The Upside of Oversharing, and the Surprising Downside of Restraint | Leslie John

0:00Jonathan Fields: So how many things crossed your mind today that you just chose not to say out loud? A feeling you swallowed, a compliment you almost gave, a moment where you want to be honest but pulled back, or maybe a fear or concern you had but stifled it. We spend so much energy worrying about oversharing, but here's what's fascinating. New research shows the far bigger problem, the one quietly doing real damage to our relationships, our health, and our sense of belonging, is actually all the stuff we're not saying. My guest today is Leslie John. She's a professor at Harvard Business School and the author of a new book called Revealing.

0:37Jonathan Fields: And her research is honestly a little uncomfortable because it shows just how much we hold back without even realizing it and what it's actually costing us. In this conversation, we get into a simple daily practice that makes you aware of everything you're filtering. We talk about why revealing hard truths actually builds trust, the surprising difference between two types of openness and when each one is safe to use, and why being certain you quote know your partner might actually be the thing that's keeping you apart. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

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2:42Jonathan Fields: This message is brought to you by Apple Card. AppleCard members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for AppleCard in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject to credit approval, AppleCard issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at AppleCard.com. You make this really interesting argument. um we often hear concerns about quote oversharing yeah both in person and online i think a lot of focus lately actually probably in the last decade or so has been online like where's the line there you argue that a bigger an equal if not bigger problem is what you would describe as too little sharing so take me into this yeah i mean again and again i keep asking myself what if we shared a

3:41Leslie John: little bit more a lot of the time. And writing the book, I actually, it's one thing to know the science, it's another to live it. And it wasn't until I wrote the book that I started actually doing the things and doing is believing because I would kind of test myself and try being a little bit more open. And so often, like nine times out of 10, it was a good call or even more. I think though, we're really concerned about oversharing because when we do cross the line, when we say something a little bit cringy, a little edgy, we get immediate negative social feedback often, right? Like we see the look on people's surprise or worse on their faces.

4:20Leslie John: And then we, maybe I'm just making this me search, but maybe we ruminate about it and we regret. And then we have this disclosure hangover where that, you know, that gut wrenching, oh my, the replay of what did I say? And that's valid, but people can cringe and they can admire you at the same time. And so many of these times when we code it as oversharing, there's often an upside, but we fail to see the upside. And as I was writing the book, I was reflecting on some of these, like, my most TMI moments in life, which include telling senior scholars my most embarrassing story ever. It also includes insulting a senior professor in a job interview.

4:59Leslie John: So these moments of, like, what did I say? And both of those, all of the ones I talk about in the book, had redemption on the other side. And the core part of the redemption was in relationships. So the people that I overshared with, they like respected me. They trusted me. They revealed to me in turn, they became my close mentors and friends.

5:22Jonathan Fields: Yeah. You did this really interesting. You were one of the co-investigators in this study that was published, I guess, a decade ago now in 2016. So I'm guessing you did the research in 2016.

5:31Leslie John: Oh, wow. That doesn't feel like a decade ago. Oh, my gosh. Right. Yeah.

5:35Jonathan Fields: It feels like equally relevant today. Yeah. But it was really interesting and kind of fun. Yeah. Yeah. So take me into this. Yeah.

5:42Leslie John: So this is one of these aha moments in my professional life where I did a thought experiment. So listeners, if you were in this study, I would ask you which of two people you would rather date. And I'm laughing because what I'm going to tell you is some kind of outrageous question that you hypothetically asked them. So suppose that you asked one of the prospective suitors whether he had ever had any STDs. and suitor A says, you know, I've had so many STDs, I can't even keep track. I've had all the STDs. Meanwhile, the other person that you asked the same question to says, I'm not answering that question.

6:22Leslie John: Just end of story. And okay, so you probably don't want to choose either. But if I force you to choose one, who would you choose? And again and again, people chose the revealer, The person who admitted to these really unsavory things relative to someone who abstained and held back the hider. And, you know, it's not 100 % of people that prefer this, but in general, we'd rather date someone. We'd rather hire someone who reveals than someone who conceals. And this was, of course, really interesting in this study because it's like admitting to unsavory things. And what I discovered is that.

6:57Jonathan Fields: And by the way, there are a whole bunch of other questions that would raise eyebrows also. Oh, yeah.

