The Caregiving Conversation Everyone Postpones Until It's Too Late.

0:00Jonathan Fields: So there's this phrase, the sandwich generation. You're caring for aging parents and kids, even adult kids, all at once. It can be challenging, but also empowering and beautiful, especially if you have the clarity, the tools and support needed to turn it into something that's not just always hard, but also in some ways, maybe even a little bit transformational. In today's conversation, you'll discover the four critical shifts that define a two-way caregiving season and why logistics are actually the easiest part. You'll learn about the conversation that almost no one has before a crisis arrives that you really have to have for this to go smoothly.

0:40Jonathan Fields: We'll talk about the three people who can change everything when you stop trying to navigate this alone and the unexpected beauty that enters a season that nobody tells you about. Our guide is acclaimed New York City estate attorney, podcast host, and sandwich generation member herself, Candice Delacana. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. And we'll jump right in there after this short break.

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3:37Jonathan Fields: Apple card puts the power of titanium in the palm of your hand. What does that mean? It means the power to earn unlimited daily cash back on your purchases every day. It means a materially different credit card accepted anywhere in the world. MasterCard is accepted. Dish the plastic, upgrade to titanium. Apply in the wallet app on iPhone today. Subject to credited approval, Apple card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch, terms and more at applecard.com. The data on The impact and you could argue the burden of what's become known as the sandwich generation is pretty staggering.

4:14Jonathan Fields: Last year, ARP came out with a report that said there are about 63 million caregivers just in the U.S. Almost one in three are members of the sandwich generation. Three in five are women, average age 51. About half are mothers in the sandwich generation who say they've already left a job because of caregiving. And then there's this other staggering number. The Urban Institute put out this number that said the average lifetime income loss is at nearly$300 ,000. And then you have loneliness piled on top of that. And women are significantly more likely to report these feelings. These are the stats, but these are people who you have been working with, advising on multiple levels for years now.

5:05Jonathan Fields: What does this look like on a lived day-to-day basis? Paint that picture for me. In addition to meeting with people in the sandwich generation, I am one. I think an important part of the dialogue around the sandwich generation is much more related to sort of who the person is as it relates to those they're caring for and the way that the lines have become incredibly blurred for the person who's sort of in the middle in the sandwich. It's a much deeper and greater issue than just the logistics of providing the care. It's truly who you are while you're providing the care. And the conflation between being a caregiver to perhaps the younger generation, your children or whomever your younger loved ones are, and the older generation, whether that's parents or in my case, an uncle.

6:08and trying to not lose yourself in the process. And I think it is further complicated by the fact that not only is the sandwich generation member going through kind of an identity crisis over a period of time, all the people that they're caring for, they're also having to redefine who they are in very fundamental ways and deal with all of the feelings that go along with that.

6:39Jonathan Fields: So we've used this phrase sandwich generation, and some people probably get it just intuitively. But who is the sandwich generation? The statistics are very sort of startling, as you point out. But I think that what gets lost in the statistics is you're talking about generally a demographic, an age range. I think the sandwich generation is really anyone that feels pushed and pulled between providing care to someone and not losing themselves in the process. So for example, if you look at the actual demographics, it's most women in the middle 30s to their middle 50s. But then if you take a look, for example, at a group of young professional athletes, who in their family are the ones with the resources.

7:36They also are in the sandwich generation because they are sort of sought after within their family unit to provide and share the money and those resources. So I think we have to sort of expand our idea of what the sandwich which generation is. It really kind of refers to a season in life. For some people, it's a longer season. For some, it's shorter. But I also think it's important to allow yourself, if you don't fit into that cookie cutter category, that you can still feel the pressure and not have the same level of traditional, if you will, obligations.

8:23Jonathan Fields: So somebody comes into you, and they are a sandwich generationer on a very basic, visceral, lived level. What are they talking to you about? What are they experiencing on a day-to-day, hour-by-hour basis that they're exploring, grappling with, struggling with, feeling the weight of? What I see most often when people come into my office is the new sort of introduction of the need coming from the older generation of their time and the request starting. Now, sometimes that can start with a health event where an aging family member has had a diagnosis or a fall and life as the sandwich generation member knows it changes significantly.

