The New Fatherhood: “You Either Sort It Out or Pass It On”

0:00There's a very specific kind of tired that comes with parenting. It's not just late nights. Oh no, it's the mental load, the early mornings, the constantly being needed or having someone sitting on your lap. And I know for me, sometimes I'll catch myself looking at my reflection and just think, this is not great. My eyes are telling the whole story of the last couple days. It's why I use Ula Henriksen's Banana Bright Plus Eye Cream. It's clinically crafted with gold-complexed vitamin C that instantly brightens tired eyes while visibly reducing dark circles, so you look more rested even when you're not.

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1:18emotional drunk draw that you have in the kitchen.

1:23This is an episode about fatherhood. Now, if you're not a father, if you're a mother, if you're a grandparent, this is still for you because there's such an interesting perspective about fatherhood in this conversation that I think will all benefit from hearing. Today, I'm talking with Kevin Maguire. Kevin has the most successful, the biggest substack on fatherhood. It's called The New Fatherhood. And now he has a book by the same name. For years, Kevin has written honestly about his experience around what happens when being achievement-oriented, when not even realizing you've kind of defined yourself by your job and your job success kind of clashes with the demand of modern fatherhood, or even clashes with your own values on how you want to show up as a father.

2:12Now, before I go further, let me just say, this is not an episode about how to be a good dad. There's not one definition of that. But I think is really important in this conversation with Kevin is Kevin and I both really see dads as the protagonist, as the driver. They're not an extra parent. They're not the substitute. They don't have to do things exactly like a mom does. And figuring out how to show up in a way that really feels good to you is kind of a new thing that a lot of fathers in previous generations weren't necessarily thinking about in the same way. I think there's a lot in this conversation that might surprise you.

2:50A way of thinking about feelings that kind of destroys the idea that feelings are soft. A way of thinking about, I'm sorry, that challenges the idea that it reduces our power. And the surprise of what happens when you share your own vulnerable story. And maybe everything you fear that will happen not only doesn't come true, but maybe so many amazing good things actually happen next. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm so glad you're here. And I remember this moment. I remember my daughter would have been about three years old. And I was at the kitchen and I was sending some emails. She was like, Daddy, Daddy, can you do this?

3:30Can you come and call with me? Can you come and play with me? And I was like, no, no, I have to do that. I have to send this email. I have to reply to this thing. all these stressful things that felt so important. And I had this realization that, you know, right now she thinks I am the best person in the world and that's not going to last forever. You know, she's 11 now and I can see the kind of like the change in that she just wants to be with her friends. And there is that moment for dads that you can be there, you can be present. And I think a lot of dads just throw themselves back into work.

4:02You know, there's so many things I want to ask you, but let's actually start with the old fatherhood. What is the old fatherhood? Just tell me what comes to mind. Yeah, of course. I think it's really, we've been following the same plan as dads for generations. And really, I boil it down to the three Ps. The old version of fatherhood is we were meant to do three things. We were there to protect, we were there to provide, and we were there to preside. We were there to be the boss over our family. Yeah. The preside, it is such an interesting, almost also there's a little bit of passivity too. I'm just presiding over and it makes me think about all these memes I've been seeing for men around different things going on in the world.

4:43Like I'm monitoring the situation, like I'm monitoring, I'm presiding. It's kind of, I'm watching, I'm not really participating, but there seems to feel something maybe important, but actually maybe that was an old job. So I think we can honor that monitoring and presiding, but maybe not anymore. But I think presiding, it really speaks as well to the old role as the that as disciplinarian. It's like you were the boss of the house. You were the man of the house and you came home, you came home from work and your main role wasn't to look after the kids. It was to kind of discipline them and like do what needed to be done.

5:15Yeah. And look, and I think before I asked you about the new fatherhood, I always tell parents, first of all, all the generations before us, like that's all had a big impact on us and what feels normal, even instinct. Like I always think instinct is what we've learned till that point. And if fathers before you and before them, before them have all done something a certain way, that's going to show up for you. It doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't mean you don't want to show up in a different way, but it's going to show up. Is that, is that right? Absolutely. And it's these, it's these narratives that we've inherited from, from our dads and from their dads and everything that's been passed on kind of before us.

5:52And I I think what we see here in fatherhood for this generation of men and kind of what I've been seeing as I've been writing for dads over the last five years is really like we have been, I think the biggest shift that has happened in fatherhood over the past 50 years is men are now present for the birth of their child. present right and you know my dad wasn't present when i was born and so many of those men weren't present and i think when you when you were there for that moment you know i remember my wife telling me after after the birth saying i don't think you'll ever see me in the same way again and i said no i won't because i saw what you did and that was heroic i called my mom like a few minutes afterwards to kind of tell her that she had another grandchild and i said i can't believe you did that for me.

