Ani DiFranco: Fierce, Free, Creative & True

0:00So what happens when fierce conviction meets musical genius and revolutionary love? when anger and activism transform into something more nuanced, more powerful, when creative abundance meets community and impact. For over three decades, my guest, Ani DeFranco, has stood at the intersection of music and activism and independence, charting her own path while inspiring and touching the hearts and minds of millions. And today's conversation explores how real impact, expression, and transformation requires both fierce dedication and also tender compassion and what it means to stay true to your values while building bridges across divides.

0:42An industry icon and Grammy winner, Ani has been a fierce voice for feminism and equality and also the mother of the sort of the DIY music movement. After founding Righteous Babe Records at 18 years old, she blazed the trail for independent artists releasing 23 albums, including her latest, Unprecedented Shit. In this conversation, Ani shares vulnerable insights about her journey from a young revolutionary activist and solo artist to someone working to foster genuine dialogue and community at scale. And she reveals how she approaches advocacy differently, leading with humanity, and even how her experiences of being canceled transformed her approach to activism.

1:22And she also offers wisdom about maintaining independence while creating meaningful artistry and impact and connection. and she shares the surprising story behind her latest album's innovative sound and what she now knows about creating lasting positive change and by the way we are now airing all episodes on video on youtube as well and this one was really special we filmed in this sweet little indie studio right here in bolder colorado just before ani headed out on stage and the musical vibe just makes for a really special visual experience so we'll include a link to the video in the show notes if you're curious, go check it out.

1:58So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

2:08Really good to be able to spend a little time with you. It's not lost on me, the fact that as we sit here, while this episode will air at some point in the future, we're recording on September 11th, 9-11, some 24 years after the events in New York. and I, as we were just talking about, I'm a recent Colorado person but spent my entire adult life in New York was there living in Hell's Kitchen when this happened. I have very, very deep emotional memories from that day and from the time around it. New friends that went to work that day and never came home. I found myself working, volunteering 10 feet from the pile the next day handing out safety equipment to first responders and not understanding how anyone could see or breathe there because it was that toxic.

3:05I'm wondering, and this day always affects me, 24 years removed, no longer 2 ,000 miles from the city, but I wake up in the morning and I feel it, and I have remembrances of it. I'm wondering if you have any particular remembrances of that day. Sure. I was actually in Manhattan as well. I was in Midtown conducting rehearsals for horn players because I wanted to add a horn section to my band. Because I had been on tour with Macy O 'Parker, who was one of James Brown's, you know, he was the anchor JB horn for all those decades. and then I just became addicted to the sound of a horn section. So we're in New York, and I guess what stands out for me are this sort of ash-covered, zombie-eyed people migrating uptown, just watching them walking with their briefcases, you know evacuating the scene on foot in the middle of the deserted avenues you know and all of the other people just standing staring at the cloud of smoke at the bottom of the avenue and we didn't know what to do like everyone we didn't know so we just went to the rehearsal space where all the auditions were supposed to be happening.

4:49And lo and behold, some of these horn players showed up. You know, a musician needs a gig. And even on a day like that, some people came.

5:08So it was actually very, of course, surreal for everyone. but beautiful because a handful of strangers made their way there miraculously, though every subway and bus was shut down. And we met them and processed with them and then played music. I mean, music is so healing, you know, so there we were in real time just using it to process and try to stay connected. with something life-affirming. Yeah, I can't imagine being in that room, you know, and, you know, playing. And the fact that people showed up in the first place, it's like there was something inside of them that called. And I know you say, like, a musician needs a gig.

5:58And yet on that day, you got to imagine there was another reason they decided they had to still show up. Yeah, I mean, I think us musicians are pretty subliminally invested in using music to get through. So yeah, if anything makes sense, it's to just go play music while figuring out what else is to be done. I know in the weeks and months after that, it sounds like you were there as well. I remember wandering around the city and, you know, for anyone who knows New York, this is a place where everyone's head is down. They're moving really fast. You know, if you try and have a conversation with a barista or someone at checkout, like everyone behind you is giving you the dirty looks, everything slowed down.

