Jock Stein, first British football manager to win the European Cup

0:00It's a fine thing on Great Lives when a guest champions the life of someone famous in the same field as them. But I do like it when occasionally a guest looks beyond their own world. Imagine, say, a classical composer picking a football manager, which is exactly what we have this time. Today's guest is a classical composer and a conductor whose work takes him all over the world, but it's his Scottish upbringing that has influenced his choice today. Sir James Macmillan, not an expert in the field of music, I asked a friend in Radio 3 and he said, Oh, yes. Sir James, he said, is one of the best living British composers.

0:42So, Sir James, tell us whom you've picked and why. Jock Steen, Scottish football manager of the first British team to win the European Cup in 1967 when I was a little boy. The team was Celtic. It's a team that I and all my relatives and friends and neighbours supported back home in Ayrshire. Do you come from a similar background to him? I would say yes. The interesting thing about Jockstein, and many of those men were that they're from mining stock. In fact, Jockstein was a coal miner before he started playing football. And there are a number of his colleagues who were equally successful. Matt Busby, for example, from similar stock.

1:24Bill Shankly is a fellow airshipman from not very far away. And we all come from that community where most of the men were coal miners. Interesting. Many of whom loved things outside their own experience. My grandfather, for example, was a coal miner who loved music, and that was the key for me. As soon as I came along, he encouraged me. But I saw in my grandfather and my father, and in all the men I knew, certain similarities and characteristics that I saw in Jockstein. He was known as the big fella. Do you think he gets the credit he deserves? Well, that's quite an interesting and quite loaded question because there are some who still complain that he was never knighted.

2:06As I say, the Celtic were the first British, not just the first British team, but the first Northern European team to win the European Cup. It had been dominated by Italians and Spaniards up until that point. And he was never knighted. And the following year, the Cup was won by Manchester United, managed by Matt Busby, who was knighted. There's no conspiracy theory there because Matt Busway was a Scot as well from mining stock. Yes. And so there must have been something else and I'm sure that we could probe what something else might be. Here's the moment his team brought the Cup back to Glasgow at the end of May 1967.

2:47And that's the sound that's Celtic tonight here at Parkhead in Glasgow. The team have just emerged from the tunnel waiting there. dark green blazers and they are holding up the outsized European clock now. It's glinting in the evening sunlight here which is coming over from the west over from the city of Glasgow itself which they have just driven through from Glasgow Airport at Albert's Inch. A wonderful, wonderful display last night Jock and a wonderful reception tonight. Tremendous, oh yes. Made it all worthwhile. How did it feel in Lisbon as the minutes were ticking by? Home here in Scotland, the tension was fantastic.

3:28Well, anxiousness always creeps into teams playing, but I think the games, the game was going on no anxiousness crept into our play, and the goal came at the right time and we went from there. How did it feel in Lisbon was the question there. How does it make you feel, James, hearing that recording? It's an amazing feeling that the hairs in the back of my neck are standing erect. It takes me right back to those moments I remember none of us expected Celtic to beat one of the great teams in the world, Inter Milan. And so the delight was expanded a hundredfold when they actually did win. And I remember a great outpouring of joy from all over Scotland, especially in the west of Scotland, when the realisation set in that Celtic had done it.

4:17You were about seven at the time? Just about seven. There were two big moments in May 1967 for me. One was I made my first communion and then a few days later Celtic won the European Cup. The first event was something that we all expected. The second was totally unexpected, but even more joyous perhaps. Also joining us to talk about Jock Steen is a man who knew him well and who reported on many of his managerial exploits, including Jock's time as manager of the Scottish team, Archie McPherson, down the line from Glasgow. Welcome to Great Lives. Are you there, Archie? Yes, I am, and listening to Jock's voice again, it does something to me as well, something creeping up the spine, a shiver, a shiver of affection, I think.

