Harness the Power of Deep Listening to Transform Your Relationships | Emily Kasriel

0:00Jonathan Fields: So what if I told you the simple act of having your phone in your pocket even turned off is preventing you from connecting with the people you love most? And that's just the beginning of what's getting in the way of real human connection. We're living in a moment where everyone seems to be shouting to be heard, yet genuine listening has become almost extinct. and the cost, fractured relationships, deepening divides, and a profound sense of disconnection, isolation, loneliness, even when we're surrounded by people. My guest today is Emily Casriel, an award-winning journalist and former BBC executive who spent over two decades exploring the art and science of deep listening.

0:40Jonathan Fields: As a senior visiting research fellow at King's College Policy Institute in London and previous visiting fellow at Oxford, Emily has developed a fascinating approach to listening that's being used everywhere from corporate boardrooms to conflict zones to just personal communications. Her new book, Deep Listening, offers a powerful framework for creating genuine connection, even across our deepest divides. And what we explore in this conversation will change how you think about pretty much every interaction in your life. Emily shares the surprising research about why having a phone nearby, even when it's turned off, fundamentally alters the quality of your attention.

1:15Jonathan Fields: We talk about things like why walking side by side often leads to better conversations than sitting face to face, or how strategic silence can transform negotiations. And she reveals touching stories about using deep listening to create just profound connections with everyone from family members to perfect strangers. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

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4:05Jonathan Fields: And even when you do, I've had so many conversations with people where they feel like it's just this superficial thing. Nobody really goes deep and opens up to what's really going on. How did we get here? I think you're so right, Jonathan. I think that so often when we listen, we are performing the act of listening. We're preloading our verbal gun with ammunition, ready to fire with our own ideas, with our own questions. We interrupt. And as somebody who used to be a serial interrupter, and I still am an interrupter, my kids will say, Mum, you're supposed to be a great listener, for goodness sake.

4:45You know, we often are doing that because of all the pressures that we feel on time, on being efficient at work, on delivering outcomes and on providing solutions. And actually, the research evidence is that men often are likely to come up, more likely to come up with solutions when they listen, often solutions which don't really take into account what the speaker has shared than women. And we also, I think, you know, we're motivated often by really good intentions. Like we think our role is to help other people with a solution, or we feel that our role is to cheer someone up. So when our kid comes back from school and says, you know, mum, I had a horrible time and the teacher was always picking on me.

5:30We say, oh, I'm sure that wasn't quite right. I'm sure perhaps that was just the way you felt, but maybe the teacher was, had a really busy day, or she was also picking on other kids who just didn't hear. And of course, that kid just doesn't feel heard. They feel dismissed and they go, oh, and they leave not quite knowing, not quite making sense of what's happened, but not feeling heard. Whereas I think it's, you know, there's so much that we can do differently.

6:00Jonathan Fields: I mean, if we unpack that a little bit, you know, the pace of life, I think, for sure, is contributing to things. And as you say, a lot of times, you know, the lack of deep listening, it's not a malicious intent type of thing. We're not trying to cause harm, or we're not trying to annoy somebody or show them that we're better. It's just life is happening really quickly around us. Or they come to us and we think, well, my role is to get them to a solution. So let me get just enough where I think I have the solution and then jump in and provide it. So it's not ill intent, right? But at the same time, I often wonder, and I wonder if you've seen this in your work and in the research, has the state of listening changed sort of like over the last generation or so?

6:42Jonathan Fields: And it feels to me, even in my lifetime, things are different. And I often wonder what the role of things like technology, media, social media, political life does, like how it plays into that. We did do research actually with a more in common NGO and YouGov in the US. And we asked people, do you feel that people aren't listening because they're distracted by their phone? And two in three people said yes. And we found that people who were always online are much more likely to feel that no one ever listens to them. So I think that digital distractions inevitably play a role. And it's because of that pressure.

7:24And of course, all the money and resources which go into our phone keeping us distracted, keep at these apps enticing us. So, I mean, I feel personally, the more pressured, the more tired I am, the more likely I go to my phone, it knows how to entice me. You know, it knows what are my soft spots, rather than be in the moment and being present, whether that's being present with my own feelings or being present to the people around me.

7:53Jonathan Fields: I mean, when you think about the phone also in particular, and I've seen research in the past on this where even having a phone on a table turned down changes the quality of your attention or having a phone in your pocket changes the quality of attention. So a lot of us think, well, like we're doing the right thing here. You know, we're putting it away. We're putting it in our pocket rather than entirely leaving out of the room. But it's almost like it just consumes a little bit of our cognitive bandwidth, just knowing that it's there. And it kind of keeps us from entirely tuning into who's in front of us.

8:24Jonathan Fields: Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes total sense. And I certainly know that for myself, if I liberate myself and decide not to take my phone when I go out for a walk, for example, I'm able to feel a sense of freedom, even though I feel enticed to check it when I come back. And I also do have an elderly mother that I want to keep in check of. And a lot of people have kids or other urgent things that is the reason why they say to themselves and justify why they need their phone. But I also know that when the phone is there, even I can see it now. And I've actually turned it off on this call because I didn't want anybody to phone interrupt.

9:02It had such a pervasive drag. And I think, you know, in a bit about the eight steps of deep listening, one of them is about being present. And I think external distractions, digital devices are such an impediment to being present. But I do think that by practicing presence in the moments when we don't need it can allow us to be present in the moments that really matter, like the moments when we're listening to someone.