7:03Leslie John: The STD one, I feel like, is my own personal phobia. I don't on that, but it's like insurance fraud, stealing, lying, cheating, peeking at someone's email. It kind of ranged the whole gap, all these bad behaviors, some of them illegal. And yeah, it's not just limited to this one. And so what I realized is that the reason this happens is because self-disclosure revealing sensitive things is the way we forge bonds with others. It's precisely because of the risk, because it's sensitive, that we get the reward. Because when we share something sensitive, and this only happens with sensitive things, right?

7:46Leslie John: We are showing that we trust the person because by revealing, we're implicitly saying, I trust you not to make a fool out of me. And when we do that, it's a powerful signal and the person responds by trusting us. And that's, as we know, the kernel of all human flourishing human relationships is trust. And that's so important that like, I don't even think it's exaggerating to say we're hardwired to prefer the revealer, right? because it's so important to really our existence that someone who abstains, they're very off-putting and we don't trust them. Yeah.

8:22Jonathan Fields: I mean, that trust, right? It's the heartbeat of everything. As you're describing that, you know, that's sort of like the legendary study from Arthur Aaron's out of Stony Brook years ago came to mind where everybody knows this as the 36 questions. Exactly. Yes. It was published in the New York Times and the love piece was the biggest piece ever, But it was fundamentally, it was this notion that he took two strangers, like two students, put them in a lab for 45 minutes. They didn't know each other. And he had three sets of questions that started fairly superficial.

8:50Leslie John: Yep.

8:51Jonathan Fields: You know, anybody would be okay. And then like each one went a little deeper, required a little more vulnerability, a little more sort of like really going there. and by the end of 45 minutes, often people reported feeling closer to this prior stranger than they were to roommates or friends that they had had for years. And I think it really, it's a lot of what you're talking about here.

9:14Leslie John: Yeah, it's totally. I mean, Arthur Aaron, that is the core seminal study, I think, showing this to your point. But it's interesting because even though this is true, we don't do it enough. Like we don't open up enough. You know, and one of the things I realized as I was writing the book and like doing the research is that I think a core problem is actually that we don't even realize the opportunities to share more. So one of the things I started doing was these daily audits where I would kind of in my mind, sometimes on paper because I'm a nerd, keep track of the things I shared. And then the things that came to mind, but I did not share, which brought more awareness to all of the times I'm holding back.

10:01Leslie John: It's just such an instinct to default to silence that we don't even realize we're doing it. So let me just indulge me and I'll just do the beginning of a day. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to do some real-time data collection here. I have a column on my little notepad, said and unsaid. So I'm going to keep track, as I tell you, my boring day in the life of Leslie John. So I wake up, I roll over in bed and I say, good morning, Collie, to my hubby. What I don't say is I'm exhausted. I slept like crap. And when I don't sleep well, I can't regulate my emotions. So you're going to need kid gloves, Collin.

10:42Leslie John: I don't say any of that. We get up, we're standing in the bathroom brushing our teeth. And what I think, I look at myself, I think, Like, geez, I feel older than I thought I would. And I'm in my 40s. How come I still have acne? Like, I don't say that. I think those things. And so I'm going to stop there. I won't go further to torture you more. But it's, what is that? Five to one. Just, we're not even at breakfast yet. We're not even done brushing your teeth. And, you know, the thing is, like, the old me would not have even coded these as opportunities to share, right? And yet, so my point isn't that we should share everything that's on our mind always, but my point is that we should consider sharing more than we do.

11:28Leslie John: And when I started doing these exercises, so if we try to do the unsaid, like say the unsaid here, well, first of all, if I had just told him I had slept badly, that would have been a game changer because then the rest of the day he would know that he's got to be gentle with me and basically not ask me to make decisions, for example, because I can't make decisions even on a good day, but when I sleep deprived. So that, right, the snapping of, or like, then we see a missed opportunity for intimacy, like in the bathroom. Like if I said how I feel about what I'm seeing in the mirror, you know, he would have understood me better.

12:07Leslie John: And being understood by your partner, being known for who you really are, is like the most important thing in an intimate relationship. Like that's one of the largest sources of closeness. Right. And to have that, you have to tell the person, though, they can't read your mind. Maybe we would have laughed too. Right. Like joked about. I don't know. But it would have been better than keeping those things in my head. When you talk about then the the harm done by undersharing, what are the what are the common harms that you see?

