Thrive in an Empty Nest: The "Open Door" Strategy for Lasting Happiness | Gretchen Rubin

0:00Jonathan Fields: So imagine this, you've just finished the college drop-off, you're driving home, and for the first time in 18 or 20 years, the backseat is empty, the house is quiet, too quiet. For some of us, that silence feels like freedom, and for others, it feels like just a gaping hole. We have called this the emptiness for generations, but my friend Gretchen Rubin thinks that's a terrible way to describe a season of life that's actually full of opportunity. Gretchen is one of those rare people who can take a complex human struggle and find the hidden gear that just kind of makes it work. She's the author of The Happiness Project and Life in Five Senses.

0:41Jonathan Fields: And today, we're sitting down to talk about what she calls the open door transition. And we explore why some of us are what she calls book people who crave reinvention while others are tree people who need deep roots and how that difference can actually cause total chaos in a marriage once the kids are gone. We also talk about the practical and sometimes awkward new rules for tracking, texting, staying close to your adult kids without becoming a burden. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

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4:22Jonathan Fields: Gretchen Rubin. Hello. So good hanging out with you. I was remembering this conversation that you and I started. You've now sort of like turned into much more of a public conversation where you are telling me we're hanging out at a little coffee shop on the upper side and you're like, I'm just really thinking a lot about this whole thing about like when our kids leave the house. And the word wrapped around it that we've all learned for generations is emptiness. And you're like, that feels so not good to me.

4:51Gretchen Rubin: Right, right. Nobody likes that term. Everybody agrees it's a terrible phrase, but it sticks because it does capture or something.

4:59Jonathan Fields: Right. So we're going to dive a lot into this and how you created a really cool reframe around it. But why do you think it's stuck so long? Because it is, I don't think anybody likes it.

5:09Gretchen Rubin: Nobody likes it, but I think, well, first of all, once it gets in everybody's head, it's hard to replace it. But there is this idea of like that it's empty, you know, that there is this sense that something has changed and there has been a departure. And a lot of people talk about like the loud quiet and the empty seat at the dining room table and like no one's like running up and down the stairs and so the idea of like the emptiness but you know what i just noticed today for the first time and it blew my mind is empty nest sounds like empty nest the emptiness of the empty nest and i think that's what we have to like really challenge ourselves is like it's it's space, it's opportunity.

5:53Gretchen Rubin: And then the nest is the metaphor for children. And you want your house to be like a cozy nest.

5:59Jonathan Fields: The emptiness thing is really interesting, right? Because I wonder if your brain almost just hears it as emptiness and it seeds it differently. I don't know.

6:07Gretchen Rubin: I was like, how has nobody pointed that out before to me?

6:12Jonathan Fields: That's pretty wild. But I mean, on the one hand, I feel like some people hear that phrase and it's associated with freedom. It's like, oh, finally. And then other people hear that phrase and it's associated with sorrow. Yeah. And maybe yes. Maybe it's just a yes and type of thing. But I know, you know, I was thinking back to when you have a 24-year-old daughter. And thinking back to when we dropped her off at school, you know, college. And, you know, we're a tiny little family. There's three of us. And we drove up and dropped her off. And she didn't want me coming up to her room for like the final drop off.

6:47Jonathan Fields: So my wife kind of brought her up and they're up there and I'm hanging out in the car downstairs. And like 15, 20 minutes later, my wife comes down and she finds me literally snot sobbing in the car. Absolutely devastated. And what was going through your mind? Devastated.

7:03Gretchen Rubin: What was going through your mind? I was just like, this, things will never be the same. Things will never be the same.

7:10Jonathan Fields: Yeah. I mean, is that what you, because you've been talking to so many people about this now. Is that common?

7:15Gretchen Rubin: Everything is common. Everything is normal. And that's part of what's confusing is every reaction, everything is felt like every rate. Some people feel so free and some people feel so abandoned and some people feel like they're closer to their children when their children have some independence. Like some children are very difficult. And so it's actually easy, like it's easier to be close to them when there's some space. Some are feel bereft. But it's funny that you say that because I remember when we were driving, we did the drop off, driving home, we had like a three and a half hour drive. And, you know, it was just sort of silent and quiet.

7:53Gretchen Rubin: And Jamie said to me, you know, she'll be fine. And I said, I know she'll be fine. She'll be fine and we'll be fine. But it will never be the same. And he said, no, it will never be the same. And so I think part of it is the poignance of just the end of a season of life. Even apart from now you can travel, everything else, whether it's good or bad, it is the end of a season of life. And it's always hard to see things come to an end. And it's tied up in our own mortality, our own sense of our own lives kind of ratcheting up a notch, you know.

8:29Jonathan Fields: I mean, it's really interesting what you bring up also about the fact that some people, like we make assumptions, you know. So I'm like, oh, this must be devastating for everybody. And maybe it is for a lot of people in their own way. But maybe there are also family situations where there's a lot of tension. There's a lot of discomfort. There's a lot of strife. And relationships aren't great. And in that context, maybe it's actually something where everybody exhales at that moment. It kind of says.

8:56Gretchen Rubin: Well, I think that's a really important point. And that's one thing that I think is important for people to remember. And it's maybe comforting is that you may be experiencing it as a negative, but other people can experience it as a positive. And so I think it's helpful to realize like there are other ways to see it. And like one of the most kind of touching things somebody told me was I was talking to a father and he said, I had a really bad divorce. It was very contentious and a big issue was custody. And we fought about it all the time. But then my daughter went to college. And although I hadn't been the kind of father that I always imagined that I would be, now I'm back on track.