5:03What was he like as a man? Describe him for us. physically in every way. He was a big man. He was a restless, impatient man, which I think is a less pompous way of saying he was a visionary. And his word was holy writ. Not a single player was allowed to make any exception to the tactics that he laid out. If they did, then they would be blasted away. I mean, when we went to conferences, press conferences in those days, we were met by the likes of say the Rangers manager who was dressed like a bank manager you were there at a press conference as if you were trying to get a loan from them whereas Jock Steen was entirely different, he wore a tracksuit, that was the symbol of the change that took place in Scottish football, he was the first tracksuit manager and when he came with that famous black tracksuit of his, it was covered in mud as if to show what he was doing and telling the press, what were you doing?

6:09Because he was always very suspicious about the media in a sense. He was very hostile towards the BBC because he felt they were Rangers orientated. But I know only too well that when he came out of the cradle like any other boy, he wanted to do well in football. And curiously enough, paradoxically enough, his great idol at that time was the Glasgow Rangers' captain, George Young, a big, rangy centre-half, because Jock was brought up, as James would understand, in a community that was strongly Rangers. Tell us something, Archie, about that Rangers-Celtic thing. Well, probably you're better not to know about it, to be perfectly honest with you.

6:55It's a strange thing because it can be violent, it can be ugly, and it can, on the other hand, simply be an identity. You identify with a particular team, I suppose a particular way of life. I commentated on a game in which I had to admit that the riot after the game was much more entertaining for a commentator than the actual game itself. That is what can happen with a kind of lustrous feeling of hatred that is maintained between these two entities. You know, it is still there. It is still there, but in a different way because I think the geography of Scotland has changed and these entities, these little pockets, seem to have been diluted in that way.

7:46James Macmillan, lustrous feeling of hatred. Do you know what he means? I'm afraid I do. I have the scars to prove it as well. Yes, I know exactly what Archie is referring to. And as far as the 1967 Cutwin is concerned, I was a little Catholic boy in the west of Scotland. Celtic was the team that little boys like me supported. And friends of mine who were little Protestant boys living in the same street, they would support Rangers. Most of the time it could be civil and humorous, but as Archie has alluded to, it can be quite violent and deep historical anxieties at the heart of it, which is not just religious, but political as well, connected to the whole relationship that Britain has with Ireland.

8:32Do you think, both of you, Archie, James, that coal mining was not what Jock wanted for his life and that football was a means of escape? Well, yes, but you have to point out that when he was even earning a wage as a footballer with Albion Rovers in the town in Cope Bridge in North Lanarkshire, he was still working in the mines. I mean, he just wasn't earning enough for his family, which he was bringing up. And on the religious theme, at the age of 20, he married a Catholic girl, which didn't go too well in his particular community. but he got on with it and I think it was an indication too of the first sign that Jock was at least at that stage slightly above that hideous normality We've had hideous normality, lustrous hatred What about your own background James?

9:29You said you grew up with men like Jock Yes, very much so I'm from the Ayrshire Coalfields My grandfather also played football when he was a young man I wanted to play football My dream was to be a Celtic player when I was at that age. But these men had to find something else in their souls which made them come alive. And for Jockstein, it was to follow his dream into playing football and then managing football at the highest international level. For my grandfather, it was finding beauty in music. He played in colliery bands, as many of the miners did through the 1930s, 40s and 50s. He played the euphonium.

10:07He sang in his local church choir. a lot of those men and their wives and families sought out beauty that was not there when they were hacking coal deep underground. In 1951, he received a call that, I guess, changed his life. He'd been playing in Wales at Llanetli and Celtic called him up. Thanks to injuries, he found himself playing in the team. Here he is, talking later about this time. We had a wee run and we won the double, we won the league in the cup in 1953 and four, We won the Coronation Cup. At one time, we were a pretty good side, but we didn't stay together too long. I remember you playing then, Jock.

