In short
Adrian Edmondson and music writer Patrick Humphreys discuss English folk singer Sandy Denny—her impact on Englishness and folk-rock, her songwriting and voice, her career path (Straubs, Fairport Convention, Fotheringay), and the circumstances around her early death.
Guest backgrounds
Adrian Edmondson is known for The Young Ones, Bottom, The Bad Shepherds, MasterChef, EastEnders, and Channel 5’s Sam and Ade Go Birding. Patrick Humphreys is an author who has written about Nick Drake, Tom Waits, Richard Thompson, and interviewed Sandy Denny for NME.
Key claims
Denny made the folk tradition “living” and modern; her voice emotionally connects more than intellectual enjoyment; Fairport’s folk-rock flowering is largely her influence; she should have gone solo sooner.
Notable examples
Her duet on Led Zeppelin IV (“Battle of Evermore”); Fairport’s “Liege & Lief” and electric folk approach; her early life at Kingston Art College and Barge Folk Club; her nervous but powerful stage presence; the Led Zeppelin connection via Melody Maker polls; the Cornwall stair-fall, alcohol/drug complications, and her husband Trevor Lucas and daughter Georgia going to Australia.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOSandy Denny's Impact on Folk Music
1:44 to 2:52
Discussion on Sandy Denny's significance in English folk music.
“What took you so long to appear on our show?”
Adrian's First Encounter with Sandy Denny
2:52 to 3:45
Adrian recounts his first experience with Sandy Denny's music.
“And I think I feel a large part of my Englishness, of what I think of my Englishness, comes from Sandy Denny.”
Sandy Denny's Early Singing Experiences
3:45 to 4:47
A look at Sandy Denny's early singing journey and college days.
“Your choice for great lives, Sandy Denny.”
Patrick Humphreys on Sandy Denny
4:47 to 5:19
Patrick shares insights from his interview with Sandy Denny.
“And she sounds so different to her singing voice.”
Sandy Denny's Struggles and Relationships
5:19 to 6:01
Exploration of Sandy's personal struggles and life challenges.
“Yes, it was for her last solo album Rendezvous.”
Sandy Denny's Performances and Stage Presence
6:01 to 7:12
Discussion on Sandy Denny's performance style and stage presence.
“She'd been in the straws, but of course, the breakthrough was with Fairport, Fairport Convention.”
Sandy Denny's Early Life and Family Background
7:12 to 8:00
Insights into Sandy Denny's family background and upbringing.
“She showed them how you can make one of these songs into this kind of thing.”
The Tragedy of Sandy Denny's Death
8:00 to 9:12
Discussion on the circumstances surrounding Sandy Denny's tragic death.
“Her whole life seems to me a sadness and a joy at the same time.”
Sandy Denny's Success and Recognition
9:12 to 14:03
Evaluating Sandy Denny's career success and achievements.
“I mean, can we say, I mean, there was no kind of agreement.”
Sandy Denny's Impact on Led Zeppelin
14:03 to 14:32
Learn about Sandy Denny's unique contribution to one of the best-selling albums of all time.
“But I mean, the one point that it's worth making, I mean, Adrian mentioned that she was on Led Zeppelin 4, which is one of the biggest selling albums of all time.”
Show all 22 chapters
The Formation of Fairport Convention
15:07 to 16:39
Explore the beginnings of Fairport Convention and Sandy Denny's role.
“tell us about Fairport Convention she left the Straubs who were this band?”
Sandy Denny's Vocal Talent
16:40 to 18:08
Insights into Sandy Denny's exceptional vocal abilities and legacy.
“Here's her biographer, Mick Howden, talking to Keris Matthews in 2015.”
Leaving Fairport Convention
18:09 to 18:58
Discussion on Sandy Denny's departure from Fairport Convention and her career choices.
“Tell me a bit more about her leaving Fairport Convention.”
Contradictions in Sandy Denny's Life
18:59 to 20:08
Understanding the complexities and contradictions in Sandy Denny's decisions.
“but I think the mistake with the career was that she should have gone solo immediately after Fairport.”
Sandy Denny's Musical Influence
20:09 to 21:30
Insights into how personal relationships influenced Sandy Denny's music.
“in a world like that, where you're a woman and you're quite small.”
Recognition and Acclaim
21:31 to 22:24
Discussion of the recognition Sandy Denny received during her career.
“She was, as we've said, voted top female vocalist in 1970 at the Melody Maker Awards, where the top male was Led Zeppelin's Robert Plant.”