9:12sometimes because the older generation could have been helping them raise their children or provide childcare or provide the great advice. And perhaps they're not in a position anymore to provide that advice.

9:26Jonathan Fields: What you're bringing up is another, is something that I don't hear talked about a lot, which is this notion that maybe actually the older generation was really helping you just manage getting through each day. And they're decreasingly able to do that. So it's not just the burden of sort of like managing up and down at the same time. It's also, it's the loss of potentially help, of assistance that was really deeply appreciated and needed. It's exactly right. I mean, if you look at sort of what's going on in our economy, the cost of childcare is expensive, as it should be, right? And often people look to grandparents to fill that role.

10:10And so if a grandparent is providing the help that's needed that would otherwise have to be paid for, and now all of a sudden the grandparent can both not help you and also need care themselves, it can really feel like you've been walloped.

10:29Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I could totally see that. You know, it occurs to me also, as you're describing this, that this is often a season of life that tends to overlap for many people with a season of striving towards some level of financial stability. I think, yes, we absolutely see it. And I think what's happening with our generation is that we're not planning for taking on the added responsibility of caregiving. Because most of us don't start that conversation with our aging loved one until something's happened, until there's some kind of trigger. So all these other life events, having a baby, buying your first house, these are all things we planned for.

11:15I don't know if it's because it's our American culture where we don't focus necessarily on aging and there's such a priority and a celebration of youth and new life and all of those things that we are sort of ignoring or willfully and blindly going into this phase in our life that can be challenging and expensive. but the conversations are not happening at the rate they should.

11:41Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I mean, for sure. Let's get a little bit detailed here. So somebody's joining us, let's say, and they find themselves in this position. They are squarely in the middle of the sandwich generation. Most people, I would assume, picture the season as front and center as this is a logistics problem. Schedules, doctors, money, locations, room, a to-do list that's just kind of perpetually too long. But what I'm hearing you described is something also much bigger underneath it all. You have a really interesting model also, you know, and it's this notion that this is not just a logistics management issue, but there are these four other key shifts or qualities that really enter this season of life.

12:23Jonathan Fields: Take me into this. I want to start by saying it is different for everyone. Your season of the sandwich is not going to be the same as mine. However, I think one of the things that I always tell my peers going through it or those who listen to my podcast is you have to first identify yourself as a caregiver. And a lot of people say, well, if you're thinking about this as an identity crisis, why would you want to front and center say I'm a caregiver? And I would say the first reason is because it opens up resources. It opens up resources to you, either other people sharing their experience or other organizations saying, now that we know what you are, here are the ways that we can help you.

13:17So identifying yourself as a caregiver is always step number one. None of us are one thing. We are many things. I'm a lawyer. I'm a parent. I'm a partner. I'm a daughter. So we're not taking on the one role as caretaker to the exclusion of all of our other roles. I think that's really important to think about. And how we find a way to feel permission to be who we are still while also being a caregiver. I think the one thing that you said about grief, too, is very important because it's the common thread through all of this. You're grieving not only the aging loved one, and you're watching someone who, if it were a parent, maybe was a larger-than-life figure, was your touchstone, was somebody who could provide you advice, and maybe they are no longer that person.

14:21You're also grieving the fact that maybe you don't feel as though you're the same daughter that you were. In my case, I was a caretaker for my uncle who lived here in New York City. He was gay and single, didn't have a traditional quote unquote family. And I felt like I was failing at all of the roles and the grief attached to that. Um, never feeling like you were a hundred percent in any of the roles that you were expected to fill.

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16:05Jonathan Fields: And right now, Drip Drop is offering podcast listeners 20 % off your first order. Go to dripdrop.com, promo code goodlife. That's dripdrop.com promo code goodlife for 20 % off or tap the link in the show notes. Good Life Project is sponsored by Kachaba. So I've got this morning ritual, you know, like step outside before I look at my phone, get some natural light, meditate, just be present before the day takes over. Small thing, but it changes everything downstream. Rituals like this, they're surprisingly fragile though. I was just in Chicago for a few days, you know, traveling, different bed, pack schedule, not my kitchen, and I felt it immediately.