10:47I remember you as a big, strong, strapping, hard player. Is that how you recall your own days? I was fairly good in the air, nothing more. I was good in the air, and at that time, Celtic needed someone there. There were good players round about me. I wasn't a bad positional player, but I wasn't exceptional as a player, no. Just ordinary, very ordinary. Such modesty. You're listening to the great life of Jock Steen, first British manager to win the European Cup. Take us, Archie Macpherson, very quickly, from Jock the player to the manager. Celtic wasn't his first team as manager, was it? No, he went to Dunfermline.

11:27He was told in no uncertain manner that he wouldn't get on in Celtic any further because of his background. You said because of his background. What do you mean? Protestant. Yeah. As simple as that. As he told me in later life, they told him, you're not going to get on. So he went to Dunfermline, and of course he won the Cup against his old club Celtic, and then went to Hibernian, where he became a very wise manager in the way he handled players. He didn't go on any international managerial courses to find out how to win the European Cup. he found that strength and ability from deep within his own heart he was also very powerful with players I mean he had one famous run in with John Hughes who was a big strong powerful player who told me, John Hughes told me he was a bit unfair with him because on one occasion John Hughes in a training down at Sea Mill which is on the coast of the Clyde he injured himself and he didn't tell the manager because he wanted to play in the final against Rangers.

12:35Well, Rangers that night scored a very famous goal. Kai Johansson scored the only goal of the game to win the Cup and John Hughes was supposed to be covering Kai Johansson and John Hughes was finished with Steen from that night on. He had made a mistake and he was really finished, as John admitted to me in later life. I'm aware some younger listeners, even me, not all that young, might not know what he looked like. Here he is, I have a photo here with the European Cup and perhaps James, you can describe what you see. Here's the photo. Yes, it's a very famous photo and it takes me right back to those wonderful days.

13:18He's not smiling. He did smile sometimes, I've seen him smile and there's a lovely smile breaks out in his face and apparently he was a great singer and could entertain at parties and after dinners and so on But that photograph takes me right back to those amazing days. We were actually given the day off school by the nuns who taught us because Celtic won the European Cup. That is how close-knit the whole thing was. Football, Celtic, Catholic parish, Catholic school. And nuns. And nuns. The nuns all sat and watched it, apparently, on their television and cheered like the rest of us. They won it by being entirely self-possessed in the best way.

14:01when they were about to go onto the field to play against this highly rated team who had introduced this Catanaccio method of if you defend, you win. And Bertie Olds started to sing, oh, it's a grand old team to play for. And that simple, almost parochial tune was made universal. And it gave them some sort of feeling of normality. That is, they were walking out onto a Scottish field, not a foreign field. And in that sense, led by a powerful man they called Caesar. It was called Caesar because he was a dominating figure, the captain Billy McNeil. And if you got that with inspirational players like Jinky Johnson, stalwart players like John Clark, who very sadly died recently.

14:57And Ronnie Simpson, the strange story of Ronnie Simpson in goal, because Ronnie Simpson was with Hibbs when Jock was the manager. He had an argument with Steen about money. Steen was furious with him. Well, Ronnie Simpson was transferred to Celtic, and Ronnie Simpson was watching the television one night and saw that Jock Steen was coming to Park Head as a Celtic manager. And he turned to his wife, Ronnie, and said, I think we'd better pack our bags, I'm not going to last very long there. Well, he lasted long enough to win a European Cup. Another fan of Celtic was Billy Connolly. Take a listen to him describing them.

15:38We were talking then about Stevie Chalmers, Tommy Gemmel, Jimmy Johnson. They were the result of Celtic's youth policy. And it was the talk of all the papers. They were all saying, what are Celtic doing? They were starting a boys club and bringing in very young kids and encouraging them to come to the park and feel part of the thing, which is now standard practice throughout football. Good side. Good football. A happy side. And they could take a lot of punishment, and there was no prima donnas. Nobody would lie around wailing on the ground. Now, who did you put that down to? I mean, apart from, you know, obviously, you've got to have good players to have a good team.

