Vulnerability, Courage & Fatherhood

0:00Parenting can be one of the most rewarding journeys of our lifetime. But at the same time, without a doubt, it is one of the most difficult. And one of the reasons it's often most difficult is that it can be so lonely and isolating. Today, I'm having an amazing conversation with someone who has changed what it means to be a modern dad. Joe Gonzalez is a New York-based father, media professional, and the founder of Brooklyn Stroll Club, built on the idea that dads also need belonging and community. Every parent needs a group to turn to for those moments when you're panicking or need support or can't put words to something that you're going to that's real but feels so confusing.

0:41And what he has done through Brooklyn Stroll Club is nothing less than remarkable. Joe and I unpack what it really means to be a father, what he hopes his kid says about him and the type of father he is, surprising things he's learned along the way, and really the power of not feeling alone. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Joe. Hi. So happy to have you here. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you. So let's just jump right in. So why don't we start? Just tell me a little bit about how you kind of came to this world of fatherhood, what you noticed in terms of maybe what's absent from it, what it was really like and you didn't expect and then what you did about it because it's pretty remarkable.

1:31Yeah. So I became a dad almost about two years ago now. When I found out me and my wife were having a kid, I just, it completely changed me. I was like, what am I going to do? We don't have family here. So I think for us, it was like, what are we going to do about that? How are we going to create a village for us? And I had been documented it online and TikTok and just really kind of documenting how I was experiencing what she was going through as well. And just kind of being open and vulnerable about that. Then when my son came, I'm like, okay, this is a lot to experience. You know, I'm, she's going through healing.

2:08She's going through so many different things as well. And so for me, I was like, how do I get community around? I need people who understand this. Like, this is something I've never experienced before. A lot of my friends maybe didn't have kids, aren't married, you know? So I'm like, put a, put a call online. I'm like, Hey, where, where do the dads hang out like I'm just like I'm in Brooklyn there's got to be dads around here somewhere and kind of the consensus was we don't know you do it and or there was like a Facebook group or something that didn't really feel inviting so for me I pretty much made a call out to hey do you guys want to meet up on a random Saturday and come to find out like dads really were open to that as well so like 20 dads came through my son was about four months old and And from there, we've just started building this community called Brooklyn Stroll Club and really didn't expect it to grow how it has.

3:00But I think for me, what I found is just like community not only is needed for me, but for others as well. Yeah. And just your one two line description of what Brooklyn Stroll Club is or maybe what it is underneath what people might see. Tell me a little bit. So I would say Brooklyn Stroll Club, it always changes as far as I'm changing as well. But for right now, I would say Brooklyn Stroke Club is a community for dads to feel seen and supported while giving a new voice to modern fatherhood. OK, there's so many things I want to unpack for what you said, because you went online and kind of said, like, where the dad's at, like, where the dads go?

3:38And it seems like, is this right? You got interest, but no answer. Like everyone's like, there's no I don't have an answer, but I'm also kind of asking that question. Is that what happened? Yeah, it was kind of like, oh, well, I don't know. and it was a lot of moms that were just like oh I mean maybe my husband has done this or you know we have this Facebook group it wasn't it didn't really point me anywhere yeah that felt like where I belonged you know what I'm saying so do you think dads or let's even say dads to be because it sounds like you were thinking about this during the pregnancy are also aware like I have this need for community was community always been a big thing for you before fatherhood and then the absence of it around this new identity was obvious to you?

4:20Yeah. I saw originally kind of my background as I come from the church. So the premise, a lot of that is community groups. And some of those fall short sometimes, you know, when it comes to faith, you can kind of go back and forth. Like I'm involved. I'm not, I'm kind of contemplating where I'm at in life, but fatherhood, I'm here forever. So I think what I kind of got inspired was like, Hey, I really want to create a group where I can evolve and grow in. And that doesn't kind of fall apart, you know what I mean? Or I don't have to go back and forth and contemplate this. Like I'm in fatherhood forever, regardless.

4:56So having a community that empowers that was important to me. Yeah. And look, I think moms and dads are woefully under-supported in general. I know you and I have talked about that. But there probably is a lot more for community for new moms. Are you in a new moms group? And are you in this group when you're pregnant? and do you have your text thread? And have you found that that is something that moms have a little bit more built into their life or more optionality than dads have traditionally had? Absolutely. I think moms really are great at community, great at building community, great at understanding what their needs are, what they're expecting, what they want in friendships.

