going forward.
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28:30Very true. You're dead on. You don't want to be overwhelmed by them. Yeah. If you can summarize their perspective, then you're showing you're not afraid of, you're not overwhelmed. Mm-hmm. Same thing with being curious. If I'm curious about something, the thing didn't kill me kind of in the moment, right? Yeah. Well said. So, okay. So there's three sides to every story. There's my side, there's your side, and then there's the truth. It makes me think about something else that you talk about, which is the difference between you're right and that's right. And one of the things I often tell parents is, you know, kind of with your kid, you can be right or you can be effective, but you can rarely be both, you know, so your home, your life, you pick, you know?
29:09Um, but what is the difference between your right and that's right in terms of which we're gearing toward in a conversation? You know, and that's one of those classic phrases, depends upon which side of it you're on, how you hear it. Cause there isn't a human being that I know, um, over the age of 12 that hasn't learned that if somebody has given them a hard time in order to make that person feel really happy and get them to shut up and go away all you got to do is look at them say you're right and people find hearing that so satisfying that they get happy and they shut up and they lay off and there isn't it you know everybody i know has done it two or three times each week with a boss a colleague a family member especially somebody who's in a position if they're in a position where you want to or you have to preserve the relationship you don't want to offend them but you want them to shut up so you're right and they and they stop talking yeah and so we use it as a tool to get people to shut up and go away and yet almost everybody falls victim to it when somebody says you're right to them they go like yeah of course i'm right yo i'm so happy woohoo and i'm sad since I'm satisfied that I've made my point with the other side, I can stop talking.
30:32Point made. Yeah. It really is like is ongoing human comedy. So the flip side, that's right until you understand what it means is not as satisfying to hear because you, the word you is always much more engaging to us. It reaches in and touches us in a way that not everybody fully appreciates. And that's why you're like, you're right. Because that you word is in there, you're attached to right. And when you hear that's right, you don't feel attached to it. But, and then when people say it, they don't consciously realize. They say it when they feel that what they've heard is not your truth or my truth, but it's the truth.
31:21And then hearing the truth, they don't realize it, but then they get attached to the purveyor of that truth. Yeah. And that's a very strong bond. Charismatic leaders, it doesn't matter who you are, you start getting that's rights out of your followers and then data to the contrary will not shake you. Yeah. Because they told the truth. They're the purveyors of the truth. And you don't realize how bonded you get to these people.
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33:55Well, I guess I'm also thinking about you're right and that's right in terms of kind of singular versus relational. So if I'm saying you're right, Chris, I kind of stop existing in the moment. Like you have the right. I'm over here alone. There's nothing between us. If I think about a good conversation with my kid where I'm saying, okay, I want to see if I got this right. The moment they say, yeah, mom, that's right. We as a relationship, we are bonded together around that. It's a very relational kind of phrase. Sometimes if my kid says to me, you're right, there's in some ways they're saying maybe they're wrong, right?
34:37Or something. There's a right and a wrong, but it's very singular. It's very a relational. There's a barrier there they're putting up at some point in time, whether they mean to or not, or even in our day-to-day relationships. I just, you can just see people's body language. There's something about they're holding them. They feel a barrier. They're holding themselves back. It's your truth. Yeah. For some kind of reason, even if they feel it's the truth, they're not attached to it. It's still your truth. And so there's no matter what, there's some kind of barriers there between the two of you. And that's right.
35:12The barrier is gone. Yeah. You know, it's interesting as we've been talking, I think about when things feel off with my kids. And let's say we go back to that example of peppering kids with questions, feeling like my kid doesn't answer me. But really, I'm just asking question after question and not listening. if I'm in a situation like that, I find one of the most effective things is to go to my kid in a con moment after I've realized and say something like, you ever feel like when I ask you questions after kind of you go home from school, I'm not really listening to you. I'm just asking one thing after another.
35:46Right. And often my kid will say, yeah, like kind of some version of, yeah, that that's right. And I find that is the singular thing that helps us kind of reconnect. Right. kind of really owning what I've been doing. And it just makes me think about any parent listening, when you think about these communication techniques, which really are about connection also and building connection with someone, moving from me against you to kind of me and you, maybe against a problem. So many times the things we feel guilty about or the pattern we recognize in ourself that isn't working can actually be the thing that we use to get to the, that's right with our kid.
