In short
Episode topic: Edith Garrod (also spelled Garrod/Garrett in places), a suffragette who taught jiu-jitsu and other physical self-defence to women, using public demonstrations and a bodyguard-training role to protect suffrage leaders and challenge ideas of women’s “daintiness.”
Guests and backgrounds
Coco Khan is a writer/journalist and host of Pod Save the UK. Dr Naomi Paxton is a researcher and performer/magician focused on the theatre/entertainment side of the Votes for Women movement.
Key claims
Garrod and her husband William opened a dojo and trained people in Japanese jiu-jitsu (via Bartitsu links). She demonstrated throws in theatres/music halls and at suffrage exhibitions (e.g., May 1909 at an ice rink in Knightsbridge). She taught self-defence twice weekly and offered free lessons for domestic-violence victims; she also trained a suffragette bodyguard unit for protection during clashes (e.g., around the 1913 “cat and mouse” bill).
Notable examples
“throw a policeman” photo storyboard; Evening Post 1909 three-round account; play “What Every Woman Ought to Know” (1911) about a slum woman learning jiu-jitsu to fight back; 1965 wristlock on a journalist at age 94; Garrod’s 1910 Votes for Women quote: “all are equal… science and agility” beat brute strength.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOCoco's Discovery of Edith Garrud
1:42 to 2:11
Discover how Coco learned about Edith Garrud through a unique gift.
“It is Edith Garrod, a woman who I must say I have not learned much about because there is not that much available online, but every single nugget is beautiful.”
Edith Garrud's Background and Influence
2:11 to 3:18
Explore Edith Garrud's early life and her impact on women's rights.
“So my origin story with Edith is quite funny, really.”
Edith's Marriage and Martial Arts Journey
3:18 to 5:15
Learn about Edith's marriage and her journey into martial arts.
“Ralph, described on Wikidata as researcher, magician, performer.”
Public Performances and Jujitsu Demonstrations
5:15 to 6:30
Understand the popularity of jujitsu performances in early 1900s Britain.
“She married in 1893, so she would have been just 21.”
Theatrical Demonstrations and Public Response
6:30 to 9:05
Review a detailed account of Edith's jujitsu demonstrations and audience reactions.
“So wrestlers, particularly in bodybuilders, musical demonstrations, a bit like, you know, can you come on and best this person or that person?”
Edith's Impact on Women's Empowerment
9:05 to 11:31
Discuss how Edith challenged gender norms and empowered women through jujitsu.
“Clouds of dust, intense enthusiasm, the biggest policeman in London wouldn't get away now, shouts the suffragette, still standing on her prostrate foe.”
Jujitsu as Self-Defense in the Suffrage Movement
11:31 to 13:20
Examine the role of jujitsu in self-defense during suffrage protests.
“Have either of you ever tried jujitsu, learned the martial arts?”
The Play and Advocacy for Women's Rights
13:20 to 14:00
Discover a play that highlights the need for self-defense among women facing domestic violence.
“So, for example, we know that there's a big demonstration called Black Friday in 1910, where uniformed and ununiformed police officers attack women who are peacefully protesting.”
Exploring the Play: Jiu-Jitsu for Women
14:00 to 15:19
Learn about a play that highlights jiu-jitsu as a means of self-defense for women facing domestic violence.
“But they give her free lessons in order that she can defend herself where her husband comes home drunk and beats her.”
The Complexity of Suffragette Narratives
15:44 to 18:10
Discuss the multifaceted nature of suffragettes and the romanticization of their struggle.
“Delivery available on qualifying orders.”
Show all 15 chapters
Edith Garrud's Role in the Suffragette Movement
18:10 to 22:54
Examine Edith Garrud's contributions to the suffragette movement and her unique focus on jiu-jitsu.
“And I suppose some of it, Coco, also was just giving women the self-confidence not to feel vulnerable because they knew they could, even if they didn't have to.”
The Evolution of Suffrage Tactics
22:54 to 27:24
Learn about the tactics used by suffragettes and the implications of their actions on the movement.
“I wonder, Coco, what other Edwardian women thought of all this.”