16:15But Jock was the manager then. It'd come up to a five, was it? Dunfermline. Dunfermline. And suddenly they were brilliant from nowhere. That's right. Celtic was doing an incredibly bad patch at the time. And then Jock came. And the day it was announced he was coming, Celtic won by all sorts of goals. I think they were playing Martin and they won about 7-0. I remember on the run up to the European Cup going to see them and they all ran onto the park. And their shorts were shorter than most people's. And they were very tanned, the boys. And they looked lethal. They looked like a machine that meant business.

16:49And I could imagine if you played for East Vyfe or something or Hearts at the time or any of them, and these people ran out, you were in a hiding. I mean, if you ran out in your big clumpy boots and your jersey with a buttoned collar and this mob came bouncing and boing, boing, boing, looking at you, you knew you were in a hiding. They'd better haircuts, you know. They just looked ace. Archie, when did you first really get to know Jock? I think towards the end of his career. about the last two or three years I began a tour of the country with him to go around Celtic clubs and interview him and then it expanded into not just Celtic clubs but any kind of social club that wanted to hear this man and so I sat with him on these long miles in his car driving like a madman I have to say and remember he had a terrible crash and was almost killed in the crash.

17:51Really? Oh, yes, he did, with his friend Tony Queen. Jock always took a car down to Manchester and Liverpool to see the games. He would travel down at night and travel back up the same night. And one occasion, they had this serious crash. And, you know, when I was in the car with him, it never altered him. He just drove it at great speed. and I remember flying with him to New Zealand and we were over the Pacific somewhere, I think above Honolulu or something like that when he was a Scotland manager and he suddenly woke up from a deep sleep and he gripped my shoulder and I thought, this is very odd and he said, you know, I've just been thinking about that car crash and you know what I saw?

18:42I think I was about to die and I saw a bunch of flowers and it was a flower box that my auntie used to have on the windowsill of her house. Is that what you see when you're about to die? I'm sitting beside Jock Steen in a plane listening to this. So that is when I got to know him on all these travels when he would give me material he would never have given me on a sit-down interview. Was Jock an easy man to work with, do you think, Archie? If you got on with him and agreed with him, yes. Mrs Thatcher would have said the same. He was, in the best professional sense, a dictator when it was necessary.

19:31But a delightful man, especially when he sang. I mean, James has alluded to his singing. I remember in New Zealand, when we got to New Zealand, there was a Maori choir practising outside for some sort of celebration and Jock was in the room singing and he was singing Frank Sanatra's My Way. And he finished the whole song. He was in the shower, came out drawing himself singing and the Maori choir applauded. Here's someone who knew him later in his career, Gordon Strachan, who played under him in the national side. He had a presence. when he walked into the room if you didn't know who he was you'd think he's somebody because he had that way about him and it was basic to tell you the truth and what you thought instead of having to mess about through agents this one that one psychologists this that and everything to tell the player that he's being left out he said to me he said to me I'd scored against Sweden in a World Cup tie and we were playing the return leg at Hamden and he put up their team and he went they brought this lad in here to man mark you wee man so I'm sitting there, chest goes out that's great, they've brought somebody to man mark me and he went but I've got to go throw something on them and I went brilliant, I remember playing left side he went we're leaving you out I went hi, good

20:57and all the team just turned their eyes on me we're leaving you out son I just went that's Jokstein I'll just have to go along with that aside from the laughs though Is that an indication, do you think, of his management style, James? I think so. All indications are that he was driven, single-minded, some might say ruthless and unsentimental, and it worked. Jogstein became Scotland manager in October 1978 after what could be described as a patchy end to his Celtic career and also a brief stint at Leeds. How did he become manager, Archie? I believe you were in some way involved. Well, what happened is there was a journalist who knew everybody and was a buzzing bee that went into everybody's ear to get information and so on.

