Your Body Is Already Talking. Here's What It's Saying | Linda Clemons

0:00Jonathan Fields: So here's something that might change the way you think about nearly every conversation you have today. According to my guests, research says 93 % of what you communicate to another person has nothing to do with the words coming out of your mouth. It's about posture. It's about your eye contact, the way your arms are positioned, whether your body is open or closed, the direction your feet are pointed, even the micro expressions flickering across your face in fractions of a second. All of it is telling a story. And most of us never once stopped to ask what story our body is telling. My guest today, Linda Clemens, has spent more than 30 years as one of the world's leading experts in body language and nonverbal communication.

0:42Jonathan Fields: She's trained Fortune 500 CEOs, elite sales teams, celebrities, leaders across industries to master the silent signals that build trust, create connection, and command a room without ever saying a word. Her best-selling book is called Hush. And in this conversation, we go deep into what she calls the four power zones of the body and why keeping them open or closed changes everything. From a high-stakes interview to a conversation with your kid. We talk about how our biases show up in our bodies before they ever reach our mouths. And she tells a story about a manager who unknowingly convicted the wrong person using nothing but his posture.

1:21Jonathan Fields: We get into the three patterns that hijack us in pressure moments, frozen, flooding, and flat, and we explore the question that Linda says changes everything. Not what do I want to say, but how do I want this person to feel when they leave my presence? This one is really practical and warm and immediately useful. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

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4:20Absolutely. So, first of all, Jonathan, Ken, thank you for having me on your show. What's so important if we think about this, our nonverbal communication is primitive. It existed before we were able to speak a word. And so just imagine, it's the thing that protects you that's a part of your limbic system. When from 2 ,000 or more years, when you would meet someone, the first thing you would do, you would scan their body. You would scan the body to determine if they are a friend, a foe, or perhaps a feast. You know what I'm saying? And that's what we do. But the body is speaking before you even say a word.

5:03So, for example, you and I could communicate if someone walks in the room and perhaps someone that looks a little odd or strange or someone we least expect. And we may look at each other and do an eyebrow flash like, hmm, wonder who that is without saying a word. So, again, even when you were a little baby, you couldn't form words. You made sounds and gestures. So that's how important our nonverbal is. and I have one of my quotes that I love. It's by Emerson and it goes like this. I cannot hear what you're saying because who you are being is getting in the way. Wow. I cannot hear what you're saying because who you're being, your actions.

5:47And you've heard the phrase action speaks louder than words. And if my late granny was alive, she'd say, baby, I hear you talking, but I don't see you walking. So it is so important there's a conversation that just standing there, just looking around, whether we say anything or not, that's speaking louder than your words.

6:09Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense. And as you were describing that, I was also wondering, well, where does this come from? But you kind of spoke to that. I guess there's probably no real way for us to answer where does this come from. But it would make sense that there's a survival mechanism at play here. We needed to be able to actually read. If we saw somebody coming and it was 100 yards away or a group of people coming and we couldn't actually communicate with them, maybe we didn't share a language, but there was a reason for us to understand, as you were sharing earlier, a friend or foe.

6:40Jonathan Fields: You know, so there's a survival mechanism that I would imagine has given us this curiosity and ability to start to try and figure out what is being communicated long before words come out of somebody's mouth. Absolutely. And just think about couples who have been together for a while. They can be in sync with each other without saying a word. A wife can know if something's going on with her husband. A husband can know what's going on with the wife. The mother can just scan her children and know if something is happening. So it's so important that we stay in tune to this because if you are a leader, if you're a parent, a friend, or you're working with a co-worker, or someone that you want to communicate better with, be prepared to be observant.

7:35When I say observant, one of the keys that I love is being 100 % present in their presence. So you could see those facial muscles, those 43 facial muscles that react. You could see if I said something to perhaps offend you, and then you jerk back. Thus, you were taken aback. All of these things, without you saying a word, are sending signals, and it allows us to know if we are building rapport, if we are attracting people, or you could become a people magnet, or if you are, wow, repelling people because of your behavior and you're nonverbal, if your power zones are not open. And we'll talk about that a little bit later.

8:22All of this makes a difference. And see, the smile is the universal language.