5:32I think women are way better at just building strong connections with women. And I think that's the kind of thing that we've wrestled with or struggled with as men. there's some stats by my friends, like Mundo, really, they have a stat that's like 58, 55 % of men between 25 to 40 have not one person that they feel close to. So I think that - Wait, say that again. So 50 % of men between the ages of 25 to 45 don't have one person they feel close to, which is interesting because if you don't have somebody, one, as a friend to you just by yourself, how can that affect you when you become a father and you're actually somebody's closest friend, you know, or as a partner to your partner, you know, how can that affect you and how can that affect the way that you operate in the world?

6:25And that's just something I think we've answered or tried to figure out as we create the community. Yeah. You know, a principle I think about a lot, and it's just feeling loud in my brain right now, is we can't change the hard, we can change the alone. And the transition to parenthood is really hard. And I think sometimes we focus on trying to change the hard. It's not that hard or here's how to make it easier. But if you think about not changing the hard, if the hard just is the hard because life has hard things and instead you focus on weight, maybe the problem isn't the hard. It's just hard plus alone.

7:01And what if I actually focus on the alone piece? It's actually not to say it's so easy to change, but I actually think That part is we have a little bit more agency in changing that. And that's exactly what you created and transitioning to becoming a father. What if I just didn't feel alone every Saturday? What if I put my baby in a stroller, walked around with other dads? I don't know if it's probably not structured conversations. Who knows what we talk about? But I'm literally no longer alone in this brand new identity I'm taking. Yeah, having a place where you can, our online community is where you can actually just talk to daily and then having a meetup monthly.

7:35Like, yeah, that's not going to cure everything. That's not going to cure your loneliness. But that's creates the conversation and starts a movement. So for me, I'm hitting dads on a Saturday morning. Like, hey, I've been up since five. I need to hang out. I need to get outside with somebody who else who else is like feeling the same, who is up, who is tired, too. To me, it feels like I'm not doing it alone. Of course, I have my partner, which is always the support for me. But being able to have another dad to experience, hey, your kid's going through this. my kids going through this, I feel a little bit more less alone in that element.

8:10Yeah. Look, I don't want to be shy about naming this. The transition to having a baby can be tricky sometimes in a partnership. And sometimes you have a little tiff or something's going on, you're feeling distant and actually having someone to talk to about it helps you vet, helps you feel understood, maybe helps you develop a new perspective to be more productive with your partner. Our partner can't be the only person we're talking to when we're having a hard time with our partner. It's too circular. No, absolutely. There's dads in the community that I look up to how they handle things. Or I'm like, hey, I actually wouldn't handle it that way.

8:42And it helps me kind of regulate what I'm doing and how I'm expressing myself, not only to my partner, but also to my child. So it's like, hey, I love the way that you're talking to your wife or how y 'all experienced this together and y 'all went through it together. Or you know what? It's a hundred. There's, we have meetups with a hundred dads. Not everybody handles things well, But being able to regulate those and understand where I want to take things, where I want to kind of leave things from other people and other experiences is helpful. You know, I'm curious what you think about this. I'm not even sure of my own answer, but I'm just going to put it out there.

9:15Do you think most dads or most men, when it comes to something that's hard, have they been socialized to think, I just have to make this better or pretend this isn't happening, rather than maybe I could talk to someone about this or experience this with someone? Yeah, I would say so. I think dad's, I think the male, uh, maybe stereotype is just internalize a lot of those things, uh, find the solution on your own. Um, and I think like that's been seen in society and been seen in how men kind of operate maybe on isolation, uh, in politics in general and government and things like that. Like when men get power and have those things that maybe aren't addressed those, I think those kind of play out a little bit differently, but your family needs you in those elements.

10:05And so to be able to like process those things, I think is really important. Yeah. What, what was it like you became a dad? Like what, what images come to mind or feelings or thoughts? I think completely changed me. I think what I, when I first saw my son, I had this amount, immense responsibility that made me feel like I'm the sole responsibility. Of course, my wife was there. She had this whole, she had this like tough process of giving birth. But, you know, even in that moment of seeing him, it's like, she's healing. She's trying to figure out, get better. And I'm like, okay, what am I doing now?