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18:37Jonathan Fields: Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10 % off at betterhelp.com slash goodlifeproject. That's betterhelp.com slash goodlifeproject. I wonder if you also see part of the grief is the loss of the life you thought you would be living during this particular season. You hit your 50s, let's say. And there's a certain expectation. I've worked really hard. Maybe you assume that your parents would just be okay and healthy and not need extra care. And you could just kind of like largely live your life the way that you expected. And then we get there and we realize this is actually just not reality.

19:25I think you're right. I think when you think about the time in which particularly as women, the caregiving role really sort of takes shape is often at the peak of our career, the peak of our professional life. We're no longer sort of a novice or a newbie in whatever industry we're in, because let's face it, most of us work. Most of us have some kind of vocation occupation. So whatever that is, you're hitting your stride. and then a wrench is thrown in and mom or dad had a stroke. And you're trying to get people to rehab appointments and, you know, doctors and prescriptions getting filled and making sure a home care attendant shows up.

20:10And so you're at the peak of the point of your professional life and you're stymied again, right? So in the beginning, we're stymied because we don't know enough. And we're just starting out in our career. And we're trying to get our feet below us and find our balance. And when we do, the rug is pulled out.

20:30Jonathan Fields: And as we talked about earlier, the burden of caregiving in multiple different directions simultaneously one time does generally fall more often on women. And that stat that we shared earlier, that the estimated loss in income due to withdrawing from working averages close to$300 ,000, which is staggering. It is staggering. And I also think it doesn't capture the lost opportunity of income. So that statistic refers to women actually having to leave an occupation. If you think about it, Jonathan, how about all of the women that have had to forego taking on additional responsibilities or promotions or even being considered for those jobs?

21:23Right.

21:23Jonathan Fields: I mean, it's your two years from partnership and all of a sudden you find yourself having to pull back to a two-thirds schedule at a time where in theory, if you had all the freedom that you wanted, you would be working incredibly hard and showing up and taking on more things to really show that you've done the work. There are a lot of smaller things that probably are not in those statistics that remove us from eligibility for opportunity that is not measured. Exactly. And I think that as women, we've worked really hard to be counted and to take part and be part of the dialogue. And because of the way our society sees us as caretakers naturally, and because we do want to care, because we are mothers, we are daughters, and generally speaking, when it comes to roles, that is the role we're all filling.

22:25It's really hard to say no. But the stress then associated with that, because it's also not the actual tasks, Jonathan, it's the mental space. It's the constant juggling and the thought that goes into it to actually execute the plan. Right? So the other part of this is the mental health piece, and the quote, unquote, overwhelm that we feel just by being in this role.

22:57Jonathan Fields: Do you see this show up in the form of loneliness in any meaningful way? Because, you know, you would say, well, in theory, I'm now interacting with more people than ever before, and I'm being looked to by more people than ever before. But I would imagine also that you could still feel very alone in the role that you've assumed. You know, loneliness is absolutely one of the sort of emotions that is identified pretty universally among those of us in the sandwich because we feel overwhelmed and we feel, as we pointed out, grief for who we were and what our life should be or what we thought it should be.

23:41and yet you love the person that you're providing the care to. So to complain about it to anyone else listening, it sounds terrible, right? And so I think what happens is we keep it all in for fear of sort of looking bad to the outside world. And it could be really lonely not getting those feelings out and saying how we actually feel for fear of people judging us and thinking, well, you're not a good daughter, you're not a good mom, you're not a good partner. So holding all of those emotions in can really cause the loneliness. You become an island.

24:27Jonathan Fields: I would imagine it becomes really important to find the people in your life where you can have those open, honest, vulnerable conversations and feel seen and supported. That's one set of conversations. There's another set of conversations that I think are really important for us to talk about. The critical conversations that need to be had often with parents or the older folks that we're caring for, but rarely ever are had. Or with siblings about like, what are we going to do if and when or how? The ones almost no person listening or watching has probably had. What are those conversations and why are these conversations so hard for us to have?