12:41Jonathan Fields: Like because somebody is probably like, oh, like, so I didn't share whatever. It's not a big deal. Right. Right. Like it is causing harm and probably to us just internally, emotionally, psychologically, but also relationally. So, yeah, walk me through that.

12:53Leslie John: Right. OK. So the one category is, I would say, like, well-being. and I think for me one of the studies that struck me there I'm a boy mom and I so my boys are four and five and there was this study that what they did was they videotaped children's faces like three and four year olds preschoolers as the children were watching a scary movie because they wanted to see how much emotion what how much do the kids let express let their faces express versus hold back in their faces. They also measured galvanic skin response, which is, of course, the sweat on your hands, how physiologically stressed they were.

13:34Leslie John: And what they found is that the children who were expressive, who did not hold back their feelings on their faces, they were less physiologically stressed.

13:43Jonathan Fields: Oh, that's interesting. Like it's a release valve.

13:45Leslie John: Exactly. And so the children that were holding it in were more stressed. The thing that really shook me as a boy mom is that by the time they track the kids and by the time the kids get to kindergarten, this is like a year or two later, there's now gender differences where the boys are filtering. Keep it in. Don't show emotion. Totally. And that is literally unhealthy. But the other is a missed connection. It's a missed opportunity of relationships. And I think that in some ways is even harder because you don't realize the missed opportunities, right? Like when you overshare, you feel the sting.

14:23Leslie John: But when you undershare -

14:25Jonathan Fields: And you see the looks off it. Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. The sting as I do a dagger, like I'm mixing.

14:30Leslie John: Right. But when you never, you don't code it as a mistake because you don't get any negative social feedback. And so, and that's part of the reason for these daily audits to me is I'm like, okay, make, these are decisions we're making, like it's a choice to not say something, right? That's a choice. So yeah, the misconnection is a, by contrast or by the corollary of that is that when we do share more, we get stronger friendships, stronger relationships, better colleagueships. I've even found like leaders at work when leaders reveal a little more, like when leaders reveal some of the weaknesses they have or some of the things they're working on, like I'm working on my organizational skills.

15:12Leslie John: This is true. I'm outside of this screen. There's like a disaster zone everywhere. But when you're a little upfront about that as a leader, you're actually more influential. So there's like all kinds of benefits. But again, part of the issue is that they're like missed opportunities are the harms often.

15:30Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I remember, oh God, it was probably a decade ago. I was actually interviewing the commander of a nuclear submarine. but it wasn't the set that he was supposed to be assigned to. So he kind of showed up without knowing the vessel that he had studied to know. But the whole his training was command and control. Show up, be strong, be confident, command and control. Don't let anyone question you. And literally got into a situation in the sub where he didn't know the vessel and he was giving orders that came really close to grounding it. And nobody was refuting. Nobody was, even though everybody who was on there knew that this was going to happen until it was last minute.

16:14Jonathan Fields: And finally, somebody was like, we have to pull back. And it shook him so much that he basically, he said, okay, so here's the new rule on this vessel. You know, like, I don't, you all know more than me. And I need you to tell me. Like, speak up. Tell me what's going on. And it completely changed not only the trajectory of it. Actually, it was the worst performing fleet. And it turned into the top performing group of people. And literally because one person was so stoic in his training was, you stand in your conviction, even if you have no idea whether it's right or wrong. And everybody follows that.

16:58Jonathan Fields: um and so yeah yeah repercussions of what you're saying yeah depending on your leader your leadership and what the stakes are can be profound totally and you know that's

17:10Leslie John: you know where my man is is the those plane crashes right where you had the right that where the pilot the co-pilot doesn't isn't empowered to speak up and um and it really is you know like people's own lives are on the line on the line and it's that hard but But when a leader, you know, there have been studies that have actually randomized leaders to either say, please give me honest feedback, I can take it, versus modeling that they can take it by saying this is what I'm working on. So one approach is to this standard like assuaging, I can take it. The other is to model that I can take it. And obviously the way I'm setting it up, you know what the answer is.

17:48Leslie John: Like the modeling is the thing that gets actually the constructive, actionable feedback. And yet leaders, that's what we do. We say to people, I can take it, but that's not the right approach. The right approach is actually, or a good approach is to say, here are the things I'm working on. Then that makes them comfortable.

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20:22Jonathan Fields: That applies in a family dynamic, too. It probably applies in a friendship dynamic or in a school dynamic, right?