6:50And there was a sense of compassion, sisterhood, fellowship, that I had never experienced in the city before. It lasted like around six months or so. And I thought, you know, what a sobering, but also just really deeply beautiful experience it was. And then many years later, I had a conversation on a podcast with Valerie Corr, who I know you know, and her whole philosophy around revolutionary love. And she opened my eyes to the fact that my experience during that window was not universal. That there were people also wandering around New York City who didn't look like me, who are absolutely terrified for their lives every time they step outside their door.

7:36And that was kind of a revelation for me. I'd never really thought about that. Yeah, I went on tour immediately. Obviously a scheduled tour and everybody else had canceled their tours. Everything was canceled, you know, nationwide. people didn't want to leave their houses. But I felt like it was my mission to not cancel and, again, just go and process with people in real time. The audiences were very light. I guess traveling, I had a similar experience to you. You know, it felt like even like I had been a public enemy of sorts with my punk appearance, my sort of, you know, ruffian kid and, you know, security people eyeing me and luggage being gone, you know, and do you have a joint in there?

8:43You know, you delinquent. And suddenly it did. I felt that same palpable, like we don't care about your joint anymore. We don't. You're you're now one of us. I felt included almost for the first time in that way. Had to have been such a weird feeling. Yeah, yeah, kind of, you know, I guess that, you know, the revolutionary love soldier in me resented it. Like, oh, now I'm on the team because I'm not brown, you know. Whereas yesterday, you would have given me heck, you know. I mean, what do you do with that? Just be aware of it and not ignore it. You know, I always, I used to joke. I mean, I wouldn't make this joke anymore because I don't want to be seen as conflating the pushback from society that a sort of a young white punk, anti-establishment punk gets with what people have been doing.

9:59color get, but I, you know, back in the 90s, you know, I had green hair or purple hair or, you know, piercings and, you know, tattoos or whatever, back when that was not everywhere. And so I would be sitting in the row of chairs in the, you know, getting pulled over at every customs checkpoint along my journey. So anyway, just, yeah, to be aware of the hierarchies and the subliminal structures of society and the differences of experience from whatever gifts of perspective your journey gives you, you know. I mean, to be out on the road also at that point, like you make this choice that says, I'm going to keep going out.

10:46When a lot of people that you described we're just like now we're tapping out like we're we're shutting down plans for we don't know how long but we just um and your impulse was it i mean it's interesting to me that your impulse was the exact opposite and i'm part of my curiosity is is that because you needed it or you felt like the people you want to be of service needed it or maybe yes i think i think it was my will to be of service. I think that's the larger part of what's kept me on the road for all these decades, especially as the years have worn on, you know. I mean, it's, which is not to say that it doesn't also feed and inform and inspire me.

11:36But it's hard to, you know, it's hard to keep leaving whatever my home is and keep, I mean, I was going to say packing and unpacking, but for many, many, many years, I never unpacked. You know, it's just, that was a waste of energy. even at home you just keep sifting out of the suitcase because soon enough you're gone again you know we were talking before we were on mic about the dysregulating effect of constant movement you do acclimate to it but uh i just it's my it's my form of service i guess you know to show up for people because I've been made aware since the very beginning what it what it means how it can help others to heal and grow and find themselves let's talk a little bit about that very beginning ish area um you have a daughter who just recently was about the same age that you were when you went to New York, who just went to New York City as well.

12:50You know, you born and raised Buffalo, deeply in the music scene there, and eventually make your way down to New York. And you're getting a lot of really nice traction. Not because it's being handed to you, but because you're working your ass off. You know, writing, performing constantly all over the place. And as you said, from the very beginning, for you, this was never just performing, it was never just music. There was a deeper mission. There was a sense of service and activism that always informed everything that you did. And I'm wondering where that comes from for you. Do you trace that back to parents or to the culture of your family or anything else when you were growing up?