Edith Garrud's Legacy
27:24 to 28:00
Reflect on Edith Garrud's lasting impact and her remarkable life story.
“In 1965, on her 94th birthday, Edith performed a wristlock on a journalist during an interview for Woman magazine.”
The Life and Legacy of Edith Garrud
28:00 to 28:38
Explore the impactful life of suffragette Edith Garrud and her contributions.
“Edith Garrett died in 1971 at the age of 99.”
Edith Garrud's Insightful Words on Equality
28:38 to 29:04
Discover Garrud's powerful perspective on equality and strength in her writing.
“I think this is going to be a hit, guys.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Coco Khan:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
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0:54Dr Naomi Paxton:BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.
0:58Coco Khan:Picture this, a woman in full Edwardian dress, full skirt, corset, overcoat, hat. She's tiny, just four foot eleven inches. In front of her towers a policeman ready to attack. In one swift move, she grabs his wrist, throws him over her shoulder and pins him to the ground. This diminutive yet formidable woman is demonstrating something they called suffragitsu. And what is that? And why was she doing it? Let's ask my guest, Coco Khan, who's a writer, a journalist, a host of the political podcast Pod Save the UK. Coco, who is your rather remarkable choice of great life and why? It is Edith Garrod, a woman who I must say I have not learned much about because there is not that much available online, but every single nugget is beautiful.
1:54Coco Khan:A suffragette, she introduced jujitsu to a bodyguard unit to protect the pankhurst during clashes with police. And in doing so, she rewrote what it meant to be a woman. Not so dainty after all. She was disruptive, that's fair to say. Yes. So my origin story with Edith is quite funny, really. One Christmas, a couple of years ago, a friend of mine gave me a set of cards and it was suffragette top trumps. and I don't actually know if this was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. You know, I do like politics and I think sometimes my friends can find me a bit of a bore. And so they thought, OK, here's a funny little gift.
2:32Coco Khan:And so on each card there's a cartoon drawing of someone involved with the suffragette movement and it was really wonderful because it really showed you that the suffragette movement was enormously diverse. There were plenty of men involved with it. There were women from all of the different classes involved with it and even women from the colonies as well. And it really sort of showed you, wow, I know so little about it. But by far, the most interesting card was of this woman, Edith Garrett. And you can imagine the line drawing of a woman in a lovely Edwardian hat, and it would say, underneath just some bullet points, she knew jiu-jitsu, she taught other women to use it to defend themselves from police.
3:06Coco Khan:And you just think, is this real? But it was real life. I'm also joined by Dr Naomi Paxton to help explore this extraordinary woman's life. But Naomi, you seem rather extraordinary yourself. Ralph, described on Wikidata as researcher, magician, performer. And you're passionate about the women's suffrage movement. Are you really all these things?
3:28Dr Naomi Paxton:I am really all these things. Yes, multi-hyphenation, I think they call it now. But yes, I'm particularly passionate about the professional theatre and entertainment side of the Votes for Women movement, which Edith Garrod was a huge part of.
3:37Coco Khan:Edith Garrod was born in Bath on the 7th of April, 1872. At five years old, her family moved to Wales, returning to Bath when she was aged 16. How much do we know about her childhood? Was she an active girl?
3:52Dr Naomi Paxton:Well, it seems like it. We don't know a lot, to be honest with you, but it seems like it because she became very involved in physical culture and drill, which shows that she was obviously part of a family that maybe didn't need her to work, or certainly was she wasn't going to go into domestic service. She was allowed to express herself and her interest in physical culture, so much so that she ended up teaching girls drill and physical exercise, and then when she married, moving to London and becoming involved in martial arts. So she was obviously part of a family that celebrated girls and young women being active and visible in public space.
4:22Coco Khan:Women's health, women's exercise.
4:24Dr Naomi Paxton:Everybody's health, yeah, absolutely, yes, yeah.
4:27Coco Khan:It's actually rather intriguing that we don't know so much about her. I mean, she's obviously an extraordinary figure. Bits of her life are rather a mystery to us, Coco, don't you think? Absolutely, and I think, you know, it's an enormous loss. Even just hearing you speak now for a few minutes, yeah, I think it's fascinating.