9:32Gretchen Rubin: I'm a dad just like all the other dads. I can come to town when I want. I could take her out to dinner with her roommates. Like to him, it was a restoration of like his vision of fatherhood. And so I think it's just comforting for people to feel like, well, for me, I'm feeling a big loss, but maybe for other people, this was working out. And somehow there's sort of a strange comfort in knowing that there are different ways to experience things. They're not just, oh my gosh, I've got a giant gaping hole in my life that nothing can fill. Well, you feel that way and that's important, but, or maybe you're married to somebody who doesn't feel that way.

10:03Gretchen Rubin: It allows us to show more compassion to other people and ourselves because we see people are having a whole confusing range of responses.

10:11Jonathan Fields: That brings up something really interesting also, right? Because we assume that our response is going to be pretty similar to other people. But even within a relationship, you know, like if you're partnered with somebody at that moment, you may be experiencing it totally different than they are.

10:25Gretchen Rubin: Yes. And that's very confusing. And there's something that's called splitting ambivalence.

10:29Jonathan Fields: What's that?

10:29Gretchen Rubin: So this is when, because it's confusing and you're feeling like things that like opposites, you split the ambivalence. So one person is like, this is so sad. It'll never be the same. Our family is gone. Well, I miss her so much. And then the other person's like, but this is great. We wanted her to be independent. This is like, all our dreams are come true. This is great. Now we can do what we want. Instead of both people saying like, well, in some ways it's good, in some ways it's bad because it's kind of hard. You know how we always want to be binary. It's like, we just want things to be like, yes or no.

10:59Gretchen Rubin: Make it clear, black or white. Make it clear, black or white, yes or no. And so they split the ambivalence and then they polarize each other because the more one person says, like, how are you not seeing this loss? The other person is like, how are you not understanding that this is okay? And so it is, I think it can be really surprising in a couple where one person, I know you love a good distinction, Jonathan. So let me try this out on you. So they're book people and tree people. Book people are people who like to start a new chapter. They turn over a new leaf and they think, oh, I'll reinvent myself.

11:30Gretchen Rubin: And like they like that. You know, like a friend of mine said, everybody should reinvent themselves every 10 years. And so they like that feeling of like turning a page. Tree people want to be rooted in place. They want to grow and flourish, but they want to stay rooted. And so what happens sometimes is that you have people that are sort of acting like tree people because their child keeps them in one place. But then the kids are gone and the book person says, this is great. Let's move to Portugal. Let's move to the beach. Like, let's shake things up. Let's get an RV and drive around the country.

12:01Gretchen Rubin: The other person is like, what are you talking about? This is our home. These are our friends. These are our memories. Like, how could you leave that behind? Because they didn't understand this about themselves. And neither is right, neither is wrong. But sometimes in a couple, it can cause a lot of tension.

12:14Jonathan Fields: I could totally see that. Somebody's like, oh, freedom.

12:17Gretchen Rubin: Yes, exactly.

12:18Jonathan Fields: And the other person is, no, like, we get to now just, like, root deeper here and go deeper into community and spend more time with friends and join this group and that group.

12:27Gretchen Rubin: Yes, exactly. And you can see how they could get really frustrated with each other. But sometimes I just, you know how it is. If you have a vocabulary to talk about these different, sometimes it's easier. It makes it less personal. It's just like, oh, I understand why you're thinking about things the way you are. And here's why I'm seeing things in a different way. And let's talk about it rather than like you're heartless or you're so rigid, you know, which is how it can sometimes... Don't you see what's really happening here? And they're both right. Of course, both people are right. And both people, you know, they both have they're both coming from a place of sincerity.

13:02Jonathan Fields: Okay, so book or tree?

13:04Gretchen Rubin: I'm a tree person. I've known you for a long time. And I'm lucky because I'm married to a tree person. He is such a tree person that we literally live around the corner from where he grew up. And I mean, you do not even cross a street. It's like 70 steps or something. He was like, maybe after the kids leave, I live in New York City, so we moved on 10. I'm like, just to be clear, we're not moving more than 10 blocks in any direction. I just like want to like, and he was like, okay, because we're both tree. How about you? You're got more of that book. Yeah. You're a reinvention person. You've had many incarnations.

13:36Jonathan Fields: Like if I'm doing the same thing or feeling like I'm the same in the same space or for too long, I get really antsy.

13:42Gretchen Rubin: Do you feel stagnant or restless or stuck?

13:46Jonathan Fields: For me, I think, and it's interesting, right? Because we both have a lot of creative energy in us. We both love to create new things. There's constantly ideas popping. I do love a sense of ritual and routine. And I do love to feel like I'm rooted in community. But when it comes to who I am and how I show up in the world and where I'm devoting my energy, I love the energy of reinvention.

14:06Gretchen Rubin: You are the most willing to break things and start over of almost anybody that I know. You're always on the kind of bleeding edge of whatever. And you're very entrepreneurial too. Yeah, and that's always been a part of me since I was a kid. You've moved to many different kinds of places, not even from like city to city, but like city to rural to suburban to…

14:28Jonathan Fields: Yeah, mountains now. Mountains. Yeah.

14:30Gretchen Rubin: But is your wife the same way?

14:32Jonathan Fields: You know, I think, and so I'm curious now with your theory, I think she's become more so over time. So is your theory that we kind of are who we are and we kind of stay that way or can it change over time?