13:27I mean, my parents, definitely, obviously, for me. They were both progressive people. They were both immigrants, had an immigrant mentality. I mean, which is to say that they really did not take this country for granted and what is available to you, what is all that this country has to offer, you know, so I recognize that now as a real specific and somewhat unique perspective in this country. I think the native born are often not nearly as impressed with America. But, you know, giving back was always the mentality in my house. and you know including you know it sounds funny to say but it again it feels very unique now that I've looked back on my family upbringing like paying taxes paying taxes is universally in this culture seen as a burden and to escape every dollar of paying your taxes is sort of the goal and it's not questioned, that mentality.

15:09But my parents, you know, I think I wrote it in a song once, they were happy to pay taxes. Like they felt this is, yeah, this is how it works. And it works, it's amazing how, you know, that the government, You know, of course, there are many people that the system does not and has not worked for as well. And there's a lot of legitimate perspectives, but that immigrant gratitude was a gift to me, I think. And just loving what America is striving for and wanting to be a part of that, wanting to contribute to it. That was definitely a goal I inherited. I didn't devise it myself. So I noticed you used the word what America is striving for, not what America is, which sounds intentional.

16:12It's a process, and it's very imperfect. But I think, yeah, that early perspective has confirmed that giving up on it, opting out, because it's messy and it's imperfect and it's infuriating and it's devastating at turns, is never going to get us out of here. you know I've been voting you know there's another you know these seem like you know my parents especially my mom was active on many levels she was she was an activist and but even these simple things that don't necessarily fall into activist category but just fall into the category of citizen, which, again, I think a lot of Americans are so disillusioned and detached from the idea that the government is of and by and for the people and exercising that incredible power of the vote that we are given, you know, is not something that most embrace, you know, but voting, my mom took me to vote and she campaigned for candidates she believed in, you know, I can picture myself, you know, in a circle of women licking stamps, you know, Or the sponge and the going door to door, you know, trying to inspire people to vote for some progressive woman who is trying to get in the game, you know, or, you know, that's something that I've been working on ever since trying to convince especially young people that because it's imperfect and because it's unfair, you know, doesn't mean that giving in to your disillusionment or performing your awareness of the unfairness by sitting it out is necessarily a viable solution.

18:37I mean, it is interesting, that last part especially, performing your awareness. I feel like we see so much of that these days. it's sort of like I'm going to perform something in lieu of actually taking an action where my voice is going to be counted in a more meaningful way. And not that any action I want to discount. If you believe in something and you want to stand up for it and say it, yes, do it. But I often wonder whether sometimes we're doing that in lieu of taking a more concerted action that's actually really going to move a little more. Not just to our own detriment, but to the world's.

19:21To the world's. I think we have a stark double standard for each other on the left than we do for our opponents on the right. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. This goes beyond politics. This goes to pretty much so many different points of view across all people, across almost every, and any aspect of life that matters to us. It also touches into the earlier conversation around Valerie Carr's work. The whole notion of revolutionary love is, is there a way that we can approach people that we see as opponents, having opposing points of view, and in some way, shape, or form, step into that conversation from a place of empathy and compassion and that's that's what you know like your album that you know really building on her work that she offered out to the world in her book um it's an invitation that i think a lot of us not alone we're like yeah wouldn't the world be so much better if we could do that and yet it is so hard and again political divide is one thing but these are just divides across almost anything where we could disagree these days.

20:39I feel like we've learned how to have strong beliefs and hold them fiercely. But we haven't learned how to look at another person who believes the exact opposite and say, look, I can't imagine a world where I agree with your point of view or your beliefs.

