Actor Laurence Olivier with Derek Jacobi and Tim Walker

0:00Tim Walker:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30Derek Jacobi:School ready at Whole Foods Market. I found it the biggest fun. The idea of pretending to be somebody else, of making an audience believe that I was somebody else. The words of Laurence Olivier, Baron Olivier of Brighton, actor, director, first head of the National Theatre, star. It's amazing this series has run so long and no one has proposed him before. So I'm delighted to welcome his nominator, Tim Walker, to our show, and also to let you know that we're recording in the home of Sir Derek Jacoby, who began his professional career as one of the founding members of the National Theatre at the age of just 23.

1:12Derek Jacobi:And he's with us too. But Tim Walker first. Why, Tim, are you nominating, what should I say, Larry? Should I say Sir Lawrence, Lord Olivier? What should we say? You like to be called Sir Lawrence.

1:24Tim Walker:And there's some debate about how you say Olivier. I mean, And I've had arguments with directors who will say to me, it's yay at the end. So I first became aware of him as this man that everybody felt was amazing. And, you know, my parents would say, my goodness, there's the lance in this admittedly awful film, like maybe Clash of the Titans or playing Rudolf Hess in Wild Geese 2. But there was a kind of grandeur about him, even in terrible films.

1:50Derek Jacobi:Tim Walker, I should add, is best known as a journalist for nearly every paper. And you wrote a play about him, him and Mrs Thatcher.

1:58Tim Walker:I mean, this was a big secret. People like Derek, who were in his inner circle, knew. But he was nevertheless a very private person, a very discreet person. And Thatcher, basically, he changed her voice. He made it somewhat deeper. He certainly made her hair much bigger. He did things, you know, with her makeup and her outfits and transformed her from being a Miss Prism into kind of a real-life Lady Bracknell. Slightly camp, slightly over-the-top, wouldn't work today, but he made that metamorphosis for her. Scratchy and screechy, and he stopped her being screechy. Absolutely. And you yourself, in your own memoirs, called her scratchy.

2:37Tim Walker:A lot of people didn't seem to even remark upon it, but there's wonderful footage of a young Michael Cockerell, the television journalist running alongside her and saying, Mrs Thatcher, you seem very different to how you were yesterday. And she said, no, I don't think I am. And he said, but you are. And who were your two stars in the play? Well, the great Derek Jacoby, who was himself a protégé of Sir Lawrence, and Francis Barber, who admittedly doesn't look anything like Mrs Thatcher, but on radio she did sound like her. And that's all that mattered. Yes, she did.

3:07Derek Jacobi:Derek Jacoby. So, Derek, you were invited to become one of the founding members of the National Theatre, along with all kinds of famous people, Maggie Smith, Joan Plowright. Tell us about that time. Was he an intimidating man? He was a god. To me, he was a god. I remember him saying, call me Larry. I could no more call him Larry than fly to the moon. He was always Sir Lawrence, and he was a wonderful employer. He was a great friend. He was so encouraging. And there was nothing grand about him at all. And it was he who kick-started the whole idea of the National Theatre, wasn't it? Yeah, indeed it was.

3:49Derek Jacobi:It was his baby. And that's what he called us all. We were his babies. He was a father figure. He was great. But eminently approachable. There was nothing grand about him. Any plays that he directed you in? Othello was one, wasn't it? Yes, I, what did I play? And I'm so old now, I forget everything, forgive me. But it was a lovely, lovely part. Not Iago. That was Frank Finlay. That was wonderful Frank. No, it's gone, it's gone. But it was a good part. It was a very good part. And to be up on the stage with Sir Lawrence and the effect that he had on an audience, that they're almost in awe of him.

4:33Derek Jacobi:You know, it was wonderful. Did you know about his coaching, Mrs Thatcher? I discovered that at some point, that he had given her lessons. And I thought, what the hell has he taught her? You know, I mean, I wouldn't have thought that voice came anywhere near Laurence Olivier. But apparently he did. Thatcher was in effect a theatrical creation, you've said in an interview, Tim, and Larry as well. Let's hear him speak. This is Sir Lawrence Olivier. Take a listen. You have always impressed me as probably the most physical fit actor I've ever seen. Is this true? Yes, I am. I am very physically fit.

5:17Derek Jacobi:I work hard at a gymnasium whenever I get the opportunity, well, at least two hours a week. And I think it's an essential thing for an actor. I think if people ask me what is the prime requirement or qualification for an actor, I would say physical strength is almost the first. And this is Maggie Smith. The first time I ever saw him at the dress rehearsal of Othello when I'd never seen him in the make-up or anything, I mean, I was really so astonished because he looked so amazingly different. I mean, I don't know how he does that, to sort of vanish as a person and reappear as somebody else, but it really was an astonishing sight.