14:45Gretchen Rubin: I think we are who we are, but some people are more in one camp. I'm very extreme on one camp. No, in fact, I remember somebody once said to me, if you didn't live in New York City, where would you live? And I was like, probably I live in Kansas City. That's where I grew up. That's such a tree answer. But then I think some people are more adaptable or they're sort of could be, they can make the, they bring their own weather to the picnic. They can find happiness moving or they could stay. And so I think it's, I don't know that it's that they've changed or learned, but maybe they just always, they have the aptitude of finding the good in both.

15:16Jonathan Fields: It's funny, as you're describing that, literally a conversation I had with a friend popped into my head where she was saying, if I'm not a completely different person every seven years, I'm failing at life.

15:26Gretchen Rubin: See, I mean, but the funny thing is about that, though, is then they'll say like, and that is a universal policy that everybody should adopt. And if you don't feel that way, too, you're stagnant, you're not moving forward, whatever. Instead of saying like, I'm the kind of person who feels that way. Other people do not feel that way, you know, or you feel bad about yourself because you're like, well, I don't reinvent myself every seven years. But that's just a very book answer.

15:49Jonathan Fields: Totally. But I think also, as more I'm thinking about this as you're talking about it, I feel like probably our association with Booker Tree is we feel it on such an identity level, a core level, that the notion of thinking that people could feel otherwise feels almost alien to us.

16:06Gretchen Rubin: And you're right, because so many things are like that, where they go so deep that you're kind of like, well, how could you possibly feel a different way or embrace the way you are and not feel like you should want to be like this? But, you know, one of the things I always like to do is to try to have language around things so that people can see that, oh, of course, it's natural that a person might feel this way. And it's natural that somebody might feel very differently. But this is the kind of thing when children leave, many things become revealed. Many things come to the surface. Many things that have been ignored or just haven't come up start to reveal themselves.

16:45Gretchen Rubin: And that's why I'm interested, as somebody who studies happiness and self-knowledge, it's like a time of a forced reckoning. And so to me, that's interesting.

16:55Jonathan Fields: And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Drip Drop. So you know those days when you're doing something totally normal, a walk, a workout, errands, travel, and you realize you're just kind of dragging. You start out feeling fine, and then a little later, your energy dips, and your head gets kind of foggy. Drip Drop can really help. Drip Drop is a doctor-developed electrolyte powder that uses science-based formulas for rapid hydration. So you feel results fast while getting three times the electrolytes of leading sports drinks. It's trusted by firefighters, medical professionals, and over 90 % of top college and pro sports teams because it's engineered to hydrate you faster and more effectively than water alone.

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20:18Jonathan Fields: So, okay, so this, so here's where this is taking me then. So, you know, we, my wife and I and our daughter, when she came, spent 30 years in New York City. Grew up just outside of the city, went to school in the city and just never left our entire adult lives up to five years ago, New York City. You know, our daughter's born and raised, like she is New York through and through. We had a sense probably five years before we left that we were getting done with the city. And we talked about it and we looked at other places. But we made a decision to stay in the city. And a not insignificant part of that was we have a great kid.

20:59Jonathan Fields: We're really close with her. She was flourishing, doing really well, like in the place where we were. And she loved this place. And we didn't want to disrupt that. I would imagine a lot of parents make decisions based on the fact that they really want their kids to thrive. They see their kids thriving in the place that they are, and they're like, okay, so we can kind of hold off. We kind of know beneath this we're done-ish, but we've got another five years, another seven years. We can deal with that. But you're almost like telling yourself the story of I'm going to convince myself that I'm this other orientation for now because there's strong enough justification.

21:35Gretchen Rubin: Well, here's what I would say to that is if in your mind you're thinking, well, we're here for five years because our children are doing really well. But at the end of that time, we'd like I'd like to move. Tell your spouse now, because I know a lot of people who have moved. And it's like sometimes one is really intent on moving and the other one is more like your wife, like, well, I could just as soon stay. But if you really want to go, I can go. But don't spring it on somebody. don't just assume that they're going to have the same reaction. Because I think a lot of people are truly astonished.

22:05Gretchen Rubin: They've never mentioned it before, but they're like, oh, this is great. Now we can move to the beach. And the other person's like, what are you talking about? This is the kind of thing, like, it's in your mind. Start talking about it early. Say, this is what the future, I think, could look like for us. And let's start talking about it because you're setting yourself up for a huge conflict. If at a time of major change, you bust out with some other huge major change, that someone's not mentally prepared for.

22:30Jonathan Fields: That is such a good point because the change itself, I mean, a kid leaving the house is wildly disruptive and destabilizing probably for a lot of people. So then you pile on top of it, like one partner coming saying, and let's just blow up our whole geographic point of reference here and go somewhere entirely different.

22:47Gretchen Rubin: But if that's your plan, if you're sort of like, I know because I live in New York City, I know a lot of people who, they lived in New York City in the city. They moved out to the suburbs when they had a kid and they all said, I'll be back. And some are and some aren't. But for the ones that came back, they kind of had to talk about it. They kind of had to make a plan for it. It's a huge deal to move. And the ones that have done it successfully are the ones that were talking about it well in advance and thinking about it, preparing their children. Some children don't really care about their hometowns or whatever.

23:17Gretchen Rubin: Some children are super – well, some kids are super sentimental about, like, seeing their high school friends and all that. And then there are the city kids that, or, you know, some cities have kids that it's hard to take a kid out of a big city.