4:45Dr Naomi Paxton:I think you're absolutely right. And obviously the hook, maybe why we don't know so much about her, is because the hook is the suffragettes, that she sort of looms into our historical view in the sort of early 1909, 1910. But she's part of a whole movement that is about getting women into public space. And that is radical by itself, particularly for her husband and wife to be working together, for her to be a married woman with children still working. She's certainly got a real eye for marketing.
5:08Coco Khan:You mentioned she was a married woman with children. Tell me about her marriage. She married quite young, didn't she?
5:14Dr Naomi Paxton:Yes, she did marry quite young. She married in 1893, so she would have been just 21. Her husband was a year older. His name was William Garrod. And both of them were very interested in physical culture. And they moved to London and they became involved in martial arts. In fact, in learning bar titsu with Edward Barton Wright in his dojo on Shaftesbury Avenue.
5:32Coco Khan:Bar titsu.
5:32Dr Naomi Paxton:If you know about Sherlock Holmes, it's the martial art that Sherlock Holmes did. This is what Arthur Conan Doyle writes in Bartitsu. But Bartitsu was a really extraordinary martial art. It was developed in the 1890s. Edward Barton Wright, who had the most wonderful moustache, he'd studied jiu-jitsu and judo in Japan in his 20s. And he sort of created this mash-up called Bartitsu, which he named after himself. And he taught it in his own dojo on Shaftesbury Avenue.
5:56Coco Khan:What's a dojo?
5:57Dr Naomi Paxton:So a sort of a space for learning martial arts. Ah, yes. And he trained both women and men. And Edith Garrod and William Garrod then go on to open their own dojo. near Golden Square, which is near where we are here in central London, near Oxford Circus, and go on to teach and train people in Japanese jiu-jitsu.
6:13Coco Khan:By 1906, she was demonstrating jiu-jitsu in theatres and music halls with what was described in a sports newspaper called Football Chat as a troupe of lady wrestlers. Fantastic. Naomi, was this sort of public performance popular in Britain at the time?
6:31Dr Naomi Paxton:Yeah, absolutely. So wrestlers, particularly in bodybuilders, musical demonstrations, a bit like, you know, can you come on and best this person or that person? And women are able to demonstrate physical prowess, certainly on musical and theatre stages in this period.
6:43Coco Khan:We've got some extraordinary photographs of Edith and her husband, William, their shared passion jiu-jitsu, demonstrating. Coco, can you tell me what you see here? I mean, it is an incredible artefact, and I really would urge people to go online and find these pictures. So it's a series of photos that is illustrating a martial arts throw. I just have to read the caption at the top that says, if you want to earn some time, throw a policeman. The jujitsu suffragette shows how a policeman may be tackled. It's so funny, you know, quite often when I think about contemporary protests, which, you know, we cover quite a lot on our podcast.
7:21Coco Khan:The idea that people are annoying, I think, is part of the process of protest. Can you imagine if you had a sign like that now? if you want to earn some time, throw a policeman. Oh, my God, you'd be in so much trouble. But nonetheless, here we have this kind of storyboard showing a woman in such an elegant, long coat. I think there's a petticoat under there, a big hat. Yeah, bringing this man. Well, it's her husband dressed as a policeman, I think, isn't it? Yes, her husband dressed, yes. For the demo. Yes, he's got some sort of hand grip that brings him down onto his back and then there's another sort of leg movement that brings them both to the floor.
7:57Coco Khan:I mean, it looks somewhere between WWF.
8:01Dr Naomi Paxton:It's incredible. It's incredible. This is a demonstration that Edith and her husband would do at suffrage exhibitions. For example, there's one in May 1909 at an ice skating rink in Knightsbridge. It's this huge exhibition and there's plays and there's music and there's bandstands and there's jujitsu demonstrations. There's immersive prison cells. There's punch and jujitsu. There's all kinds of stuff. There's actually an amazing description of this from the Evening Post in 1909. So there's three rounds. So she's remember, she's five foot, even in a big hat. and the policeman is six foot. And so round one, the little woman defies the policeman who towers above her.
