You Are the Technology That Builds Your Child's Brain

0:00There's a very specific kind of tired that comes with parenting. It's not just late nights. Oh no, it's the mental load, the early mornings, the constantly being needed or having someone sitting on your lap. And I know for me, sometimes I'll catch myself looking at my reflection and just think, this is not great. My eyes are telling the whole story of the last couple days. It's why I use Ula Henriksen's Banana Bright Plus Eye Cream. It's clinically crafted with gold-complexed vitamin C that instantly brightens tired eyes while visibly reducing dark circles, so you look more rested even when you're not.

0:34And I really appreciate that it's that simple. One small step in the morning that helps you feel a little more put together before you start taking care of everyone else. Because this isn't about perfection. It's about feeling like yourself in a demanding season. If you want to try it, use code DrBecky30 for 30 % off the Banana Bright Plus Eye Cream at ulahenrikson.com. The other day, I had a really existential question that was just living in my head. And I ended up bringing it to a couple friends who met me with some version of, wow, kind of not the topic I thought you were going to talk about at lunch today.

1:10And I said, what are humans for? What are parents for? and here's what i mean by that we are living in this ai filled world right ai is all over and ai seemingly can do everything and honestly do everything very efficiently very quickly our output is more than ever but one of the things i think about all the time is how efficiency is kind of in contrast with relationship building. I'm a big fan of two things can be true, but here I think it's one or the other. I know for me, when I'm in efficiency mode, my relationships aren't in a great place in that moment. When I'm in relationship mode, especially with my kids, I'm listening, I'm tolerating the tantrum, I'm figuring something out with them.

1:59In some ways, it's quote, inefficient. Well, how does this kind of duality between our need to be efficient, our need to be in human relationships? How does it get changed in the age of AI? And what is going to really matter around raising our kids? I'm so excited to have Dr. Dana Susskind on the podcast today. She wrote the book Human Raised, and she is exploring in this book how connection and curiosity and lifelong learning, the things that make us human, will be impacted in the age of AI, especially with our kids. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside.

2:41Okay, I want to ask you something that sounds like rage bait, but I actually mean it very seriously. Can a parent be replaced by a machine?

2:51Dr. Dana Suskind:Short answer, no. A robot cannot replace a parent at all if we want children to grow up to be able to relate to other humans and navigate the human world. Okay, so tell me what's under that. Because you and I, like we've talked about some of this before, where in this AI world where seemingly anything you're going through, you can go to this machine, to this pattern, you know, this pattern machine that can spit out something that feels so human and so filled with empathy and seeing you and support. Or I don't know, I just keep thinking about this. Like what is happening to the parent-child relationship?

3:38And so when you say no, it cannot be replaced, what are some of the themes you're seeing around raising kids in an AI world?

3:46Dr. Dana Suskind:Yeah. I mean, I think really it goes back to how children are built, how early brains are built, and the critical importance of attachment and connection. and that messy human connection that is friction-filled and not efficient that allows children to learn, not just to learn, but learn to be human and have human relationships. And when you replace that with a frictionless AI agent or social robot that is always there, always telling you you're right, always making you feel that you're the center of the world, you teach children that you're the only one that matters yeah and and you never learn how to connect with others can you speak to attachment a little bit it's a topic i love too but i think sometimes people aren't sure what does that mean attachment is that attachment parenting attachment theory like how what is attachment for a parent and a child you know i have to tell you right writing this book on ai in early childhood has completely opened my eyes to the power of attachment yeah You know, I'm an implant surgeon.

4:55Dr. Dana Suskind:It was always about the early language environments for building language and literacy. But really now understanding that early attachment to your caregivers not only allows you protection so, you know, the helpless infant can grow and develop, but it allows you to learn to regulate, to explore the human world. And traditionally, and you're the expert in this, there's secure attachment that is the foundations for all relationships. There's insecure attachment that is not responsive and, you know, is not conducive to having relationships. And now I sort of view AI as providing artificial attachments.