23:30Jonathan Fields: Yeah. I mean, so we were like, we were pandemic transplants. We didn't actually, you know, even though we kind of knew, we had a sense that eventually we'd like to be somewhere else. Even when our daughter went off to college, we weren't thinking about leaving. We weren't thinking about moving. We're like, ah, we still want a place. This is her home. We want a place for her to come back to. And it's not just our apartment and us. This is the place that she knows. And maybe there's something about New York City kids in particular. I don't know. But at least our kid, she had a love affair with the city itself.

24:02Gretchen Rubin: Yes, mine too. Mine too.

24:03Jonathan Fields: Really, really absolutely loved it and explored it from the tiniest age. I think because in New York, our kids are bopping around on subways and buses in middle school. And they're super independent. So we stuck around. And we had no intention of leaving probably until she had finished college. We're like, let's just keep sticking it out so she has this place to come back to. and then the pandemic hit. She got sent back to us in New York. We rode out the early part of the pandemic here, and then we just all got to a point where we're like, it's getting really, we just need to be somewhere else so we can be outside and breathe a little bit.

24:37Jonathan Fields: So we went to Colorado thinking we'd be there for two, three months tops. We'd come back to New York during the holidays. We'd settle back in.

24:45Gretchen Rubin: I kind of remember that stage where you were coming and going.

24:48Jonathan Fields: And we just kept extending and extending and extending. I mean, we calculated at one point in the first 18 months, we had been in like 18 different Airbnbs and rentals because we kept pushing more and pushing more. And we were living out of basically our car in a cargo box on top of it with storage facilities. And it hit a point where we're like, what are we actually doing here? And by staying in this almost like, you know, liminal space, are we damaging us? Are we damaging our relationship? Are we causing harm to our kid? because she's just feeling really untethered. Yeah, like where is home?

25:26Jonathan Fields: Yeah, and there were times where she literally said to us, she's like, people are asking me, like, where do you live? And she's like, I don't know how to answer them.

25:32Gretchen Rubin: Interesting. Now, but was it super emotional when you gave up your New York City apartment?

25:38Jonathan Fields: I don't think so, only because we didn't think we were leaving the city. You know, I think we were like, oh, we're tapping out for a couple of months and we'll be back. But when we eventually decided out there to sign a lease for a house.

25:52Gretchen Rubin: Right, right. Really put down roots.

25:54Jonathan Fields: Then we were all kind of like, oh, this was a different decision than any of us expected. And it took another couple of years before we sort of said, maybe this is actually where we live now.

26:06Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. Well, that's part of remote work is I think there's a lot more possibilities and that's exciting, but it can also mean conflict within a family because people have a different idea of what they want.

26:17Jonathan Fields: And again, it was very surreal for us because we did all of this during the pandemic.

26:22Gretchen Rubin: Sure.

26:23Jonathan Fields: So all the normal rules were just gone.

26:26Gretchen Rubin: Yeah, yeah. No, that's, yeah. And it just shook everything up.

26:29Jonathan Fields: Yeah. And for our daughter also, you know, she ended up actually taking a gap semester and then transferring schools in the middle of it. So everything was just up in the air. So when we think about this whole concept of the season of empty nesting, let's talk about the language itself also. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was the thing that got our conversation started years back when you were really starting to think about this. You're like, there's better languaging around this too. Take me into this.

26:55Gretchen Rubin: One of the things that's really surprised me is how much literally vocabulary matters and metaphors matter. It really matters if you practice piano or you play piano. It matters if you network or you engage with your colleagues. It matters these subtle changes. and uh and so i was trying to i was searching for a metaphor that i thought was more positive and kind of but kind of captured the vibe that i wanted to associate with it so i thought of things like better bandwidth because a lot of people talk about they just have more bandwidth for everything time energy and money for like the things that are important to them i thought of like open seas because i had this like vision in my mind of like a boat sort of like taking off.

27:36Gretchen Rubin: And then I landed on open door because, and which I really like as I've lived with it for a while, because it captures this idea of coming and going because my daughters are coming and going, but they're, they're leaving, but they're also coming back. And I think that's something that people often say, it's not empty. They're coming back. They are coming back. But also my husband, Jamie and I, we can also leave the doors open for us. Like we're more free to come and go. It's hospitality. It's the idea of threshold, because it is a threshold. You talk about liminality. It's also kind of like, you know, if you're a manager and you have an open door policy, it's like, I'm not micromanaging you, but if you want to stop by and hear what I have to say, my door is always open.

28:17Gretchen Rubin: I think that's kind of an ideal of parenthood, which is like, okay, you're going off and being independent, but I'm here. And if you want to stop by and get some counsel from me, I'm always available to you. It really captured a lot of the different aspects that I sort of wanted to hold on to as I was going through the stages, the open door transition.

28:34Jonathan Fields: I love that language also because emptiness feels like it's one direction.

28:38Gretchen Rubin: It does. They leave.

28:40Jonathan Fields: Right.

28:40Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. They don't come back. You're left behind. You're bereft. And I think that's part of it is feeling left behind. And I do think that that's one of the things that's really important for parents, which is what do you have going for yourself? What's new? What's fresh? Because it's one thing to be the one who leaves and it's another thing to be the one who stays. And if you don't like reinvent what's going on for you, it is very easy to feel like there's just a loss or a gap instead of feeling like, oh, now all these new things are coming in.

29:10Jonathan Fields: I want to go deeper into that though, right? Because I feel like so many parents, a solid chunk of your identity becomes subsumed in the role of parent. Yes. You know, and to the point where if you ask people, you know, like further into parenting, who are you, what they'll immediately come to mind is who they used to be but no longer are because they feel like the role of parent has just completely overtaken that deeper sense.