21:02But I can still see you as a human being worthy of life, worthy of attention, worthy of being heard as much as I want to be heard, you know, which is part of the invitation, but a brutally hard thing to actualize in day-to-day life. Not only is it hard to stay curious and to stay compassionate with your opponents, if, you know, you look around now, it seems like it's become almost too hard for us to do that with our allies, with our community members. So how can, you know, Valerie brilliantly articulates, you know, this idea of revolutionary love in all her work. And, you know, she talks, she sort of breaks it down into three stages of the work, right?

21:58So first, you know, you have to achieve self-love, right? You know, in order to give it, you have to give it to yourself first. This is the really tricky and elusive wisdom. Which may be the hardest. Yeah, right, right. Just at the end of the day, right? But, you know, start, start. Yeah. I think that in my subconscious way, I've tried to follow that process, which is why when I encountered Valerie and her words, it was like just this deep, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. This is what I'm trying to do, too. Thank you for showing it to me so that I can understand it better myself. You know, just in the writing of my song, say, you know, support yourself because the world is not necessarily doing so.

22:49Like, say, you are okay as you are. This is your story and your perspective and your place in the universe. And it's as legit as the next guy. And then find your community and learn how to love them and work with them and be with them and make each other stronger through community and through those bonds. And then, when you've done that, when you're safe and you're in community and you have what you need, you can then go into the third phase of that really hard work of face your opponent and try to take everything you have and everything you've learned within yourself and within your community and apply it to your opponent.

23:42But we need to back up. we need to back the F up and learn how to even be in community. It's like we're out there raging against the intolerance of the right, and we're so intolerant towards each other's differences. You know, community doesn't mean sameness. You know, it's not, we are not a monolith. We have differences. And if we can't work those differences and still work with and see each other and embrace each other in those differences, how can we demand that of the other? And how can we engage with our opponents in any useful way? And it's almost like then how can we feel safe enough to be able to then show up to people that we perceive as being opponents to us and actually listen?

24:51Again, not necessarily with the intent of being persuaded, but just open our ears and listen. And if we don't feel safe in our own hearts, and then if we don't have community where we feel safe also, we're never going to show up outside of those bounds and actually be genuinely present and curious to anyone who sees the world in any meaningfully way different than us. Yeah, I mean, it's been so many years now for me that I have this acute awareness within me that, yeah, when I'm facing the opponent and trying to engage, who I'm afraid of is my people. that in my efforts of trying to engage and trying to help grow or heal and do that for myself and hope that it's contagious somehow, I'm going to make a mistake of language or approach in a moment that's where my people are going to come after me because that has been the pattern for a long time.

26:07and that's the deepest, most debilitating fear that a human being can have. It is so, you know, fighting the patriarchy from the beginning and feeling all that pushback and all the, you know, whatever, Just being called a man-hater and a this-er and a that-er and being pushed to the side and pushed down and called all sorts of things and having the sort of all the carrots snatched back and, you know, and becoming a sort of public enemy number one sort of feeling amongst the broader culture. or that never hurt me. I mean, in any meaningful way. You know, of course, it did, but not even approaching the way that it hurts when your own tribe kicks you to the curb.

27:14That makes you want to kill yourself. and these days we are as ready to kick our our family and friends and community members off the planet as we are any of the greatest evils you could imagine and I find myself in this the tightest spot I've ever inhabited trying to be just trying to be I am more self-censoring now than I've been in my whole life. It's coming from inside the house. It's coming from inside the house. We all know that phone call is way scarier. You know, and I wonder part of what's going on also, part of what you're feeling on things, so many people are feeling also is there's no tolerance for quote mistakes.