8:28Jonathan Fields: I think a lot of us will probably say, okay, I could see how this would really benefit us to both be able to lead with nonverbal language in a way where we want to communicate something that is in some way beneficial to us or to others. But you also mentioned something else, which I'm really curious about, which is the way that we step into an interaction nonverbally with our body, with our movement, with our energy can also hurt us. There can be a downside. What are some of the ways that you see the risks, the hazards, the harms that you see potentially being caused by not understanding how this mechanism works and maybe stepping it into a conversation in a way where we're literally creating a dynamic that we really wish we weren't.

9:13Well, let me give you a good example. I never forget, I was working with a company and working with their leaders on the, I do a workshop titled The Silent Language of Leaders and working with the managers and leaders and how they manage, promote, review, and be able to develop their employees. Well, there was a situation where there was discrepancy going on in the office about a particular issue, and the manager brought in the two individuals. Now, he did it individually, but this wasn't. Now, the first individual, by the way, full transparency, was someone he had recommended for the job. So someone he fully sponsored.

9:58So watch this. When this particular individual came in, he did this, Jonathan did this. Okay. Tell me what was going on. I want you all to look at my hands. Okay. Tell me what was going on. I want you to watch my upper carriage. Tell me what's going on. His upper carriage was like pulling. I'm trying to pull for you. I'm leaning in for you. Tell me the truth. I'm there for you. So he was totally open. And by the way, the young man just sat there. Oh, here's what happened, et cetera, et cetera. No emotion, just real steel. But yet at the same time, this guy was pulling for him. So tell me what happened.

10:40You didn't do this. He wanted him to be innocent. The second guy that was involved that walked in, the manager inherited him from another team. And he really didn't want to. He really didn't. He just got, you know, it wasn't someone that he had an opportunity to choose. The guy just transferred to that team. Someone put him there. And guess what? This is how the manager was approaching him. Watch. Even though the physical door was open to the office, he closed the door to his heart.

11:20Jonathan Fields: So for those who are just listening also, by the way, you're kind of leaning back now with your arms crossed over your chest, yeah? Yes, yes. So leaning back, arms crossed, listen up, arms crossed, and he extended one arm out and says, okay, but for those that are listening, I am doing my okay with my hand, but the back of my hand is swinging forward and one arm still folded. Okay, so I'm just going to use the name to protect the innocent and the guilty. Okay, Harry, give me your version. Palm wasn't exposed. Arms still half folded. Give me your version. And he folded his arm back. So the poor guy is thinking, wow, he's already accused me as being guilty and I haven't even said a word.

12:09And he did this based on the manager's body language because he wasn't open. We don't realize that the moment that we cast judgment in our mind, it shows up in the matter. So we can walk into an interaction with some biases predisposed to a point of view

12:33Jonathan Fields: or about an idea, about a situation, a person, a group of people. And we think that we're kind of showing up fairly neutral. Like I haven't opened a mouth. I haven't said anything yet. But what you're saying is without us even realizing it, we're walking into that interaction physically and energetically in a way that is going to probably both reveal what our bias is in a good or a bad way and also change the nature of what's about to unfold potentially in a harmful way. Absolutely. And I'm sitting here in the office, observing both scenarios. And the second guy, you know what? He came in, he was sitting at the edge of the seat.

13:19It's called seat ready, you know, where you're excited and you're trying to plead your innocence and your side of the story. But the moment that he saw the manager's posture and body language, his shoulders, which were straight up became sunken in because he gave up at that moment. He gave up. He gave up. You didn't want me in the first place. So look at the stories that are created internally without us even saying a word. That's how powerful you're not. You can have someone walk into the office. Like, whoa, look at this fella. Look at this woman. Look at this guy. Look at this girl. She walks or he walks like they own the place.

14:07Your posture, the way you walk, the way you hold your shoulders, your head, is it level head or is it sunken down? All makes a difference. And man, that conversation. And I pulled that manager to the side and said, I could tell you which one that you were for. And by the way, the guy that he sponsored was the one that was guilty. But his biases, and this is so important, when you have a bias, there's something called RAS, R-A-S, Reticulating Activating System. Your brain can be lazy sometimes. So whatever you think, the brain is going to find evidence to validate it. So if you're thinking, well, look at that young lady.

14:58Look at that. Oh, the way they're dressed. They'll never wake up. And they could be a genius. And then next thing you know, your brain says, well, look at their shoes. Well, look at this. Look at what they're eating. The way they handle utensils. Your brain will validate whatever you're seeking. Be careful what you think about because it could come about. Yeah.