25:13There are a few reasons. I think when there is a diagnosis, Jonathan, and there's a health event, one would think that would be the most organic and natural time to have a conversation about what's next. What should we do? What do you want? But because we love the person that we might be caring for, providing the care to, we often find ourselves in the role of cheerleader. So, for example, you have a loved one that's diagnosed with cancer and it's scary and they're dealing with doctors and tests and exams. They're facing their own mortality. They're facing perhaps their own disability. it's not so easy as an adult child to raise your hand and say, let's talk about when you're going to die.

26:03Let's talk about that. Your role is to be, we got this. You know, even when you think about the context of, you know, fighting cancer, for example, it's this front of being positive and having a good mindset and in a battle. So to then flip the switch and say, yeah, I mean, I believe you're going to be okay, but let's talk about when you're not is really hard to do. I think the other thing is none of us really believe we're going to die. And that's the other faction, right? Even when faced with our own mortality, we know intellectually that everyone's going to die. But there is sort of a collective denial about our own mortality, our own fallibility, the fact that we will all get older and age and require care.

26:55And then let's throw in family dynamics, right? And not everybody has the ideal relationship with their parents or their siblings. things. And so when something like aging happens, or a health event happens, no one is their best self. So that's the time you're going to have the conversation that no one wants to have. It's really, really hard. So my best advice is, it's not one conversation, guys. It can be a series of conversations over time. So you don't have to tackle it all on Tuesday at six o 'clock when you sit down for dinner and you invite mom and dad over to talk about whether or not they should move into an assisted living facility.

27:39I think these conversations should happen over time. And the trigger for the conversation could be any number of things, but it's got to start from a place of love and a place of concern, not of judgment, not of fear, and hopefully not during a time of crisis. Yeah.

28:02Jonathan Fields: And that last part, I think, is just is really important because very few of us are at our best in those moments, you know, but if you can create the safety and the stillness and the openness to start to have these conversations, how do I want to be treated? What decisions do I want to have made on my behalf if I'm not easily able to make them? What do I want the future to look like and not look like? Incredibly difficult things to talk about. But I would imagine, I imagine you've seen this much more doable to do in a more rational and even keeled way long before there's a crisis where these things are real and imminent than in the actual moment of.

28:48Absolutely. Having the luxury of time gives you more options. So if you think about the house being on fire, sometimes we can put the fire out. Sometimes we can save the house, we can save the structure. But often there's a lot of rebuilding that has to be done, and it might not look exactly the same. Whereas if you have a sprinkler system that is ready to go, the moment smoke starts, you know that everything is going to be okay. So the luxury of time does give you more options, number one. And number two, the conversation can be one of empowerment, as opposed to tell me, you know, when I can take over your checkbook.

29:29Instead, it's mom, dad, aunt, uncle. Tell me who you want to be in charge so that when it does happen, if it does happen, the people that you've chosen to be in charge are the ones in charge, whether that's a health care decision or a financial decision, because those are also very different skills. And so thinking about the people that you want in place to make health care decisions could be very different than the person that you want in place to make financial decisions. And don't you want to be the one choosing the people?

30:01Jonathan Fields: Do you see the dynamic where it's actually aging parents who actually really do want to have this conversation and the kids want nothing to do with it because you don't want to accept your parents' mortality? I do see that. I think it depends on what the parent's life experience has been. I think when I see that most often, Jonathan, is when they had gone through it with their own parents and they know how it feels to be on the other side. And, you know, when we're parents, we always think about our kids, no matter if our kids are eight or 28 or 48, you want to make it easier for your children than you had it.

30:42So the parents that are willing to sort of enter into a dialogue related to these long-term care decisions are the ones that generally didn't have their own parents in a position to be prepared. Yeah.

30:59Jonathan Fields: And so they know the pain of being in that position. Exactly. Yeah. And so the blessing of time is also in part, you have a longer window to sit with that and to have conversations and to negotiate and to whatever it is that you may do and to find common ground rather than everybody sits down in a room for four hours on a Saturday in an urgent time and you're trying to actually all find a way to be okay and get what you need from this moment in a ridiculously short amount of time. It's so true. I think if you reflect in your own family structure or friends that have lots of siblings, rarely are the siblings so similar that they would approach any problem similarly.