29:35Gretchen Rubin: Well, it's so interesting that you bring this up because one of the things I'm trying to do is come up with a list of questions where if you answer yes to one or more of these questions, you might be at risk for a pretty rocky transition. So be careful. And one of the questions that I put on is, can you describe yourself to a stranger without referring to your child or as your role as parent? Like, how would you do that? Because I think for some people, they're kind of like, well, I don't know how I would describe myself to a stranger.

30:04Jonathan Fields: Right. It's interesting also, right? Because if you ask that question, somebody's joining us for this conversation, right? And they just planted that question in their head. And if the first thing is like, well, I'm kind of struggling to define myself beyond my role as a parent, My concern is that the immediate response to that is going to be self-judgment and shame.

30:25Gretchen Rubin: Right, right. Like, why have I lost track with myself? I'm so, yeah, yeah. You know, that's a really good point. And I do, when I talk to people about it, I think there is a feeling of like, I lost myself and now it's over. And like, how did this happen? Or I should not have allowed it to happen. But on the other hand, like the identity of parent is one that is valorized and very respected and is very important to you for your whole life. So, again, there's that tension where on the one hand, it's like an incredibly important part of your identity. But then it also can't be your only identity.

31:03Gretchen Rubin: It's like with happiness. I was realizing I was trying to like figure out this tension. And then I realized, oh, it's like one of these things where both are true, like they're opposites, but both are true, which happens so much. And one of them is like, I want my daughters to know that they are essential to my happiness. They are the most important things in the world to me. And also, they are not essential to my happiness. I have other things in my life that are just as important. Both are true. And I don't think they want to be responsible for my happiness.

31:32Jonathan Fields: It's a big weight to carry.

31:33Gretchen Rubin: It's just such a huge weight to carry.

31:35Jonathan Fields: It's like I need to perform in a certain way so that my mom or my dad are like happy.

31:38Gretchen Rubin: Oh, yeah. Somebody said to me, well, the only thing that's important to me is that my son is happy. I'm like, that's too much of a burden for him. You can't make him responsible for your happiness. Anyway, but on the other hand, I want them to be like, oh, of course, I'm the most important thing in the world to my mother. It's both have to be true. And it's confusing.

31:55Jonathan Fields: Yeah, no, it definitely is. So if somebody is at that point, and then they ask that question, you know, like this question, you like describe yourself without actually referencing that role, and they're really struggling to do it, what do you say to them?

32:09Gretchen Rubin: Well, there's a lot of things that you can do to like get back in touch with an identity. So for example, one thing I think one of the most appealing ones or the most available ones is to return to an earlier identity. It's very easy to lose touch with identities. So you think about things like, yeah, what did you do for fun when you were 10 years old? What did you do for fun when you were 20? Here's a tell. Is there something around in your life that you never use, but you won't relinquish? I have two friends who had drum sets. One had a drum set in his office, and one had a drum set like in this room off his living room and they're big right like that's a big opportunity cost and they're not that appealing it's not like a like a cool guitar like a violin on a stand or something like that it's like and i and i meant to both and you know well you know my side hustle is trying to bully my friends into clearing their clutter and so both of them i really pushed on them i'm like what do you play this like what's going on and neither one of them could let go of it.

33:17Gretchen Rubin: And to me, that's important. What does this mean to you? Why do you need to hold on to this? Maybe that to me is like a very powerful clue that it's something to return to. And maybe it's not the drumming, but what does the drumming stand for in your mind? What is it that it's holding for you that you're not tapping into, but you're also not letting go of? So that's a clue that you could use. Or like you've got tennis rackets, but you never play tennis, or you have a lot of art supplies, but you never do art, or you keep reading books about creativity, but you're never actually writing your own project.

33:54Jonathan Fields: That's a great question. I would imagine also that it could get a little bit muddled because sometimes the things we hold on to, there's a sentimentality to it, rather than an attachment to a sense of past identity. And you got to be able to tease that out a little bit.

34:10Gretchen Rubin: Excellent point, right? Because is it like, oh, this is this concert t-shirt that's just like kind of a memento for me? Or is it somehow, what does it signify? You're right, right. All these things. It's like a whole period of self-examination, which I think is why this is such a valuable time if you really push yourself to do these, like gain the wisdom that you can.

34:35Jonathan Fields: Yeah. I wonder if part of what you see going on here as you talk to people about this too is that for some people, part of the maybe even subconscious intention behind just really dropping into the role of parent is you feel good about it. You feel strong about it. Like you said, there's a lot to be celebrated. If you look at every bio that I have publicly right now, it starts with dad. It's like before any of my professional things, it's like dad, husband, published author, maker, yada, yada. So I want to be known first and foremost for my role in my family. I'm proud of it. But I also wonder if there are some relationships and some family dynamics where we drop into a particular family role, a parenting role.

35:15Jonathan Fields: And over time, or maybe even before that, the dynamic within the adults in the relationship isn't great. But you gain the ability to say, I'm going to compartmentalize. There is this one thing I'm going to pour myself into. Absolutely pour myself into. Yes. And maybe the other person's pointing themselves into work or something like that at the same time. And it's enough of, oh, I'm busy doing X or I'm busy doing Y, that you never have to deal with the fact that the fiber of the actual relationship has been frayed for a really long time and you're not sure what's left there. And then when a kid leaves the house, all of a sudden, okay, so if that identity, that thing that has allowed us to compartmentalize and not deal with the central thing, we can't point to it anymore in a meaningful way.

36:02Jonathan Fields: If you see sort of like in this moment also, people are starting to say, okay, so what is there for us now?