28:07Yeah. So like if you want to try to say something that you believe in or try and take an action that you feel is meaningful, even if it's to try and bridge a gap. and you make a misstep. You know, there's so little tolerance now for us to just try and realize, oh, I actually did something wrong. I caused harm. I'm sorry. Like that's on me. I was trying to do the right thing, but I caused harm. It's almost like there's a one and done mentality. It's like, no, no, no, no. Like you are now in purgatory for life. Like you're canceled. And I feel like if there's no, if there's no space for attempt and redemption then we'll just stop trying yeah and I feel like that's where so many people are now and also you know I think our definition of harm has gotten a little broad

29:05you know I heard somebody say recently or read some can't remember where but people are conflating being uncomfortable with being harmed you know so yes we absolutely need to be able to make mistakes and I've made so many and at this point I feel grateful that some of them were made before the internet you know when a mistake doesn't live forever and always everywhere. But also, one person's mistake is another person's not mistake. And there are legitimately differing perspectives about what's the right way to say this, or what's the right action right here, or what's the right perspective on this.

30:02It's just the idea that it's okay to have differences. It really is actually essential. And that uncomfortableness of navigating those differences is also okay. It's part of the process. And being so sure of your way, and so sure that the other's way is wrong, I think can be, again, maybe, is maybe the biggest problem that we're facing here. That's, of course, my perspective, you know, just trying to be an engaged person on the left. I think a lot of us are feeling, I think no matter what your point of view is, or your political affiliation, your personal affiliation, whatever groups you feel like you're aligned with or not aligned with, it's almost like everybody is feeling that in some way shape or form right now and it's it's you know it's it's we're really having trouble seeing the human beneath the belief and acknowledging the fact like simply because you exist as a human being on the planet like you are worthy of some level of dignity you know even if you see the world completely differently for me and I vehemently disagree with you and you vehemently disagree with me.

31:21It's like, by the end of the day, like we're part of like one larger fabric of humanity. And there's like, to me, like dignity is a birthright. And we've lost that thread in a lot of ways. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. I mean, it's interesting to me when you're, you've been touring for 35 years now, something like that. Yeah. Plus or minus, I would imagine the experience of touring and being in relation to audiences and communities has changed profoundly over that period of time. So you sort of have like a front row seat to how people come together and how the vibe, the energy changes and shifts over time.

32:11and you yourself have changed. You know, you can't be doing this from, you know, like your late teens, you know, like to your 50s and be locked into the same person. I guess you could, but it's not, you know, wouldn't be saying much about, you know, like your own personal just evolution and growth. When you think back to sort of like 18, 19 year old Ani and who you are and how you show up and what you care about now, do you see really meaningful differences or do you see it's like oh yeah yeah oh yeah you know and i actually you know uh i look back at you know youthful the youth the energy of youth is so valuable and so important in making change um and but it's also extremely arrogant you know So extremely, you know, and so of course, that was true of me as any young person.

33:12I had a lot more of what I was just talking about, where I was quite sure that my way is the right way. And I could see how everybody who was doing it wrong was doing it wrong. And also, you know, just on a sort of deeper, sort of more energetic, before all the ideas and the philosophies and the stances and the tribes come into it.

33:40just even carrying ideas about hierarchy of people, you know, that I think I've done a lot of work to divest myself of. It's ongoing work, obviously, to not put yourself above anybody ever. But on this same flow of conversation, I was canceled on the internet once in a big way, and it was devastating to me physically, emotionally, every way. for years it was years of recovery and I never fully you know I never recovered in that oh I can still do the things I used to do but one of the very I think valuable ways that it changed me is that, you know, I feel like I experience things in this world and in my life as sort of visceral, energetic.

34:55I can almost picture the sort of energetic stamp of a moment. And that moment for me was like having this huge, huge, like many, many, many people pushing down on me, pushing me down. You're bad, you're bad. And they pushed and pushed down and they're, you know, I was beneath them. I was, I was far beneath. And they, you know, there was, you know, that shame, shaming. And it was such a visceral experience and it was so potent. And And from that, I am much more hyper aware of when I'm interacting with somebody. And I mean, you know, to just be vivid about it, like, you know, a junkie on the street with no teeth and, you know, and saying some, you know.