Collaboration with Led Zeppelin
22:25 to 23:05
Exploring Sandy Denny's connection with Led Zeppelin and its significance.
“Well, I mean, Zeppelin were the biggest band on the planet for the first time in six years.”
Songwriting and Lyrical Depth
23:06 to 24:48
An exploration of the songwriting style and themes in Sandy Denny's music.
“Well, it is south of the river, that's OK.”
Sandy Denny Offstage
24:49 to 25:56
Insights into Sandy Denny's personality and struggles offstage.
“I'm like a different person in my music.”
Relationships and Personal Life
25:57 to 27:31
Discussion on Sandy Denny's complex relationships and their impact on her life.
“I think if you're in the music industry and you're smoking a lot, taking some weed...”
Advice to a Young Sandy Denny
27:32 to 28:00
Reflecting on what advice could have guided Sandy Denny's career choices better.
“Well, yes, she was in touch because she's just putting a book together which she asked me to contribute to and there are a couple of events that she wants to notify you about which afterwards I'll give you details of.”
The Pressure of Popularity on Sandy Denny
28:00 to 28:48
Explore the challenges Sandy Denny faced in her solo career and the impact of popularity.
“Because I think the popularity would have come if she'd carried on doing what she started out doing.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Ade Edmondson:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
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1:09Patrick Humphries:BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.
1:13Ade Edmondson:Today's guest came to prominence as a memorable part of The Young Ones. I don't want to make you feel old, Adrian, because you're younger than me, but you've been a famous man now for over 40 years. There was Filthy Rich and Catflap, followed by Bottom with Rick Mayle, plus your band, The Bad Shepherds, a winning appearance on MasterChef, EastEnders, and now a remarkable reinvention as a twitcher on Sam and Ade Go Birding on Channel 5. Welcome, Adrian Edmondson. What took you so long to appear on our show? I don't know, because I've listened to every single episode of it.
1:51Mick Houghton:Have you really? I have, yeah, I'm a big fan. And I'm, you know, I'm a pensioner. I've got teenage grandchildren. You become old, don't you? It just sort of happens. You don't look old. Well. Whom have you picked and why? I have picked Sandy Denny, who is, I think, the most important English folk singer of our era. I don't know what our era is. Post-Water now. I've dabbled, as you mentioned, in the folk world. The tradition is something they talk about a lot. The tradition meaning all the old songs that exist, that have been collected by all these sort of august collectors. The oeuvre. Yeah. And some people kind of treat it as a museum and they kind of do very faithful reproductions.
2:31Mick Houghton:And some people, very few, but Sandy's one of them, grab them and they make the tradition a living, breathing thing. When you change something, you can make it more relevant. And I think what her abiding kind of skill is, is in giving it a sense of identity that's relevant. And I think I feel a large part of my Englishness, of what I think of my Englishness, comes from Sandy Denny.
3:01Ade Edmondson:How old were you when you first encountered her?
3:04Mick Houghton:I was about, it was 1971 because it was Led Zepp IV. So I came across her as a kind of crossover. Led Zepp, famously heavy rock band, but she sings a duet on the Battle of Evermore on Led Zepp 4. And in our common room, we were very keen on sort of back-referencing. We read our album covers back to front and inside out, and we found Leige and Leaf, their Fairport convention album, that had come out a couple of years earlier. And we were all just kind of stuck. It seemed very right to us. It seemed a very right album, and it's rarely been off my turntable since. Let's hear her.
3:46Ade Edmondson:Your choice for great lives, Sandy Denny. Here she is.
3:50Richard Thompson:When I was very small, I used to sing a lot, and then when I went to my grammar school, you know, after I took my 11-plus, I never sang there at all except in the choir, very innocuously in the background, you know. Then when I left school, I went to art college. I was at Kingston Art College, and just down the road there was a little barge on the river called the Barge Folk Club, and I used to go down there. And I thought, well, I can sing as well as the East, you know, when I heard these people singing. So I learnt to play the guitar very badly. I plucked up courage the next week to get up and sing a song, and from then on, I just always...
4:27Richard Thompson:I started doing just gigs around the country, and then it got to be a little bit too much going to college and doing gigs and turning up late and having people congratulate me for coming in at two o 'clock in the afternoon and things. So I decided that rather than waste everybody else's time, I'd just, you know, I'd get out and do it.