8:32Dr Naomi Paxton:He extends his right arm cautiously. She seizes it quickly, pulls him a little forward, appears to tap him above the ankle with her foot and he falls with a thud, roars of applause amid the dust. Then there's round two. Then round three, I'm going to skip to round three. Round three, the policeman, looking shaken, makes an ill-considered rush. The little woman apparently mixes herself up in his feet. Then she bends down. With the impetus of his run, the policeman seems to sail into the air he shoots over the little woman's shoulder and comes down with a nerve-wracking crash. As he lies winded, she stands on his back and dons his helmet.
9:05Dr Naomi Paxton:Clouds of dust, intense enthusiasm, the biggest policeman in London wouldn't get away now, shouts the suffragette, still standing on her prostrate foe. The applause was redoubled. The little woman was Mrs Garrett, the jiu-jitsu suffragette. She took three curtain calls. Oh, my goodness. That's great.
9:18Coco Khan:And the crowd went wild, I feel, you know. So does that mean that she was, you know, fundamentally this is a protest movement where they're trying to agitate. They are taking down police officers, which is quite edgy. But that report almost makes it seem like she was quite beloved, you know, rapturous applause.
9:37Dr Naomi Paxton:Oh, absolutely beloved, yes. Right. Part of the sort of the large hat, elegant costume thing in terms of demonstration is also part of how we're selling women's bodies and women's capabilities. It's quite hard to disapprove of exhibitions of bloodless, elegant violence, even if you really disapprove of suffragettes. To see a five-foot woman, four-foot-eleven woman, subduing a policeman without a hair, you know, coming out of place is an extraordinary demonstration, and Edith was very aware of the power of that as well.
10:04Coco Khan:Let's listen to Edith's granddaughters, Sybil Evans and Jenny Cooper, discussing their grandmother. They were interviewed by the Avengers star Anna Blackman for The One Show in 2014.
10:17Dr Naomi Paxton:She could be quite domineering, but then... She was a bossy bit. Oh, yes, very bossy.
10:24Coco Khan:We knew she was a suffragette. We knew she threw people over her, well, policemen, over her shoulder. Yes. But other than that, she was just Nana. Did she ever practise anything on you? She held my hand really tight and I had to pull her thumb back to get her hand off of me. You didn't practise on your husband? No. Coco, do you think she enjoyed dominating men? I mean, who wouldn't, Matthew? Who wouldn't? Would you? I mean, you know, I'm team equality rather than, you know, reverse dominance. But I'd like a few skills. I think it would be, you know, good for one's self-defense. And occasionally if one of my future children is difficult, you know, there's always a wrist lock.
11:09Coco Khan:I'm just saying I'm joking. I am joking. Please let's be let's be clear about that. But I mean, look, clearly it was it was something that defied people's preconceived notions of this small woman. And I think that there's a power to that because obviously the message is that preconceived notions of women are roundly wrong, that they are eminently capable. That's really powerful. But just on a her level, I mean, it's just so thrilling, isn't it? Have either of you ever tried jujitsu, learned the martial arts? I mean, is there such a thing as kokitsu, for instance? I do like the idea of starting my own martial arts.
11:46Coco Khan:I mean, I have not done it. Actually, I did think to myself that there is something unique that martial arts can provide or really any kind of physical, you call it physical culture that is missing really to a lot of people, myself included. I didn't play a team sport. I didn't learn a martial art. I think, you know, it's a shame because it can bring out resilience, endurance. It sort of tells you to calm the tempers, you know, not to allow your worst impulses to dominate you. These are all great things for life, you know, lessons for life. And actually, you know, particularly seeing some of the stuff that young men are consuming online.
12:24Coco Khan:Maybe jujitsu is what we all need to be mandating. How about neomitsu?