36:27Right. A thousand percent. And the way you said that, first, first of all, you just laying out empathy, the other person's perspective. And then I have no doubt that you delivered it exactly the way you said just now, which was curious and collaborative and, you know, almost like I'm kind of a goof, aren't I? You know, it's, there's, it's, it's almost humorous, playful. Yeah. Yeah. Playful. Yeah. Am I ever annoying sometimes? Do I ask you a lot of questions? Am I, have I become a mom like that? Right. There's, yeah, there's a, there's a playfulness and kind of a levity to it. Yeah. And which makes you more approachable.
37:07Yeah. Versus I think if I can be in the mindset of, oh, my kid withholds things from me and my kid doesn't talk to me. Right. And I'm looking for my kid to kind of affirm that that's true about them. And, you know, I'm just trying to become close to them and they're kind of holding a barrier that, that, that enemy mindset comes through. And then I find in those conversations, my kid becomes a lot more defensive. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And tension can have a smell. Yeah. So one of the things you talked about earlier was using what and how questions. Right. You did not say why questions. Yeah. Right.
37:45So I want you to speak about that a little bit because I do think in our moments of frustration, why don't you ever listen to me? Why don't you just go to bed? Why won't you put your phone down? Are those, sometimes I think we ask questions that aren't really questions. They just have a question mark at the end. Most of the time, yeah. They're accusations. Yeah. So what's wrong with those why questions? Everybody's been conditioned that if you're being asked why the other side thinks you made a mistake. Now you could, and it's a crazy thing about the term why, you know, because Simon Sinek will say find out their why.
38:17Well, you do need to find out their why. But the problem is every time you think somebody made a mistake, you're going to ask them why. and we hope that we think well i i didn't think they made a mistake but i still need to know why well you conditioned them seven out of ten times when they made a mistake the first word coming out of your mouth is why and they've been can we've all been conditioned that way since we were very small around the world universally whenever you made the slightest mistake as a toddler or you pulled something down off a table because you were just learning to stand, assist it.
38:57And you're groping and you're curious and you saw the shiny object and you pulled it off the table and it happened to be glass. And the nearest monster, also known as an adult, you know, Godzilla standing next to you because they were towering over you and they point a finger at you and they go, why did you do that? And it's an unintentional. It's one thing that I learned worldwide in negotiations, hostage negotiations first in business after that. You want to set somebody off, ask them why. Automatically makes them mad because they feel accused. And so you may genuinely want to know why. But again, the conditioning is it's an accusation.
39:42well well i think probably most of the time we say why do our kids we don't actually want to know why it is kind of an accusation right because i don't sure listen to me yeah why'd you hate your sister right now that that can be a legitimate question i'm not going to ask it in the heat of the moment because my four-year-old's not gonna be able to give me a good answer but i might later at night say hey sweetie you know this is one of my favorite phrases right you're you're you're a hard time. You're a good kid who was having a hard time and hitting is not okay. And also I wasn't in the room. There must've been something that happened that led to that.
40:19Let's actually figure that out because if we figure that out, we can figure out something else to do. I'm kind of asking, I'm trying to figure out the why, right? But that's very different than, you know, a second later when my daughter comes saying, my brother hit me, why didn't you hate your sister? I think what I'm really saying more from that meta communication is you're a bad kid. You're a bad kid yes right and you're doing bad things yeah and nobody nobody likes to be seen that way right exactly yeah yeah so leave out the whys or at least leave out the whys when you're when you don't actually have curiosity behind it and if you can't stop yourself you just build the habit of changing it to what what made you do that and then it at least takes this thing of accusation out and then begins to try to find the journey that there was a causal factor just like what You talked about something that's been going on in the room when I wasn't in there.
41:09I don't know what's happening. Yeah. There was a causal factor. Now, you don't like the way they interpreted that causal factor. But the minute that you can recognize there may have been a contributing factor, which, again, doesn't take the responsibility off. You just want to have a secondary conversation whether or not this was an appropriate response to the triggering factor. That's right. Two different things. but you'll get at it if you could just switch why to what you know one of the things i always tell parents because they'll say again but aren't i then approving of that behavior from you know kind of asking questions about it is i say let's say i had the habit of spilling i don't know my water onto my guest every time they're on a podcast and just you know you're the 20th across yeah i just have this habit i don't know it just goes and you know if someone heard me say so if that happens well how am i supposed to interpret that well why did you do that right But I think after you left here, if someone heard me say, oh, why does that keep happening?