4:45Mick Houghton:That's amazing. I've never heard her speak before.
4:47Ade Edmondson:I was going to ask you. I mean, she sounds so natural. Yeah.
4:50Mick Houghton:And she sounds so different to her singing voice.
4:52Ade Edmondson:Mm, yes. Simple question. How much do you know about her life? I think I know some of it. Well, I've heard one person's take on it. Yeah. Also with us in the studio to help us with that we have Patrick Humphreys, author of books on Nick Drake, Tom Waits, Richard Thompson and you interviewed Sandy Denny for the NME just a year before her awful death. Tell us about that interview. What was she like?
5:22Sandy Denny:Yes, it was for her last solo album Rendezvous. I'd known Sandy's work since February. I saw her with Fairport and saw what turned out to be her last show at the Royalty. And, yeah, just delighted to be there. She was very... No, strangely nervous. I mean, she'd been doing this for seven or eight years, but strangely nervous. And I do remember, I think she was talking about possibly moving to America. Her brother was in the music industry in America and, effectively, her career in England, Europe, was pretty much over.
5:54Ade Edmondson:Did you get the impression she felt then that she'd reached the end of some kind of road?
5:59Sandy Denny:Yes, I mean, I think looking back on the career, she, as you mentioned earlier, played the folk clubs around her home, Wimbledon, Kingston, Richmond. She'd been in the straws, but of course, the breakthrough was with Fairport, Fairport Convention. and when I interviewed, the first book I ever wrote was about Fairport and I interviewed Simon Nichol the written guitarist and I asked his memories of Sandy's audition and he had this great quote, he said she stood out like a crystal glass in a sink full of dirty dishes that's lovely and so Fairport of course, Legion Leaf the third Fairport album in one year alone in 1969
6:38Mick Houghton:was that a standard for the time?
6:40Sandy Denny:no, it was exceptional and I think Legion Leaf, while it's heralded and rightly celebrated the great English traditional album, I think what they were trying to do was to make... The band and Dylan made Americana, what we now call Americana. I think Fairport was trying to do the same thing with the English tradition, taking 400-year-old folk songs and ramming 400 watts of Vox amplifiers up and really, really revving them up.
7:04Mick Houghton:They only kind of survived because of the kind of intensity of her voice and the way she can tap into ancient but still make it sound modern.
7:12Sandy Denny:Yes.
7:12Mick Houghton:She brought to Fairport Fairport before that time I think were trying to be the band or Jefferson Airplane and she was the one who brought the folk element to them She brought a couple of folk and by the time she finished with Fairport the band went on to spawn the Albion Band and Steel Ice Band this huge flowering of folk rock as it's called and I think that comes entirely from her which is why I think she's the inspiration for that. She showed them how you can make one of these songs into this kind of thing.
7:46Ade Edmondson:I think that's a fair point. I feel that her early death, aged just 31, is going to slightly hang over our discussion unless we get it out of the way. So maybe we should quickly deal with it and then enjoy who she was and how she sang. What happened?
8:01Mick Houghton:Her whole life seems to me a sadness and a joy at the same time. She seems to be a party girl, but she seems to slide downwards very quickly. she had a party trick of falling downstairs
8:14Ade Edmondson:oh dear
8:16Mick Houghton:and eventually this sort of tumbled over and became a real thing and she tumbled over on holiday with her parents down in Cornwall I think and it hurt her head very badly and was given some kind of drug to deal with that and it's a drug that doesn't work very well with alcohol so she carried on drinking and then fell down again and died
8:36Ade Edmondson:her husband had just gone to Australia with their daughter her.
8:41Sandy Denny:Yes, yes, I think there's an image of Sandy as this blonde, untouchable goddess, but she was a woman in a man's world, I mean the music interview at that time was very misogynistic and I think to keep up she hammered the drink you know, and she was very small I'm sure she could cope with the drink but she drank quite heavily and I believe Trevor the husband did not think that her as a mother was an ideal role for her so yes, he'd taken Georgia to Australia, which must have been heartbreakable. I mean, can we say, I mean, there was no kind of agreement. No, no.
9:17Mick Houghton:And then four days later, Sandy falls down some stairs. So whether it's a decision to fall down the stairs or not, I don't know.
9:23Sandy Denny:I think there were a lot of elements came to play. And I think that the fact that her career wasn't progressing, she was being dropped by a record label, her only child had been taken away from her. I think there are a lot of elements in there.