9:28Jonathan Fields: I remember seeing research by Arthur Aaron a while back that was actually popularized in a famous New York Times Modern Love piece. And he's the researcher who developed what became known as the 36 questions where he would take perfect strangers, sit them in the lab for 45 minutes and have them ask progressively deeper questions of each other. And there was nothing else to do. and it's interesting because when you create these artificial environments like that it seems like people are able to tune in but the minute you take them out of that environment my curiosity is always what happens like once we it's fascinating to be able to create this in a vacuum but we don't live in a vacuum like we live in the real world yeah you're quite right we do live in the wild but i have found from people that i've worked with on deep listening so that's people all around the world.

10:19It's from boardrooms. I've worked with Pearson's. I just did a podcast with McKinsey. There's a lot of interest about using deep listening in the workplace. I've also worked with the British Council in Latvia in Lithuania, just after the Russian full-scale invasion of Ukraine, where the societies are really divided. People have a lot of worries on their mind and a lot of antagonism between people who think differently to them, because it feels as if their very survival is at stake. And yet, even in those contexts, people were able to learn to listen in a deep way and then engage profoundly across difference with people who believe differently to them.

11:00And in fact, I did a big project with 1000 people in 100 countries with the BBC and the British Council. We recruited people in a really diverse bunch of people. In fact, the biggest countries represented were New Zealand, Malaysia, UK and Iran. A mate of mine runs a BBC Persian service, so she was able to recruit a lot of people on Telegram, which is the social media app people use there. And what was really exciting is that even in that real world environment, it wasn't in a studio, it was virtual, that people were able to learn. And it was over six hours, over three weeks to practice deep listening, to learn about deep listening.

11:41And actually, I thought I'm not doing something at this scale without getting proof to see if it actually works. So we reached out to the Journal of Applied Social Psychology and they set up a control group. And then we compared the people having the conversation in a control group with people having these conversations about subjects. They disagreed the most vehemently with each other with the real conversations after this training. And we found that people felt safer to express themselves and genuinely understood. They felt more connected with their partners, even despite the fact they were discussing these very divisive topics, including, for example, is social media good or bad for humanity?

12:26And this was the really exciting finding. They became more open to re-examine their own attitudes. so that when people really learn and practice deep listening, they start to think more deeply about what they themselves believe.

12:42Jonathan Fields: And I do want to dive into the details of deep listening because I think it's a fascinating modality. Before we get there, though, I mean, part of what you're sharing here also is, you know, one of the challenges to deep listening is polarized points of view. And certainly, like we live in a world right now where people are vehemently opposed, in the context of what they believe, and they're really dug in. And so one of my curiosities is what is the harm caused by the loss of the ability to really listen? And in the context of deep polarization, sometimes that harm actually rises to the level of life and death.

13:20Yeah, I think it's incredibly frightening what's happened with polarization, although I should say that often in the media, we see people who are representative of organisations and they have the most strong views. And there are a lot of people in the middle, the exhausted majority, who don't feel so strongly. And yet we don't hear their voices. But we do know that people inside families, inside communities, all over the US and in many other countries are really grappling with polarization. And it feels to people almost as if they listen to people who think on the other side, they will be contaminated with these ideas.

14:04They will be letting their side down as if it is immoral to let the light of attention and actually listen to these views they find very hard. So much easier on one-to-one than on social media or in text, where ideas just get reduced. And, you know, in my mind, it's all about recognising the humanity behind the person. So if people are religious, they might draw upon the idea of recognising God's face in every other person, or just recognising the essential humanity which they connect, which connects people even with very different beliefs. And the process of deep listening allows you to have that much more profound conversation, which allows you to connect in a far more profound way and reveal that humanity.

14:53Martin Buber, who is a Jewish theologian, he distinguished between I-it encounters, which are the ones we most often have when we treat the other person as an object or somebody to extract value from, or we go through the motions of listening. And I, thou encounters where something almost magical happens beyond each of you as individuals. It's like being in a joint state of flow. And you are, some people talk about like your soul engages with their soul. Something happens, which is beyond surface level. And you are both changed through that encounter.

15:31Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I think we all know when we have those experiences. I would imagine also that so many of us would, if you asked when was the last time you had a conversation like that, a moment like that, an interaction like that, they would probably have to search for a bit to point to an experience. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs.

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17:24Jonathan Fields: I want to follow up on something that you mentioned. It's this relationship between polarization and listening. And what popped into my mind as you're describing this is, so many of us are polarized in part because they're a set of beliefs that we buy into, but also in part because we belong to a community of people. And the communal set of beliefs is X. and for us to have a good standing in that community, we need to either truly believe X also or at least signal that we believe X. So if you have one group that believes X and another group that believes Y and those X and Y are like polar opposites in terms of like the way that they worldview an issue at the moment, I wonder also how much that desire to almost primal need to belong to the group that you're in and adopt their beliefs and publicly signal that you adopt their beliefs is a mechanism.

18:23Jonathan Fields: I wonder how much that influences our willingness and ability to then listen to the other side, because it's almost like if I even entertain the other point of view, I risk being outcast from the community to which I seek to belong. I wonder if you've seen that come up in some way in the research you've done. Yeah, absolutely it does. And Jay Van Babel at New York University has done work in this space in particular. And this is absolutely true. You know, we're primed to have an in-group and an out-group because, of course, it feels so great to belong. We all want to belong. And therefore, we're willing to sacrifice some nuances in order to feel that we are part of something.