5:39Dr. Dana Suskind:You know, this frictionless early experience that never teaches you what it is to be human and have relationships. Yeah. Okay, let's talk about friction because I know you and I have talked. I agree. Friction is so important and friction is wildly inconvenient, right? At the same time, both are true. But you're saying friction is such a key part of human attachment, right? Just to make sure anyone listening knows what we're talking about. What are some examples of friction that even if it's inconvenient, like matter, there's value in it? Yeah. I mean, as simple as when you're super young with your parent who, you know, is engaging with you and gets distracted and hopefully not looking at the phone, although I've done that, you know, gets distracted by something else and then comes back and repairs the relationship, that misstep and that child learning that, you know, you can be loved, you can have secure attachment and it be with a human that has a friction filled, messy relationship.

6:42Dr. Dana Suskind:I think friction, you know, in learning how to be friends on the playground, right? The studies have shown that it's really not being just aligned with somebody who always agrees with you that builds strong friendships. It's the ones that have missteps, repairs, the, you know, you didn't invite me to the birthday party, but then you can repair that and become friends that is so, so powerful. Okay, so I want to rewind a little bit because before, you know, kind of writing this book, you were a pediatric surgeon, right? Okay. And so you would put in cochlear implants to kids who had been born deaf.

7:21And you learned something about attachment and the power of relationships there. So can you speak to that a little bit?

7:28Dr. Dana Suskind:Yeah, I'm probably one of the most unlikely people to be doing this type of work. I'm a cochlear implant surgeon. And as many of your listeners know, it's an amazing piece of technology that allows a child born deaf the ability to hear, to talk, to connect. But it was actually my experience early on in seeing the differences and outcomes of two different patients who all looked like they had the same ability to succeed after the technology, had parents who loved them, who wanted the best for them. but had wildly different outcomes. One of them would be, you know, learning to talk on par with their hearing peers and others same time out would barely be able to communicate.

8:08Dr. Dana Suskind:And it was that experience of seeing these differences and trying to figure out what can I do about that that brought me into this whole world of, you know, the importance of the early years, the importance of attachment and human connection for not only building children's language and literacy, which is sort of how I got into it. But understanding that attachment, that connection is the foundations for all of that. It is sort of the conduit, if you will. And yeah. And so attachment connection kind of becomes an amplifier or a multiplier. Yeah. Yeah. Say more about that. Yeah. What are the first of all, brain development?

8:46Dr. Dana Suskind:I mean, I'm a neuroscientist is incredible. Those early years, as you know, 85 percent of the physical brain is built. It's sort of like building a computer hard drive. Slow down. Say that again, because I think people want to, 85 % of what by when? So 85 % of the physical brain is built in the first three years of life. You see, unlike any other species that comes out with almost adult size brains, that's why dogs can feed themselves immediately. Horses can stand. Babies have brains are only one third the size of the adult size. But in those first three years of life, there's rapid amounts of growth, up to 85 % of the physical brain, 100 billion neurons are being connected by those early experiences, by that early human connection.

9:34Dr. Dana Suskind:And it is just a phenomenal period of time that's the origins of our brilliance. That is why humans up until now, AI may change that, have always been the most brilliant and creative of all species. And it's that early attachment with a caregiver that actually brings it to life. It is phenomenal. Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about how often, and I hear this especially from, well, I hear this from dads too, but I hear it from a lot of moms who stay home with their kids. They say, what'd you do today? I did nothing. Oh, I did nothing. I got nothing done. Yeah. What would you say to that? I would say you are the most powerful and important person, not just for your child, but for all of us.

10:18Dr. Dana Suskind:we all benefit as a society from strong, healthy starts. I mean, we're, we're all the product of it. And yes, if I had a magic wand, I would have them be the ones who are at the top of the food chain. That's right. You built a brain today. So thank you for your service. Okay. So I'm thinking about, I don't know let's say my a 12 year old okay who I don't know was left out on the soccer field or told he's not good enough to play basketball or you know something hard happens at school he comes home and this is something I'm hearing from parents like I'm not always the best at being there for my kids sometimes I react I give advice I know I'm not supposed to listen I'm supposed to listen and not always so good at that.