15:20Jonathan Fields: And what you're saying is it also, it's going to show up in your body, potentially even before it ever comes out of your mouth. You just described a work scenario, which I think probably so many of us have had some version of that and maybe even been on the side of the manager without realizing what we were doing. Like we were the ones who were actually showing up in a way where in hindsight, we're like, oh, wow, that actually wasn't okay. but this is going to show up in our relationships every day also isn't it this is going to show up in our if you're a parent it's probably going to show up in your relationship with your a co-parent or a kid or a neighbor or a friend so this isn't just about work this is about literally every interaction we have with people who are close and not so close with us absolutely and you know one of the things that i encourage all of you to think about how do you want people to leave once they're in your presence?

16:12How do you want them to leave? Do you want them to leave better or bitter? Do you want them to leave transformed or elevated? You could do that simply with your words, your tone, and how you show up, how you open the door to your heart. And when I say power zones, the heart area is a major power zone. Are you always folded arms? And some of you probably thinking, well, that's who I am. Everybody that knows me knows that I fold my arms. But what if I don't know you? What if I don't know your baseline? How do I know that's your norm? So having that awareness is critical. And one of the things that I always say to myself, you know, when I meet someone or someone that I encounter, that the moment they're in my presence, how do I want them to leave my presence?

17:11It's so important. Do I want them to feel like, man, I could conquer the world or I could make it another day or I have something to live for or I do have possibility? How do you want them to leave? And that's one are the keys of being able to attract and build rapport by the way you give off the energy.

17:39Jonathan Fields: I want to drop into both the power zones and some other sort of tools that you offer. But before we get there, I'm also curious about something. We just talked a bit about how our own presuppositions or biases can show up in our nonverbal communication and how we, you know, eventually it's going to show up in our language also, but even the way that we physically show up in an interaction. What about our emotional states? Because we can come into an interaction or a room, energized, calm, at peace, freaked out, stressed, anxious, depressed. Do these also show up in a similar way in our physicality when we're interacting with somebody in a way that affects the way that we're perceived or that we might want to have an impact on others?

18:29Absolutely. So there's a book by a friend of mine, Scott McCain, All Businesses Show Business. So the way you show up, you only get that four to seven seconds, maybe eight. I'll give you a bonus one to make that good first impression. Nobody talks to you about what happens the remaining 20 minutes because they're still assessing you to see if you're the real deal. Whatever is on the mind shows up in the matter. So if you are distracted, let me ask you this question here for those that are listening. How would you feel? And I'm not putting it in the universe, but just say you or someone you love has to have emergency surgery.

19:14And the surgeon comes in or they're talking to you. It doesn't have to be emergency. Let's just say the doctor comes in who's going to operate. and he introduces himself. Hey, I'm Dr. Clements and the nurse is there. And I'm going to tell you, here's what we're going to do. We're going to, okay, hold on. Do we start with anesthesia first or do I do this? It doesn't matter how many degrees are on the wall. Or if he says to you, you know what, give me a minute. I've got a lot going on. My wife left me, the dog bit me, and I found out the cat is having an affair. with all that on their mind, do you want them operated on you, even though they've got all the awards, the degrees on the wall?

19:57So the mind can only think of one given thought at any given time. And the thing that you think of the longest becomes the strongest. So if you are going in with baggage, if you are going in with garbage, it'll begin to leak. It'll begin to smell. and in nonverbal, we call it leakage, where those other emotions, are you okay? Are you okay? I mean, are you okay, Jonathan? You look like a little uncomfortable. People begin to notice that because brains speak to other brains. The signals are there and it's displayed in your nonverbal. So the moment that you think about it in that amygdala or the neocortex or the midbrain or the prefrontal cortex.

20:43It's going to show up in your body.

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22:56Jonathan Fields: And that probably we think we're hiding. but what you're suggesting is we're not. That like if it's probably showing up in a hundred different ways in these tiny little physical tells in our body that other people are picking up. And whether we ever said a word about what was going on, whether we said, you know, like we're stressed, we're anxious, whatever it is, you're saying, you're suggesting that we actually are speaking that but we think that we're not. And then it creates this silent tension because people are picking up on that and that's going to create friction. Absolutely. Absolutely.