20:28Leslie John: You know, that's something that I've been working on recently in my own family of like saying to my kids, you know, I've disappointed you. Like I messed up. And the first time, or there was one moment a few weeks ago, actually, where I was really, really stressed out. And my son, he like saw it. And my natural is to be like, I'm great. Like everything's great. Like and deflect, right? That's what we do as parents. But then I was like, wait, you know, writing this book, it really did change me. And I thought, wait, I should think about this. Maybe I should share. And then I told him, he's five years old, but I said, look, mommy, like I had a big day and I was really busy and I am feeling stressed.

21:09Leslie John: But like, I'm also happy to be here and get to hug you. I feel better already. Or like whatever I said, but I like to think I said it in an age appropriate way, but I shared it. And I want to do more of that because I think that's important for kids where as parents, a lot of the times our mental model is like, especially with small children. I don't know if it changes in the teenage years. I haven't gotten there yet. But like, it's like, if you had a bad day, you can't say that to your five-year-old, but maybe you can. And maybe it's helpful because, you know, if the kid only sees you rosy all the time, then when the kid feels stressed, then the kid might be like, I'm, there's something wrong with me.

21:44Leslie John: Right? So. Yeah.

21:47Jonathan Fields: No, I love that. And I so agree. And as a dad of a kid who's in her mid-20s now. Yeah.

21:54Leslie John: So tell me what happens. Tell me the rest.

21:56Jonathan Fields: It changes every other second. Yeah, exactly. But I remember having those thoughts when our daughter was a lot younger. And I'm like, okay, so what's the appropriate age? Maybe we each have to figure out where is the line for us, for our kid, their unique abilities or presence or the way that they are. And us in how much we disclose with them and how much we don't disclose with them. And neither of us are adolescent psychologists. this. But it would make sense that kids are going to model what they see their parents doing. And if all they see them doing is continually withholding anything but the rosy, you know, Pollyanna type of thing, they're going to start doing that.

22:43Jonathan Fields: And we don't want them to.

22:44Leslie John: Right. Right. Because there, I mean, the science is super clear, right? That withholding is physiologically stressful. It's bad for emotional and physical well-being. Yeah.

22:56Jonathan Fields: And eventually our relationships. Yeah. So I guess this gets on my curiosity, right? Which is, how do we identify? I think a lot of us are much more comfortable identifying, like oversharing too much information. Like, whoa, that's too much. Like you described, you can often just see the immediate visceral reaction to that. How do we know when we're under disclosing, when we're sharing too little information?

23:22Leslie John: Yeah, I think, well, I think it's really hard to know unless you try. So to me, I think revealing well, revealing wisely is a skill. And like all skills, it requires practice, experimentation, self-reflection to really hone and master. And so what I am doing personally and what I would encourage people to do is experiment with being a little bit more open because you don't know where the line is unless you get there or even pass it sometimes. So if you never feel like you've crossed it, then you're not doing it enough. You're not revealing enough because you've got further to go. So I would say occasionally, if you feel like you're oversharing, that's a good thing because you know you're testing where the line is, right?

24:19Leslie John: One way of explaining this is the example that I got from an amazing negotiation professor. Her name is Linda Babcock. She's written books on especially women and negotiating. And what she said to me once was that she said, Leslie, if you always get what you ask for, then you're not asking for enough. And that really stuck with me. And it also, it helped me to reframe kind of failures. If someone says no, then that's great because you know that you're asking for enough. So if sometimes you feel like you've crossed the line, then you can celebrate that a little bit because you know that you're revealing enough.

24:59Leslie John: You're not leaving opportunities on the table. Like a question I ask, are there areas where we typically undershare? And one of those areas I think is in our intimate close relationships. The research indicates that in close relationships with our spouses, our intimate partners, it's true that we do know them better over time. We know their thoughts and feelings more with time. But one of the problems is that our confidence that we know their thoughts and feelings massively outpaces our actual knowledge. So we're overconfident in how much we know our spouses.

25:35Jonathan Fields: So what's an example of that?

25:37Leslie John: Like, for example, when my husband comes home from work and he looks a bit huffy, I am like, oh, that's because he had a hard work day. I like that's what I think in my mind. But really, he's worrying about paperwork for pre-K enrollment or something like completely different. But like, it's a very insidious thing. We actually don't even realize it when we're doing it, this overconfidence. But so when if I'm overconfident that I know what he's thinking and feeling, then I assume things and I don't ask. And that's the problem. That's the source of so much discord. And that's why sometimes we wake up 10, 15 years later and we don't feel known and we don't feel like we know our partner because we stop sharing.