19:02And that makes the other the outcast. And what we do is then we paint on the face of the enemy all the uncomfortable shadows inside ourselves that we don't want to accept. In fact, often when we really have trouble speaking to an individual and we think they're really horrific or evil or selfish or all of the attributes are often ones that we actually hold about ourselves but don't want to accept. And I think doing that work on yourself, really figuring out what's going on can be so helpful so that we stop painting the enemy with everything that we hold most abhorrent. I also think understanding complexity and nuance, because so much of what we think about the other is misconstrued.

19:51There's been research more in common amongst Republicans and Democrats, and their perceptions of the other are often way off, way off reality. Whether it is that Republicans think that Democrats like to eat abortion for breakfast. And many Democrats have a lot of hesitations and concerns around abortions or a similar factor on the other way around. We're all subject to perils of perception. We're all subject to ideas of the other side, which tend not to really reflect the complexity. So allowing complexity and being brave enough and having the courage to have more of those encounters with people who think differently can allow us to realise, wait a moment, she's a Democrat, but she doesn't believe what I thought all Democrats believe.

20:41But it takes not only having the encounter, but being in a space of deep listening when we're having that encounter that can really enable us to have it more meaningfully and to broaden our perception of the other side. And one really great question to ask somebody who thinks differently is what in your life experience has led you to believe what you do. Because once we give them the opportunity to dig deep and to reflect back something of their own peculiarity of their life, we're able to connect at a human to human level, which then stops the fabrication of ideologies and labels which obfuscates and hides that possibility of a real person-to-person connection, which can be so beautiful.

21:31Jonathan Fields: That framing is so interesting, right? Because I think a lot of people really are curious about the answer to that, but oftentimes it comes out as something like, how could you possibly believe that? Which is an attack. But what they're really saying is like, tell me what in your life has led you to this place where you actually, you believe this thing that I think if we can come with, you know, with genuine curiosity. It's just the language that we use to phrase these questions is so important. Yeah, I have got in my book, actually, I have a list of questions, which are kind of good to ask, particularly when you disagree and links to more.

22:05So I think thinking about the words you use can be really important. But I think even more than the words, it's your, you know, what's going on for you? What's in your heart? Because I think the words are an expression and the person senses what's in your heart when you're having that encounter. that.

22:22Jonathan Fields: Yeah. And this notion also that you shared of allowing space for complexity. We love to distill people who are in a conversation with, especially if they believe or see things differently than us, we love to distill them down into a caricature. You know, like, what is the most base version of that person? Because it's easier to other a caricature, you know, and it's easier to sort of define the difference between and rather than saying, maybe they're a human being like us as you're inviting. And maybe like me, they're really complicated too. And you're like, I don't see the world the same way.

22:57Jonathan Fields: I don't see an issue the same way today, maybe six months from now. And you're like, things are domain specific oftentimes, you know, we're complex. And especially when you take things to social media, you know, like that's where nuance goes to die. That's where complexity goes to die. It's really a binary medium. And that's where so many of us feel like we're searching for answers or to be seen or to be heard. And it's just, it's not a place where you really can never get to a level that good things happen. I so agree with you, Jonathan, because we have many different identities. You know, we might be a parent, we're a boss, but we're also colleague, we're maybe a member of a church, we are, there's so many different identities.

23:36We're a volunteer, we don't have one identity, yet we often put one label on the other person. And you mentioned, which was so beautiful, the fact that we evolve. And Carl Rogers, the psychologist who I've drawn off on very heavily in my work, wrote about the fact that we're all in the process of becoming. So even your partner is not the same person as last year, last week, or even last night. And yet so often when we talk to those, especially those we're most intimate with, we assume that they are. And therefore, we don't really open our hearts to understand their new ideas on what they're wrestling with today.

24:14And that really stops relationships from being profound and authentic.

24:19Jonathan Fields: Yeah, it's like we often step into every new conversation, expecting to talk to the person that we knew the day before the year before, never allowing space for evolution and assuming that there is no shift, there's no change, there's no growth. What if we gave ourselves the grace to say like, I don't know where this person that say, let me just ask, let me come into it with a place of curiosity. So you use the phrase deep listening a number of times now. I want to explore that. Tell me broadly what we're talking about when we talk about deep listening, and then let's walk through the model that you've developed.

24:51In a way, I think to really sum it up, it's about the whole of you listening to the whole of them. So if I talk that through in just a little bit more detail with these eight steps, and in my book. There's a chapter for each set. So this is just a brief outline. But the first one is about creating the space. It's about creating the best environment. So at the most important, it's about a space which the speaker will feel psychologically safe. So, for example, in an open plan office or in front of another sibling, not the best place to find out why your kid is getting bad grades from his homework or why your colleague is being late for work yet again.

25:33You know, being in a space which feels protected, safe, not hurt, often going for a walk can be great to get out of the confines of the office or the home. Somebody was telling me with their kid that they went to the child's bedroom or even somebody else told me they'd climbed under the bed to find out why their daughter was refusing to go back to school because their daughter just went under the bed and refused to come out and it was their safe space. So think about what is safe for the other person. But walking in nature can be even more profound. Teenagers great in the car, side by side without a kind of compulsion to talk because of the noisy traffic can work really, really well.