11:09And my kid can kind of go to his computer these days, type something in, I don't know, ends up feeling soothed. Like the outcome is kind of the same. Does it make a difference? Does it matter? And if so, why?

11:26Dr. Dana Suskind:That is exactly my fear. You know, we know that some 70 % of teenagers have already connected with AI companions. It matters, number one, because computers don't care, right? They don't know your child. I mean, we've seen what happened with social media. Like, it can look on the surface like it all makes sense, right? Social media should have made us felt more connected and less depressed. And in the end, it made it more. And in that same way, these new AI agents that can respond empathetically, we are social creatures, will want to connect. They will have unintended consequences in ways that we can't even imagine.

12:17Dr. Dana Suskind:Removing the fact that you are the parent. You want to be the one that they come to. And it's not always going to be that way. But that connection starts much earlier. Right. I mean, that's the basis of sort of this book that we, you know, we make those lifelong attachments from the get go. And so those unintended consequences, can you speak to those a little bit? I think that is the one consistent thing about technology. And I'm not at all anti-AI and not anti-tech. Right. I'm a cochlear implant surgeon. I have seen how technology can unleash human flourishing. But there is so much that we don't know and understand about not only the technology, but ourselves as humans and how we connect.

13:02Dr. Dana Suskind:We can understand it at sort of a, you know, surface level, but there's much we don't understand. And because of that, not being intentional in how we unleash this new technology that is unlike any other technology we've ever seen. Right. All the other technology has been a one way street. Right. TV, screens, et cetera. But this technology is responsive. It can mimic human interaction so much so that as young as six months, a baby will respond physiologically like it does to a human, to a social robot. And so we need to be very thoughtful and intentional. I come from the world of medicine. We don't unleash vaccines and new medications.

13:46Dr. Dana Suskind:We make sure car seats are tested before we allow a population to have them. So, you know, an AI companion and agent sounds sort of benign, but it is anything but that. Yeah, it's interesting when you said that, I think about just the way our world thinks differently about physical safety and emotional or psychological safety. Right. We don't put car seats out in the world. Medicines, those are all kind of in the physical safety kind of category. But the impact on technology is physically safe, maybe. right um but there's there's no appreciation of the emotional danger and i'm i'm right there with you right and just i'll share some of the ways i'm thinking about it i'm curious if it's in line with you um and just to share with anyone you know listening as well so the reason i think about attachment so often is right obviously it wires you know your brain in the first couple years but the way you attach to your early caregivers right in some ways all those experiences in childhood forms a foundation for what you expect from other people going forward and what you're capable of going forward, right?

14:53And so what range of feelings feel normal for me based on what went on in my early years? Is it okay for me to feel sad? Can you feel mad at people you love? When you're struggling, will people be there for you? And also as relevant to this conversation, when I'm struggling, do I expect the other person or thing to be there all the time?

15:15Dr. Dana Suskind:100%. I mean, those relationship maps, as you said, they follow us through a lifetime. I mean, we can all talk to that. And I think you get to a really important point of skill formation, right? There's so much discussion about AI in the ether. I mean, in every realm, I'm very little in this realm, which is why I'm so thankful to have this discussion. But so much of that discussion is related to people who already have those skills, right? Yes, they're having relationships with an AI agent because it's easier, but they know how to connect. We're talking about children, humans, you know, who haven't yet built those skills.

15:59Dr. Dana Suskind:And the implications for that are significant. So when everybody talks about AI in the future of workforce, AI in democracy, AI in the future of our species, I'm like, wait, shouldn't we be talking? Then we should be talking about this a lot.

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18:33Okay, you have a rubric for judging a piece of AI technology. DETECT, I love an acronym. Who doesn't? So can you walk me through it?

18:42Dr. Dana Suskind:Yeah, I mean, you know, I tried very hard with this book to give practical frameworks for going forward because as a researcher from a university, that is not my natural state. And so, you know, what are the things that parents should be thinking about? You know, detect stands for first is what was it designed for? Is this tech? Do I need this technology in my house? Is it used to interact with my child or does it support me? I think that's a first and most fundamental question. The design. Was it ethically trained? What I mean by that is many people realize that these large language models are built with large amounts of data.