31:51So everyone has a different lens in which they're seeing that situation. And then you add to it, every sibling has a different relationship with their parent. And because of that, they're going to respond differently, react differently. And so having lead time, as you put it, to allow everyone to kind of settle into those decisions, because the other part of this, and I'm going to go back to it, is identity. we're all shifting our identity within the family unit during this time too right so a child quote unquote adult child is perhaps taking a more authoritative role a management role where they normally look to their parent to take on that role so you're thinking about a health care issue anticipatory grief of losing the person fulfilling a different role within the family structure You know, you're not the goofy younger brother anymore.

32:52You happen to be an accountant who actually knows quite a bit about money. And so you're going to have to get your sister, your older sister, who's always bossed you around to listen to you about why it's important that the financial advisor be involved, right? So you're, you have a time of crisis and you have all of these identities sort of shifting and morphing in real time. And then you add to it spouses, because they are also living in the houses with those siblings, and they have opinions, and their own family experiences are bleeding into the advice that they're providing to your brother or your sister.

33:29So it's a recipe for family conflict. I would imagine, especially because if you have two siblings, so you've got three kids, right?

33:39Jonathan Fields: Each one of those kids is going to have a very different relationship with the parents. Always. With all of the good and oftentimes all of the bad and the struggle and the dissonance, that all has to be, it all gets folded into these decisions. Maybe one of you has a fantastic relationship with the parents. You've made peace with them. They've made peace with you. You understand them really well. And the other's been estranged for years. and before they can make any decisions, they either want nothing to do with it or they're like, I need to actually figure out how to reconcile before I can actually let any of this move forward.

34:18Jonathan Fields: I can't even think about anything. So it's got to be so complex in these moments. I'm wondering also, what about kids? If you're in the middle, you're the sandwich caregiver, you're caring for aging parents or people who are in your care who are older, even if it's not your parents. And maybe you also have kids who are younger or in their 20s or in their 30s who deeply love these folks also. So there's a whole different set of conversations that you're going to need to and probably want to have with them, which is a completely different layer of context and emotion and navigation. It is. And if you think about it, Jonathan, most of our parenting comes into play through modeling, through our own behavior rather than our words.

35:07And how you react and act in those incredibly stressful and crisis-driven situations are being observed by these humans that you're doing your best to raise. And so you're trying to be present as a parent and still be there for them while they are witnessing perhaps, you know, the loss of capacity, let's say, and the grief that goes along with that. And also not having your undivided attention as the parent. And often the children that are involved in the sandwich, if you will, are having to be more independent than perhaps they would have otherwise because your attention is now needed 10%, 15%, 20 % of the time to advocate for your mom or your dad.

36:06Jonathan Fields: Talk to me then about, because if you're joining us and you're either seeing this coming or maybe you're in this moment right now and you're not alone saying, yeah, I feel all of this. Or you're at a point where at some point we're all going to be in some way, shape, or form in this moment. It sounds wildly complicated.

36:30Jonathan Fields: Do we have to do this alone? Should we do this alone? Are there people who can help us through this? And if so, who are they? Like, what are the roles that if we have access to them would be incredibly helpful to navigate these moments? So the answer plainly is no, we cannot do this alone. We certainly can't do it well alone. And I think having a team can really be transformational. And the team is going to look different for everyone. Where to begin is asking for help. And whether that's asking for help for the people that are around you, it's the siblings that are trying to also help mom and dad and having a division of labor when it comes to the various types of care that's needed, whether it's bill paying or physical care or making meals or driving.

37:20And it's also community resources. One of the best next steps when you're dealing with issues as it relates to aging parents is locating a care manager. A lot of people don't know what a care manager is. Sometimes they're known as geriatric care managers. Care managers are often nurses, social workers, psychologists even, that can come into a family dynamic, perhaps after a diagnosis or upon, you know, an aging loved one's sort of delay or lack of capacity or beginning to lose capacity to assess the situation as it relates to the aging loved one's home and what type of care they might need in the home, how to keep them safe.