26:21Leslie John: So the undersharing is like, I can pretty confidently say we should share our feelings more with our loved ones. That sounded like a robot, but like, we yeah, we should share our feelings more with our loved ones. Another, because it's by sharing our feelings that they can really understand us for who we really are. And when they understand us for who we really are, that's when we feel close to them. So just to play that out, imagine, okay, so suppose I have low self-esteem and in one world, my husband Colin, he has idealized or views of me. He's like, oh, you're a goddess. You're always confident.

27:06Leslie John: Okay, so that's one world. The other world, he's like, yeah, I recognize sometimes you struggle with self-esteem. So the second, knowing me, even my flaws or my weaknesses, that makes me feel loved. more so than if he has a grand eyes view of me. Why? Because if you think about it, knowing that even though he knows I have smelly feet, like even though he knows that I am insecure sometimes and he still loves me, like that's so powerful, right? And to get there though, you have to share your real feelings.

27:39Jonathan Fields: Yeah. And there's risk in that. Exactly. It's like you were told not to. and often the recommendations are gendered also, especially in different family cultures. I know, I know, I know. So when we're thinking about somebody's joining us for this conversation, they're like, okay, so this is interesting. I've always erred on the side of not wanting to share too much because I know you can kind of get blasted or tacked forward or you don't want to be seen as, quote, that person who's taking over the conversation or just blurting out everything that nobody wants to hear. And you're really inviting us to say, okay, so like, yes, and that does exist.

28:14Jonathan Fields: It's real. And there's this other side of undersharing that says that it's actually causing harm to us too, like the holding back. In certain contexts, that probably makes a lot of sense though. So how do we, like, is there a litmus test? Are there things that we can, sure, like when we're in the moment and we're like, okay, so what's the right response here? Like, where's the line? How much do I share? How much do I not share? What's a sort of a mental checklist that we can go through?

28:46Leslie John: Yes. Okay. So I think the most important thing is reading the room. Who are you with? What's the situation? And one is like, is this a close relationship? Is this your spouse? If it's someone that is super close like that, who you really do or are working on having total emotional intimacy with, that is someone that you can tell anything to. I think increasingly in such situations, it's hard for me to think of something that is TMI. It's more a matter of the situation, right? It's like, is this the right time? Do we have little children running around? Are we sleep deprived? Is this the right time to talk about this.

29:32Leslie John: That's what I focus on in these really intimate situations. But if it's like more commonly, like when I say we benefit, we would benefit from being a little bit more open a lot of the time, what the heck does that mean? How do you enact that? So think of like our day-to-day, the many acquaintances we have. You're on the soccer field, you're standing on the sidelines with another parent, you're watching your kids play. What do you normally do in these situations? You maybe make small talk and you comment on the situation. You say, look, they're smiling. Okay, that's really boring. What does it mean?

30:06Leslie John: One thing you can ask yourself is instead of just commenting on the situation, you can think, what does this mean to me? Because when you say that, you go a level deeper. So an example here would be kids are laughing. You say, wow, they're laughing. You know, I don't remember the time I had a really good belly laugh, right? So that's a one step deeper. That's all it is. It's not like trauma dump the person beside you. But one step deeper can mean like, what does it mean to you? But still you ask, what is TMI? And you should experiment practice. What does that mean? Another little clue you can use in these things like early friendships, acquaintanceships, colleagueships is the rule of reciprocity.

30:53So are you doing all the talking?

30:57Leslie John: Are you doing all the revealing? Is this the enough about me, let's talk about me syndrome? So being aware of how much you're revealing relative to the other person, that shouldn't be very lopsided. It should be a nice, thinking back to Arthur Aaron's studies, it should be the dance of reciprocity that we want to get deeper but together. It's one person says something, the other person, you want to meet their level of vulnerability. Maybe go a little deeper, but not a lot deeper. In fact, if we go back to the Aaron's studies, a really interesting variant of that, as a nerd here, is in one of the variants, what they did was they had people, so they pair people up that don't know each other.