19:22Dr. Dana Suskind:That data can represent children and include them or not. Most of them don't. There is very little data that includes children. So if you're going to have a toy with, you know, embedded with an LLM that's been built with adults, well, is that really what you want? T is troubling. You know, are there troubling aspects to this technology that have been seen? You know, you know, we've seen sort of like with social media, does it, is it sycophantic? Is it anthropomorphizing? Is it isolating your child? You know, what are the things that you need to be looking out for if you do bring this into your world?

20:00Dr. Dana Suskind:E is evidence. You know, I'm a researcher. I, you know, I believe in the power of science to allow us to understand what works and what doesn't work. What does it say it works? What are you know, or is it just all marketing? C is confidentiality. What you know, what happens to your data? What happens to your child's data? That's a really important question. I mean, you know, especially if it's talking with a plush toy, what happens to that audio? That's biometric information. And lastly, I think is really important is what is it teaching my child? And it's not just like education. What are the values that it's imparting?

20:41Dr. Dana Suskind:And so this is, you know, it's not meant to be, you know, onerous, but really to give you a quick hand way to say, do I really need this in my home? And sort of a quick way to look through it. Tell me about that T, the teaching. What is this teaching my kid about our family values, right? What's an example of that? Yeah. Well, we were at an event yesterday where someone talked about learning that her child was using an AI agent that was actually related to the Bible, right? And, you know, she didn't know about it. What did she, you know, really her understanding of, was it teaching in line with their values, you know, as Catholics?

21:27Dr. Dana Suskind:I mean, but there are so many other examples. You know, Siri used to say, you know, does it get your child used to saying, you know, play this music without saying please? So there are many ways that values can be imparted. Those are just sort of simplistic ways. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Some practical questions here. I think about, you know, kids I know are getting really adept at chat, clawed, studying, right? Okay. Here's everything I learned. Make me a practice test. Or here's my essay. I wrote it. Like, point to the weak topic sentences, right? So we're not talking about cheating. I'm not talking about platerism.

22:08But make me a test or help me do, you know, a critical review of my writing. What are your thoughts about that? Yeah.

22:15Dr. Dana Suskind:I mean, look, I think if we use this technology as a tool, we try not and we don't cognitively offload. It can be really effective. Now, you know, I would want to understand more how it's being used by a young person and how young and what sort of oversight, because what can start off as, you know, a very focused use case can very easily sort of be a slippery slope, either in a deeper connection or cognitively offloading. You know, who, you know, my daughter who's in college talked about, you know, she's very worried about her own writing skills because, you know, she's a great writer, but started getting more and more dependent on this technology.

23:05Dr. Dana Suskind:And so she finally had to say, I've got to stop this. And that's that's the risk. I think that we need to make sure it's, you know, a focused use rather than. Yeah. Something so broad. Yeah. And I think what you're saying is. Tell me if this is right. there are legitimately helpful uses of AI. And also, I mean, you didn't call it this, there could be a gateway drug nature to it a little bit like, okay, it's starting helping me make tests to study for math. That's great. And then all of a sudden, you know, yeah, I'm talking about how I'm stressed. All of a sudden I'm talking about how, you know, I'm the only one without a boyfriend.

23:43All of a sudden, it's just all of a sudden I'm in an emotional relationship that started with, you know, building math quizzes for myself. And so I think one of the hard things as a parent is we don't know exactly. My kid's on the computer. A lot of these kids, they have computers for school, right? They're using it in ways they need to. They're uploading their homework. They're using it to make a, you know, a sample quiz and then it can morph into something very different.

24:08Dr. Dana Suskind:Yeah. You know, in some ways, AI today is like old time baby formula. This chemist Liebig actually created baby formula with, you know, proteins, carbohydrates, everything that they knew that, you know, they thought milk needed for a baby. And so he created this and started feeding it. It ended up, you know, children were dying because they didn't, they hadn't identified vitamins. And so these kids weren't getting it on surface level. It looked right. Just like on surface level, you can have an AI companion that is listens to you and is responsive and it feels really good, but there is something missing.