38:10if they have to move out of their home, if they don't have the right doctors around them, if they're not on the right medications. So having this quarterback as the care manager can be really helpful to a family because that person can be an incredible resources to connect you to the other resources. I think the other person that can really be helpful, particularly if you have some kind of assets is the financial advisor getting on the same page with that individual to find out what is the financial landscape what can my parents afford am i going to have to contribute because if you know off the bat that there are insufficient resources then you're going to have to look at public benefits and public benefits like medicaid can also provide a tremendous amount of care depending on the state that you're residing in.

39:08Jonathan Fields: So you've got, starts with family, then it moves to community. Then you've introduced the idea of sort of like a professional care manager, financial person to really sort of like look at it and understand what is available. What about the role of somebody, for lack of a better word, as a mediator. So often the care manager plays that role, believe it or not, Jonathan, because they are quite familiar with difficult family dynamics and can be the buffer. You know, the other thing I'll add is often you need the legal authority to help advocate for your aging loved ones. So making sure that you have the right documents in place for mom or dad so that if they don't have the ability to advocate for themselves, whether in a healthcare setting or a financial setting, that someone else has the ability to raise their hand and manage it for them.

40:10So having the care manager, having the money person, and having the legal authority can really provide you with the good sort of foundation.

40:23Jonathan Fields: And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Goodbye Project is sponsored by Wild Alaskan Company. So, you know, the older I get, the less tolerance I have for things I don't actually deliver. And that includes food. I used to grab kind of whatever looked good at the grocery store. Fish in a plastic wrapper. No real idea where it came from, who caught it, or how long it had been just kind of sitting there. And you could taste that in it. There's a flatness to fish that has been handled too many times by the time it reaches you. Wild Alaskan Company, it completely changed that for me.

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41:28Jonathan Fields: The Koho Salmon has been my go-to for a while now. It just cooks beautifully and with almost nothing added to it. I often just a little bit of olive oil and some sea salt. And if for any reason, it's not everything you hope. They back it with a 100 % satisfaction money-back guarantee. Your first box is completely risk-free. Go to wildalaskan.com slash goodlife for$35 off your first order of premium wild-caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com slash goodlife for$35 off your first order. Thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode. Good Life Project is sponsored by Orkin. Now, before we get back, we have a message from Ashley, the mosquito about Orkin.

42:10Jonathan Fields: Hey, besties. Hope all of you are high-key so excited for summer. It's literally giving all of us mosquitoes life. So we thought we'd help everybody make the most of it before Orkin pros try to ruin our fun. Remember, if you have standing water on your lawn from the pool or the sprinkler, let it sit there. The more the merrier. And when there's standing water, there'll be plenty more mosquitoes. Next up is a bit of a hot take. We're so hype on it. Let mosquitoes inside. What could go wrong? Just let us inside, please. Thanks. Love you. Finally, the number one rule this summer is do not under any circumstances speak to anybody from Orkin.

42:46Jonathan Fields: That's literally so cringe and will ruin the vibe of any get together we might be having. Take it from Mosquito Orkin Pros know literally everything about us, period. Don't visit orkin.com for a free estimate today. Good Life Project is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. So here's something I find genuinely fascinating. the places where exceptional design shows up where you least expect it where someone decided that an everyday object something completely ordinary deserve the same level of intention and craft as anything else in your life that's exactly what Kohler is doing with their smart toilets their veil smart toilet doesn't look anything like what you'd picture when you hear the word toilet it's sculptural considered the kind of design that makes you do a double take and the experience is designed to match, elevated, personal, quieter than you'd expect, the kind of thing that transforms your morning routine without you even fully realizing it.

43:40Jonathan Fields: That's what good design does, and Kohler has been doing it, refusing to accept that every day has to be ordinary for over 150 years. Discover Kohler Smart Toilets at Kohler.com. So I would imagine that a lot of folks are familiar with the role of some sort of financial advisor, whether it's an accountant, broker, wealth manager, whatever it may be. And a care manager, it's probably very new to a lot of people joining us. How do you even begin to find that person? Are there qualifications or licensing? Or like, how do you find one? And then how do you know that this person is actually the right person for you?