42:09What's going on with my hand? I don't think anyone would say, Becky, you're really being permissive about your water throwing behavior. They'd say, well, of course I need to figure out what's going on before I can effectively change it. Right. So trying to figure out why is my kid hitting? Why is my kid saying nasty things to their sibling? Why does every discussion with my teen end in I hate you and slamming the door in my face? That's just a precursor to trying to figure out an effective solution. Yes. And does that go so far? Because your work involves even higher stakes things than me and my teenager and his damn door.
42:50We're talking about life and death, hostage negotiation. The other life did, yeah. Is that still a part of it, trying to figure out the why? Like, what is this really about? What is the deeper need this person has, even in those high stakes situations where clearly you're not you're not trying to approve of the hostage situation. But is that something you feel like is an important thing to figure out? Oh, without question, because it unlocks their collaboration. Say more. Well, so first of all, people make choices as a progression of failures. Like nobody's turned to violence as a means of getting things done.
43:29People make choices as a progression of failures. Right. Okay. Nothing works all the time. You just need something that works more than anything else. It's basically the Las Vegas analogy. If I'm the best card counter that ever lived, I'm going to lose some hands. but I win so many, then the losses are not a big deal. Communication strategies with bad guys, communication strategies with your kids. Nothing works all the time. You need what works more than anything else. You know, I'm thinking about the parent listening who feels very stuck with their kid, right? So everything ends and I hate you or the slam door.
44:15And I'm just thinking about how kind of that's a form of aggression. you know relational violence right but i think so many times right we see that as a disrespectful kid or something like that versus i'm using your framework kind of a logical progression yeah based on maybe a road that i didn't even know was being paved and and it's interesting because i go back to a question i say i asked my kids if maybe i wasn't listening to them but I think about approaching a teen in such a disarming way of, look, I want to talk about you slamming the doors, but actually you're not in trouble. I wonder if there have been a lot of ways you've been trying to tell me I'm not hearing you or I don't understand you that I've ignored for a while and that maybe I need to kind of listen better.
45:10Maybe you're slamming the doors is kind of the end result of many years where I haven't really been understanding it. I just, I think about how disarming that would be to a 15 year old to hear versus if you slam one more door, don't even think you're going to that concert with your friend. And then I know my kid is sneaking out and going to that concert. Yeah. Right. Or something's going to get broken or something's going sideways soon. Yeah. Kind of this logical progression. and it's so interesting because in your work it it goes back to feeling seen to feeling heard to feeling seen and does that go back to autonomy if that's the most basic need is that how we feel kind of autonomous and independent yeah yeah i think so feeling hurt yeah feeling heard and being heard and feeling heard are not the same thing say more well i could have heard you but you don't know until I express it back to you.
46:05Yeah. Then I've removed any doubt as to what I heard or it's a collaborative moment. You can say, well, that's not exactly it. Here's what it is. Yeah. You know, your kid slammed the door and screamed. There was stuff that happened to them on the way to the house. If I snap at somebody at the end of the day, I had four or five things go wrong during the day. they had nothing to do with. And unfortunately, I haven't managed to, you know, empty my bucket or whatever phrase you want, you know, got back in the right frame of mind. And then five o 'clock, something goes wrong. There's a pretty good chance, you know, just somebody on my team's getting a harsh, very pointed text message.
46:48Yep. When there were the other four things they weren't responsible for. You know, that happens to us as adults. So your kids journey home. Like they got messed with by somebody at school. The teacher snapped at them because the teacher was having a bad day. You know, they got the accumulation of negativity. Be nice to know whether or not you contributed or whether got them to recognize it. You know, mom and dad didn't really contribute to this one. I just, you know, there was other stuff that set me up for this. Broke the camel's back, if you will. What about repair? You know, I talk a lot about repair with parents, meaning apologizing to your kids.