6:38And I think just that visceral experience of welcoming a child into the world, rather than being hidden away and just having it handed over to you once the baby is all cleaned up and wrapped away, I think that has just started to transform fatherhood completely. Protect, provide, preside. Do we have three new P's? Are they just different letters? Is it more complicated than that, the new fatherhood? I think it's more complicated than that. It's like we're really still working it out. We're jumping out of the plane without a parachute and we're assembling it on the way down. And it's really, you know, I think there is one P that doesn't really exist in fatherhood anymore.

7:17And historically it really did, which is presence. I think when you think of the new fatherhood and when you think of the roles that dads are trying to play now, presence plays such an active role in really just like in defining who you are as a dad. Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about another P the whole time that you're talking. So I just want to put it out there. Play. how does that come into the new fatherhood well it wasn't expected for dads that's what expected to play you know there was the classic like rough and tumble dad who would kind of like come home and roughhouse with their kids but play wasn't really required but it's so it's encouraged now i think there's a reason why dads around the world all love bandit healer so much talk to me about what you're hearing from dads around so many of them doing something for the first time in their you know, kind of history.

8:05Yeah. I think, you know, this new generation of dads that exemplify the new fatherhood are really rewriting the playbook of what it means to be a dad today. And so much of that is around like, you know, just how they show up for their kids. And I think there is so much, you know, my dad was one of the, was that generation that he prided himself on, you know, I never, I never changed a diaper. And, and you think, and you, And you think, my God, my poor mom. My dad worked away five days a week. He kind of worked in construction. He built motorways. He laid cable in the ground. And he came back at the weekends and he just used whatever he had in the tank.

8:43And I think now with dads being able to be more present, they can play. They can be more there. My kids are 11 and 6. And I used to work an incredibly stressful job. I was at Google for almost 10 years. You know, it was like if I wasn't at the office, I was kind of heads down. I was in my laptop. Was there a moment of morning, a night, a 2 a.m. panic thought that woke you up? You're like, wait a second. I'm missing something that matters to me. There was this there was a realization that I think and so many busy parents face this all the time is that you try to be the best parent you can be in the two worst hours of the day.

9:217 a.m. to 8 a.m. and 7 p.m. to 8 p.m. And it's like those are the crunch pressure moments of like getting them up, getting them dressed, getting them in the bath, getting them fed. Everything is so intense. And you try and do the best parenting you can do in those tiny windows. Wow. I mean, I find myself in smaller ways saying this habit I'm in, is this a habit I chose or is this just a pattern that kind of took over, right? It seems like you did that in a very big way. Are these my values? Is this how I want to be spending my time? Is this my story? Is this someone else's story? And is it OK to kind of shift?

9:58So I'm thinking about the mom or the dad is listening to this thinking, OK, what Kevin's saying really resonates with me. I want to be more present. I also feel like I'm down on my laptop doing my work, even though some part of me or a big part of me says it's actually not the most important thing. But maybe for various reasons, I don't know if I can pick up and move. Right. I'm thinking about the dad who says, can two things be true? Right. So, yeah, what are your thoughts about that? Are there smaller shifts that you've seen dads make to just feel like they can be a little bit more present in their kid's life?

10:33You know, I coach a lot of dads and so many men come to this place where they've had a kid. They go away on paternity leave. They come back and everything feels different in the office. Something feels a little bit off. It's kind of like that bit in the scary movie where you walk into the room and something's not quite right. and the ominous music plays and they come back to work and they go hang on a second i there were a lot of things i cared about a few weeks ago or a few months ago if you get the best better paternity leave which hopefully more and more people are doing but you know it's but the the kind of like the new version of fatherhood isn't quite advanced in and everywhere but they come back and they say well if this isn't it then what is and i think untangling the sense of who you are from the job that you do is the first step for a lot of dads in order to become the best father they can be.

11:27And, you know, it's interesting. It makes me think about a core principle, kind of the good inside method, which is untangling your identity from your behavior, right? That's the whole idea of good inside, right? So for a kid, okay, my kid's hitting. In order to intervene successfully, I need to be able to say, I have a good kid who's having a hard time. This is not a sociopath. This is not a kid who's going to be in jail forever. I need to be able to separate who they are inside from what they're doing outside, not to be permissive, but just so I can understand what the core issue is and help.

11:57And what you're saying is actually for dads, if you take that internally, something that's helpful for dads separate from parenting, but how they show up as a parent, too, is I am not what I do either. Like, I am not my job. I am a good person who works at Google. I am not a Google level three, whatever the manager level is, because then I don't have any option to kind of shift. This is who I am. Right. Which is really constraining, you're saying. Yeah, absolutely. And you just, you create your own boundaries that you sit inside. And there's a really, you know, and that's what so much I've written in the book around, you know, there's one chapter, you are not your job.