36:09Gretchen Rubin: Right. No, it's very common. And it's interesting like the different forms it takes. So one person was like, my wife is very difficult and she tends to shut down if she doesn't get her way. And I just would sort of go along with her to create a happy atmosphere for my children. But now that they're gone, I really can't be bothered to deal with it. You know what I mean? So it's kind of like, I don't want to do the work that you take if it's not for the benefit of family life. There's people where they, you know, I talked to a guy who said something like, my wife was always really interested in the children.

36:47Gretchen Rubin: And when we would sit around, we would always talk about their friends, their activities. And he said, that was fine. I enjoyed that too. But now she's interested in what I'm doing. And she's asking me questions. And I'm really enjoying that. So for him, it was positive. It's like, okay, this is a good thing. But then there are people that are like, now I'm really, or there are people who say, oh, you know, now this person just wants to go off and be, what sometimes happens is that one person has taken a part-time role or not worked to the fullest extent that they could because they've been sort of doing, like managing the household.

37:19Gretchen Rubin: And they want to go full on and work. They want to travel for work. They want to push themselves. They say, oh, now this is my time. And the other person might be saying, oh, I'm getting near retirement. Like, I kind of want to, I want to travel. Like, let's do some fun things together now that we don't have the kids holding us home. So there are all these ways there people can be going in different directions, but not realize it until the kids are gone and then it's all exposed.

37:42Jonathan Fields: I mean, it sounds like a thing that we keep coming back to then is this notion of the importance of probably seeing a date coming and not waiting until the day.

37:54Gretchen Rubin: You see it coming 18 years in advance. It's like, this is not a surprise. Right.

37:57Jonathan Fields: It's like a year or two or maybe longer. Start to have conversations way earlier than we generally ever do.

38:03Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. Just to say, like, what are you worried about? You know, it's funny. I don't know that people always are good judges of even what they'll think.

38:12Jonathan Fields: Right. At the time when it actually happens. Yeah.

38:15Gretchen Rubin: You know, it was like that with parenthood where you were sort of like, I have no idea how I'll deal with this. Like, you honestly don't know what you'll be like. I remember being like kind of had some trepidation about that. I remember a very wise friend. I said something to her about that. And she said, you will still be you. And as simple as it is, that was so comforting to me because I was like, I've seen people change so much in parenthood. It was kind of scary. But I think with this, too, it's but I think you could start to talk about like, are you envisioning a move? Do you think that we'll move?

38:46Gretchen Rubin: Will we downsize? Will we upsize? Do you think we'll do you envision doing something like getting a dog? because you should let me know. Do you feel like you're going to be working more? Do you feel like you're going to change jobs? Like there's so many things that, yeah, you could at least try to sketch out the major, like the major things you could try to predict.

39:05Jonathan Fields: You could at least talk about it. And maybe somebody like has a thought of like, they're curious about something, even if they don't, they're not sold on it. They're just like, huh, be interesting to maybe think about what it would be like to do this or change this about my work or live in a different place or split our time or something like that.

39:20Gretchen Rubin: Right, right. Like we could just go and look and see what, let's go stay, let's go there for a week and see if you like it or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. You could explore it. The idea is to try to do it as a team and to have a feeling of like, we're both in it together. And like, we want to figure out a way for both of us to thrive rather than people feeling isolated in their own experience. Just bring it on you.

39:38Jonathan Fields: Hey. Yeah.

39:39Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. No, it's, it's, or people, and if they're very different, like my husband and I are both like really love to work. So really a challenge for us is just not to work all the time because one of the good things about children is they sort of force you to take time off and take vacations and not work on the weekends and stuff. So that's been our issue. But you could imagine that if one person's like, oh, now, great, I can work so much more, and the other person's like, no, now we can play.

40:04Jonathan Fields: Yeah, friction.

40:05Gretchen Rubin: Right, so that would be the kind of thing that maybe you could see that coming in advance.

40:10Jonathan Fields: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Gab Wireless. So many parents are trying to figure out how to give their kids freedom without handing them the entire online world. And the concern is real. Kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to struggle with anxiety and depression. It's a lot to hold. That's why I appreciate what Gab is doing. Our executive producer, Lindsay, has a nine-year-old who uses the Gab Watch 3E. It gives him room to explore and check in when he needs to. And it gives her real peace of mind.

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42:20Jonathan Fields: Their spring collection is inspired by places like blooming gardens and sunlit terraces. So if you want a small sensory shift that changes the energy at home, try Pura. Open the door to spring with Pura or just click the link in the show notes. Let's talk about policies towards our kits. when we think about, okay, so maybe they've left for, let's not assume that they're going to college, right? But maybe it's just time for them to leave the house. Maybe they've turned 18 or maybe they're traveling the world. Maybe they're starting a business, whatever.

42:51Gretchen Rubin: Or they're at community college and they live at home, but they're just out all the time. So they're living an independent life, even though they're sort of under your roof. Yeah. College drop-up is just like the most blunt example of there are many times when this could happen.

43:05Jonathan Fields: Right. So whatever it looks like for you, what are some of the things that we should be thinking about in terms of agreements or understandings that we have with our kids about what this might look like?

43:18Gretchen Rubin: Well, one of the things that is very tricky about today is tracking. This is a huge issue. Life 360, Find My, things like that. And I think that for many parents, because they can supervise a little bit more or feel like they're supervising, they feel like it's their responsibility to do that. And then they're really up in their kid's business. Just tell me what you think, Jonathan. I'm like, can I, just as a single person in the world, say, I declare that once a week is enough to be sufficient of a contact. Now, this is back in the day. This is what people who are parents now probably did as college-age kids or they were out, which is once a week you were supposed to call.