10:39And I think that responsibility of, can I provide, can I be there for him and unlearn all the patterns that maybe I learned in the past? Like, what can I do for him that's better? And I think a lot of not only what can I do for him, but also what can I do for myself and how can I change the dynamic of maybe what he's seen and what he's going to experience kind of fell on me as well. Yeah. You know, I read something you had said in another interview. It makes me think about what we're talking about here, that so much about fatherhood isn't just about raising your kid. It's about re-raising parts of yourself.

11:12Yeah. I've been in a place where I, everything means more. How I respond to him, how I respond to my wife, it matters. And I think I've really been trying to take those moments one at a time and not just like think about, hey, these are things that I need to address overall. Of course, I need to work on this and this. But being able to respond to my son out of love, out of care, patience, like there's elements maybe that my dad maybe fell short in that I want to give to him in a way that kind of heals not not only him, but myself, you know, and I, and I think that seeing him and how I've handled situations sometimes is a healing journey for me as well.

11:57Being able to him, him to have a tantrum or him to lose his cool and me to respond just out of love or really out of patience. I kind of make myself proud in those elements in those times, you know? I mean, I think you're getting to the heart of what parenting secretly is all about. Right. I think so many times, like, we think having our kids are going to heal us or our kids will naturally heal us. But our kids trigger old stuff in us. Oh, yeah. Kind of the opposite. You're like, oh, I guess I didn't resolve that thing. And I think we can either look at that as, oh, something's wrong with me or I'm destined to repeat the past or through this interaction with my kid, they're kind of like showing me a mirror or shining light of something that if I can work through this, it's going to benefit them.

12:41But it's going to be maybe huge for me, even in my non-parenting areas of life. And it sounds like that's the journey you're on. I mean, especially him being so pure and just a raw emotion of what a human is. Like he's just experiencing things for the first time. So being able to see that in a way that's like, hey, he doesn't know how he's responding to me. He doesn't know how he's acting in some areas. I do. I'm 30. I'm 33. Like I understand my responses. And so I, it definitely has more of a responsibility to say, how can I respond better? He's, it's his first time. It's not my first time. And not that I have, I definitely have grace in how I respond and how I react, but can I be better the next time that he responds this way?

13:29And can I respond better to my partner the next time as well? You know, tell me a little bit about, about your dad. Like you, what, what do you remember growing up? My dad, he worked hard. He was a hard worker. That's one thing I learned about from my dad that I'm really proud of is that he could provide, he could make a way with whatever, whatever he had, whatever resources he could make. I think what I saw and why the community is so important to me is my dad was really isolated. I think he didn't have friendships. And honestly, I don't think he had the time to have friends. And I think that kind of put him in some isolation moments.

14:08And I saw that in patterns, maybe that he reacted or maybe that he expressed himself in different areas. And so I think for me, it was just important to figure out how do I get around people, take the good parts of my dad, take the good parts of what he's been about and be able to channel it to something better. And, you know, and that's what he would want. That's what our parents have done for us. You know, they, for me, my dad wanted me to be in a better school, wanted me to be in a better life. He was one of seven. So, you know, he had a lot going on and a lot of experiences with his siblings, with his family.

14:43So of course, like it was just a different upbringing in a different time, but he worked so hard so that we can do this. And so I'm grateful for those moments, but I'm also challenged in how I can operate and how I can be a father. And what you're naming is something that I think is the key to showing up in a way that feels good as a parent is none of this is about blaming our parents. We can say my parent was doing the best they could with the resources they had. Yeah. And there are things I want to do differently. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be my fault, my dad's fault. Like I always find fault to generally be an unhelpful framework.

15:18We're just like pointing fingers at someone, which generally isn't a way we learn. Yeah. Yeah. And I've had to go through that. It's a constant mourning sometimes of maybe what I didn't experience or what I wish I would have had. Yeah. When I see it in my son or when I can give it to my son, that's the healing element for me where I have blamed my dad or I have my parents. And, oh, I didn't get to experience this or even now, like being grandparents and things like that, maybe what my son is maybe missing out on or not experiencing. It always evolves, like how I was treated, how I wasn't, how maybe my son's going to develop.

15:53And that always wrestles with me internally. But I can only control how my wife and I manage and how we experience and create those experiences for our son. I wonder if you could talk about a specific moment with your son that makes you kind of know in that moment, like I'm giving him something that I probably could have used but didn't get. Can you share a specific moment? Yeah, I think yesterday, actually, he was just at a place. I mean, I don't know if it's he's getting teeth, he's getting his molars. I don't know what it is. It could be a, you know, a plethora of things that he's dealing with.