12:36And it completely is around, like, how do we separate ourselves from this? But, you know, other parts where it's like, what is the work that needs to be done? So, you know, I think what I love about Good Inside and kind of what I've taken on a lot as a parent is so much of the time, the issue isn't with the child. The issue is with us and we have to get out of the way. You know, there has been so many moments in the, you know, I've been a parent for over a decade now. And there have been so many, let's say, teachable moments for myself where I've realized that, oh, what I'm bringing to the table here is all of my baggage.

13:10You will be forced to come to terms with so much that you haven't yet thought about and so many things that you've kind of put into that junk drawer, that emotional junk drawer that you have in the kitchen. 100 percent. I often think before someone decides to have a baby, the real question is, like, are you ready for everything that's unhealed about the last number of decades to come out before your eyes? I feel like people would be like, I don't think you heard me. I'm having a kid. And I'd be like, oh, I heard you. That's what it's really about. You know, like that's what and the good news there, I think.

13:43And I always say this. I think about a dad I used to see for a while. and he came in and he was talking to me about something with, you know, at that point, he's like a seven year old. I'd seen him on and off for years. And he was just complaining, you know, my kids whining all the time. They're complaining all the time. I've worked so hard. I get in this life. And, you know, we kind of paused. I heard it. And then we talked about what came up for him and different things. He just goes, Becky, one time, can you just tell me, like, I have part of my language. Can you tell me I have a shitty kid?

14:10One time. Can it just be my kid's fault. And he was, you know, we kind of laughed together. But I think the perspective that takes away the shame is I would bet on a dad any day over their seven-year-old. Like, it's not that you're causing the issue. But if you think about yourself and then you think about your three-year-old or your seven-year-old or your 17-year-old, like, it's powerful to say, it's not that this is my fault, but I am in the position of responsibility. And that's actually just a leadership mindset. I'm going to bet on me to kind of change the culture around here. yeah and i think we just don't have great role models as men we don't have great dads out there who are leading the way who are being vulnerable who are showing empathy you know even the language of emotion is centered in you know if someone is showing emotion if a man is showing emotion it's like oh don't grow a pair or if they're kind of not following the norms of the group it's like Like you're a pussy.

15:07It's like all of that, like being strong is masculine. Being kind of weak is feminine. And I think, and men are trained to see, they're trained to see vulnerability as synonymous with weakness. It's like, and if you show vulnerability, this is something that someone else in the workplace can use to get ahead of you. To kind of, someone who's more ambitious can kind of, can climb the ladder because they know your weakness. So we train ourselves to hide these things away. We take our soft spots and we just hide them away and we make sure no one can see them. And I think a big core part of the new fatherhood is like, okay, well, how can you show up?

15:43How can you be vulnerable? How can you really like, because what our kids are looking for more and more isn't physical strength. You know, my daughter, she's in adolescence. She's about to become a teenager. It's like she needs them to understand her. She needs empathy. She needs love. She doesn't need these old models of what it meant to be a dad in 50, 100 years ago.

16:11Recently, I traveled to Texas for work. And it was one of those trips where there was so much going on, which can be really energizing and really exhausting. And that's what's so great about booking stays on Airbnb when you travel. We booked a home in a really beautiful part of Austin that was so peaceful. It had this amazing porch surrounded by trees. And when you're on a busy trip, having a place like that to drink your morning coffee and ground yourself just makes a huge difference. And the other thing that helps me feel grounded when I'm traveling is when someone can help with all the logistics.

16:44When you book a home on Airbnb, you can have groceries delivered upon your arrival, which meant that in Austin, I could focus on being present instead of running to the store. And dinner, there's something really special about sharing a meal around a table, even when you're traveling. And that's especially true when you're traveling with family. Because when you book a home on Airbnb, you get that space, a real kitchen, a dinner table, a backyard where the kids can actually run around. The kind of setup that makes a trip feel less like a disruption to your family's routine and more like an extension of it.

17:16That's why I love booking homes through Airbnb. I can do the things that will help me feel grounded so I can make the most out of my trip. Your teen daughter is already worrying about a million things. school, friends, technology, and then throw a period on top of that, it can feel like a lot to navigate for her and for you. That's why I love KT by NYX period undies. They look, feel, and wash like normal underwear, but they're super absorbent. So she doesn't have to worry about leaks. Plus they're washable and reusable. So she can use them month after month. They're also fun with cute colors, prints, and styles, so your daughter can pick something that makes her feel confident.

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18:40Vulnerable emotion, presence, connection, not fixing, like just bring that alive with something almost absurdly hyper specific, just so we can talk about a real moment. Well, I mean, you know, the gestation of the new fatherhood, it began. So my son is six years old now. And so about a few months after he was born, I would take myself out. I would, you know, once he was in bed, I would take the dog. I had this sad looking basset hound. I would take him out and we would just go for a walk and I would go on my own. I would go far enough away that no one would notice. No one would know who I was, but not far enough away that I would arouse suspicion at home.