47:25Hey, I snapped at you earlier, right? I'm sorry that that didn't feel good um I think repair is one of the most important relationship strategies that an accumulation of kind of hard and unrepaired moments can really take their toll in a relationship I'm curious how you see it no I agree I mean I think apology is is a great tool the degree of impact that it has on different types of people varies some people just gotta to hear apologies. Some people, they're somewhat indifferent to it, but yet they still, an apology helps. As a general term, I'm of the type, two out of three people are a little bit indifferent.
48:08One person really likes it. But the bottom line is there's no downside to it. You know, so if you're wondering why not you should apologize, and it's got to be a real apology. You know, I'm sorry you feel that way. That's the, that's the fake apology. Yeah. You know, I'm sorry you reacted badly to it, which, you know, is equivalent of saying, I'm sorry, you're an idiot. It's not an apology. Yep. But there's like almost never downside to it. If it's a sincere, you know, I'm sorry, snap. Nobody should be happy that they snapped. Right. So.
48:49Apologize for it. You know, even if you were right yeah in what you said even if you were right in your judgment snapping at somebody doesn't help and so you should be sorry you snapped and yeah then then the repair function the repair is a great idea you've you've shown i see humility and fearlessness to be almost synonymous and showing humility is to be fearless yeah and the other person finds that wonderful. Everybody wants to deal with somebody who's fearless. It's a great thing to model. So apologies are appropriate. So what about the parent who thinks, I'm going to lose my leverage with my kid if I apologize, if I repair, the power dynamic is all off.
49:39How does that fit into kind of negotiation, leverage, influence? I don't, I, you know, there's a lot of common fears like that that we conjure up in our brain And we conjure these things up in our brain because as humans, we're wired to be fearful. We're wired to be negative. The fearful caveman did not go wandering into the swamp stupidly. The fearless caveman, in point of fact, wandered into the swamp, got eaten by the alligators. So we're wired in. The amygdala is our dominating thinking mechanism. the fear centers in the brain until we've learned to rely on our instincts. Our instincts are really, really super, super accurate, incredibly accurate.
50:24And so the challenge is always, is the fear coming from your instincts, which is assess the situation and told you based on real experience and real data, you should be concerned, or the fear, I'm afraid I'm losing control. I'm afraid I'm losing my authority. that's the imagined fears in your amygdala and that happens because you're human you know one last thought i've been thinking about it since keep going back to you talking about you're talking about maslow and kind of survival versus autonomy you know one of the questions i think kids are always asking parents even though they never explicitly ask it is am i real I think that's why our relationship with our feelings matters so much because there's no, like when you skin your knee, there's blood and you're like, I'm in pain and I have proof.
51:18And when you're mad or you're disappointed or you're jealous, there's no, there's no proof. Like it, you know, and so I think the reason feeling seen or feeling validated in those feelings as a kid matters so much. I think it's a parent's way of saying you're real. Right. And I think about I'm curious if that core need, that first need for autonomy, even before survival, is in some ways like the definition of being real. Like, am I real? I need to be feel real before I even have a need to survive. Yeah, I like that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would, I would, I would agree. There's a number of things that are so closely intertwined.
51:57It's hard to really sort them out. One, another one is agency. You know, am I real? Cause if you, if you're real, then can I affect my life? Which is agency. Yeah. And yeah, I think it being, am I real is a great thing that's got to be intertwined in both autonomy and agency. And I think that's why when we don't feel real, we escalate our expression in a desperate attempt to get our environment to confirm our realness, which usually just leads to more invalidation or being told we're dramatic, which leads to more escalation. Right. But probably true in your negotiations and in what I see in families all the time.
52:32Yeah, I would agree. Right. I like it a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Anything from your work, from your frameworks, that you feel like parents should be actively teaching their kids? I love that question because it's about collaborating positively with people. And you're always going to get farther the more people you collaborate with positively. So teaching them that and getting them to experiment with it and learn how people collaborate. And it's also, if they fail with somebody, it really means the skill didn't fail. It means you talk to somebody who doesn't want to collaborate. And it's a diagnostic. So it's good to know the people around you that want to victimize you and don't want to collaborate.
53:20And if you're really using the skills and listening to the answers, they never fail. They always give you information about the person's reaction. And that's really helpful. And it's a heck of a shortcut to find out who you want to have around you and who you don't want to have around you. Well, let me see if I got this right or a version of it. where the more as a parent you're working with your kid and collaborating with your kid, because teaching them collaborative problem solving, it's one thing if you kind of teach it with your words, but then approach them in a controlling nature, it's probably not going to teach them that lesson.