26:13Jonathan Fields: In any given context, is there a question that we can ask ourselves to sort of prompt ourselves to figure out like, what is a safe space in this context? Or how do we actually think about doing this? Because I think so many of us have heard, you know, create psychological safety, either in work environments or family environments or therapy. But a lot of us really have no idea what that means. And like the how side of it is a confusing place. That's a very good question. There I was, I just interrupted you again, trying to think about what you were going to say. As I said, I do that plenty. At least I'm aware now that I'm doing it, which is the first step.

26:47But we can ask ourselves, will this space be the best space to create a great listening environment? And it doesn't just mean psychological safety. It also means, for example, blue-white overhead light, like in a hospital or a school, that puts people on edge. Far better to have softer light with a longer wavelength, more pink-yellow on the sides because we prefer because of the sun to have a more dissolved sort of lighting from the side where an uplighter can make people feel more comfortable. But it's also how can people feel really cherished for a difficult conversation? So I spent time with Japanese tea ceremony practitioners and they will find the most beautiful ceramic vase or glass to give somebody some tea and they will then rotate it.

27:35So the most beautiful picture is facing the person, their guest and they'll get a bamboo leaf from the balcony or garden and place it on top of the water in order that the person feels cherished. Maybe it's their favourite Adele track, which you know makes them feel comfortable. So you can have a think about what is it from their perspective that makes them feel at home and more likely to be comfortable and even cherished. And step two is listening to yourself first. We were talking earlier about situations where we paint the things that we find most uncomfortable in ourselves onto the person we disagree with.

28:14And that we have whole families of shadows. So I was talking to a colleague of mine and he was, he chairs an English regional energy company. He's chair of the board. One of his colleagues is an accountant. And yet he said, I'm never really able to tap into his expertise and I need it because I don't really know about finance. I need his help, but I find he's always arrogant and I can't get on and I don't know what's going on. And when he was describing it to me, I just sort of held the space. And then he suddenly realised that that individual, his accountant on the board, reminded him of his bullying older brother.

28:53And his parents didn't really want much to do with the kids at that stage. Their eldest had already left the house. His older brother would sit in the kitchen and have loads of experiments with bunts and burners and all sorts of great equipment, was not interested in his baby brother. So this guy felt in talking to his accountant that he was eight yet again. And in fact, in my book, I illustrated the book for those who are seeing it on video. Here's a picture of all these shadows that, you know, somebody's trying to listen and all these shadows are causing chaos inside us. And being aware and taking the time to acknowledge these shadows, if only to ourself, as well as our agenda.

29:35You know, we can ask ourself, what's really going on here? What's most important in this conversation? Perhaps it's the relationship rather than my desire to win. And until we ask ourselves those questions, we're not really in a space to listen to ourselves. And I would say that if you've experienced trauma, you know, listening to yourself can be quite dangerous work and you might need the help of a specialist in order to be in a safe place. But even if you haven't, you know, you might want to think about a safe anchor, something that makes you feel really good, like a pet or a beautiful place in nature, or someone who really loves you to be able to, in your mind, go back to again, if these shadows come up in the middle of the conversation, for example, and you can say to the shadow, you know, whoa, I know you want to say something, but I think I can handle it.

30:25Can me talk about this later? You can say to yourself, and then you're able to return back to the person speaking.

30:32Jonathan Fields: No, that makes so much sense. You know, that question that you just shared, what's really going on here, I think can be so powerful, because it assumes that there is a subtext happening. And oftentimes, the assumption that we're making is assumptions about other people, who they are, why they're doing it, their motivations, their secret agendas, all these different things, we have no idea, you know, but we overlay our history, our trauma, like our patterns, our relationship with past people who have in some way slightly mapped with the same way that this person is showing up and we assume all the same stuff.

31:07Jonathan Fields: So that question of what's really going on here, I mean, I love that because I feel like it helps us look at our assumptions, look at our inner dialogue, look at our emotional triggers and bring them in and say, okay, am I responding to the person in front of me? Or am I responding to all of these hidden things, the shadows, as you describe, within me? Do you find that even just realizing that just immediately makes a difference, allows you to step in and listen differently? Yeah, I absolutely think that awareness gives you more choices. But I would say coming to terms with our own stuff, it's a work of a lifetime.

31:44Jonathan Fields: Therapy may help for sure. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, sometimes if we're not too traumatized by something, I think just go out for a walk somewhere ideally where nobody can hear and let that shadow have its voice. Say, I'm feeling you're really angry and you're frightened of this person who's here to mend your boiler. You know, what's going on here? And give that shadow a voice and listen to what the shadow has to say. because once the shadow is able to articulate, we no longer feel we need to keep it in our basement, to use the terminology of Dick Schwartz, who's done lots of brilliant work on these shadows and our families of shadows.

32:23They no longer, we feel that we have these firefighters who need to keep all these shadows in the basement. We can acknowledge them and even begin to accept them and even acknowledge a positive part that they play in our life, trying to protect us, because that's often the role that they do play. And if we can begin to do this work, sometimes even those very difficult conversations could be like torches to illuminate what's going on in our own souls, in our own psyches. And so that we can begin that process of coming to terms and even, you know, certainly beginning to acknowledge and even accepting those parts of ourselves so that we can be more open to the other.

33:00And as you said earlier, we're not just projecting all our own stuff onto the other person. Yeah.