5:51Derek Jacobi:I mean, it was quite extraordinary. Famous voices. Oh, yes, I adored Maggie. We were great, great chums. I learned so much from Mags she was a superb actress and just hearing her there was very emotional

6:11Tim Walker:what she didn't mention there was when she saw him in his make-up in his Othello make-up you can tell the story

6:18Derek Jacobi:well the story I knew is that they had adjoining dressing rooms and on matinee days she would put the Supremes on baby love I'm not going to let the old bugger sleep She said, I'm going to keep him awake.

6:34Tim Walker:But she adored him. But she took the mick out of him. Like, he did once. And this has been documented, and Maggie herself has talked about it. We're so annoyed by her, although it was in the part and he had to do it, he slapped her with some force. Yes, he did. He did. He hit her. Gosh, gosh.

6:51Derek Jacobi:Laurence Olivier was born in Dorking in Surrey. His father was a rector, and his mother died suddenly when he was only 12. Do we know when he began acting, either of you? I think at school.

7:03Tim Walker:At school. I mean, and famously, he was just 17, and Ellen Terry was in the audience. I mean, as she is, you know, in school productions. I don't know quite how that happened. I think I saw a picture of him too in a school production in drag. I mean, he played a queen in Shakespeare. But even at that age, you know, for Ellen Terry to say he wasn't playing Brutus, he was Brutus. You know, he was this great actress. This word great has been hanging around his head a bit like a millstone because when you are the greatest, it's very difficult to keep it going. And I think that's why people, perhaps towards the end of his career, did take the mickey out of him a little bit.

7:38Tim Walker:And he became arguably, I think younger actors nowadays will always think it's a style of acting that's not fashionable anymore. But poor chappy simply acted the way he was taught. We were all in awe.

7:50Derek Jacobi:Peggy Ashcroft was also contemporary. she said that his hair stood on end but he was intensely lively and fun how about you sir derrick what were you like as a young man did your hair stand on end no i was called carrots because i i had flame red hair constant embarrassment with bright red hair and freckles covered in freckles gosh they're not gone not the prettiest sight yes all gone how did acting How did acting become a career for you? That's what I wanted to do from the year dot. That's what I wanted to be. There was nothing in the house or in the family that suggested theatre was going to be my career.

8:35Derek Jacobi:I was just born like it. Here's another actor, Toby Jones, reading from the Radio 4 Book of the Week, Olivier, back in 2013. Lawrence, nicknamed Paddy due to his explosive temper, does not seem to have been a prepossessing child. According to a family friend, he learnt deliberately to provoke his father's wrath in order to produce more love and attention from his mother. He felt an urgent need to ingratiate himself with all around him. Everyone likes to be liked, but Olivier's craving for popularity was both exaggerated and enduring. He's coy. He's vain. He has tantrums. He needs to be wooed, said his friend and admirer, Eliakazan, many years later.

9:28Derek Jacobi:Tim, I was struck by what was said about his mother and his desire for her love and affection. Tell me more.

9:36Tim Walker:Well, I think his father, who was a vicar, was quite a remote vicar. But his mum, Agnes, he was very, very close to. I think most of us are, to be perfectly honest. It's a much closer relationship with our mum. And so when she died unexpectedly of a brain tumour, when he was just 12, of course it hurt him terribly. And I think, you know, I think about my own mother. You know, I could literally go mad with a machine gun in the office and she would say, well, they all deserved it. You know, your mother has unequivocal love and support for you. And I think if you lose that, if I'd lost that at an early age, I think you would chase it in other people.

10:11Tim Walker:And I think all the women in his life, you know, although he's married three times, there were lots of other women in his life. And I think he was kind of chasing that affirmation, that validation, that you can only really get from a mother.

10:22Derek Jacobi:My father's only advice was stop making an exhibition of yourself. Oh, I've heard that said to me. Fortunately, I didn't take the advice. Neither of us would have had the careers that we've had. No, exactly, exactly. Was Sir Lawrence an immediate success?

10:37Tim Walker:Well, it was his great old rival, John Gielgud, who gave him his first break in, I think, Romeo and Juliet. So he kind of owed it to Gielgud. And I think, you know, like Derek, Birmingham Rep was the big thing in his career, which got him going. And that was where he spotted you. And I think that's where he had an affinity. He was a sort of father figure to me.

10:55Derek Jacobi:We had a very close relationship, more than just a renowned, famous actor and a young, upcoming young actor, you know. Noel Coward did quite a bit to help him early in his career, didn't he?

11:10Tim Walker:amazing production of Private Lives, and, you know, Noel Coward mentored him to some extent. And I think, you know, he talked to him in his book about how when he did his early films, he was, you know, he was being too theatrical, and directors were saying that's not, you know, less, it's more. And it did take him a while to adapt. I mean, even now when you look at Rebecca or Ruthering Heights, it seems slightly mannered, but it was of its time.

