Stop Trying to Make Your Kids Creative

0:00I can't get this out of my head, so I'm just going to tell you, you know, the game I played when I was bottomed out the most. I read about it during the pandemic. What's on my butt? Do you know what's on my butt? What is it? You want to hear about the game? I do. You lay down flat on the couch or on the bed. Yeah, yeah. You lay down, you close your eyes and the kids put something on your butt and you get to guess. What's on my butt? What it is. Raise a creative kid. Every parent I talk to is being told that right now. Raise a creative kid. Protect their imagination. Nothing's going to matter in the world going forward except for originality.

0:43It's on every podcast, every parenting account, every school newsletter. And then I read Austin Kleon's new book. And it felt initially counterintuitive and then retrospectively obvious. Because Austin's whole argument is, your kid already has it. The imagination, the originality, the creativity. It's not something we have to install in them. We don't have to give it to them. It's something they came with. And so the question isn't how to put it in there or build it. The question, what we're really going to be talking about today, and it's mind-blowing stuff, but also remarkably simple, is how do we kind of just create the conditions to preserve it and for our kid to access it?

1:23And then there's also a little bit of a deeper question, which I think you're going to appreciate. Do we have access to ours? And guess what? We also talk about how we can re-access it in small, totally manageable ways. Austin's the writer behind Steal Like an Artist, Show Your Work, Keep Going. Books that have taught a generation of adults how to make things. His new one, Don't Call It Art, didn't come from inspiration at an art school. It came from his kitchen table. Inspiration from his kids. Let me also just tell you that I haven't had so much fun talking to someone in a while. I think you'll hear it in my voice.

1:59I think you'll hear it in the stories I end up telling. There was something just so playful about this conversation. And I think you're going to end up having a little playfulness and joy in yourself as you listen. I'm Dr. Becky. This is Good Inside. Let's get into it. Austin, I feel like parents right now are kind of being sold creativity, like it's something to install. Okay. Like workshops, kits, classes, framework, scripts, everything. And I feel like your book kind of says some version of like, stop. Your kid has it. You don't need to install it. And to some degree, maybe it's us, the parents who lost it or lost access to it?

2:47I don't know. Like, is that at all accurate? Tell me more. Yeah. I mean, people kept asking me, well, when are you going to do a creativity book for kids? And I said, well, kids don't need a book. We're the ones that need a book to be more like creative like them. You know, most of the time parents, when it comes to creative stuff with their kids, they just get in the way, you know, because you can't really teach a kid to be creative. what you do is you set the conditions for them to be creative in. You know, creating those conditions for my own kids was what kind of lit up a light bulb for myself.

3:21I was like, wait a minute. If I'm giving my kids this time, space, and materials, how come I don't do that for myself in the studio? I feel like great bands know this. You get in the studio, you set up the vibes, you get the amp set up, you get the drum set up, you do all that. you create the conditions but then what comes out of it it's like the more you focus on that the more you're gonna get gummed up and you're gonna like kind of like you know freeze up you know yeah like you're saying the band the more they're saying okay was that it was that the hit was that gonna be great how about we do it now are we gonna do it now how you're like the vibes are off guys and the vibes are real that's what you're saying the vibes are really gotta trust the vibes a little the vibes are real and what we know about great bands is a lot of their big hits came from them goofing off You know, like a lot, you know, Radiohead is like, I know I have this song.

4:13It's kind of weird. It's about being a creep and then it becomes their biggest hit. You know, Led Zeppelin is like, we got this weird song called Stairway to Heaven. It's not like our other stuff, you know, but it's like something that you learn. That's like something that my kids taught me is it's like it's really when you're messing around that the most creative stuff happens. And I think this is what's really hard for parents is that kids tend to be their most creative when they're really supposed to be doing something else. A hundred percent. I want to share a story that's coming to mind and then I have so many questions for you.