21:46And he phoned me one night and said, the big man wants to talk to you. And I said, well, where is he? He said, I think he's got the Leeds team at some training camp, but here's the number, give him a ring. So I rang his number and I could hear in the background and the racing, you could hear the commentator racing from Ascot or someplace. And he said to me, what are you doing tonight? Are you on any of the national programmes? I said, yeah. He said, could you get on a camera? And I said, yeah. He said, why don't you say Jockstein would be interested in the Scotland job? You know the words. You've got the words.

22:33You could do it that way. Well, I was on like a flash to London. Harry Carpenter was introducing the programme and he put me on right at the top of the programme. And I said, the SFA only need to lift the phone to Jockstein and they've got the new manager, something like that. The following morning, I'm in bed and I'm listening to the morning programme and now we've got Jockstein on the other end of the line. Mr.stein, last night Archie McPherson said that you would be the next Scotland manager if only they phoned you. Ah, you know what these people are like. You know, they can make things up and so on.

23:18I'm happy enough. And two weeks later, he was the Scotland manager. And how did Scotland get on at the World Cup in Spain in 1982, James? Well, it was another story of glory and defeat, winning well against New Zealand, losing gloriously against the favourites Brazil and then blowing it against the Soviet Union, who they should have beaten. And that was a great team. It was one of the best Scotland teams that there have been. In September 1985, Scotland went to Wales needing a draw to secure a play-off spot. Just before the end of the match, they scored a penalty and secured the draw. But either of you, what happened to Jock at this match and at that moment?

24:02Well, he unfortunately had an attack. He had been told by Dr Hillis, the medical advisor to the SFA, that he had to take certain pills. Now, these pills would cause you to urinate a lot. And he felt that he couldn't do his duties in such an important occasion if he had to keep going to the toilet all the time. So he missed out on these pills. Dr Hillis really thinks that that was the cause of his cataclysmic breakdown at Pitchside because his lungs filled with water. And Hillis put it to me bluntly. He said, Jock actually drowned that night. Now, I don't want to get into too many medical details, but that's what happened.

24:54He didn't take the medicine that he should have done. And I think that was devotion to duty. Here's one of your media colleagues, Archie, Hugh McIlwany of the Sunday Times, talking about Jock. In 1972, he was in intensive care for a dozen days because he had a heart problem. It was actually an irregular heartbeat and he was put on diuretic pills and so on. But then in 1975, of course, there was the hideous car crash. so in that context we thought oh this is savage and perhaps it's the end of the big man's career but nevertheless we felt he's going to get out of this and then I heard Mike England over in the corner of the room say he's still very very poorly and I knew what that meant was that Jock was dying James a few of our listeners may raise an eyebrow that a famous classical composer should choose the life of a Celtic football manager?

25:56Surprising, maybe, but not all that surprising, that you know and love other worlds outside your own world. But would somebody like Jock ever have chosen someone like you? That's a very good question. He had a very wide interest in current affairs. He was quite a political man, very interested in what was happening, but was a great supporter of the miners during the strikes of the 70s and 80s, for example. I have a political bent as well. Some of my works sometimes touch on the political. We might have come together through that. I have written a lot of music inspired by these men. You wrote one piece of music with lots of 11s in it.

26:39Can you explain that? That's right. That's the most recent football piece, just simply called 11, because of the 11 players. so I've made melodies out of 11 notes, chords out of it. But there's actually a little piano piece of mine called The 25th of May 1967, dedicated to the Lisbon Lions, as we refer to them, the team that won the European Cup that day, managed by Jock Steen. And maybe I could have talked to Jock about that. That was a piece of music inspired by that man. Well, thank you very much, folks down there, and thank you, James. It's delightful to meet you over the airwaves. It's great to meet you.

27:16The last time I saw you in person, Archie, was in Largs. You were being interviewed by Graham Spears, and I was in the audience that night. Thank you. Oh, right, right. Thank you, Archie, because as you can tell, I'm not a football follower, so I would have been a little bit lost without you and James. Thank you. Not at all. My thanks to James Macmillan and also to Archie Macpherson and to you for listening. Goodbye.