44:06Gretchen Rubin: And everybody sort of accepted that. Now, today, of course, some people are texting a million times a day. But what is the minimum acceptable amount?

44:16Jonathan Fields: Right, which is going to be totally different based on the person. And also probably expectations from parents and kids are totally different.

44:22Gretchen Rubin: No, it's like the scene from Annie Hall. One mother said to me, like, oh, my God, I'm estranged from my son. I was like, oh, what happened? She goes, you know, he texts me maybe two or three times a week. I never hear from him. And then I talked to another mother. I'm like, how's it going? She goes, oh, it's great. You know, I hear from him, you know, a couple times a week. It's all going well. And it's like, okay, so it is the expectation. So I think you want to talk to your child about like, well, what is your expectation? I think a really good thing to say to a child is if I text you, all you have to do is give me like an emoji, like a thumbs up emoji.

44:52Gretchen Rubin: And that is just like I am answering my phone. I am in a state of life where it is possible for me to read my phone and send you like an emoji from time to time. And especially like kids know like they have a really worried mom. They have a really frantic dad. Like they know what you're like. So talk to them about what would allow you to let go of the reins a little bit more, but still in a way that feels acceptable to both. But what some parents do is they say, I'm really anxious. You need to respect my anxiety and give me the reassurance I need. It's like, no, that anxiety is on you. There's a limit where, okay, but what is the acceptable minimum?

45:32Gretchen Rubin: That's why I think we need to sort of figure that out.

45:34Jonathan Fields: That all lands with me. talk to me about the tracking thing though because I think a lot of parents it's inconspicuous, it's not a big deal when the kid's young everyone in the family has the fine line.

45:47Gretchen Rubin: And it's cozy, it's sweet it's just nice.

45:48Jonathan Fields: Oh, they'll be home in 10 minutes there's nothing nefarious or overbearing about it but then when your kid moves into the next season that can change.

45:56Gretchen Rubin: Well, and let me give you an example so somebody said to me, well I said to my son, what are you doing this weekend? And he said, not much, but then I looked on Life360 and then I saw he went to a party an hour away from campus. So he lied to me. I'm like, I wouldn't say that he lied to you. I would say he didn't feel like describing what he was doing to his mom. Maybe he didn't think it was much. Maybe it came up last minute. What's your right to be informed? That's an appropriate thing for a kid in college to do. And you've put him in a situation where you're saying that he's deliberately deceiving you.

46:32Gretchen Rubin: That's a big possible point of conflict between you and a child. And it's kind of something that you have created. If you didn't have that, you wouldn't have known. What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over. And there's a lot of things our college kids are doing, which we're probably just much better off not knowing that they're doing it.

46:51Jonathan Fields: As our parents were better off, like having no one's known what we do. I'm 100%. I'm a lot of people.

46:55Gretchen Rubin: I'm like, well, how did you do this with your parents? And they're like, oh, my parents do nothing. Right.

46:59Jonathan Fields: Because we didn't have all this stuff. Because we didn't have all this stuff.

47:01Gretchen Rubin: So everybody's trying to find, like, what is the right balance for my kid? And, of course, they're wildly different. Some kids need a lot of help and supervision. Some kids are, like, asked for too much. Like, they're calling all the time, texting all the time. That's hard to manage. Like, it shows up in all different ways. So there's no—

47:18Jonathan Fields: I mean, do you feel like it makes sense to just have a sit-down conversation with your kid about this? Yes, absolutely.

47:23Gretchen Rubin: It's like, what do you think is appropriate? And a lot of kids are very reasonable, you know. And, by the way, they know how to trick it.

47:29Jonathan Fields: Right, just turn it off when you're doing anything. You leave your phone.

47:32Gretchen Rubin: You disconnect. I mean, there's all kinds of things to do. And they're going to be way better at figuring that out than you are. So I think some people, it's a tool. But some people just don't manage it in a way that's good for them or the relationship.

47:45Jonathan Fields: So having that conversation, I think, I agree. I think it's so important. Let's wind the tape forward a little bit. Kids out of the house for a bit. For whatever reason, whether, you know, and then they return home. Yeah. Maybe they return home for summer break or for winter break. Or maybe it's just a season of life where they've gone like job change, job loss, relationship ends, trauma, whatever. And they kind of want to be home for a bit to get their feet under them. And that could be anywhere from a few weeks to months or maybe longer years, especially now. I mean, I think we've both seen the stats.

48:18Jonathan Fields: the number of kids returning to the home and staying for significant amounts of time is going up significantly. What are the big things that you see that we need to pay attention to in those moments?

48:30Gretchen Rubin: Well, part of it is, I think, again, it comes back down to a conversation about what are expectations like? What is the person expected to contribute to the household finances? What are the rules about things like curfew? What are the things about noise and chores? Because it's like, you're not coming back and getting to be like a 14 year old where I'm doing the laundry and I'm doing the grocery shopping and to just like really talk those things through because it can become a big sore spot. And it's hard if a child isn't just like has not have like even the consideration of like being in the house because now they're big and they can make a big mess.

49:05Gretchen Rubin: They can make a big noise. Like it can be really disruptive. But then you also need to respect the fact that like, okay, this is a 26-year-old. This isn't a 15-year-old. So if they want to stay out till 3 a.m., they can, right?