12:32Dr Naomi Paxton:I love that. I did learn a bit of suffragetsu or jujitsu suffrage for the Pankhurst Centre. But it was interesting. I learned it, obviously, in rehearsal clothes, you know, just relaxed slacks and loose tops. But then I performed it in the sort of costume that we see pictures of Edith Garrod in when she's performing. So in a skirt and a tight jacket and a massive hat. And it's quite hard.
12:51Coco Khan:Does that mean that the suffragette probably would have been less effective than if they were in more comfortable clothes? I'm wondering to what extent the suffragette was about the vision of a woman throwing a police officer over their shoulder or actually genuinely about the martial art?
Read the full transcript
13:09Dr Naomi Paxton:Both. It's very definitely about the martial arts. So Edith Garrett is teaching self-defence classes to suffrage campaigners twice weekly, Tuesdays and Thursdays in her dojo. And women are using it. So, for example, we know that there's a big demonstration called Black Friday in 1910, where uniformed and ununiformed police officers attack women who are peacefully protesting. And there's a lot of physical violence there. We know that women were sort of wearing things under their clothes to protect themselves. We also know that women in the police service in Wobbewon were learning jujitsu. So it was definitely useful.
13:41Dr Naomi Paxton:It was useful as self-defence, particularly around street harassment or harassment on public transport. Oh, my goodness. Wow. Talk about lessons for our time. Totally. And Garrod is talking about it in terms of not only safety on the streets from strangers, but also safety in the home. She collaborates on a play in 1911, which is about domestic violence. And in the play, a working class woman goes to the Garrod's dojo and asks for help and doesn't have money to pay for lessons. But they give her free lessons in order that she can defend herself where her husband comes home drunk and beats her.
14:09Coco Khan:You've got a play script demonstrating something like that. Let's hear it.
14:13Dr Naomi Paxton:I do. So I'm very excited. I found this play, What Every Woman Ought to Know. I found it in the British Library in the Lord Chamberlain's Plays Collection because, of course, theatre was subject to censorship at this time. So any script had to be sent for approval. And we knew about this play, but we didn't find the script. And when I found it, I was ridiculously excited. So set in the kitchen of a couple of slum house. and the scene opens with the wife Liz demonstrating her jiu-jitsu skills by pinning her friend to the floor and she tells her friend that she's been learning for six months from the wife of Professor Garrod in Oxford Circus after reading a flyer encouraging women at risk of domestic violence to learn jiu-jitsu for self-defence and Liz reveals to Mrs Garrod that she's been beaten by her husband for six years and so she's offered classes free of charge and she's learned enough to feel confident to fight back and defend herself when under attack.
15:03Dr Naomi Paxton:It is written in a Cockney dialect because it is a musing play. So I'm not going to get myself cancelled by attempting to recreate. I'm from East London. Oh, OK. You can do it. Give me the hand, I can do it. Give me the line, go on.
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15:50Coco Khan:I should say that my two guests gathered round the same mic. It's actually written in the dialect. Yeah. I've bitten off more than I can chew here, but let's go. We've started, so we're finished. Did I tell him about Bill? Yes, and he says, our bill's being drunk. It'll make it all the easier for me. We'll see who gets the knocking about this time. Well then, he says, as Awi admires me grit and offers to teach me, free a charge. That were night on six months ago, and now he says I'm ready to tackle anything that attacks me, man or beast. So I'm going to begin with the beast, not with the knife.
16:23Coco Khan:Oh no, no bloodshed. Very good, yes. Do you think though, Coco, that there's a danger that we slightly romanticise the suffragettes? Yeah, I think so. No, I think so. And I think, of course, we idolise them because of what they did. You know, women needed the vote. It's fantastic. But our lack of knowledge in terms of the bits where it got a bit messy, in terms of some of the violence, in terms of some of the setbacks, I think we do ourselves a disservice not knowing that because it can help us understand what's appropriate and not appropriate for our current times. Is it rude to ask whether she perhaps rather liked the public attention, whether she was a bit of an exhibitionist?