35:58when I feel that thing in me where I'm putting myself above this person or somehow in my mind or within myself, I'm pushing this person down. I feel it now. I feel because I was on the other side of that equation in such a striking way when I put myself on, you know, above anybody else. I'm aware of it and I start working to shut it down, to get bigger in that moment. Like this person who's just jumped into my path and wants something or wants to engage in some or whatever. It's like, turn that thing off. That's a toxic thing. Don't let that live in you. I know one of the things, and if you sort of follow your music, your presence over time, over a period of decades, you know, there's always been this balance of, I don't know if this language is going to be right, but fierceness and sweetness.

37:16You know, like there's a fierce conviction and there's an also like an invitation to be included. and almost from the outside looking in it looked like in the very early days the fierceness was here and the sweetness or the kindness, the joyfulness even was here and it's like over a period of time they're slowly rebalancing a bit does that land at all? Yeah, I mean sure I think though that if you don't have space to exist in the world within society there's a certain amount of fierceness that's appropriate 100 you know so even just in my experience of of my personal experience of oppression in terms of being female or maybe being queer You know, those were, you know, and certainly you can just go on and on from there and fierceness is appropriate.

38:28And I think, and the fact that it would outmatch your sweetness when you don't have what you need to be is just a rational. yeah so but but again like you know i feel like following valerie's you know path um or the way she articulated her vision of how you do this revolutionary love stuff that's what i was doing i was fiercely trying to elbow out room for myself and my community and that work that was that was the work to do at that time. You know, each of us has a different role to play in this work of revolutionary love, and our role changes as we change. So once I did become safe, and, you know, to a degree where I had enough room to breathe, then I can bring in more of the tenderness, more of the humility, more of the porousness that wasn't appropriate in an endangered situation.

39:45Yeah, and maybe my analogy was off in that it's not a seesaw where it's sort of like one side goes up and the other. Maybe so you can hold on to the fierceness. Yeah. And slowly over time, let that other side rise up to meet it, you know, where they like one doesn't have to go down. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Well said. We're having this conversation also at a moment where. So you started your own label. 88-ish from what I remember. 90. Yeah, I guess 90 officially. But yeah. And so it's always been just deeply important to you to have independence in this industry, like where you've really just carved out and your own path and created a path for so many others.

40:35does the mission that led you in those early days to want to start Righteous Babe your own label largely in the early days for you and then over time bringing people in who oftentimes you know the larger industry it wasn't a voice they were interested in supporting and you're like no this voice needs to be heard um has there been evolution just in certainly the way that you look at what you've created at Righteous Babe and what it's there to do it was always about community first and about sort of coming from the outside into culture and trying to, you know, poke some holes in the, in the edifice, you know, and, um, so even before, back when I was the only Righteous Babe artist, um, the dream was the same, that I not be the only and that it be a place of refuge for others like me who are trying to make a career in music, but it's not pop music or it's not a saleable commodity, you know.

41:44And so over the decades that has been realized, and I think more so now than ever, which really does my heart good. Yeah, there's a real, real concerted effort at the label in community building. And so that's not just me to every artist. Like, you know, of course, it's very helpful for me to bring an artist out on the road with me, you know, and share the stage and, you know, stand in front of my audience and point at them and sort of use my networks or my team, but also each with each other, you know, that's, that's sort of the new driving sort of ethos at the label is, you know, can we make a community that I could even step out of or evaporate from or that still can be a supportive place for other artists.

42:55So, yeah. Yeah, I think there's been a lot of evolving and stretching at the mothership over the years. And, I mean, the whole industry has changed so much over that time also. So you have some in great ways and some not so great ways, you know, but it's interesting to see you kind of like really sustain with this deep conviction to supporting voices, your own in the early days and now more, who don't check all the boxes that the mainstream industry would be like, oh, hell yeah, like we're all in on this. and all along the way you're creating music you're creating movement you're creating community you're also creating art you're creating things that go out into the world and move people in deep ways I was literally before our conversation a couple two days ago hiking I'm on a trail in the front range of the Rocky Mountains it's 7 ,000 feet I have some of your music in my ear and I normally don't listen to anything but I just want to catch up on your music because I'm sitting down with you.