9:35Ade Edmondson:Yes, it's always more than one thing. But to hear far more positively is her bandmate in Fairport Convention, Richard Thompson, talking in 2010 on Radio 2. She was a great singer.
9:49Patrick Humphries:She had great vocal equipment, terrific range, sang unbelievably in tune and had real vocal style and passion. You know, everything you want in a singer, you know, she absolutely had it. As a person, she was larger than life, could be moody, but it was often like hilariously funny, you know. But when she walked in a room, she tended to be the dominant figure in the room. And for us, a bunch of shy, retiring North London studio types, this was a bit of a shock. And at the same time, it was something that we probably needed in our lives.
10:21Mick Houghton:I think Rich is right in that, to me, she has a voice that connects straight to my heart. A lot of singers you can enjoy intellectually. Oh, completely. Hers just seems to emotionally connect. completely and I agree. What was she like on stage though? Well I believe she could be nervous but very powerful in the way I think most people I mean I've been performing my life you sort of use nerves to kind of help yourself get up there.
10:49Sandy Denny:Yes I mean I always felt behind the piano on stage she was a lot more comfortable doing wonderful songs like Solo and like an old fashioned waltz. She seemed more comfortable behind the piano and I mean it is odd given that she'd been performing for you know since she was a young teenager there was still that a palpable sense of nervousness on stage.
11:07Ade Edmondson:Let's start with her early life. She was born Alexandra Denny in Wimbledon in January 1947. What do we know about her parents, either of you?
11:18Mick Houghton:I think they were kind of conventional. I think she had some Gaelic-speaking grandparents on her dad's side. Yeah. But it sounds to me like she had a very ordinary kind of Merton Park upbringing.
11:30Sandy Denny:Famously, of course, her parents were pictures on the cover of... Yes, I've got it in front of me.
11:35Ade Edmondson:middle class mum and dad with a church spire in the background
11:39Mick Houghton:and yet they're on the cover when I was in my pomp I don't think I would have ever put my parents on the cover no, you can only just see the band
Read the full transcript
11:46Ade Edmondson:behind a trellis fence and she got her parents in the foreground
11:51Mick Houghton:and you know he used to drive her about so there are some kind of stories that she had a fractious relationship with them but I think it's pretty good
11:58Sandy Denny:I do remember friends of hers saying that the relationship with the mother was troubled the father was a very decent man by all accounts
12:05Ade Edmondson:According to her father, she was always rebellious, constantly in hot water, inattentive, and tremendously loyal in that she would never give her friends away. He told her biographer, I daren't show you her school reports. What about you, Adrian? What were you like at school? You looked such a sweet boy on this photograph that I have of you. My dad was a teacher.
12:27Mick Houghton:I'm surprised he never understood the language I was using to cover up what my reports said. so my reports were never good
12:37Ade Edmondson:were you a sweet boy?
12:39Mick Houghton:no, not particularly we used to get given a book of rules at the beginning of every term and used to use them as something to tick off and how did you get your break? well, much like Sandy I think the way for most performers is to do it in small places first and hopefully eventually get paid what were you doing? Rick and I had a sort of double act we were doing we were taking the mick out of Samuel Beckett eesodary things like that
13:07Ade Edmondson:I've read that one of the first people to spot Sandy was the singer with the Straubs Dave Cousins I went up to her he says how do you fancy joining a group? and she said yes
13:19Sandy Denny:yes and of course the first version of the time ago was recorded with the Straubs that album she did with the Straubs
13:25Mick Houghton:that album didn't come out for years no No, no. It came out a lot later. Did it come out posthumously?
13:30Sandy Denny:It came out on some budget label while she was alive. But no, the album she did with the straw was very good, which led to Fairport and that famous audition and those three albums. Did she enjoy success? She had success in her life. Did you think she enjoyed it? I think she would have liked more. I mean, I remember she said, you know, she was quite small and she'd be lugging her big guitar around to gigs and the taxi driver would say, what do you do, love? And she'd say, I'm a singer. What's your name? Sadie Denny. Never heard of you. And I think that kind of wore her down a bit. But I mean, the one point that it's worth making, I mean, Adrian mentioned that she was on Led Zeppelin 4, which is one of the biggest selling albums of all time.
14:10Sandy Denny:She's got Stairway to Heaven on it. Sold millions of copies. She's the only ever guest vocalist on a Led Zeppelin record. And for two consecutive years, she won the Melody Maker poll for Best Female Vocalist. This was a very big deal back in the early 70s.