49:17Jonathan Fields: It's complicated, right? I mean, I remember a couple years back sitting down with an adolescent psychologist who told me, he's like, yeah, we used to think adolescents ended 18, 20 years old. It's like we now know that biologically, adolescence actually doesn't end until around 25 for the typical person, which means, and he described it as, he said, basically, until you're 25, your brain is all gas and no brake.

49:39Gretchen Rubin: Here, but I'll argue the other point of that. Because some parents are now, I've seen parents invoking that research to basically justify them staying as like a supervising parent very long. Okay, it used to be, like in the 1950s, people who are like 21, 22 years old were married, had a baby, were working. Saving for your first home. I mean, they were completely independent. And so the idea that like as a 22 year old, you're incapable of like doing your own laundry. So I worry sometimes when people are like, okay, we're just extending my parental judgment over you because like your cerebral cortex isn't ready for it.

50:16Gretchen Rubin: But it is also true. People are impulsive. Both are true. But I do think if you put it in perspective, one thing that I would love to do is when my daughters were really little, their preschool would have this thing like, you're a three-year-old. And it's like, you're a three-year-old should be able to take off their own winter coat. And I was always like, oh, wow, I'm doing way too much for my three-year-old, right? They're like, you're not at all supporting their independence. And I'm like, your 18-year-old should be able to make their own dentist appointments and go. They should be able to get out of bed without you calling them.

50:47Gretchen Rubin: They should be able to, what are these things? Yeah, the basic checklist. Yeah, yeah.

50:53Jonathan Fields: Some of this also, I think, probably boils down to values, right? Because if you were brought up in a family culture that said, as soon as you're 18, you've got to be able to cover yourself. Right. And you've been raised toward that. Right. And then your kid comes home and all of their peers and all their family cultures are different. They're like, no, this is my home. It should be open for me and I should be okay. And I'm struggling a bit here and I need to get back on my feet. And don't you want to support me in that? And making me pay this and do that, that's got to be something that comes up on a regular basis.

51:26Gretchen Rubin: It is. And I think that that's a really good point, that there are the differences, like the expectations of the generations and like what they think is appropriate. Yeah, again, it just comes back to like having an open communication with it and trying not to impose it and just really come to it from a place of curiosity and like how do we create an environment where everybody thrives?

51:46Jonathan Fields: Yeah. So I think zooming out, the thing we keep coming back to on both levels is this is unfolding. It's almost like it's unfolding on three levels. On an individual identity level, on an adult relationship level. Yes. Right? And then on an adult kid level.

52:02Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. No, that's very true.

52:04Jonathan Fields: And each one of those deserves its own process of inquiry and conversation.

52:09Gretchen Rubin: Exactly. Exactly. Like one nice thing that seems to happen at this phase is that people reconnect with their siblings.

52:15Jonathan Fields: Oh, that's really interesting.

52:16Gretchen Rubin: Because people are just like busy. They're doing their own thing. But then a lot of times you'll reconnect with your sibling. So that's a really positive thing that can happen. But I think you're right. There's the individual, like my identity, my purpose, sense of growth. Then there's marriage if you have it or if you're single. How are you dealing with that? Friends, family, community. And then your relationship with your child. Yeah.

52:36Jonathan Fields: Which changes. I love the idea of just thinking about those. And also your repeated suggestion, rather than waiting to the day of, to the extent that you can start to think about, how might I feel, what might I want, what might I be curious about before that. Ask it of yourself. Ask it of any relevant relationships that you might have.

52:55Gretchen Rubin: And there's definitely signs that you're probably going to struggle. Oh, tell me.

52:59Jonathan Fields: What do we look for?

53:01Gretchen Rubin: If you would say my child is my whole world.

53:04Jonathan Fields: Okay.

53:04Gretchen Rubin: If you would say my child is one of my best friends. If you would say I don't really have any significant relationships outside my family.

53:12Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

53:13Gretchen Rubin: If you say, I can't really describe myself to a stranger without referring to, I'm a soccer dad, I'm the father of three girls, I'm, you know, whatever it is. Those are signs that maybe you want to start thinking about it, like setting yourself up. I mean, even something as simple as like one night a week, I'm just going to do something for fun myself. I'm going to take a class. I'm going to start a book club. I'm going to get together with my college friends who live in town. Like, will you just say, it is possible for me to carve out part of my life, which is just, I want to sing in the church choir, and I'm just going to do that, and everybody else has to figure out what to do for dinner.

53:55Gretchen Rubin: Just to sort of start holding space for that to do your transition. It's interesting. Sometimes people who are divorced say that they think it's good practice. that people who split custody, they feel like often have, like it's hard for them because there's nobody at home with them, but they have started facing these questions much earlier.

54:13Jonathan Fields: Right, right, right. That makes sense.

54:14Gretchen Rubin: Yeah.

54:15Jonathan Fields: Huh. So interesting. So much to think about. I love this. I feel like a good place for us to come full circle as well. I have asked you this question a number of times over the years. We're going to ask it again because it's been a number of years in this container of Good Life Project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

54:33Gretchen Rubin: Accept myself and also expect more for myself. Hmm.

54:38Jonathan Fields: Thank you. Hey, before you go, make sure to tune in next week for our conversation with the legendary author, Michael Pollan, about the elusive nature of consciousness and why it's currently under siege. Michael shares why our awareness is the most precious thing we own and how we can reclaim our attention in an age of constant distraction. Be sure to follow Good Life Project where you get your podcasts so you don't miss that upcoming episode. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young.

55:13Jonathan Fields: Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here, do me a personal favor, a seven-second favor, share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter because that's how we all come alive together.

55:48Jonathan Fields: Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.

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