17:02Coco Khan:I don't necessarily think that even if that's the case that that's necessarily bad I mean you know she used it for good at the end of the day and I think you know certainly one of my main takeaways from this conversation is about the power of the spectacle and particularly now in our age of social media that grows ever pressing we've just had the Oscars you know certain actors would go up and say a political message there's lots of outcry to that you know let's separate art and politics it's never been the case it's always been the way that there's been this cross-pollination and that's worked well And I think if you if Edith likes a bit of glamour, that's OK.
17:34Coco Khan:You know, she's using it for good causes. And I think that's that's great.
17:37Dr Naomi Paxton:I would have one beef with you, Matthew, about the use of exhibitionist. Because I would say in a way that's sort of a bit pejorative for Edith in that she was a professional performer. She was in silent films as a professional performer. She was part of putting this play together. She was the professional demonstrator. And I see her coming up again and again at meetings for the Actresses Franchise League. She's part of demonstrations there with all sorts of brilliant performers. So I think she identifies as a demonstrator and a performer and a teacher rather than just somebody who's good at it.
18:06Dr Naomi Paxton:And then they wheel her out every so often. This is her job is demonstrating this work.
18:10Coco Khan:And I suppose some of it, Coco, also was just giving women the self-confidence not to feel vulnerable because they knew they could, even if they didn't have to. Absolutely. The agency that they would have felt being able to defend themselves, as you say, at home, but also out on the street. You know, I say that myself as a woman who I would be lying if I hadn't thought what would it be like to, you know, throw this heckler, this catcaller over my shoulder. You know, I'm sure we all fantasise about it. I mean, this is just a sidebar, but the emergence of the sort of woman superhero in films, I think it speaks to a lot of young women that they can kick butt quite like the men.
18:50Coco Khan:And so actually, but these are not fantasies, you know, these are real women that learnt something. You're listening to The Great Life of Edith Garrard, nominated by Coco Khan. Helping us out too is Dr Naomi Paxton. It's quite important at this point to distinguish between the suffragettes and the suffragists. Can you do that in a nutshell for us?
19:11Dr Naomi Paxton:So pretty much, well, everyone who was fighting for the vote was a suffragist. And the suffrage movement started in the 1860s, took them just over half a century to get votes for women on the same terms as men. Suffragette was a term coined by the Daily Mail. It's supposed to be a diminutive, to sort of take the mickey out of the militant women.
19:27Coco Khan:Yes, like cigarette.
19:28Dr Naomi Paxton:Exactly. Or, yes, I've had magicienne, for example, described in the past. So the WSPU and the Women's Freedom League, the militant society is full of energy. and with an eye to branding and marketing, took that derogatory term and decided to use it. But nowadays we've come to sort of distinguish them as suffragettes as militant and suffragists as non-militant.
19:49Coco Khan:Just for my own clarity, when you say militancy, what defines militancy?
19:54Dr Naomi Paxton:Now there's another programme I'm waiting for. I suppose it's around direct action. So that could be turning up to a demonstration. That could be smashing a window as a symbolic protest. Any kind of direct action. But militancy has come, I suppose, colloquially to imply active violence slash destruction.
20:13Coco Khan:We don't know much about Isis' own personal views, her ideology, her beliefs.
20:20Dr Naomi Paxton:Her engagement with the suffrage movement is interesting. I wish there were more interviews with her at the time. Because she doesn't, for example, take part in the 1911 census boycott, which is really interesting, which is something the militants start, which you would assume that she might be part of. But we find in the census form that her and her husband and her daughter Isabel are at home. for that. Now there can be many reasons why she doesn't partake in that but it's clear that jiu-jitsu and her teaching was the focus and suffrage came along and was absolutely part of that and gave her an outlet for what she was doing and gave more visibility to what she was doing but her focus, her priority seems to have absolutely been the teaching and sharing of jiu-jitsu.
20:54Dr Naomi Paxton:In terms of
20:55Coco Khan:the more controversial tactics of the suffragettes including the smashing of windows, the slashing up of paintings, would her bodyguard unit have anything to do with that. Tell me about this bodyguard movement. Well my understanding is that Edith led a unit which was this bodyguard unit and the women in that were there to protect, could be the Pankhurst but it could be any sort of high profile woman of the movement that might have been speaking that may have found themselves liable to be arrested or to get into any kind of physical intimidation. They were there to support. That was my understanding but perhaps I'm wrong.