31:39Leslie John: And half of the pairs do the normal task of they get this list of 30 questions that increase in sensitivity. They start with what's your zodiac sign and they end with something like what's your biggest regret in life. So you go through in sequence going back and forth with the other person. With the other pairs, they did, one person did answer all the questions, one fell swoop, and then the other person did one fell swoop. So, right? It's kind of a brilliant experiment because it's the same questions that are being answered. It's just the sequencing. And what they found was that, as you can probably guess, the one fell swoopers, they didn't feel close.

32:17Leslie John: It was the back and right. So that is like, you can think of that when you're thinking, is this, am I saying too much? Or if the other person is doing it, if they're doing all the revealing, you can be assertive and reveal something yourself. But you can also, another thing that I sometimes ask myself is like, is this a relationship that I want to go deeper in? Right? Because not every relationship you want to be a lot deeper, right?

32:44Jonathan Fields: Let's take the soccer field example, because I think that's interesting, right? You're hanging out, you're at the soccer field, your kids are out there, there's a couple parents like on either side of you kind of know who each other are but not super well yeah um and you're dealing with stuff you show up you know and one parent turns to you like how are you yeah yeah yeah the instant response for everybody is fine right i'm fine right you know like oh like how's a like everything's good you know whatever i'm getting over a little cold but like everything's fine. But there's got to be a thread in a lot of us in that moment to just be like, this is a really sucky day right now.

33:26Jonathan Fields: I am dragging. I'm really struggling. I just got some really, really tough news and I'm trying to process it. And it's hard, right? Because the person next to you might be like, oh, dear God, you too? Can we talk about this? Let's get some coffee and sit down. Or they might be like, seriously, I didn't want to know. I was just being polite.

33:54Jonathan Fields: It's an interesting dance to try and do that.

33:56Leslie John: Part of this is knowing for yourself what you want to reveal and not. So sometimes knowing, being self-aware to know is talking about this thing that's this really tough meeting with my boss that I had with this stranger? Is that going to help me or not right now? Do I want to talk about this or not? And if you don't, then pivot to something else or ask them a question. That's kind of my go-to is if I don't really want to open up about something that's going on in my life, if it just doesn't feel right, if in doubt, maybe don't go there and ask them a question, maybe an upbeat question. I think that I guess my point is that, no, you don't want to like trauma dump on someone.

34:44Leslie John: But you also I think we don't appreciate just how much people everybody's going through something. And if you just you get to the soccer field and you're like, oh, it's been a long day. Like, that's all you have to do. Just be real.

34:58Jonathan Fields: And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC.

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36:34Jonathan Fields: I mean, I think some of the things that you're sharing there also is like context matters.

36:37Leslie John: Yeah.

36:39Jonathan Fields: It really matters. What you want, what you would like from this relationship matters too. Like, do I really have no interest in sort of like really being like, look, I've got my partner, I've got my three besties. I am good. And I'm totally fine just kind of hanging out and having a platonic relationship with these other people. It's not a big deal. I don't need to go there. But maybe you're not feeling that. Maybe you're lonely. Maybe you don't have a person. Maybe you're in a moment where you would really love to have one or two people in your life that you feel much more deeply connected with.

37:10Jonathan Fields: You might be in a place where you're like, you know what? I'm going to test the waters here. The other thing that comes to mind when I think about this, when you're kind of in that moment where you're like, okay, so how far do I go? How much do I share here? Propriety tells me I should just kind of like be quieter. But there's something inside of me that really, I have more to share and I want to share more. Is also looking at not just the context of the relationship or the nature of the relationship, but also, especially in a more of a work environment, power dynamics and the stakes, right? Because in a personal relationship, hopefully there's there's some level of mutuality quality in the power dynamics and mutuality and and you and you both are are equally committed to the stakes of creating the best possible relationship yeah um it can be very different in work though i do think the

38:04Leslie John: workplace is a very um scary place for revealing right i think it's the place that we're probably the most scared well in relationships we get scared for different reasons we're like emotionally scared because it's scary to say you love someone and to not have that requited. So that's like emotionally scary. But in the workplace, power dynamics are real. Status hierarchies are real. And I don't think I know from research that it is a lot more dangerous to reveal when you're low on the status hierarchy, right? We talked at the beginning of this a little bit about how leaders have a lot of latitude.