23:31And it makes them uneasy. And so for those that are in sales, when that comes across the table, let's say it's the end of the month and you've got to be quota.

23:43Jonathan Fields: Right. So you're freaked out because you're like, I got to push, push, push, push, push. I have a number to hit. Yeah. Yes. They feel that. And then all of a sudden, emotions are contagious. and now your client, your customer is acting the way you're acting. They become a mirror of you. So you have to, and that's part of emotional intelligence is being self-aware of your own emotions so that you can manage them. So this all makes a lot of sense to me. You know, in this context also, you talk about us having certain patterns that we tend to default to as well. And And you bring up three from what I recall.

24:22Jonathan Fields: It's frozen, flooding, and flat, which become almost like these default states. And they can really interfere. These, again, they're physical patterns. They show up in our bodies in ways that affect both us and also people that we're interacting with. Walk me through these three different patterns. Thank you. So that's in my book, forthcoming book, Hush. And for example, let's talk about the frozen stage where you are just simply totally paralyzed in every situation. Where if something happens and you can't react or you lose your train of thought and you're just there frozen and your boss is looking at you.

25:05Everyone's looking like, say something, say something. What's the matter? What's the matter with you? Then the other flooding when all of a sudden, Jonathan, everything, if it's going to happen, it's happening today. Everything is happening. And then all of a sudden, the floodgates of emotions are starting to pour out. And it's very challenging. It happens to men, not as often as it happens to women. because of all the things that they're multitasking and trying to do and they're emotionally attached to projects and things. So then when you begin to flood, it could come across as it could come across now as if you're having an emotional meltdown.

25:54So for example, let's say you're doing the pitch of your life. You're doing the pitch and the stakeholders are in front of you. and you've worked on this for months. And then all of a sudden someone says, you know, we tried this before, but we actually lost money in the third quarter with that. It didn't work. If you are emotionally attached to that, it's like the umbilical cord, then you're going to take that feedback as a personal attack. And then all of a sudden, emotions will start flooding from the eyes darting back and forth, from the exhaling, the movement of the hands just going, everything, it's like high-wired.

26:46And then flat is almost like you flatline. It's like, what does it matter? You become more nub. So it's so important to realize where you are emotionally why you're feeling that way, what would be the outcome if it's displayed? So for example, how would this impact my conversation with you, my mother, my coworker, my children, my team, my boss, my biggest client? The late actor Yul Brynner was asked, you know, how is it over a thousand performances. Every one you give a hundred percent. The same thing over and over and over again, because someone in that audience, he said, it will be their first time experiencing me, the production.

27:46So I can't afford to be off. Yes, we are human, absolutely. But the discipline part of when you're frozen, when you are flooded, and when you are flat. The discipline part is knowing how to pivot, pivot, and pivot quickly.

28:06Jonathan Fields: How do we navigate when this happens? Because whether it's on a big move or on a big stage or in a meeting or whether you're just, you're having a conversation with your kid where you really want it to land, you know, how do we deal with it when one of these three patterns shows up. Think about this. If you are talking to your child, let's first of all, look at the level of where you're talking. Are you talking standing up as the authority? Are you talking sitting down, meeting them where they're at, getting that connection? Are you opening up with a story of everything about what they did wrong?

28:48or are you opening it up, begin to open up about what it is that you appreciate about Billy, what you appreciate about little Linda and what you mean to them? Because I've got to open the mind. I got to open the body because if the child is in the amygdala, they're already fearful. They're not, you know, they're in the protective mode. I've got to melt that ice. And then challenge them on the action that they did. And hear their feedback and get their thoughts. And by the way, be careful of using your 43 facial muscles to make those expressions that come across as judgment. because the moment they see the judgment in your eyes, they'll go into shame, guilt, and therefore they'll close down.

29:50So think about how do you want the meeting, the interaction to end from a little child to a little child, to a spouse, a partner, a coworker, a team member. As Covey would say, begin with the end in mind.

30:08Jonathan Fields: Yeah. So this is a repeated theme in our conversation. It's like really, even before you're in there, like, what do you want out of this? Like, how do you want this to end? And that's going to really influence how you step into it, both physically and also what language might come out of your mouth. Let's talk about a bit more about specific tools and actually maybe a good setup for that. You referenced earlier in our conversation these, I think you call them power zones. Yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah. So when we talk about the power zones, let's one of a few for those that are listening, if you just touch that dimple right where the throat area is, it's called the super sternal notch.