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14:57Ade Edmondson:out of that. You're listening to The Great Life of Sandy Denny picked here by Adrian Edmondson and helping us to trace her life is Patrick Humphreys. Patrick tell us about Fairport Convention she left the Straubs who were this band?
15:12Sandy Denny:North London is a place called Muswell Hill I believe I mean when I wrote the Fairport book one of them came from Gospel Oak which I thought was in Louisiana I'm South London so it was North London Simon Nicoll the guitarist lived in a house called Fairport. They began as a covers band, American Covers Bob Dylan, Love Jefferson Airplane and gradually, I think Adrian's right, when Sandy joined the traditional element entered into their work. So you had this combination of a, I wouldn't say a rock and roll band, but I mean they were a group that played with electric instruments using traditional English material.
15:51Mick Houghton:There's a weird thing that happens in Fairport history isn't there, which is after those first two albums she made with them there was a tragic crash on the M1 and the drummer and a friend died in it. And so Legion Leaf was a contractual obligation. I sort of made slightly under duress, perhaps. Maybe that kind of sadness is what kind of inspires... The crash happened after Legion Leaf,
16:17Sandy Denny:so they'd done Legion Leaf.
16:18Mick Houghton:Are you sure about that? I'm not entirely sure. I thought farewell, farewell was...
16:21Sandy Denny:Well, I'm trying to think. Fairport themselves still carry on. I mean, you know, every year there's a Cropperty Festival, which I believe you... I played the Cropperty Festival. It was a lovely event. It was a great show. And they carry on. I mean, you know, as well as Sandy, of course you had Richard Thompson, who, bless him, is still going.
16:39Mick Houghton:I mean, I think Richard and Sandy made, you know, a really good musical partnership.
16:44Ade Edmondson:Here's her biographer, Mick Howden, talking to Keris Matthews in 2015. She knew how good she was as a singer.
16:52Mick Houghton:and I find it quite difficult to talk about her voice other than the fact it really even having written a book about her and spent four years working on this it still gets to me, still moves me to hear her there's a lovely description by Dave Swarbrick he's not alone in saying that she was the best singer that he'd ever heard and I think he talks about how all the kind of ornamentation and decoration that was her forte that she could and she could bring that into a folk song even when she was being backed by an electric band.
17:28Patrick Humphries:Did she have a very powerful voice? It sounds like she was very naturally powerful.
17:31Mick Houghton:No she did, she did. I think Shirley Collins is full of praise and you know for Shirley I think she only liked folk music unadorned if you like but she thought Sandy was the best as well.
17:43Patrick Humphries:She never seemed to put too much adornment did she Sandy though that's the thing she just put them in when you least expect it and it was right and it's brilliant and it's out there and
17:51Mick Houghton:and I was going to say that anybody that knew her or people in the band would all say that it was never captured as well on record as it was if you went to see her Really? Yeah Wow, that's a sobering thought isn't it? It is, because it was even better
18:07Sandy Denny:I think it's interesting you were saying about Richard and Sandy working together in Fairport and there was one thing that comes across and it's often over the way, they were so young that they were barely into their 20s when they were making these decisions that would go on to affect their professional careers, you know.
18:26Ade Edmondson:Tell me a bit more about her leaving Fairport Convention.
18:29Sandy Denny:There's a triumphant concert at the Festival Hall but Lloyd, one of the founding fathers if you like, a British traditional folk music scene, rushed up and embraced them afterwards. He thought this is really the way forward. Ashley Hutchings, the founder of Fairport, as Adrian said went on then to steal our span in the Alvinbad. He saw that as his direction. Sandy, I think, felt she wanted to develop her own writing the others were sort of muddling around not really sure what to do so Sandy left for Fodderingay and Fairport soldiered on but I think the mistake with the career was that she should have gone solo immediately after Fairport.
19:07Sandy Denny:Trevor wanted a group and this group Fodderingay was formed, it was a wonderful group only ever made one album unfortunately the prestige breakthrough gig was at the Albert Hall 6 ,000 fans filling the Albert Hall. The opening act was Elton John. Now, this is when Elton knew he had to make an impression. So he did the whole kick in the piano stall, Gerry Lewis on the piano, took the roof off the Albert Hall. When Fodringay came on, there was kind of an anticlimactic. And I think it sort of went a bit downhill quite quickly after that.