38:38Leslie John: And when leaders, people that are of high status and have a lot of power, when they open up, it's less risky for them and it brings all these benefits. But when you're in a lower status situation, you have to be a lot more careful. And note that everyone in any given day, like we often move up and down the status hierarchy. Like if I'm talking to the dean, I'm low status. If I'm talking to a student, I'm high status. And so any given day, you're navigating this. And so the thing to note is when you're a leader, you have more latitude, period. When you are in a lower status situation, it's riskier.

39:13Leslie John: One thing that you may find helpful as a guide is the difference between transparency and vulnerability. Transparency is, you can think of it as cognitive openness, as sharing your thought process, how your brain works, how your logical reasoning works, just saying that process out loud. Transparency is cognitive openness. The other end of the spectrum is vulnerability, which is sharing sensitive thoughts and feelings, right? Sharing that you feel insecure, sharing that, you know, you're worried that your conflict at home might filter into your work. Like those are vulnerable things to share. And those are things that you have to be really careful sharing up to a higher status person.

39:58Leslie John: And so you want to be very, if you're in a lower status situation, you want to be very discerning about vulnerability. But transparency is like pretty low-hanging fruit. Like it's pretty safe most of the time and you get a lot of benefits from it. So that's kind of one way you might be able to think about it.

40:19Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I mean that makes sense. My mind translates that as a difference between sharing process versus feeling. Yep, that makes total sense. And the latter is like our risk is, at the end of the day, risk is really belonging. Yeah, yeah. Whether that's in a corporate environment, in a team environment, or in a family or with a partner, like when we quote go there, it's both the risk and it's the opportunity, right? Because if we never actually share anything that's vulnerable because we're confined by propriety or we just don't want to go there, we're not comfortable, we will never give anybody to whom we want to be known the opportunity to truly know us.

41:06Jonathan Fields: And all the things we want from the relationship or from the possibilities, it's off the table. It's never actually going to happen. Yeah. And then we will blame the situation or the context or the power dynamic or all the other things. Right. Rather than just saying, I never gave anyone a chance to actually see me. Yeah, completely. Like I wasn't cast out because I was never, I never belonged in the first place. Yeah, yeah. And some of that, like you're not going to take all the burden, but from what I hear you saying, like some of that is probably more on us than we realize. Yeah. And also, if it's more on us, that means we have more agency in changing it.

41:44Leslie John: Exactly, exactly. And you could think of like, I'm thinking of in the workplace, situations where you would ordinarily suppress or probably not even think of sharing, honestly. Imagine if you considered sharing more. So here's a concrete example. Imagine you came up with some brilliant idea. Maybe it was like an ad campaign or a new product, but the core idea was yours. There's no ambiguity on that. Took a team to see it come to light. And so you heard one of your teammates say to the boss when the boss asked whose idea it was, group effort, right? So this is a classic. You're not getting the attribution for the idea.

42:31Leslie John: And a part of you dies inside when you hear that. And so the old you would just be like, I don't want to be petty. I don't want to raise it with the person. Like you probably, you might not have even considered broaching the topic. You would have just felt, oh, this is icky. And those are valid concerns. And that's when we do think of whether to reveal more. I've shown this again and again in studies that the number one thing we think about are the risks of revealing. They easily, readily come to mind, right? In this situation, I'll feel petty. My relationship will be ruined. There'll be friction.

43:03Leslie John: It'll be an awkward conversation. It will suck. Like, risks of revealing, valid. But that's not a fulsome decision if you just stop there. But usually we do. We need to think of the risks of not revealing, the risks of holding back. And if you start to think about those, so in this example, okay, I'm going to ruminate. And when I ruminate, you know, sometimes things filter out in other ways, like passive aggression or subtle distancing. So, you know, at first, okay, saying something I worried would risk the relationship, but now not saying something I think is a bigger risk for the relationship because it's like insidious.

43:39It's like a long-term, like, distancing situation.

43:43Leslie John: and then from there, you might even think of, oh my gosh, there's bona fide benefits to revealing. If I tell them in the right way, and we can do a whole other podcast on the right way to share things, but let's assume that we've mastered the skill. We figured out how to tell the person in the right way. They will know me better. They will know that I have high standards, that I value ideas, which will lead them to respect me more, which will lead me to also feel known for who I am. And right. So my point, again, it's not like to say everything and share everything all the time, but like consider sharing more and subject it to like a reasonable analysis, not just what are the risks.

44:25Yeah.