21:34Coco Khan:Sort of SAS of the suffragette movement.
21:36Dr Naomi Paxton:It kind of particularly comes up around the cat and mouse bill in 1913. Tell us about that. Oh I will. So you've heard of suffragettes hunger striking for example. Yes. So initially when suffragettes hunger strike they're hunger striking to protest not being kept as political prisoners or kept in the same divisions as male political prisoners. The cat and mouse bill comes up in 1913 which is a rather unpleasant bill where women who are forcibly fed almost to the point of near death will be released, then they are allowed to recover and when they've recovered they'll be rearrested and the cycle will start again.
22:09Coco Khan:That's horrible, sort of playing with them as it does. Hence the cat and mouse.
22:12Dr Naomi Paxton:So there's a lot of protest about this and women who are out on licence who are at death's door and then released to get better obviously try and then evade, recapture and arrest. But the suffragette bodyguard were there to protect particularly women who are out on licence and to protect the militant leaders from attack.
22:28Coco Khan:And Edith, was she part of this bodyguard?
22:30Dr Naomi Paxton:She was training the bodyguard. Yes. I'm not aware that she was part of any of the actions of the bodyguard, but she was certainly training them. And that was in not just jiu-jitsu, but also using club, Indian club. She was the coach. Yeah, she was the coach. She had real experience with this. And for, you know, anybody to be physically at risk, not only those evading capture, but those who were protecting them is serious. And there were serious injuries. Women died and were injured from interactions with police.
22:56Coco Khan:I wonder, Coco, what other Edwardian women thought of all this. Life for a woman in Victorian and Edwardian times was really, well, not tough, but it was so circumscribed. No, absolutely. I mean, I remember this was some years ago now, but just looking at the legality of hitting your wife. And so a lot of these women would have experienced physical domination routine. And in that regard, when you think, oh God, how could a little woman go up against a big policeman with a big club, you sort of also think, well, perhaps they might feel they have nothing to lose. It can't get worse. They're going to get hit at home.
23:33Coco Khan:Might as well get hit here and fight for something you believe in, which is a very morbid thing to say, I know, but I wonder if it was true. I was very interested in hearing what you said, what you described there was quite bloody. So is it that she did not get her hands dirty,
23:46Dr Naomi Paxton:but those she trained did? I think it's about using your powers for good, isn't it? Using where you're best placed. She's clearly an excellent teacher and an excellent demonstrator. And where she's best placed is to be in her dojo, to be teaching people, to be offering classes, to be looking after her kids and doing the thing that she's most capable of doing. And so she's training then other women who want to become involved and defend WSPU leaders to do what they're doing. So it's interesting. Her role as an entertainer and as a demonstrator and as a teacher is something that completely carries her through.
24:17Dr Naomi Paxton:And she's already unusual in this period to be, as I said before, to be a wife and a mother and still to be working professionally.
24:23Coco Khan:I do just have one more question though. My top Trump's card talked about being a master of disguise. Did she have a wardrobe of moustaches?
24:33Dr Naomi Paxton:I would say as the person who wrote the Suffra Greats card. Oh, you wrote it! I did. I'm thrilled to find that. It actually wasn't Edith Garrod that was in the master of disguise. It was Lillian Lenton who was the master of disguise. Oh, I'm so sorry. But I think Edith Garrod, I'm sure, I mean, having seen Edward Barton Wright's ginormous moustache, she would have been mad not to have attempted to use that in Jiu-Jitsu defence somewhere.
24:50Coco Khan:Just because in my mind, I often think that potentially some of these women would have been trying to downplay their involvement if it was controversial, but it's a real giveaway when someone has loads of disguises, isn't it? You go to their home, you go, I didn't know you had a cane. Oh, that's a very large coat.