30:53That's the medical scientific term for it. Lots of times, women have a tendency when they feel threat, it's a cure. And Princess Di did it a lot later in her latter years of her marriage. They have a tendency to stroke the super sternal notch and you're just stroking it. So, for example, if I work in a case and I'm sent out to Mrs. Johnson's home and I say, Mrs. Johnson, they sent me out to talk with you and just for you to ask a few questions regarding the whereabouts of your son and your daughter on February the 14th. If she's protecting her son and she does not want to reveal the information, even though she may say something like this, I don't know, I've not seen my son in months.

31:42If she starts stroking the super sternal notch, that nonverbal gives me the cue. She's doing a self-touch gesture, which is called pacifying gestures, trying to calm herself to soothe her nerves. To the women out there, how many times do you do that in a meeting? If the meeting is getting a little heated or something's going on or you feel challenged, you have a tendency to do that. Men may get hot around the collar and when the blood vessels begin to enlarge and they'll pull at the neckline. But be aware of that because that's a power zone. If you heard a loud noise overhead, you'll automatically protect that area.

32:28You go, and by the way, for those that are listening, I dipped my head in like a little turtle. Okay, you're protecting the throat. So that's a power zone. The other power zone we spoke of earlier is the heart. Think about someone who's had their heart broken. And let's say I introduce a friend to someone because she's been out of a relationship for a long time. And we all think it's time you get out and start dating. So I introduce her to a friend. She's liking the guy. But all of a sudden, he started to do things that reminded her of her ex. And guess what she immediately did? She folded her arms.

33:16Now, in that scenario, subconsciously, she was protecting her heart. Her heart. That's a power zone. So when you welcome someone, you don't welcome it into your home with your arms folded. The arms are widespread, palms exposed, and the heart is exposed. Your power zone is so critical. The heart, the throat, the other power zone is the belly button, the navel. It's your first connection to another human being through the umbilical cord. Think about when you're talking to someone face-to-face, heart-to-heart, belly button-to-belly button. And let's say you're in a group of people you're networking and you're in that little circle.

34:06You can always tell when someone is ready to leave because they cut the cord and they'll begin to turn away. So think about when you're having that conversation and when you're done with it. Some of you may be guilty. Like, I don't want to hear it anymore. you will subconsciously begin to turn away. Your feet are pointed towards the door. And by the way, feet don't lie. They're pointed in direction we want to go. So you automatically want to get out of that. Even though your face may be face forward, your heart kind of at an angle now, but that belly button begins to turn and you're cutting the connection.

34:49Be aware of that because you don't have to say a word. If someone says something to you, you don't want to hear it. You begin to turn your body. That's another form of dismissal. So the power zones, the throat area, the super circle notch where that little dip is, the heart, the belly button, and there's another area. And that could be for another show. It's the reproductive area. And that could be for another saucy show.

35:18Jonathan Fields: So we've got these four power zones then. And you used the word, you said be aware of sort of like how you're positioning them in an interaction, which brings up a bigger question about this. The things that we're talking about, are most of us actually even aware that we're doing any of these things? Or is this just, it happens kind of like automatically subconsciously? It happens. It's a habit. It's ingrained into you. So when you wake up in the morning, you don't have to think, how do I get up out of bed? How do I brush my teeth? It's automatic. And those habits are automatic. It becomes a part of your fabric and who you are.

36:05The key for you is to ask yourself and check the temperature, how is this having an effect on the people that are around me? I just noticed that every time I go and try to join a group, then they're ready to leave all of a sudden. Oh, I got to go. I just noticed that when I contribute to conversations, people ignore me. You have to be aware of what you're giving off so that you get corrected. it. And a good way to do it is ask trusted friends. It goes like this. Look, I noticed, look, every time you guys get together for lunch and when I come to join you, it seems like everybody wants to leave.

36:45Why is that? Well, Linda, you're negative Nelly, or you're this, or every time you come in, you're always pointing out, or you're looking up somebody up and down as if you are checking them over, trying to prove them or not, and your whole being is condescending. Knowing not, I didn't. So you don't realize it's the reason why it's so hard for us to see the picture if we're stuck in the frame. And sometimes it'll take someone else to point out those things that you take for granted. Had a friend that always, that when they would talk, they would go, and I mean, we didn't know what that was. And it was a habit that come to find out, what are you doing?