33:06Jonathan Fields: And you just use the phrase so we can be more open to the other. And it's almost like a yes. And it's like, yes, that's a great benefit of this. And at the same time, this also really allows us to reconnect with who we are and give ourselves a sense of grace along the way. So it's like you get these double benefits here. Yeah. Talk to me about the third element. We talked about create safety, listening to yourself. Where do we go from here? You're quite right. And the listening to yourself is such an important part of deep listening. And it is the ability to connect, but also to connect with yourself and who you are.

33:39And I think that's so important. So step three is being present. So when I train people, whether in conflict zones or boardrooms, I actually do a meditation, which is a bit radical in certain boardrooms and certain situations. But it's a time for me to get back and to focus on my breathing and to get back to being present. Even just this very second of talking about it, I can feel I'm calm and you might notice a difference in my voice. And it's enabling us to both being aware of those external distractions, like our phone we were talking about earlier, but also the internal distractions about, I really need to win on this situation and to convince the other person that I'm right and we need to go on holiday to place A and not place B, or we need to make this deal with this client, regardless of some of the risks or whatever it is, you know, and allows you to figure out what's going on, having that space.

34:36And so when I was coaching people at the BBC, and indeed now when I coach people and I do executive coaching, I always try and put some time aside in my diary to return to being present before I do the listening. Because being present, you know, I don't know if you've ever been on a Zoom or Teams call Jonathan. And as you are speaking, you've actually got your phone underneath off camera, and you're checking your email.

35:00Jonathan Fields: Of course, I've never done that. Of course, I've heard other people. I mean, who hasn't done that, right? Exactly. And the person knows it. Yeah. Even if they can't see the camera, they know that you're not really there. And it's so important to be present as we feel it. And I spent time with First Nation Canadians because they've evolved a way of being present really beautiful. over tens of thousands of years, and this idea of being present with whatever is to unfold. And one of them talked about it with me is that when they're listening, they're not just listening by themselves, all their ancestors are listening with them, and not just their ancestors, but their future progeny.

35:41And not only that, but also the soil and the grass and the sky, and they're all listening together. And that expansiveness of listening, I think is a really beautiful image to keep in mind and helps me keep in mind rather than that kind of very tight focus of just you and the other person through a small tunnel of communication. And so step four is about being curious. And it's a kind of gateway because it's that assumption that we don't already know what the person is thinking or is going to say that allows us to break free of script and start to have an authentic conversation. And then when we are curious, the person can tell us, let's say a new neighbour will tell us about their daughter who's training to be a nurse.

36:30And then suddenly, we have more empathy for them and their daughter. You know, we understand more what's going on in their life. And we can connect with them with empathy and then also with respect. And this is regardless of whether or not you agree with what they're talking about, as well as being aware of our own judgments, because that's so important.

36:49Jonathan Fields: How can we, and this ties in a little bit earlier to what we were talking about, which is so often we show up, assuming we know where another person stands, what they're going to say, what the point of view is going to be in a conversation. And we get pretty dug in, not only in our own position, but in thinking that we know what the other person is going to say and what their willingness to be in a conversation with is. And also we show up with an agenda. Like my agenda in this conversation is not to get curious. That's not my quote job. My job is to win. My job is to persuade the other person to my point of view.

37:24Jonathan Fields: And I have a really deeply held point of view. This is like a bone deep point of view. I think so often we show up to a conversation where like, I don't really have an interest in getting curious. Because my job is to somehow get them to see the world that I see it. When you're that dug in, and I think a lot of folks are these days, what can we do to shift from that to, oh, I'm genuine, not just, oh, I've been told to be curious, so let me ask a question or two so I can check that box. But how can I switch from that to stepping into a conversation, being genuinely curious? I think that for me, when I feel adamantly that I'm right, 100%, and the other person is 150 % in the wrong, and I have done this at times, feel like my survival rests on me winning and convincing the other person.

38:18That, to me, I've learned is a signal there's some of my stuff going on. I'm not, that's nothing actually to do with the other person. It's something that they represent in my own psyche. It's a warning sign to me that actually I need to do some of that self-reflection when I feel that adamant about something. It's rarely because people are complex. There's no, you know, there isn't a black and white. I think that being present and acknowledging to ourself that agenda can be really, really helpful in allowing it to let go even a little bit. And then I think if you listen to the other person, looking out for something that might surprise you, for example, these little devices that help shift you from storing up your ammunition ready to prove yourself.

39:14And then the other thing that I think can be really useful, let's say you're having an argument with your spouse, is knowing that if the person feels deeply listened to the research, there's a lot of evidence around this, they're much more likely to be in a space to listen to you. It's almost kind of crazy because let's say if you really do want to go on holiday on X and not to Y, it's much more useful to really listen to your partner, why they want to go to location Y, and really reflect back, and we'll get to that in a minute, the very true reasons why they believe that Y is a far greater destination, that your speaker will be more likely to become more open minded and understand that there's different perspectives and will be more likely to listen to you about why X is better.

40:07And in fact, you then might both be open minded and decided actually you don't want to go on holiday at all.

40:13Jonathan Fields: And it speaks to this notion of maybe even if you can kind of have this hidden agenda, but you know, it actually, the way to quote, persuade them to your point of view is to actually really pay attention and to be present and to listen and to, to, as we're about to, you know, explore, reflect and clarify that actually may be the best way to do it. But then along the way, if you're really doing that, you may end up being like, Oh, actually I kind of see their point of view. And I think maybe I even agree with it, You know, so it's like, yeah, I love the way that you can kind of use it in a bit of a subversive way that actually opens your heart at the same time in your mind.