53:55But hey, getting out the door has been really hard in the morning. I know neither of us want to be screaming and crying. So let's figure this out together. Or, hey, there's something about going to soccer that's been feeling really hard. I feel like if we talk about it, we can put our minds together and figure it out. Are you also saying the more we kind of engage in that with our kids and teach them that skill, they'll take that into the world. And then also they'll be able to spot people who aren't actually willing collaborators, which, which is a really helpful skill to have going into adulthood.
54:26Yeah, it really is. You know, you're going to, those people are going to drag you down. Yeah. You know, on that note, I'm curious that you think about this, where I have a lot of parents. And it often is the mom who will say some version of, it's hard to get, you know, my partner on board, you know, with kind of this parenting approach. They're a little more old school. And I asked them to kind of, you know, Dr. Becky, watch one of your videos or workshops and they won't, you know, can you help me solve this parenting problem? One thing I say is, look, if you approach your partner in the right way, some version of, hey, I know in the past, I've come at this in a judgmental way.
55:03I don't want to do that. We both love our kids. I'd love for you to watch a video with me. Not because this is right and you're wrong, but just because it gives us something to look at together. Then we could talk about it. And if your partner really says no to that, that's not a parenting problem. It's a marriage problem. Because it's a collaboration refusal. Well, and I would trigger to really diagnose that, ask them with a no-oriented question. Are you against watching this with me? Oh, love that upgrade. Are you against watching this with me? Yeah, it's that simple. And especially, you know, people collaborating with each other.
55:42The yes-no dynamic is huge. Yeah. And people will instantly respond that you preserve their autonomy. That is so good. Are you against watching this with me? And then if my partner says, no, I'm not against it, could I follow up with, oh, great, what time would work? There you go. Perfect. Perfect. But when I say, could we watch this together? Even if I've had a preamble, to some degree, my partner might hear metacommunication. You've been wrong and I'm right and I want to prove it. Or they're just triggering to yes. Okay. So model it one more time for the parent who's thinking, okay, I'm going to try this.
56:16I'm going to approach my partner in a different way. I want them to watch something with me. What's the starting question? And I say, you know, unfortunately, I know I'm a goofball and I'm always after you. And I think that this video would be helpful for both of us and be a better parents for our kids. Are you against watching it with me? And just to play it out, if they say, yeah. And dead silence. Let it sink in. Yeah. You know, and if they, if they don't come off it in the six seconds, beautiful label to really open people up seems like you got a reason for saying that like that is the magic label you can say to anybody under you disagree seems like you got a reason for saying it you agree seems like you got a reason for saying that can that circle back to my you know 16 year old eight year old dreamy i hate you seems like you got a reason for saying that tell me more oh we're gonna end on that because that is really good love it thank you for that upgrade.
57:19Thank you for this conversation. Thanks for having me in. I enjoyed it.
57:28I want to share the thing that is loudest in my brain right now after my conversation with Chris. There's such a big difference between saying to someone, hey, would you be open to watching this video with me? Versus, are you against watching this video with me? I would have never thought to phrase something the second way, but I actually see why it's so much more effective that it allows someone to have their autonomy and freedom and find kind of the common ground. So powerful, asking a question to elicit a no. I'm definitely going to be thinking about that. Now let's end the way we always do.
58:05Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon.
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From the publisher
Chris Voss is a former FBI lead kidnapping negotiator, bestselling author of Never Split The Difference, and founder and CEO of The Black Swan Group; a negotiation, training, coaching, and consulting organization that teaches people how to achieve better outcomes in high-stakes conversations. Today, he teaches some of these same skills to parents - and it turns out the thing that gets a hostage-taker to put down a weapon isn't that different from what gets your eight-year-old to put down the tablet.
Obviously, kids aren’t actual hostage-takers, but in this conversation, Chris and Dr. Becky get into why kids saying "no" is actually a sign of a healthy nervous system, not defiance. Why "how was your day" always gets you "fine," and the one-word fix that doesn't. Why asking your kid "why" almost always backfires, and what to ask instead. And the reframe Chris uses with his own team to get a reluctant partner, coworker, or teenager to actually engage: "are you against this?"
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