16:29I think this moment yesterday, he was going back and forth. He just wouldn't go in his wouldn't go in his stroller. Just was like, we were trying to go to the park. I'm like, hey, I'm making a decision for you. Like, we're going to the park and we're trying to do something. You're not happy. I think overall in that moment I was very frustrated like just like kind of not my full self but I think I was really proud of how my wife and I handled that where we didn't like we didn't like react we didn't do it like we didn't take it out of control we just really took him to the park and found a solution rather than just like hey we need to get out of the house right now because this isn't probably the best place for you let's go somewhere else let's make an active decision to do something.

17:13And I think I was proud of myself rather than just being like, hey, you know, just stop crying or hey, you know, let's, you know, you're okay. You're okay. Like telling him, you know, being able to validate his feelings, but also being able to find a solution for him without, without compromising how he's feeling. Yes. And so what can feel natural in those moments? Let's just act it out as some version of maybe I'll act one out. You could act another one out. It's like, stop crying. You're being ridiculous. We're just going to the, we're going to the park it's not such a big deal no absolutely something like that or what's another kind of you feel like just easy quick vomit your own frustration yeah you're you're good you're you're okay you're you're okay you don't need it you're okay we're gonna go get this like you're you're okay i think unvalidating how he's like he doesn't know that he's upset like i think one of those things like he doesn't know he's frustrated he doesn't he's just experiencing what he feels in the moment like telling a one-year-old they're okay is like never helping the solution you know yeah so that's an experience for sure and so you're saying in that moment showing up and I think this is a duality that sometimes we don't even realize both are possible because I talk to this you know about this with parents all the time where it's like okay so let's say your kid's having trouble getting in the stroller you could say there's something about getting in the stroller that doesn't feel good right now or oh this is a hard moment keep it simple and then parents will say to me oh so then you're just not taking them to the park I'm like whoa no yeah i am taking them to the park and the idea that you can validate and see your kids current emotions as real and you can still put them in a stroller when they're crying yeah you can still get out of the house or i can still say to my kid oh i know you don't want to go to bed right now while carrying them to their bedroom and that's also mind-blowing it's also wild they're locking their legs, not going in the stroller, they kick something over.

19:07You're like trying to get a snack. You're trying to get the bag on. It's like so many other elements to that happen where you're like, those are the moments that I'm proud of when there's so many external, my dog, the dog is kind of going back and forth. Maybe somebody rang the doorbell. We're just like, it all sometimes feels like 15 random things happening at one time, but being able to regulate, Hey, my goal is to take you to the park. We're going to be here. It's going to be okay. You're going to be, you're going to be fine. Not actually, but just knowing internally, like that's going to, we're going to be good.

19:36Like, I think we're going to be good if we get here and then it's good. Sometimes it's not, he's still, you know, fussy when we went back and forth, but at least we made a decision and didn't just react out of emotion.

19:56tell me for the dad or the mom listening i think a common thought is okay but so you're just telling your son it's okay to freak out about getting in the stroller like he has to know that's not okay behavior you don't want to reinforce that like that's a i think a very traditional mindset Right. So does that thought ever come up for you or when you hear that from moms or dads around you? How do you think through that? I think at first that makes sense. Logically, when having a toddler, you understand I'm playing the long game like I'm I'm here to I'm here to not only just get him to the park. I'm here for him to feel loved the entire way to the park, whether that's whether I had a long day or whether I didn't.

20:41Not only am I here for him to feel loved, I want him to see my wife as loved, that my wife, that I took time for her. I grabbed her a water. We slowed down and we didn't let feelings dictate how we were going to operate in our day. We acknowledged them, but we were able to find something, a solution that helped us all get in a better place. Because if he's in a bad place, it could all slew into all of us getting into worse places. So we, you know, we're taking care of him and he's our priority, of course, but we're also taking care of ourselves. I just want to be your back. Something you said is so powerful and your language is so powerful.