19:38Ade Edmondson:Here's Sandy herself in an interview a year later in NME, insisting she hadn't left to do a big solo thing, just that she didn't want to fly to America and had let them down on tour before and she said they thought I would freak out on them again. So they said it would be better if I left and I was already coming to the same conclusion.
20:01Mick Houghton:She seems to be such a mass of contradictions. Yes. I can almost see her. It must be very hard to be a very talented person in a world like that, where you're a woman and you're quite small. I mean, small does sometimes have a bearing on it. And you're faced with all these men making decisions about you. Music companies are all run by men. Everyone's kind of... You're trying to work out what's best for you. And I'm not sure she eventually knew what she wanted to do or made the right decisions.
20:38Ade Edmondson:Lots of people say her boyfriend, later husband, Trevor Lucas, had a big influence on the decision.
20:45Mick Houghton:Any thoughts on that? It's hard to know, isn't it? I mean, the poor man died when he was 45. So, you know, I've never met him. And it doesn't sound like a great relationship from everything I've heard.
20:59Sandy Denny:I don't think he was the most faithful of husbands. No. And I think he had quite a strong say in her career. I mean, you mentioned...
21:07Mick Houghton:On the first album, the Fathering Day album, he sort of said, I'll produce it. and I'll sing some of the songs. Yeah, yeah.
21:15Sandy Denny:I mean, in fairness, I think they're very good songs. Well, it's... No, I know, I know.
21:20Mick Houghton:They sound second-rate compared to... No, I don't think he's in the end of it. His voice is second-rate compared to sound.
21:26Sandy Denny:No, no, I would dispute that. I think he's certainly not in the same league,
21:30Ade Edmondson:but I think he's not as bad as you make him out to be. She was, as we've said, voted top female vocalist in 1970 at the Melody Maker Awards, where the top male was Led Zeppelin's Robert Plant. She and I really, we gravitated towards each other.
21:49Patrick Humphries:I think we were, I don't know, we were such young souls to be in the middle of it all. And I remember how proud I was when we were both voted top vocalists in our field, she and I.
22:02Sandy Denny:So there was no sign of Cliff or Shirley Bassey or anything.
22:05Patrick Humphries:We was really, it was like we'd actually done something substantial to go back home and say to our families, you see?
22:12Ade Edmondson:We're proper people. We've won something. That laugh in the background is Bob Harris, previous guest on this show. It's well worth seeking out his documentary about Sandy if you can find it online. The link with Led Zeppelin. Tell me a little more about that.
22:29Sandy Denny:Well, I mean, Zeppelin were the biggest band on the planet for the first time in six years. They were voted best band in the Melody Maker poll, which the Beatles have held for six years. People think of this sort of heavy metal behemoth, you know, this steamroller with these riffs that play to 100 ,000-watt speakers. But there's an awful amount of folk, isn't there?
22:48Mick Houghton:Especially on the Zep 4. I mean, the mandolin must be the most played instrument.
22:52Sandy Denny:Yes, and Zep 3 is very acoustic as well. So obviously there was that connection. So, you know, it's a signal honour when you think that this girl from Wimbledon is singing on what is still one of the best-selling records ever. We've all got to come from somewhere. What's wrong with Wimbledon? Well, it is south of the river, that's OK.
23:10Ade Edmondson:Let's talk about her songwriting, her lyrics. She could kind of capture a mood
23:15Mick Houghton:without defining what she was talking about. I've tried songwriting in my life and it's a very hard thing to lyrically make it sound that you know what she's talking about and yet if you then read the lyrics, it's kind of imprecise. It doesn't give any definites. and that's what allows you to put your life into her words. It's a very clever thing to do. I think North Star, Grassman and the Ravens is a great song and the other one is Solo. Solo is a fabulous song. It has a brilliant rhyme. No time for the gent in the Mulliner Bentley. We had to look at what Mulliner was, I remember at the time.
23:58Ade Edmondson:Here she is on the BBC World Service talking about her song
24:01Richard Thompson:They're usually written from experience, you know, my experiences of people. Like, sometimes those kind of metaphorical things about rivers and streams might be referring to a particular person, which is an unusual thing to say, perhaps, but, like, some people are very easily described in natural terms, like, you know, I'm in atmospheres and the way I feel always comes out in some kind of description of some kind of natural force. I don't know quite how to explain. I mean, I can't explain much more than the song itself, without trying, because when I write a song, I don't remember writing it. I can't understand.