11:33Derek Jacobi:Here's a few famous voices on his acting style, beginning with Evelyn Asher, who knew him at drama school. He was always being ticked off for waving his arms too much or dramatic gestures or suddenly producing some extraordinary piece of business which nobody had ever thought of. With Hamlet, he actually raised his brow line to an enormous extent by shaving off the whole top half of his hair. I thought he was a dazzling actor, that the voice was virtuosic, that he was completely in the character and I don't think that the reports of how good he was are exaggerated by wit. You're listening to The Great Life of Sir Lawrence Olivier, Lord Olivier, nominated by Tim Walker and we're recording today in the home of Sir Derek Jacoby.

12:24Derek Jacobi:Can we talk about his wives? His first marriage was to Jill Esmond about whom he later said, poor old Jill, she didn't deserve much, but she deserved better than me. And then he met Vivian Lee. Tell me either of you about that relationship. I only met Vivian, I think, once. Immediately fell under the spell. She was hypnotic. She was beautiful. Vocally, she was extremely alluring too. He obviously adored her.

12:58Tim Walker:Was he a good husband, do you think, Tim? No, I don't think so. I mean, Jill Esmond would no doubt if she was still alive say he wasn't because clearly he was having a relationship with Vivian Leigh while he was still married to her, as indeed Vivian Leigh was still married to somebody else. So it was a colossal mess. But I think he couldn't really help himself. I think he flirted with men, he flirted with women. He was very camp. Absolutely. Yes, really, very camp.

13:25Derek Jacobi:Because it was the essence of masculinity. but he could flap his wrists like no tomorrow. Vivian fell into his life like a wounded bird, writes Roger Lewis in his Real Life of Laurence Olivier. Callow with Jill Esmond, patriarchal with Joan Plowright. With Vivian and in his prime, he was a hero, beset by sin and a demigod afflicted by fallibility. They never got over each other. What do you make of that, Tim?

13:54Tim Walker:And, you know, unlike Derek, you know, he hadn't been to university. He wasn't a great intellect, you know, and he often would compare himself to John Gielgud and say, you know, he was an actor who acted, you know, very much with the cranium, whereas he acted with the rest of his body. And I mean, there have been, you know, a guy called Donald Spotto wrote a book suggesting a relationship with Danny Cape. I don't think that was true. But I think like all good actors, I think the kind of aspect of him where he could flirt with men and women. And that's why you looked at him. And he had the whole audience looking at him.

14:24Tim Walker:Absolutely, absolutely.

14:26Derek Jacobi:He appealed to every aspect of those watching him. Here's Sir Lawrence talking about trying to get on with Rafe Richardson in an interview with Michael Billington on Radio 4. I said, come and have a drink, won't you? And he said, oh, yes, thank you. Not very willing, but quite pleased to have a drink. And I said, what would you like? He said, I'll have a half pint, I think, please. And I said, thank you very much, a half pint. and a gin and pep, please. He said, what? I said, gin and pep? He said, what on earth, then? I said, well, it's gin, half gin and half peppermint cordial. He said, good God.

15:05Derek Jacobi:He said, nice. I said, I don't care if it's nice or not. And I risked it. I took a big risk in making an effeminate joke. I said, oh, yes, I like it very much. Actually, it's very good for the ovaries. To my great relief, he laughed. And we've been friends ever since then. That was in 1925 or 6. Oh, that's sweet. Well, we should say that in the war he joined the fleet air arm and then began working on Henry V where, as we've said before, he went to great lengths to look the part. Later he would play King Lear and he took great care to prepare and eat a wild rabbit, replacing its innards with a piece of salmon which looked almost the same and probably shocked the audience.

15:53Derek Jacobi:Here he is though in Richard III with Rafe Richardson. I'm keen to know what you both think of this. What's o 'clock? I am thus bold to put your grace in mind of what you promised me. Well, but what's o 'clock? Upon the stroke of ten. Then let it strike! Why, let it strike. Because that like a jack thou keep'st the stroke betwixt thy beginning and my meditation. I'm not in the giving vein today. Why, then resolve me whether you will or no. How trouble is to me. I'm not in the vein.

16:33Tim Walker:Gloriously over the top. Yes, wonderful. He had that thing, Derek has it too, and it's very unfair. For some reason, you look at somebody when they're on a stage, you look at them when they're in a film, you're aware of them. But he was very declamatory. He wanted the people at the back of the stage to hear, you know, for sure. I mean, I remember interviewing Jonathan Miller once, and he said when he was playing Shylock, he said, you're going to have to take at least three inches off that nose. That sort of thing doesn't work these days. But Lowry, that was the kind of actor he was. He had to get the look, you know, he had to get the walk, he had to get all the physical.

17:07Tim Walker:I think it's called acting from the outside in. But also he had that thrilling voice.

17:14Derek Jacobi:He had notes in his voice that were just made to fill a theatre.

17:20Tim Walker:And he did something with his eyes too. His eyes could sort of raise to the top of his head. He was an incredibly flirtatious man. Oh, he was. And I think you see that on stage, he couldn't help himself.