40:52Jonathan Fields: And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Wild Alaskan Company. So, you know, the older I get, the less tolerance I have for things that don't actually deliver. And that includes food. I used to grab kind of whatever looked good at the grocery store, fish in a plastic wrapper, no real idea where it came from, who caught it, or how long it had been just kind of sitting there. And you could taste that in it. There's a flatness to fish that has been handled too many times by the time it reaches you. Wild Alaskan Company, it completely changed that for me.

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42:35Jonathan Fields: So here's something I find genuinely fascinating. The places where exceptional design shows up where you least expect it, where someone decided that an everyday object, something completely ordinary, deserve the same level of intention and craft as anything else in your life. That's exactly what Kohler is doing with their smart toilets. Their Veil Smart Toilet doesn't look anything like what you'd picture when you hear the word toilet. It's sculptural, considered the kind of design that makes you do a double take. And the experience is designed to match. Elevated, personal, quieter than you'd expect.

43:06Jonathan Fields: The kind of thing that transforms your morning routine without you even fully realizing it. That's what good design does. And Kohler has been doing it, refusing to accept that every day has to be ordinary for over 150 years. Discover Kohler Smart Toilets at Kohler.com. Good Life Project is sponsored by Hero Bread. So I kind of love summer. It's a time where I tend to slow down a bit and enjoy longer days more, and yummy food is always a part of that. And like so many others, I love bread, but always kind of struggled to find bread and bagels, even pasta that tasted amazing, and also made me feel good about the nutritional side.

43:45Jonathan Fields: That is where Hero Bread's been showing up for me lately. Their plain and everything bagels and sliced breads have been a constant in my rotation all summer. They're so good. I'm just always finding new ways to make sandwiches with them. And their tortillas make quick lunch wraps, easy before a hike. And I may just be a little bit obsessed with Hero Noodles. And I love that the different offerings are, they range from only like 0 to 5 grams of net carbs, 11 to 32 grams of fiber, which is amazing. And some even give you up to 19 grams of protein. I'll admit I didn't expect to love their limited drops as much as I do.

44:20Jonathan Fields: The Hero Croissant has 2 grams of net carbs. The panel chocolate has three and they don't last long in our house. And the texture is moist and yummy. No sacrificing, but actually tastes good. Just food that meets you where your summer already is. So go to hero.co. That's H-E-R-O dot C-O. And use the code goodlife at checkout for 10 % off your order. So take me into the further elements here. Step five is about the gaze. so really hard to do on a zoom call or riverside podcast studio thing we're doing now so i'm both trying to look at your body language i've shrunk your photo really small so it's directly below the camera not ideal in person so much easier but you don't want to be face to face and that's why we all get so exhausted from the zoom you know cause in in lockdown you know if you're face to face you usually either want to kiss or fight and doesn't make you feel really at ease actually 60 degrees, I spent some time with researchers working in this, is a good angle between the two of you so you can see the other person's eyes and body language, but you're not face to face.

45:25The gaze is so important, but it's not a kind of, I don't know if you know the French philosopher Michel Foucault, who talked about the gaze of prison officers, the way that they looked at prisoners to such a degree that the prisoners became self-imprisoned by their own minds. it's a warm-hearted, pathetic, open gaze, which allows the person to then go on all sorts of journeys, knowing you're there waiting, looking at them with warmth for them to return from their journey. And I found that experience as a coach to be very, very effective. And because you've held them in that warm-hearted gaze, their journey will be so much richer because they know that you're accompanying them, not necessarily with the thoughts, but you are in a broader, wider sense.

46:11And that's so impactful.

46:13Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I love that. Before we get to step six, quick curiosity around the gaze. So I live in Boulder, Colorado. One of the jokes here when people come to town is that nobody goes for coffee, everyone goes for a hike. And it's actually pretty true. So I'm out hiking with new friends, with old friends, sometimes in business meetings, and we're just kind of walking side by side. So we're not gazing at each other. It's actually, if anything, we're shoulder to shoulder looking ahead or looking at nature or something like that. So in the context of gaze, and I found oftentimes this type of conversation, it's much more open, much more fluid, much more curiosity driven, much more vulnerable at times, even though there's no version of direct gaze, except for occasionally glancing over as you're chatting.

46:56Jonathan Fields: Do you have a sense for what's going on there? I think that walking can be fantastic because there's also research that if you walk at a certain pace, not too slow, not too quickly, it kind of matches your heart rate and you get in sync with each other beautifully. And you can have a real companionable silence where you don't always feel you need to talk. And you're both making a journey, a physical journey together through nature. And as a coach, I would often go for walks with clients and they would sometimes refer back to parts of the conversation and what we saw at various points. And it's even more effective if you want to talk about the future or a bigger horizon or more people's perspective to go somewhere a bit higher where you can look down because we've evolved to feel safer.

47:42We've also good if to have a bit of water, flowing water, because again, that makes us feel, you know, we need to have water near us. So all of those things make I'm not surprised that you're walking conversations and you're right. You're not looking at each other. But in fact, when you want to know what the person is thinking and feeling beyond the words, tone of voice is far more important than facial expression. Because facial expression, you might be feeling really happy, but that's because you're about to eat a gorgeous chocolate donut just resting on your table. not because of anything I've said, or you might be looking stressed and that's because you're worried you've forgotten something important, not because of something I've said.