24:50Richard Thompson:I'm like a different person in my music.
24:54Ade Edmondson:That's amazing. Like a different person in my music. I'm struggling to picture her offstage as opposed to onstage. Could I just pick up on that, the songwriting too?
25:05Sandy Denny:Yes, yes, do. There's an engineer working on a Bob Dylan album, finally plucked up courage to say to Bob Dylan, I wish I'd written Gates of Eden, and Bob Dylan said, so do I. And I think they don't know where this stuff comes from. And I think that certainly comes across from what Sandy was saying.
25:19Ade Edmondson:I'm struggling to picture her offstage. What's throwing me a bit is the kind of slight kind of East End twang in her voice
25:28Mick Houghton:compared to the very middle class tones of her singing voice.
25:32Ade Edmondson:She sounds rather quiet, rather meek, but she was wild off stage, wasn't she?
25:38Mick Houghton:I believe she was, I think from an early age. She obviously disappeared into some kind of, I don't know if it was drug abuse or just alcohol.
25:45Sandy Denny:No, I think it was mainly drink.
25:47Mick Houghton:Yeah, and so she had this kind of fiery kind of temper as far as I know. I mean, if this had been a bloke, you wouldn't be saying anything about that. I think for her time it was unusual. Yes, I think that's true. I think if you're in the music industry and you're smoking a lot, taking some weed...
26:05Sandy Denny:Chuck your television set out of a window seems a fairly reasonable thing to do. If you're a man, yeah.
26:11Ade Edmondson:There's a story about her volatility told by the singer Al Stewart in Mick Houghton's book, which is basically about him saving her life in inverted commas. She was hysterical and standing in the middle of the traffic in Cambridge Circus. I ran out into the street and just got her into a cab. Later at home, she became upset at the cost of the cab. She'd calmed down completely, so now it was my fault because I'd run up a huge bill. It was interesting how quickly she went from manic and near suicidal to being totally in control.
26:46Mick Houghton:Yeah, that was about, what was his name, that singer? The one who was horribly burnt.
26:53Sandy Denny:Oh, Jackson C. Frank. Yeah. Yes, there was a long-running affair. He was American, only ever made one album, produced by Paul Simon, Al Steele was the second guitarist. It's a very good album. T-Boy was Art Garfunkel. Great album. Yes, he was a long-standing boyfriend. That was quite a complex relationship. Yes. Because he was a lot older, wasn't he? Yes, and had been very badly burned in a fire. But they got a huge settlement. So when he came over, all the folk singers were carrying their guitars I was on the top deck of the bus and Jackson C. Frank was driving around in an Aston Martin. I think that would have impressed Sandy.
27:27Ade Edmondson:We talked about her daughter, Georgia, or rather her husband and the daughter going to Australia. You know Georgia, don't you, Patrick?
27:36Sandy Denny:Well, yes, she was in touch because she's just putting a book together which she asked me to contribute to and there are a couple of events that she wants to notify you about which afterwards I'll give you details of. Yes, I mean, she never knew her mum, really. She was taken away from her and I think is trying to reposition her into the status that she deserves.
27:57Ade Edmondson:If we could bring her back and if she were in the studio with us now and if we could wipe out the end of her life, what would your advice to her be?
28:07Mick Houghton:Not strive to be popular. Because I think the popularity would have come if she'd carried on doing what she started out doing. Just relaxed into what she could do. I think she was always second-guessing with those four solo albums. And I think she could have made herself a richer person. If they could have taken the pressure off her.
28:28Sandy Denny:Yeah. She had to have a solo career.
28:31Mick Houghton:I think she had the pressure on herself. I mean, it's very hard being, you know, popular at anything. You know, it becomes a load of pressure and you don't know what you think anymore. So, you know, you can forgive her.
28:43Ade Edmondson:My thanks to you, Adrian Edmondson and Patrick Humphreys, for bringing Sandy Denny to great lives. Goodbye.
From the publisher
Ade Edmondson - star of The Young Ones, The Comic Strip Presents, Bottom and much more besides - chooses the singer Sandy Denny. "I think a large part of my Englishness comes from Sandy Denny," he says of the singer perhaps best known for her work with Fairport Convention. The programme includes archive of Richard Thompson, Mick Houghton and Sandy herself, plus help from Patrick Humphries, who interviewed Sandy Denny shortly before her early death aged just 31.
The producer for BBC Studios is Miles Warde