44:24So they are licensed. There are licensed care managers. And what I will tell you is that the best resource is from other people, knowing what their experience is. The other great referral opportunity is through the lawyer that is working on the documents for your parents. I happen to practice in this area of law, and I can tell you, I definitely know who the good care managers are. And then I think the other part of it, Jonathan, is it has to be a personality match within the family. And what I mean by that is that there are families that have sort of less experience in this area, and they're going to need a lot more handholding, or perhaps the kids don't live locally.

45:13And so the care manager is going to have to take a much more active role. And it's really important that that care manager have an excellent rapport with your aging loved one. So maybe it's not so important that you don't love him or her, but if your mom or dad does, and you feel like they're being listened to, then it could be the right match. We have to make sure that the person is a licensed professional. You can't just hold yourself out as a geriatric care manager. There are certifications for geriatric care managers, the Alzheimer's Association or the Parkinson's Foundation or the American Cancer Society.

45:50They are excellent resources for professionals who are licensed and vetted. We call that supportive care in my world, which are all of the other things outside of the actual medical care.

46:01Jonathan Fields: That makes sense. As you mentioned, you are an attorney who has practiced in this area for quite a long time. When does somebody bring in a lawyer? Well, when you turn 18, Jonathan, your parents can't do things for you, right? So let's start back there, when you have a child that has graduated high school and they're on to their next thing, whatever that is, once they're 18, they need advanced directives. And those advanced directives are powers of attorney and healthcare documents to say who can speak for them. And so if you think about your aging parents, it's really important that they have those documents Because at the other end, there's a possibility that they will not have the requisite mental capacity to manage their own affairs.

46:56So it's really important to have those documents in place before they have capacity issues. And so when people say, when is the right time to have those documents? I say 18. And I'm only half kidding. But let's say you are in middle life and your parents haven't done this kind of planning. I think going back to what we touched on briefly before is that we want to know what our parents want. And so maybe putting the ball in their court and saying, this is the way for you to maintain control, mom or dad. You get to choose. Do you want me to manage the money? Do you want my brother? Do you want us to take it on jointly?

47:34Who's the right person in the health care situation, mom? Is it my sister who panics when she sees blood or is it my brother who happens to be a nurse and is much more logical? So I think framing it for parents in a way to empower them is the right sort of approach in that regard. Because I think a lot of parents come to my office worried about the surrender of control and what it signifies to them, what's next in life. And discussions about lack of capacity are scary. So reframing the conversation into an exercise in maintaining control can sometimes scratch the itch and make people feel a little better.

48:27Jonathan Fields: Yeah, that makes sense. I almost wonder, I'm curious whether you see this, if having these conversations and working with a skilled lawyer to actually create the documents that you need so early that the concerns that you're talking about, the inevitabilities you're talking about, feel so far down the road from the moment of the conversation that it's just so not real that a lot of the emotion is diffused if you actually have it so much earlier. because it's not like, hey, I'm seeing things happening. I'm concerned. You might not have much time. Let's get the documents in order. It's like, look, this isn't even on the horizon, but it's just a smart thing to do.

49:06Jonathan Fields: So why don't we get this out of the way? Does that land? It absolutely does, Jonathan. You're 100 % right. It's so nice to be able to say, just in case this happens. It's a much harder conversation when somebody has just been diagnosed with something, because they can know what the trajectory is. And often it's a scary journey. So doing something far in advance, when there isn't anything looming, can actually be pretty liberating. Yeah, that makes sense. I want to wrap with, kind of circle us around to one other part of the conversation, because a lot of what we're talking about, it can seem scary, it can seem heavy, it can seem complicated, it can seem sad and frightening.

49:53Jonathan Fields: Is there another side to this season? You're in the sandwich generation. You're giving care in all directions. Your identity is changing. So much about everything is changing. Is there a grace side to this? Is there an opening side to this in some way that you've seen. There absolutely is a beautiful side to this. One of the great things about caregiving is it's a reflection of your love for the person. We often don't have the time based on our busy schedules to spend that much time with our aging parents. When you're a well-oiled machine and mom and dad were popping in to provide some after school care to your son or your daughter, we often didn't have that quality time with our parent.