4:44Okay. But it's crazy what just connected in my brain. Okay. Because I think one of my all time best parenting strategies that I've ever come up with, with my own kid, I want to tell you how it happened. Okay. Okay. I'm looking at my team in the studio. Get ready guys. Cause this is, I'm going to model this and you're going to laugh at me for the rest of my life. Okay. So my youngest was stalling, brushing his teeth because he's a kid because all the things you want. I get it. I tried all the things, all the things, Austin. Okay. It was so many nights in a row. So this is what I started saying, talking about messing around.

5:14I go, oh, have I ever told you about this game? I can't even tell you about this game. And of course he's like four. He's like, okay, tell me about the game. And what might be clear to you is I had no idea what was going to come out of my mouth. I was just stalling. I can't tell you. It's so ridiculous. Nope. Can't tell you. And I was like, okay, okay. Well, this game is called, I'm like, what am I going to say? I'm messing around. I don't know what I'm doing. Brush a brush a bruce bruce. I literally, okay. Good title. I want to play brush a brush a bruce. I was like, I bet you do. I bet you do.

5:53I don't even know if I'm going to tell. Okay, fine. Well, I'm going to brush your teeth and let me just show you. Let me demonstrate. And I'm going to start saying, brush a brush a bruce bruce, brush a brush a bruce, brush a brush a bruce, brush a brush a bruce. And I do it and I go, but then you have to listen. And when I go to a different pattern, brush a brush a bruce, you're going to run and you're going to have to spit it out in the sink before I touch the sink. And then I can't even tell you. My older kids. Mom, why don't you play brush a brush a bruce bruce? with me? I literally was like, I messed around.

6:32I had, I was stalling. I can't, I don't even know. It can't even tell you how many Good Inside members go, of all your, that is, that has saved my life. Brush a brush a bruce bruce. If you know, you know. And I'm just thinking about my, I'm like my random creativity. Does that count as creativity? I don't know. But how it came in this total spontaneous stalling, not knowing, uncertain, messing around moment. Perfect. And I think the inciting incident was you saying, you saying, hey, have I ever told you about this game? And you have to deliver now, right? You've engaged. That's the inciting incident.

7:14I created a container. You created the conditions under which the game was made. So, like, that creates the space then that you have to fill the void, right? There's a void now. And I want to link it back to something you said. Kids are the most creative when they're supposed to be doing something else. I have a question, truly. This is like a new insight. Was I my most creative in that moment? Because in some ways, parenting lore says, give your kid a threat. I'm supposed to be threatening. I'm supposed to be exerting my authority. And I kind of opened up this container for something totally different.

7:50Like, I wonder if that's similar to, I want you to tell me more about kids are more, the most creative when they're supposed to be doing something else. I think what you were doing is you were being you were doing the thing that great artists do and great storytellers do, which is, hey, have you ever heard this of this game? Have you ever heard of the story? And you're wait, what's the story? I mean, like, it's it's the hook like that's the hook. It's the hook. You've given them a hook now. I've got you now. And then, you know, so I think that's what you were doing right there is you were kind of doing what the artist does, because people think about art and creative work as being this one way street.

8:26where the artist just makes stuff and puts it out there. But just like I write books and books are nothing without the reader. Yes. Okay. Take me back to, I just kept thinking in your work, the kids that we label as problems and that line, kids are most creative when they're supposed to be doing something else. So kids we label as defiant, uncooperative, dramatic, too much. Is that creativity with nowhere to go? Is that creativity about to be unlocked? Tell me. oh i don't know i was a good boy and like i was a i was a very like um i was not i was a straight a student i was like a very like good boy but i didn't do anything good until i stopped being good right like i didn't really find my work until i was able to do that bad boy stuff that i didn't do when i was a kid you know wait like what didn't you do like tell me about like I, you know, I was, I was, I was like a good boy.

9:24I got good grades and like, you know, and, and like, didn't go out and party much and that kind of thing, you know, and, and did what, you know, my parents expected of me and that kind of thing. The most creative things I did though, were when I was younger, I played in a band and that was kind of the safe space where I could be a little bit wilder and stuff. But, you know, my parents always encouraged me too. So it's not like I was really going on a limb. was really like when with my own creative work, it's when I got out of the structure of school that I really discovered the things that were really unique to me.