44:02And your song 32 Flavors comes in and so I'm listening to it. My heart rate softens. I feel my eyes just kind of soften and a minute later I realize there are tears rolling down my face. These aren't tears of sadness. Tears of recognition. Tears of awakening. And

44:26it was interesting because I was wondering as I'm like, oh, this is really beautiful. And I'm wondering if you have a sense like what it's like to be on the other side of being able to create art that goes into the world and moves people like that. Like, do you feel that being the one who creates that for so many others? I'm more and more aware that I am one of the others. I'm you know on one level yeah I'm standing there singing but on another level I'm standing there listening and that was the whole game was to heal and it doesn't matter if you're the singer or the listener the music is the thing right so yes I know that experience myself and that transformation.

45:23And I just feel like I finally arrived at this place where I thoroughly understand in myself that, I mean, even to hear you use the word creator. Yeah, so maybe on one level I created this song. But as I get older, I don't see it that way as clearly. What is is becoming more and more clear is that I, you know, the word gifted really, really connects with me now because I feel like I was not a creator so much as a receiver. I was given gifts. I was given gifts from somewhere else, from across the veil. I was given gifts from spirit. my guides people were very generous with me and gave me things that I could use to help heal myself and lo and behold others but I feel like I'm as innocent a bystander in this process as anyone you know I remember years ago sitting down with the author Steve Pressfield and we were having a conversation about where the music exists.

46:42Does it come from within us or does it exist out there and it comes through us? He's very much of the belief that it exists out there. And our job is largely just to open to it, to show up on a regular enough basis so that when it wants to pour into and through us, we're there for it and we're largely transcribing. Yeah. Well, yeah. Again, these things don't need to be framed as mutually exclusive. Within us is out there. Out there is within us. And going in is how you make the antenna go up. It is simultaneously going deep inside and ending up in the vastness. You wrote a song, If You're Not, 2010-ish, I think.

47:30Okay, yeah. And there's a line in there, if you're not getting happier as you get older, you're fucking up. Does that land with you now also? Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, even when I, again, when I wrote it and when I sang it, first sang it, it wasn't thoroughly of me. And it's like, it's not something I want to hear any more than the next guy. Because I don't always feel like I'm getting happier. The process is not linear. But I still deeply believe it, or this message that sort of I was given, you know, in that sense. like yeah actually um you know i think just always increasing your level of gratitude you know that's you know happy is a funny word but you know then what i mean you know what i mean you know it's inner peace then content yeah your most recent album um unprecedented shit um isn't it a really interesting departure you know for years you know it sounds like your process has been largely okay it's on in a room guitar or whatever the instrument may be working on stuff largely producing your own music um and putting it out into the world like sometimes collaborating but often it's still like largely in charge largely um you made a really interesting decision to collaborate in a really substantial way and also invite some really different sounds than I've heard come out of your work in the past.

49:20I'm curious what was behind that. Well, even sort of out there on my own in my little tiny world trying to make records where I'm not just the singer and guitar player, I'm the recordist, the mixer, the producer. Within myself, I was for years wanting more collaboration, wanting, you know, and I can hear my often feeble attempts at bringing the sound of the modern world into my Luddite art, you know, because machines, for instance, are such a part of our daily life now. And we live in this world of machines and devices and, you know, it's almost like we're as like hybrid species now, sort of cyborgs.

50:17And this reality seemed to just like evaporate within my art or within my recordings, you know, then it was, I mean, I guess instruments are machines, an old form of music machine. But really drawing the modern world that I'm living in, in its presence, into my recordings was something I was attempting on my own. But I don't know all these machines. I don't know what they're called, and I don't know where to get them, and I don't know how to use them. and I don't even, I tried for a lot of years to be that guy, even just learn how to use a compressor and an EQ and a, you know, let alone all the effects.