50:45So when you become the caregiver, in some ways, you're forced to spend more time than you otherwise had before. So those moments and that time can be really meaningful. I think for many adult children too, who have had difficult relationships with their parent, it provides them an opportunity to reconcile in some way or make peace with what the relationship is. You know, when my own dad passed away, who I was a long distant caregiver to, I remember talking to a family friend who was a priest and he said, what a beautiful thing it was that your father was able to usher you into this world and you were able to usher him out.

51:34And I think about that a lot in caregiving, that we are sort of ushering people through whatever it is that ails them and providing them the love and the support and the care that they need. The other great part about it, Jonathan, which we touched on was the modeling piece and having our own children see how we are to our parents and showing them what it is to be a quote, good daughter or a good son or a loving advocate for someone that you love.

52:05Jonathan Fields: Yeah, that lands. I would imagine also that so often relationships are filled with a lot of noise. And as we get closer to the sensation that we don't have a lot of time left, that a lot of that noise drops away and the things that truly do matter fill the space. I've seen it and I felt it where you realize what is the heart of the matter. And as you put it, the noise kind of falls away. It allows you to be in some ways your best self and it allows your parent to show the best of themselves to you. And there can be a tremendous amount of forgiveness in that role and letting things go. It does provide the opportunity, particularly for those difficult relationships, to be healed, particularly after the parent is no longer here.

53:01Jonathan Fields: As you described that, what came to mind is the phrase that I've heard elsewhere when you're in the final moments with somebody where there are these four things that you're invited to say. thank you. I love you. I forgive you. Do you forgive me? And I wonder if we said some versions of that or had some conversations of that long before that moment, how much better so much of our time together might be. I think you're right. I will also say, and just to add, I think it's really important to think about the adult children who can't provide the care because the relationship was so difficult and could in some cases be abusive.

53:44And I also think it's important to allow the grace for those adult children who can't do those things. You know, there is a societal expectation that we will provide the care, but there are so many different ways to care. And I think you have to also be kind to yourself and think about what your own capabilities are going back to identity, Jonathan, where we started.

54:10Jonathan Fields: I so appreciate you weaving that in because I think you're right. The reality of every relationship is gonna be profoundly different and we should make space for all of that. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? For me, I want my family, particularly my children and my husband, to think that I've done the best that I can and I've helped people along the way. And so to me, living a good life means that I've made a positive impact on the people that I love and they've seen goodness through my life in that regard.

54:57Thank you.

54:58Jonathan Fields: So let's talk about some of the big ahas and actionable takeaways from this convo. One of the things that I'm really thinking about is how much of the sandwich generation experience happens kind of beneath the surface in places we almost never name. Candice gave us language for that. The four shifts, identity, grief, ownership, and loneliness. None of them are about logistics. They are about who you are while the logistics are just kind of happening. And the grief piece especially. Grief for who your parents used to be. Grief for the life that maybe you expected to be living at this point. grief for yourself inside the role.

55:34Jonathan Fields: That landed in a really powerful way. The other thing that I'm thinking about, she said, it's not one conversation. The conversation about what your parents want, what happens if they cannot speak for themselves, who's in charge of what, it doesn't have to happen on a Tuesday at six over dinner with everyone present. It can and maybe should start small. It can start from love rather than crisis. And starting early doesn't mean anticipating loss just means giving the people you love the power to choose. If you're in this season right now or you can see it coming, take one thing from today. You cannot do this well alone.

56:11Jonathan Fields: Find your people, your care manager, the financial person, the lawyer. Start there. And hey, before you leave next week, I'm sitting down with Dr. Joshua Coleman, a psychologist who spent years studying something that's really reshaping families in ways that most of us have not fully reckoned with, family estrangement, why it's rising, what's actually driving it, and what to do if you're on either side of it. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss this conversation. And do me a quick favor, share this episode with just one person who needs to hear it.

56:46Jonathan Fields: This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Troy Young, Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already, please go ahead and follow us wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss a conversation. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

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