19:22And I would sit down and I would cry just to myself. And I'd cry because I didn't love my son. I didn't know what was going on. And it was, with hindsight, I feel very fortunate that it was my second child. And I knew that something was different this time around. And I was trying to find out what was going on. I was lying in bed, Googling things, you know, three o 'clock in the morning, but like, why am I sad? New dad. And I kind of came upon this, um, this notion of paternal postpartum depression. I had friends get in touch and say, oh, wow. I never realized that that's what that was. And, and actually the symptoms, how it presents in men is there are a lot of similarities, but the symptoms of how it presents in men is it pushes addictive tendencies to the foreground.

20:13So alcohol, drugs, gambling, sex. For me, I feel really lucky in that I just, I got hooked on a video game, which is the wildest thing to think about. But I just, I would sit up and stay up till four in the morning. It was a sense of, it was a sense of like having some control over a situation where I felt, you know, I really felt my son would never stop crying. And in hindsight, of course he wasn't crying all the time. He was just like, that's what it felt like to me. In doing that work, in really understanding, I think a lot about this, the Japanese art kintsugi with the broken pots. And you use the golden kind of clay to seal it together.

20:53And it's more beautiful than it ever was. And I really think about my experience with paternal postpartum depression and the vulnerability that I've kind of had to learn to share and to show, because I know it helps other dads out there. I know that the more that we talk about these things together, the better we can be for our partners, for our kids, the better we can show up for each other and for ourselves. But also, I think it's interesting. First of all, thank you for sharing that with me, with everyone. There's nothing like a story, you know, that makes us know we're not alone and there's nothing wrong with us.

21:28So I really appreciate that. And it's interesting we got on this thread and we're talking about kind of showing up for your kids emotionally because I think actually it's really significant. if we mom or dad are not developing a relationship with our own internal life, our own feelings, things that feel really hard internally for us, it's, it's kind of impossible to expect that I'm going to be able to show up for my kid. Like, right. And then I think Kevin, the thing you so beautifully always write about, and this I think is the bigger picture is when we do that, the benefit is not just in the relationship with your kid.

22:05I mean, Your mental health is going to be stronger. Your relationship with a partner, your relationships at work. Like when we work on things with our kids, it shows up, I think, in the most positive ways. Oh, yeah. In ways we didn't expect. It was like, you know what? Someone actually told me this. My manager ratings are higher at work than ever since I've been working on showing up in a different way with my kid. Is that weird? And I go, I actually think it's perfectly predictable. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Well, it's a, you know, I, this is when I talk about the transformative power of fatherhood, it's not just allowing you to be a better dad at home.

22:42It's every single, it's an unlock for every aspect of your life. Like so many dads that I talk to and I work with and they say, you know what? I've been able to find joy in tiny moments of like in that gap between when my kid is losing it. For so many men, anger is an issue, right? And it's an inherited issue. And we've watched our dads blow up and lose their tempers. And we're trying to learn how not to do it for ourselves. And so much of this is just finding that tiny sliver of space and time between reaction and action. Between the kind of thing that we feel and the next step that we take. Like, and, you know, like, and then that for me is like, when you learn to feel more, you can, you know, there's that great line.

23:33I come back to it all the time. I never forget it. And when it's, when your child is having a meltdown, they're not having a hard, they're not giving you a hard time. They're having a hard time. And for men, it's like this instant shot of empathy to the heart. You straight away feel, oh, you know what? I can be mad at this kid right now because he's like going through it. And I just need to give him a hug and let him know that I understand and I'm there for it. So many things I want to double click on. One thing, just because I think it's a really powerful slight shift, is I would actually say to someone, anger is never the problem.

24:11Anger is a completely healthy emotion. Anger is the emotion that tells us what we care about, what we need, what we want. It's the key to then self-concept and self-respect. the issue is unregulated anger, unmanaged anger. And actually learning how to regulate anger starts with looking for it and kind of befriending it and listening to it before it becomes a volcano. And so I just always like to clarify that because I said this recently, and I happened to say this to a dad and he said it really resonated. I said, feelings are information. Think about the best CEO in the world. they want information.

24:54Certain information is overwhelming. Right now, everything about AI and the workforce, that is overwhelming information. But no great CEO I know would say, don't tell me about it. Make it go away. You know, what they would say is, you know what, I am overwhelmed thinking about this, but my job is to work on the overwhelm so I can use the information wisely. And if you think about anger or jealousy in yourself or in your kid that same way, it kind of becomes obvious why feelings aren't soft or even we say they're vulnerable. It's just, I guess, but if you think about it as information, it kind of makes sense in a different framework.