9:56And I could kind of like be bad. And when I say be bad, it's like, do the things that weren't serious, right? Because like my stuff, like my books have pictures and words in them, right? Well, you know, if you're in a creative writing workshop and you turn in a story with pictures in it, they're gonna say like, what is this? This is supposed to be in like 12 point Times New Roman, you know? So, I don't know. I mean, I do think that like what an art museum is for is you go into the art museum and you have an encounter with the work of art and you see things the way that the artist sees things. And then you're supposed to go out in the world and have that way of seeing.

10:32Like, everybody knows what it's like to like witness a really great work of art and then you come out and you're like, wow, it looks like a Rembrandt out here or something, you know? Kids skip right over that part because they're already seeing the world in these kind of like artist psychedelic terms. They're already seeing the world as a work of art with the exit signs. And so that was like a really, that was a really, really good moment for me. I want to zoom into that moment because I'm just thinking, and I'm sure you get it too. And maybe this is like child Austin meeting now, liberated adult Austin, but there's this moment you're like, I took, I don't know.

11:09I took the vacation. I'm at the Met. I'm at whatever museum. Okay. And I took my kids here and I want them to appreciate the X because everyone appreciates whatever the X stands for. Okay. And then you see your kid. And I think the short circuited thought is my kid, my kid's ungrateful. My kid's uncooperative. My kid doesn't get it. Right. And that's one response. Okay. And we all have said it. I've said it, right? I've thought it at least. And I've said it. Okay. What, just what is going on in your head? Maybe, maybe you've earned this or now this is more natural, but just to model it, what's a different set of thoughts a parent might have for that kid in that moment?

11:54One of my favorite moments of all time is I was, I got to lead around a group of kids one time, and this was before I had kids and we were in an art museum. And I said, you know, you don't have to know how you, why you like things. And they all looked at me and And they're like, what? I was like, you don't have to know how you like, well, like why you like things. You know, your teachers, they're going to ask you after this, you know, you go look at a piece of art. They're going to say, now write me an essay about why you like this thing. But you know what? You don't have to know right away. You just have to sit with it and like it.

12:24And they were so excited. Wow, this guy's really crazy. But I think you're, I mean, I think what you're saying is kind of the opposite of crazy. because what you're saying to a kid is you can trust a signal in your body before your brain makes sense of it. Exactly. They are taking in the world without the the brain. Yeah, they're getting that raw input and having a response to it, which is exactly what we lose as we get older and what artists manage to have. And it's an opportunity then to be like, who do you think made the exit sign? How do we find that out? Do you think the building next door has different exit signs?

13:05And then it becomes this exploration, this opportunity. Yeah. And I think what you're saying too, which is I always find when I do this with my kids, whenever I tell them something I'm learning from them or they're helping me with, oh, they light up. So I think from your example, I could say, sometimes when I go to a museum, I only let myself like the things I think I'm supposed to like. Kind of like pretty basic of me. And so I'm going to try to wander around and just see what happens. Like, I'm learning that from you. Right. I just I don't know. I like I would feel so good as a parent if I said that.

13:46Like, I would feel like that was meaningful, you know? Yeah. And it's like, why don't you pick us something to look at? you know, giving them the autonomy, giving them the power and the situation. Why don't you lead? Oh, yes. Okay. You talk a lot about learning things from kids. And there's this moment in your book where your son makes a drawing you think is perfect. Okay. And then he throws it away and starts another one. So can you first just walk me through if we had that moment on like 0.2x. So it's really slowed down. What's going on as you're noticing it, what you're feeling during it? Just like what's going on inside you?