51:14But now the world of machines has grown and diversified and, you know, there's just all this insane stuff out there available to those who are living in that world. So finally I was like, I'm done trying to get there on my own. Let me draw in somebody who actually is young enough and able enough that they're living in this modern world and can bring machines to the party. You know, I don't know. It's just an instinctual thing. I certainly, it's just as legitimate to say, no, I'm going to keep it really old school. but I think that this new record unprecedented shit is a study in contrasts you know because there's a lot of moments on the record where it just is a voice and guitar sometimes maybe just a voice and a blurping sound you know so it's there's some really basic stuff happening and then there's some really expansive and modern stuff happening but so yeah sometimes within the same song yeah right yeah yeah so that was the that was the collaboration that i was hoping for so bj really brought it i i was so curious i've heard you say that the way that you develop this and tell me this is right is you kind of did the music first and you laid it down on guitar and then your voice and sent it to him to sort of like do his thing um i'm so curious like what the difference was between those early tracks that you sent him and and what you got back from him, and were you kind of like, whoa.

52:52Yeah, some of it took some acclimating on my part, where the guitar, for instance, is de-emphasized on a lot of the moments on that record.

53:12And subliminally within myself, I consider that half my voice, right? So it's like, wait, what? yeah um so sometimes i had to take a beat and just be like okay all right why not why not you know and um people were uh i knew from conversations i was having when the record came out they were you know sometimes the guitar was eliminated sometimes it was turned into a whole other sound you know and people so this sort of murky keyboard that starts the record no that's my guitar it's it's actually all my guitar all these sounds which is the cool oh that's wild you know bj lives in a spaceship you know i mean seriously if i could show you a picture of his studio it's just like nasa or something but more colorful you know like what are all these so those are all just manipulated guitar yeah yeah for the most part like he really did take the raw materials i sent him and you know make you know decoupage or whatever he was like he just using them to create is like found sculpture very different and i i i loved it i was like this is really interesting and different and cool and it also like it kept the essence of you but you were still front and center the last song on the album um i think it's the last song the knowing um which really landed for me um you know and this is a song which basically says underneath this and this and this and this there is a knowing um that other people might not see but you know like this is this is true for you so if i were to turn that back on you and say like underneath Ani, the musician, underneath Ani, the parent, the performer, the public personality.

55:17What is the knowing? What is the deep truth in you? What bubbles up? I mean, that, you know, we are, I am, and we are one with source and with each other. And we're actually, you know, it's funny, all this talking we did about opponents, because as I get older, I'm more aware that there's actually no such thing as an opponent. We're all actually on the same side. That's the bummer. That's the deep bummer. Our lack of recognition that we actually all come here with the same purpose. We're united. We're on the same team. And we're just trying to move the needle towards unconditional love and compassion.

56:16And we're teaching each other about this goal, about this united purpose in brutal ways, but we actually have the same purpose. And some of us are doing better than others, and some days better than other days. But yeah, in this age of identity, you know, I do worry about how much our investment in our individual identities and stories and labels are in the way of the recognition of that oneness and that united goal. so that's yeah the knowing is possibly my favorite song on the new record because it it sort of encompasses everything I've been working on internally and moving towards

57:14in this phase of my life which is just trying to stay in that awareness that even the most brutal people in my life are here to help me achieve that goal, and I them. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So, last question. In this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase, to live a good life, what comes up? I think having something that you're really inspired to do and being free to do it. and then having people and other beings that are not human being connected just being in your purpose and being connected in a sentence thank you hey before you leave if you love this episode of safe but you'll also love the conversation we had with zoe bookbinder joined by anna defranco and nathan brown about the Prison Music Project, a powerful collaboration born inside New Folsom Prison that became the album Long Time Gone, produced by Ani and featuring songs written with incarcerated and formerly incarcerated musicians.

58:31You'll find a link for that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, share it with just one person.

59:04I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.