21:19Like I'm playing the long game, number one. And I think about that a lot with parenting. Yeah. Whether you're kind of playing the right now optimizing for ease in this moment game. I could turn on the TV. I could, you know, I could do whatever. I could easy. I can. Yeah. Yeah. Give them something. Go on my phone or leave the room. That's easy. Those are easy. They're easy. or I guess I could scream at my kid and he'd become so scared that he'd get frozen and then I'd pick him up and put in the stroller. Right. But whether you're optimizing for easy in the moment or the long game of, and what you just said, it's not just about getting my kid to the park.

21:55I want my kid to feel loved on the way to the park. That's really profound. And loved doesn't mean giving in, right? But loved means I see you and we can stay connected. You still have a parent and a leader and a coach in your hard moments. When I think about their long game and your son is going to be, you know, I don't know, let's say 16 and about, you know, 14 years, right? There's going to be a lot of moments when he's away from you and something really hard is going to happen. And his body is either going to remember, like, this is going to get me in trouble. This is going to get met with more fear, more distance, more judgment from my dad.

22:39Or this is something my dad is going to be able to be present for. He's still going to see me as a good kid, even if I have a hard moment. And he's going to help coach me through this. I mean, that literally makes all the difference at age 16. A friend of mine, he has an 18-year-old. He just went to college. I was asking him the other day. I'm like, what did you like, how are you processing like him making his own decisions now? And he said something that I thought was so profound. He was said, we made the things that were important when the stakes were low. So when the stakes were high, they understood that everything mattered.

23:16So for instance, like, you know, dating somebody or the decisions that he had, those are a little bit higher stakes or, you know, what school he's going to go to and those things like that. But they made things that were maybe lower stakes of like disrespecting, talking. Everything mattered to them when the stakes were low. So when they were higher, they could actually, you know, know that they can trust their parents, that they're present, that they're going to be there no matter what. And that everything mattered to them. And I just thought that was really important. I think that's beautiful.

23:45And I know you and I were talking about these toddler tantrums, right? Oh, yeah. I'm taking the good inside class right now. I was telling you before we got on, I'm like 30 minutes in. I'm trying to work through it. But my wife and I were like, we have to take these. And I love your process in it and just being able to validate and see really, really everything I'm repeating is just regurgitating what you said on on Good Inside on the app. And so I just appreciate your voice in that because it's really helpful because it goes quickly from being a baby to a toddler. It was so interesting. Like I know when you ask me about what I remember about my son, it just everything he existed and now he's a human.

24:24And that's what like I remember these beautiful moments of existing. Now I'm like, oh, I'm teaching him now. He's learning things and he's seeing things. And it's just such a different. And I want to let anybody listening or watching know people are generally surprised that tantrums start so early. It is usually before two. Terrible twos, that like phrase that we all think. Honestly, in the one year, even 11 months, that's when toddlers start tantruming. So that's totally normal. And it's powerful to just know all a tantrum really is, is a surge of feelings without skills to manage feelings. Because kids aren't born with skills to manage feelings, but they're born with the feelings.

25:02So that's all a tantrum is. And the reason I love this long game perspective around how we deal with tantrums is it's true. When our kid is 16 or 26, I don't think telling them they can't have ice cream for breakfast is going to lead to a tantrum. Like, I hope not. But your kid is going to want something and not be able to have it. They're going to get fired from a job. They're going to be jealous of a friend. They're going to be mad at someone they love. And being able to learn when you're one, two, and three, I'm allowed to have feelings. By the way, my parent will stop me from hitting. All behavior isn't okay, but all feelings are.

25:42I always think it's just like the ultimate power move and emotional privilege growing up. And that's what you're teaching during a tantrum. Yeah, I was saying the other day, I was talking to the dads and my son bit someone and I was embarrassed for myself. And I know that's maybe weird to say, but I felt, and it was interesting because all of what happened was with him and dealing with how he was feeling. And that happens, emotions happen. But I was like, why am I feeling this way? It was such an internal perspective. Not only was his tantrum what happened with him, but it also happened inside of me too.

26:17And I'm like, why am I feeling maybe embarrassed or sad that this happened as a parent? And I thought that was interesting to feel because not only is he feeling something, I'm feeling something too. How he operates in the world, I feel it too. And it matters to me as well. And so I'm like, is this a reflection? Is he going to be like this forever? Is he going to do this? Is this going to happen? And, you know, I think all those things go through your mind. So being able to like calm myself as well during that moment is important as well. Seriously. I remember talking to it was a dad who was seeing me in my private practice years ago, and he'd always come in talking.