37:34We had to ask, what are you doing? What do you mean what I'm doing? The noise that you're making. They grew up with their grandpa doing that. And they picked it up for whatever reason. But they weren't aware of it. But it was annoying to other people until someone said, look, what are you doing? What is this?

37:51Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I mean, so often it makes sense. We are not, especially if it's been a part of us for decades, we just, we don't know. These are the tells in certain situations. I remember not too long ago being at a small gathering, and I'm an introverted person. I'm a quieter person. I move into social situations cautiously. And I found myself having a conversation with somebody new. And I noticed very quickly that he positioned himself at an angle to me. And it was uncomfortable for me. He wasn't looking around or sort of scanning the room for an exit or another person to talk to. But his body was turned at eight.

38:29Jonathan Fields: But his body was like just very slightly turned away from me. And he was kind of gazing past me. So I was like, I'm going to run an experiment here. So I kind of subtly shifted over back into his gaze. So I was facing him navel to navel. Within five seconds, he slightly rotates again. Literally over the course of 15 minutes, we did a full 360 together. there. And I was, I'm saying to myself, and he wasn't disengaged. Like we were having a conversation. He wasn't looking. He didn't seem to be obviously looking for an exit or looking over his shoulder or seeking somebody else. And I was just so fascinated.

39:09Jonathan Fields: I was like, what's going on here? Like, is this somebody who's just actually very socially uncomfortable and maybe is neurodivergent in a way where he's very just uncomfortable being face to face with somebody or looking them in the eye? Is there some other social thing or am I in some way making him uncomfortable? And I was never able to actually piece it together, but I wasn't offended, but I was curious. Well, let me ask you this. When you being an introvert, a self-proclaimed introvert, and you know that it is extroverts when they invade the proxemics, the personal space of an introvert, you know, without permission or without the right, it could make them uncomfortable.

39:54So just with the moment that you spent with him, if you were to guess or assess, would you say that that individual, by the way, they were turning and moving if they were an introvert? I would imagine

40:06Jonathan Fields: so. And because that tends to be my orientation, I tend to be really sensitive to that too and give people their space. So I wasn't sort of like, like closing in on his personal space. I tend to be pretty good with that, but maybe it was just that. And then maybe he was just very, very socially uncomfortable in a way where he just kind of kept not wanting to connect too much because it just didn't feel good to him, which I honor. So like I said, it was more, became more of a curiosity to me. I was like, oh, this is just kind of fascinating. I'm curious curious about what's going on. How did it make you feel initially?

40:44Oh, not comfortable. It made me feel like I was being pushed away or dismissed until I gave it a beat and said, maybe that's not actually what's really happening here.

40:57Jonathan Fields: But my sense is a lot of people wouldn't have given it that beat. They would have just been like, oh, this person's turning their body away from me. They're not interested in me. Here's another thing. If they start turning the body away and the shoulders begin to roll in as if they're about to go into the fetal position, it could also be issues of feeling insecure. See, for every emotion, there's a motion and there's a story. For every emotion, there's a motion that goes with it, the body language movement, and there's a story attached to it. So the story, we may perceive it as one way, but the body was telling us by turning away that I am not ready to be fully connected.

41:48Don't take it personal. I am not ready for anyone to be in my space. And yes, we have to honor that. Now, here's the thing. You probably didn't have the opportunity to find out, is that the norm, his norm, are the exception.

42:04Jonathan Fields: Yeah, no, you're right. The life of the party, the next 20 minutes, wow, could have been me. Right. Right. Yeah, and it's so interesting too, right? Because let's say you're that person and maybe this is something that has actually become a part of you through past trauma, right? There's a safety. You don't feel safe in certain social situations, regardless who the other people are. You're still living with a certain amount of trauma in your system. And maybe that's affecting you. So you show up at a party every time somebody approaches you to just get to know you or say hi. Because you have this ingrained trauma response that shows up in a physical turning away, you turn away.