48:22So facial expression, not very reliable. Gestures, not so reliable unless you speak a foreign language and we don't speak the same language or you say, I climbed over a river and it was that high and you point your hand up high, you know, so tone of voice is far more effective. Of course, the content of the words are the most important thing. And I write about the research around that when you're trying to understand what somebody says. So moving on to step six, which is about holding the silence. And many people fear this, especially in America, I was training some Hollywood executives and they said, you know, we don't have silence.

48:57We're far too busy. We need to come up with quick and witty retorts to show that we're in business. And silence, when I train people, they say that they feel really uncomfortable. And in fact, it's often the listener who feels uncomfortable. The speaker feels, as long as it's a warm and pathetic silence, that they have more time to unpack and think through. Because ideally, you want your speaker not just to give you the same rehearsed soundbites they've told to everybody before, you want them to be thinking new thoughts in your presence. And silence gives you the space to establish trust and the speaker's mind to evolve into new domains and new possibilities, which is so exciting.

49:40And research came out in 21 called Silence is Golden and found that even in negotiations, the parties who were told to keep 20 seconds of silence, none of them did 20 seconds. The average longest was 17.5. We always exaggerate the seconds we think for being silent. Anyway, both parties were far more likely to come up with win-win scenarios, creative ways where both sides benefited than zero sum. If you win, I lose. So there's many different types of silence. I have pictures of the nine different types of silence, quoting a poet, Paul Goodman. But if we can have a warm, empathetic, companionable silence, that is very, very powerful.

50:24Feels weird at first, but I invite listeners to the podcast to try just a few seconds sprinkling them. You might want to tell your speaker you're experimenting with silence or just use them. See what happens because often you find that you'll learn all sorts of things that you didn't expect.

50:41Jonathan Fields: It's interesting you share that one of the tools of the sort of the classic interview tools and I learned this many years ago is to just, you know, very deliberately bring a pause to a conversation because that's often when, especially I think a Western mindset, that people feel really uncomfortable with that space and they feel the need to fill that space. Sometimes they'll feel actually, well, this is actually a beautiful invitation for me to go further. The person is not jumping in. They're not trying to solve me or fix me. I actually get to be seen, to be heard, and that's so rare. But other times, people show up with prepared, they know exactly what they're going to say, how they're going to say it.

51:23Jonathan Fields: They've done it a thousand times. And when you bring a pause to the conversation, they feel the urge to fill that space, but they've already shared the planned part of it. And that's often where the really juicy part of a conversation begins, where somebody actually starts to go, quote, off script. They're not soundbiting anymore. And it's a really powerful thing, but it's rarely ever done. And I think most people actually, and again, depending on the context, like you shared, some people feel like this is moment of grace, I get to open, I get to unfold more. How beautiful is this? Other people feel just profound discomfort and the need to speak.

52:04Jonathan Fields: But even in that, oftentimes it leads the conversation to a place that wasn't planned, which is where oftentimes the best stuff happens. It is the best stuff. But let me go to step seven, because this is very, very relevant. So step seven is about reflecting back and it's reflecting back. You might have been on an active listening course and you say, yeah, yeah, I get you and you paraphrase what you've just heard or the last word they've said, that is not reflecting back of deep listening. Step seven is really using the whole of you to intuit what you think is really going on for the other person.

52:39Also, including their emotions, whether they've not expressed them in words and also what's unsaid. So, for example, if you've had that silence and you feel that the person is feeling really uncomfortable. It's being authentic and saying to them, I gave you a pause there to enable you to think more thoughts, but I'm having a sense that you're feeling uncomfortable. Is it true? It's about labelling the noise in the room. I was once doing a demonstration of deep listening to a room full of journalists in Perugia at a big journalist festival. And I asked somebody to step and volunteer and nobody would volunteer.

53:14So I said, who would like to see a real person volunteer rather than somebody on my panel. Guy put his hand up. I said, all right, you, you come to the front of the room. He was super reluctant. And when I was asking him a question about his name, he kept saying, so tell me about your name. But because I wasn't able to be present, I continued persevering. When I reflected back, which I do in the book on that conversation, I write that if I had been really present, I would have said, I'm sensing that you're pretty uncomfortable because I forced you to do this in a room full of journalists. Is that right?

53:47And suddenly we're having a real authentic conversation rather than just being on script, as you referred to earlier. And step seven really allows us to go deeper. And that leads us to step eight. I talk about in the book Theodor Reich, who was one of the first pupils of Sigmund Freud in Vienna. And then he went to practice as a psychoanalyst in New York. And he talked about the third ear. And I like to think of the third ear as being really close to your heart. So you're not just using the oral sounds in your ears, you're using all of you to intuit what's going on for the other person, your third ear, to capture what they've said, what they haven't said, the noise in the room, if you're feeling uncomfortable, if they feel they're feeling uncomfortable, as long as it's in the service of them and their understanding of themselves

54:37Jonathan Fields: and your understanding of them, as well as their motivations and their values. That's also in step eight. I mean, the model makes so much sense. And at the same time, I wonder if there's a sort of like a meta piece of this that we've touched into to a certain extent, but it's the skill of awareness to be able to drop into any one of the eight elements of this model, the deep listening model. there's a certain amount of not just self-awareness but other awareness ambient awareness that we need to be able to harness to actually implement this model and i wonder if you see in working with so many people that this skill can sometimes be in shorthand these days and and in some way hinder people's ability to drop into the model i think that we all have the capacity to get better.