25:06Dr Naomi Paxton:There was somebody who kind of doubled for Mrs Pankhurst, who came out in an enormous hat with a veil on it in order that Mrs Pankhurst could slip out the back, for example, when police were waiting out the front. There was a woman who dressed up as a sort of serving boy and got into houses that way. There was a woman who dressed in men's clothes in order to get into a meeting where women were banned. So I'm sure some disguises were greatly elaborate, but some were just about subverting expectations.
25:31Coco Khan:As I understand it, Naomi, Edith didn't, and the suffragists didn't continue with violent demonstrations during the First World War.
25:41Dr Naomi Paxton:The campaign continued, but the demonstrations stopped. Yes, campaigning continued, not militancy, but active suffrage campaigning continued throughout the First War. And then in the 10 years after that, up to 1928, they carried on campaigning. So the suffragist campaign never stopped.
25:57Coco Khan:We've heard about what the suffragettes were doing, what they wanted to achieve. And in the end, they did achieve it. How did that happen, either of you?
26:06Dr Naomi Paxton:The passing of the Representation of the People Act in 1918 tripled the electorate from 7.7 million to 21.4 million. So from 28 % of the adult population in 1910 to 78 % of the adult population in 1919. So some women got the vote in 1918. Women over 30 who met the property qualifications got it, and so that's why they kept on fighting. So finally women got the vote on the same terms as men in 1928, which is the next centennial we were celebrating.
26:32Coco Khan:Edith's eldest son was killed in the First World War, I believe.
26:35Dr Naomi Paxton:Yes.
26:36Coco Khan:And in the Second World War she would apparently go out into the garden and shake her fist at the German bombers going overhead. By then she must have withdrawn from activism.
26:47Dr Naomi Paxton:We're not aware that she was still part of suffrage activism. As I say, the flashpoint of her press around that is kind of concentrated around the years before the First World War. She certainly is still teaching. And we know that she's advertising in newspapers as come to her dojo for jujitsu for self-defense for ladies and children against hooligans, for example, and ruffians on the street and offering demonstrations around domestic violence. So her wider activism in terms of women's space, visibility, agency, physical prowess is carrying on. But yes, I'm not aware that she's involved in suffrage demonstrations after the First World War.
27:23Coco Khan:Here is something remarkable. In 1965, on her 94th birthday, Edith performed a wristlock on a journalist during an interview for Woman magazine. Have you got the photograph? I mean, it's an amazing photo. She's beaming, positively beaming. the journalist looks like he's in real pain. Yes, yes. That is truly suffering for your art, for that journalist there. I'm not sure I'd be set on such an assignment. He's not comfortable, is he? He's not comfortable physically, but I feel also that morally he feels a little humiliated by the... Yeah, I mean, she is 94 years old. Yes, I know. And he is getting owned.
28:01So that is a tough day.
28:05Coco Khan:Edith Garrett died in 1971 at the age of 99. Coco has our discussion in any way changed the way you see her I mean all it's done is deepen my love of her and make me feel sad that we don't know more of her I mean what an incredible life not only just in terms of the cause a brilliant cause and a great thing to dedicate one's life to but you know I've always been partial for a bit of spectacle and she delivers it I genuinely hope if any of your listeners are commissioners I think this is going to be a hit, guys. Absolutely.
28:40Dr Naomi Paxton:Just think about it. Do you have some words from her that she wrote an article for Votes for Women in 1910? She was talking about jiu-jitsu and she said, in this art, all are equal, little or big, heavy or light, strong or weak. It is science and agility that win the victory. Is this not a forecast of the future? Science, quickness, vitality and brains are sure to equal to brute strength in politics as well as in fights.
29:03Coco Khan:My thanks to Naomi Paxton and to you, Coco Khan, for championing the great life of Edith Garrod. Goodbye.
From the publisher
Writer and podcaster Coco Khan nominates the little-known but formidable Edith Garrud, a woman who turned Edwardian expectations on their head. A pioneer of ‘Suffrajitsu’, she taught women Japanese martial arts so they could defend themselves from arrest. Joining Coco is Dr Naomi Paxton, who brings Edith Garrud to life as a woman who promoted her cause through public performance.
The programme was produced by Hannah Hufford.