42:50Jonathan Fields: The other person feels rejected. They walk away. And that becomes this repeated pattern. And you're probably wondering, why do people keep rejecting me, having no idea this is even going on? I mean, do you see things like that happening in your work? It happens a lot. And then, again, remember what you said. So we said, for every emotion, there's a motion. And like you said, and I mentioned, there's a story. There's a story attached to it. So Oprah Winfrey and Whoopi Goldberg shared a story when the musical The Color Purple came out. And for some reason, prior to that, they did not speak to each other.

43:30They were upset with each other. When they got together to do this big interview for the musical, The Color Purple, and to do the interview, they didn't know why they were angry with each other. They were just angry. They didn't even know the story. So what I'm saying is, what happens if we create a narrative, but we don't know the story? And that's ask. Ask, acronym. Ask, seek, and knock. And knock is asking the permission to open the door to continue to have additional dialogue and conversation. Ask. You know, ask questions that allow you to peel the onion. seek to understand and then knock on the door to be able to come in, to step into their heart, their mind, and their space.

44:27Jonathan Fields: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I would imagine also, you know, if you ask and the response is either non-verbally or verbally, I'm not there, then we have to respect that too. We have to honor that. And we honor that with grace, we bless and release it. We do not take remnants and apply it to us. Is it me? No. We meet people where they're at. We're human. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by ADT. So have you ever had one of those days where everything just finally feels aligned? You're out enjoying a beautiful dinner, leaning into a moment of just pure presence and suddenly the phone buzzes.

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47:10Jonathan Fields: So somebody's joining us for this conversation. This all makes sense. And they think to themselves, okay, so I get the way that I show up physically in an interaction, in a room, in a meeting is going to make a real difference. And they're asking themselves a question. I've got this big presentation next week or an interview that I'm going on next week. how can I show up in this interaction that's coming up in a way where I feel like I step in, I'm received beautifully, I have a certain sense of confidence and command of the room. What should we be thinking about in that scenario? So I'm going to give you the three C's of reading nonverbal communication.

47:55And I may give you a bonus C, but the three C's. First of all, know your baseline, your norm. How do you feel when you're feeling great? What does that look like? What does that feel like? What does that sound like when you are feeling like on top of the world? What does it look like and sound like when you're feeling that you're at the pit of you know what? What does that look like? So that you could be able to identify it. Once you're able to identify it, then you name it. Okay, you call it whatever name you want so that you can tame it. Once you name it and tame it, you could reframe it and you could do it in an instance.

48:37So when reading body language, you want to know a person's baseline and especially you need to know yours. The first C is reading nonverbal say clusters. So for example, if you are in the interview and you're feeling just a little frustrated at the moment, a couple of things are going to happen that if I was the interviewer that validates that for me. You may sit back and sigh in exasperation. Yeah, well, my last job. Okay, that's the second signal. So clusters are looking for more than one movement. Then all of a sudden, I ask you another question that you didn't like, a question that you didn't like, and what you did was turn away.

49:21You crossed your leg and you turned it at angle. Wow. So this validates for me, okay, this person is not really into it. You know, they may not be the candidate I want. But it's key to watch for the clusters in the interview as well. Because if they're leaning in and hanging on every word, and then all of a sudden they are taken aback, take the pen and just lay it down on the table, push the paper forward, the interview may be over. Smack their hand on the table, slap their hand on the table, the interview may be over. So watching for those clusters, more than one movement. The second C, very important, congruency.

50:06It is critical when you go in an interview that your words, your tone, and your nonverbal, so words, tonality, and nonverbal, the body language. Here's a soundbite for you. If all three don't agree, then there is a disconnect in the message between you and me. I can't fold my arms and say, you know, I really love you. Let's get therapy. No, the arms folded. The tone was not right. So if all three, the words to tone and the nonverbal don't agree, there's a disconnect in the message. And the third C is context. And context is this. Let's say you're going to that interview, and the temperature that day is 90 degrees, 90 degrees Fahrenheit.

50:59I mean, it's hot, humid, all get out. And you walk into the interview in full winter gear. I don't know, your parka, your down coat, a fur coat, be it real fur, faux fur, whatever. It's winter gear. The interviewer can't even think straight. They're going, what's up with this person? Because it's out of context. If your behavior, all of a sudden, because someone asked you a question, and all of a sudden you lose it. It's out of context. So be aware of those three C's. And the bonus C is culture. When in Rome do as the Romans do, you want to fit in. You really don't want to stand out. You could go to jail by doing wrong movements and gestures and phrases, if you will, even the wrong body language.