55:32And in fact, the research demonstrates if we believe we can get better, we're more likely to get better. And I think that's the same with awareness. I know how much I've developed and I've seen as a coach how much other people can change and develop. And it's about starting small. And in the book, I include a reflection sheet in order to reflect on your own practice, even if you only intend to introduce bit parts of deep listening in a conversation that in itself is a beginning if you then go skew with. And it's just about practicing and reflecting on your own what happened in a conversation allows you to become more aware, to fine tune these things.

56:12And I would say it's best to start listening, to practice deep listening. It's certainly not for every conversation. If I were to ask you if you wanted a cup of tea and you were to go and waited for 20 second silence, I'd probably throw the tea in your face or something. These are for the conversations when you think differently, when it really matters, when you feel there's a relationship you need to mend. But beginning and practicing with somebody who you have a great relationship with. Let me just tell you a story with my mother who has got some dementia and she's in her 90s. And I went to see her just a couple of months ago.

56:47And I said, how are you doing? And she said, I'm not so good. and normally I would try and cheer her up because that's my job. She's got a carer 24-7, but I visit her a few times a week. I say, oh, I'm sure it's not so bad and look at this lovely, beautiful flowers I bought you or the sort of usual response. But I thought, no, let me try this deep listening with her. And I said, you know, so you're not feeling good today? And she said, no, I feel like I'm an object just being blown by the wind and I've landed here and I have no control over that. And that makes me, you know, I don't like that.

57:23And so I reflected back her loss of agency and what she felt. And she said, yeah, I feel I have no control. And it will make me very sad if I end up here. She is in the home where she brought us up as children and she returned to the UK. I brought her back so I could take better care of her some 10 years ago. And we continue to stay in that difficult space, difficult for her and difficult for me. And only after being in that space for five or 10 minutes and me having the courage to be there, I then said, you know, do you see those Chagall prints? You know, do you remember my father bought them because he loved Chagall?

58:03And do you see those candles, those old candles on the bookshelf? You know, me and my sisters made them and you were such a lovely mother. And then she said to me, yeah, and I was a really good daughter-in-law to my awful parents-in-law. She hadn't mentioned them for five years, you know, but because I was able to be with her in that space, she suddenly was able to access different memories, a different part of herself. And then we talked about those, you know, how much she loved us and how grateful I am, you know, she, it was a different mother that I had left than the one who I had entered the room with.

58:36Jonathan Fields: That's such a beautiful example of this at work in a practical, everyday way. It doesn't have to be big polarizing conversations. It doesn't, you know, there's probably so many daily interactions or conversations where you just sit down with somebody and just, you know, the act of giving someone your undivided attention, of being deeply present for them, of being all these things, curious, you know, creating a safe environment for them. I feel like it's so rare that when somebody experiences it, It lands as a gift. And there doesn't necessarily need to be a resolution beyond that. Like the experience itself of being seen and heard and held in that way is so powerful.

59:18Jonathan Fields: It's almost like an end to itself. Does that land? Yeah, completely. And let me tell you another little story. I was in a pharmacy just recently picking up some drugs for my daughter. And there was a lady sitting waiting for her own drugs on a plastic chair, NHS, part of the UK Public Health Service pharmacy. and they asked me what the date of my birth of my daughter so I said 20 it's the 3rd of July 21 and the farmer said you sure and I thought no wait a minute 3rd of July 2001 that's pretty stupid and the lady sitting on the chair said how could you not know the birth date of your own daughter that's pretty silly and I said yeah you're quite right she wouldn't be pleased with that at all.

1:00:01And we had a laugh. And then she told me about her grandmother who was in her mid 90s. And she said, yeah, I'm proud of my grandmother getting to that age. And I sensed in her something was going on. And I said, you say you're proud. But at the same time, I sense that, you know, there's something else that's going on. And she said, yes, I am proud, but I think that I'm going to die before my grandmother. And we talked some more and she told me about her condition. And then she started crying and then she apologized for crying. And then she said, thank you for listening. And I left and went back home and she went back home or wherever she lives.

1:00:49And it was that sort a momentary encounter. And so often in life, people don't have the opportunity to talk to anybody. And if we can just be alive to those occasional encounters, they only take minutes, or even less sometimes, but they can allow people to feel truly heard. And I think that's so impactful.

1:01:09Jonathan Fields: Yeah, so agree with that. I think especially in the moment we're in the world, in culture, in just personal, interpersonal relationships and dynamics. It's a beautiful thing when that unfolds and we need more of it for sure. It feels a good place for us to come full circle as well in our conversation. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To be open to deepening the connections with people who you care about the most, but also to people who are strangers who you are encountering for the first time and enable those connections to enrich the both of you and increase your mutual understanding, particularly when you think differently.

1:02:01Thank you.

1:02:03Jonathan Fields: Hey, if you love this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we have with Krista Tippett about the art of deep conversation and the human spirit. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here.

1:02:40Jonathan Fields: do me a personal favor a seven second favor share it with just one person and if you want to share it with more that's awesome too but just one person even then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter because that's how we all come alive together until next time I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project

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