14:28I mean, it was happening so much is the thing. It was like, I mean, like I would literally, my son Jules, who still draws and draws in his sketchbook more than most artists I know, like he would draw 50 drawings a day. You know, I mean, we would go through a whole ream of copy paper like in a couple of days and so it was happening so much that there were times where i almost got desensitized to it you know it's like oh yeah he's drawing it yeah jules he's drawing another drawing you know but like the interesting thing to me was just the shock of like you can make something so cool and then just be like pow do another one because i thought i I can't do that.

15:14I can't do that in the studio. If I make something great, like, I'll be like, oh, wow, I got to scan this and put this up on Instagram or like, you know, whatever it is. I can't be like, yeah, cool. All right, let's make another one. You know, and with Jules, it was also like I was watching him and I was like, he had this really fun way of drawing where he would draw a little bit and then he would pump his fists. Yeah. Like, yes. look at what we're doing here, you know? And they go back at it and he'd be like, you know, and he would celebrate himself while he was working. I just love this kid.

15:51I need to meet him. It's just like, and I was like, you can do that. Right. Like, wow. I bet I could do that. If no one, you know, like, what if I did that in the studio? You know, what if I got a line dance? No, it was just like, it was like learning. It was literally like learning from a little master, you know, That's what I think a real creative person needs is to love the process more than the product. Because the product someone else can take and do something with it.

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17:47Sorry, I didn't mean this to be my therapy session. Tell me how much I owe you after. But people are like, how do you respond to all things you put online? People liking them or not liking them. And literally, I'm like, it's weird. I don't even have a great answer to that question. I just feel like I'm so often consumed by like the next thing I'm thinking about and trying to work out in my head or the next conversation I'm having a parent. I'm like, that's a conundrum. Oh, what's going on? Let's figure that out together. I don't know yet, but maybe I will tomorrow. Like, I just I don't know. Like, that's just where I am.

18:18I'm not that's that's where I am in the next moment. I'll have what she's having. That's what I'm hearing. Basically, because like that. Only here. Let me be clear. That is what every great artist I've ever studied talks about is like, I, once the thing's out, it's dead. It's on to the next thing. It's dead to me. Yeah. Well, you know, we talk about executing a project. Like, well, then it's dead. Once you execute it, it's dead to you. Right. Like it's done on to the next thing. English language is wow. Wow. Okay. this has been okay next thing i want to ask you about i could talk to you forever is obsession okay i hear different versions of this from parents all the time in fact someone i remember talking to this parent for a while my four-year-old's obsessed with garage doors okay all he wants to do is drive around our city and watch them open and close and then my kids like my friends like do they does my kid have an issue is my kid this thing are they that thing how long do I let this happen for?

19:24I'm trying to show my kid there's other things, but it's just back to the garage doors. What is that about from your perspective? I think you have a lot to say about it. I think, you know, the John Baldessari, who is actually the person I stole the title for this book from, he used to say that you have to be obsessed. Talent is nothing. You have to be obsessed or you'll never make it as a creative person. Creative people are people who get obsessed and kids are creative. And so they get obsessed by things. My son loved engines. I'm not a car guy. My son loved everyone who came to our house. He would want to look at the engine and then he'd say, hey, dad, take a picture of this so I can look at it later.

20:06And he'd want me to print it out. And then he would draw the engine. And I know more about combustion engines, something I never wanted to know about because of my son, Owen. You just like expand the thing they get obsessed by. So let's do that with garage doors, because I think the impulse can be, and maybe this goes back to your beginning when you're saying as parents, like we can so easily lose touch with anything related to creativity because we're so in an up into the right optimization world. Right. And so like, we all get why it happens. Then we see this thing in our kid. Right. And I think, I don't know.

20:39I see this visual with my, my friend who has a kid, this garage door obsession. So let's say he has a road of his life and he's like stuck at garage doors. Okay. He's like garage doors, garage doors, garage doors. And I think our impulse and mine too, is we push back. We almost like build a wall, but we don't realize we're just keeping our kids stuck at the garage door. Cause like, we're like pushing back. Right. And I think what you're saying is what if the garage door, they have to be there for a little, but it's, it is the eventual kind of door to the. The door is the door. The door is the door.