44:26Jonathan Fields: So it's like when you're in that moment, you're kind of asking yourself, you're effectively doing a cost-benefit analysis. But not just saying something. You're basically doing what's the risk and what's the benefit if I say something? And then what's the risk and what's the benefit of if I don't say something? And then not saying something also. I mean, you just described some of the harms that come from that. But also, if it's really bugging you or if it's really you're feeling something, it's not just going to cause friction or come out as passive aggression or something in the workplace. You're probably going to bring that to your other relationships.

45:01Jonathan Fields: It's going to sit in your own mental health and well-being and affect your physical health eventually also. And I think oftentimes it circles back to the beginning of the conversation, that data that you shared. But we often really don't go that far and think, wow, like, what is the harm of not sharing really causing me and the people that I want to be known by?

45:23Leslie John: And so this is, of course, caused me to then, like, I've had an experience like that. And so then I was like, OK, now I did the analysis. I wrote a book. I should do it. So then I did it. And when I do this more, I mean, I get better at it. I get more comfortable. It's a skill. But also, so often the person is like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize you're so...

45:46Leslie John: It's very illuminating about your relationships, actually, how people react. Yeah.

45:51Jonathan Fields: Well, it also goes back to what you were talking about earlier in our conversation, the mind reading thing. It's not just with an intimate partner. It's oftentimes we think we know somebody at work and we attribute motives or motivation to them. Maybe they just had no idea that this was even happening. And they were just like, oh, I'm so sorry. Thank you so much for bringing it to my attention. And it's helpful across the board. So if somebody's joining us for this conversation, they're thinking, okay, so I'm willing to really run these experiments. What's one small reveal that somebody might start with in any context in their lives?

46:29Leslie John: I love this. So I think praise is a very low-hanging fruit and something that I've been doing. So saying something positive about someone that, well, we all know what praise is. I don't need to define it. Okay, so here's an example in my own life. we went for dinner with a close friend of my husband's and his wife, who I didn't really know the wife, and we hit it off. And at the end of the double date, what I thought in my mind was, I really like this woman. Normally, I wouldn't have said anything, but I'm like, let me try. So I said to her, I really like you. How often do we think that and we don't say, I said, I really like you.

47:09Leslie John: And she was just like, she was a little caught off guard because we're so not used to that praise. And then she said, I really like you too. Let's hang out and we become friends. And so it's not always going to happen like that, but it feels good for them. And it feels good for me. Like praise just is such a sincere praise, right? You want to be specific and you want to be sincere. And I think that that's a really beautiful thing because it's something that feels like a vulnerable thing to share. But then once you start doing it, you realize how amazing it is. And then you see the benefits and then you want to do it more.

47:41Leslie John: I do think I love your question because I think with revealing, like really getting tangible and like doing the smallest first step so you can see the benefit is really key.

47:53Jonathan Fields: Yeah. I love that you're sharing that also because a lot of our conversation has been like the hard feelings that we've been talking about that we don't share. Yeah. And part of what you're inviting us into is also saying there's a whole lot of stuff. Like there's the hard stuff, there's the middle stuff, and there's a positive stuff. Yeah. It's just not customary to share it, but it actually is really cool. Yeah. And connecting when we do. It's so connecting. Yeah, I love that. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle too. So I always wrap with the same question. In this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

48:25Leslie John: It's to share the things that are meaningful to you in the service of connection.

48:31Jonathan Fields: Thank you. Hey, before you leave, be sure to tune in next week for a conversation with Valerie Kaur about why the darkness we feel in the world today might not be the darkness of a tomb, but actually the darkness of what she calls a womb. It's a powerful new way to look at fear and find your breath again. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss this or any other episode. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Chris Carter crafted our theme music.

49:07Jonathan Fields: And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still here. Do me a personal favor, a seven-second favor, and share it with just one person. If you want to share it with more, hey, that's awesome, but just one person, even then, invite them to talk with you about what you both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

49:55Jonathan Fields: With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. member FDIC.

50:25Leslie John: Hi, this is Hannah Berner from Giggly Squad. Have you ever put on a bra that makes you feel like a goddess prepare to be obsessed with the dream angels wicked bra from victoria's secret the iconic brand behind the world's most comfortable bras and i only wear the most comfortable bras the bestseller features an innovative sling for perfect lift without padding and the fit is chef's kiss awaken your inner goddess with new colors and super femme lace embroidery find out why this bra has thousands of five-star reviews and counting. Shop it in stores and online at victoriasecret.com.

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