51:53The sign that we make in the United States for A-OK, this sign for those that are looking at me and those that are listening, you know the A-OK sign is quite obscene in different parts of the world. So having that awareness is so critical.

52:11Jonathan Fields: Yeah, that makes so much sense. As you're describing this, I'm kind of nodding along on the one hand, but then there's another voice that's popping up in me, and I'm guessing you've heard this before, which is, is there line that we cross when we think about, okay, so now I know all these different things to look for. I have a series of techniques. I know ways to sort of shape my physicality and to look for the physicality of others to try and kind of like show up or manipulate the way that I'm showing up. And I'm not using manipulate and with a moral judgment there, but just change the way that I'm showing up in a way where I'm checking as many boxes as I possibly can so that we have the positive outcome that we talked about wanting early in that conversation.

52:58Jonathan Fields: Is there a risk of crossing a line at some point where I'm moving from actually, I'm showing up in a way which is no longer, which is in service of the other or the conversation or the outcome more than it's in service of me showing up authentically anymore. So are you asking me the phrase, I think it was coined by Mary Kay Ash, if I showed up faking it till I make it? Yeah. Is there a risk of giving up so much of ourselves in the name of creating a particular dynamic or outcome that we kind of feel like we're losing ourselves in the mix? And even though we may get the outcome that we thought we wanted, we feel like we're kind of hollowing ourselves out inside.

53:48Let's talk about this. There is a quote that was coined by the late Mary Kay Ash, founder of Mary Kay, and the quote was, fake it till you make it. So Linda Clemens has a quote. I have a quote for you. The fake will fade because the true essence of who you are is going to begin to surface. So I want to give you an acronym. Think of tap dancing, tapping on the table, T as in Tom, A as in Apple, P as in Paul. And we're talking about your best self. Because you know, just like there are many faces of Eve and many faces of Adam, I want you to show up. We're talking about your best self. So I want you to think about this acronym.

54:33When you are your truthful self, best self. That's the T, truthful. You will show up in your authentic best self. So if you've got the truth, you're authentic, then it shows up in the proof and the proof is your nonverbal. See, when you come across desperate, if you will, by trying to pour everything, get somebody to like me, trying to do this, then losing breath as you're looking at them, taking their temperature, Are they liking me? Then you're going up for air again. That makes people uneasy, if you will, because there are other narratives that are going on and there are other stories that are taking place as to why you're showing up that way.

55:19People who are confident and in control know who they are. They know the value that they bring and they stand on that. They're sure about that. When they share their expertise. They share it in stories, examples of the outcome, and they know. If you are just sharing information to get validation, and by the way, facial validation, what if you have an interviewer that does not give you that validation? When I say validation, when someone says something, the eyebrows go, oh, okay, huh, and the sounds and the mouth and the twitching of the lip and the eyes just to let someone know that you're with them, if you will.

56:05Some people may not be that way. They may be very stoic. They may be the poker face, as they call it. And then you may be a kinesthetic communicator, dominated kinesthetic, and you're looking for that emotional connection. And you could take it personal if you're not getting it. If the individual perhaps is analytical, now you're falling apart. He or she doesn't like me. So tap, tap, tap when you are your truthful, positive self. A, your authentic, positive self. P will show up in the proof that's in your body.

56:46Jonathan Fields: And those are pretty good words for living, I think, in general, too. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

57:04Oh, what comes up for me? I think of Irma Bobback, if you will, the late Irma Bobback. And she says that when I, and I'm paraphrasing again, Clematizing, that when I leave this earth and stand before my maker, I want to stand empty, empty, because I used everything that I've got. I left everything on earth so that way I can continue to live on. Now that's the Linda Clements part of it. So when I hear that, I just want to be able to touch people in a way that their lives are better, better so that they can spread that joy and live that good life as well.

57:53Jonathan Fields: Thank you. hey before you leave be sure to tune in next week for our conversation with julia minson about how to disagree better so you can have less drama and more impact in your life your work and your community and be sure to follow good light project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss any upcoming episodes this episode of good light project was produced by executive producers lindsey fox and me jonathan fields editing help by alejandro ramirez and trory young Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts.

58:30Jonathan Fields: If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it with just one person. If you want to share it with more, hey, that's awesome. But just one person, even then, invite them to talk with you about what you both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.

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