21:10Okay. Not that creative at all. the door. Sometimes my metaphors are very literal, right? And what if we just follow it a little bit? I guess this is kind of my education because I went to a school that was an interdisciplinary school in college and we would take something like a garage door and we would look at it from a hundred different angles. We'd say, well, what's the sociological angle of a garage door? What's the environmental angle of a garage door? What's the design angle? So I would ask the kid, well, what do you think about, what would it be like to have a house that didn't have a garage door?

21:40why why do you think some houses have garage doors and some houses don't did you know that some garage doors don't face the driveway some of them face you know and then you start one and then you can because the answer of course is that we didn't always have cars that we pulled into our houses right so like you know you're kind of like my the thing that helped me the most as a parent is I used to be a librarian. So my first job out of college was a reference desk librarian. And the librarian you learn, the librarian doesn't need to know the answers. They just need to know what questions to ask and where to find the answers.

22:21So I was always going to, you know, I threatened for years if I was going to write a parenting book, I'd say parent like a librarian, you know, because I wrote a book called Steal Like an Artist. So the symbolizer. But to me, it was like, the more I thought of myself as a librarian, the kid comes to me, he's got all these weird interests, got all these obsessions, got all these questions. I don't need to have the answers. I just need to say, you know, I bet I know where we could look for that. And we could look for that together. And oh, you're into garage doors? Hey, you know what I found? I found our old opener, you know, or like, look, I found this manual.

22:58You know what? Grandpa, you know what grandpa did? I told him you were into garage doors. He mailed us his manual for his garage door on his barn. Let's take a look at it. And it's just about being like, so yeah, my training as a librarian, I think, really inspired me more than anything with the kids is to just think about everything they bring you is an opportunity for inquiry and curiosity and for a way for them to learn about the world literally through their obsession. because yes, you can start with garage doors. You can learn. I would guess that you could build a whole urban planning class around garage doors.

23:41Okay. We're talking about play, but I want to talk about it related to something you've said, right? And you quote this line in the book, the opposite of play isn't work. The opposite of play is depression. And I want to like, honestly like probably even change my own tone take a deep breath into that because I really I feel privileged to be let into parents lives who do tell me like every day they're exhausted they feel like the joy has gone and there's low grade or diagnosable or depression whatever it is it feels really dark and so talk to talk to me about how depression is related to play well I'm not the expert the the expert is Stuart Brown has wrote a great book on play and that's who said that line.

24:30I think, you know, to me, play is to be activated and depression is to be non-activated, right? Depression is to be the opposite of whatever activated is. And I think that play is something that lets you know you're alive. Like only things that are alive, play. And everything that's, well, plants, maybe not. I haven't researched the play of plants. See, this is a great question for a kid. Do you think plants play? You know? Well, we know that we know that trees kind of talk now, right? That there's, so that's really interesting. Is that a form of play? Do they make jokes? Yeah. And you know, these questions, by the way, are exactly the, like, this is like how children's books start or how any artist gets an idea.

25:17Like, do trees talk? You know, these kinds of questions that kids ask these naive questions. You know, there's a great it's a great book called Philosophy and the Young Child where the guy kind of talks about, you know, Socrates was really just being a young kid and asking really basic questions that everyone else thought they had answered. You know, that's what kids are so good at is in the questions that they ask, make you question your own knowledge, you know, and that's why I think they're so good at like cracking things open. Yeah, kids are kids are remarkably good at not knowing, right? Oh, yes.

25:55And not knowing is at the very heart of what I think every creative person needs. Donald Barthelme wrote a great essay about it. And he said the writer is someone who does not know what to do. And you sit with that. I do not know what I'm doing. And you sit with uncertainty. The cool thing about uncertainty is like we're in an uncertain world. and everyone's full of uncertainty right now. The really handy thing about being a creative person is that uncertainty is the very thing that you run on. Like not knowing. Because when you don't know what you're doing, that means there are possibilities.