Tina Turner

0:05Today's Great Life is one of the best-selling recording artists of all time. She was both the first woman and the first black artist to appear on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine and then, 47 years later, she became the oldest person to appear on the cover of Vogue at the age of 73. Oh, what's love got to do, got to do with it? What's love but a second-hand emotion? And I'm sorry if you were starting to dance along there. that's all we're allowed. Just a snippet of what's love got to do with it from the 1984 album Private Dancer by, of course, Tina Turner. Nominating Tina Turner is the actress and author Rebecca Humphreys.

0:54Rebecca, what is it about Tina Turner? Well, there are plenty of people that inspire me with their talents or with the things they've achieved or the things they've overcome. And Tina Turner is all of those things. she's the sort of performer who when you watch her you feel it in your own body there's something about her that I think inherently appeals to women she's so sensual and she has this raw sexuality but it's strong it's not submissive and it's not manipulative you can't sexualise her in a way and I think women respond to it because it's so powerful The unique quality of her voice. I had never heard a voice like that before.

1:41Just extraordinary. She always speaks about how she endured and how she overcame as always knowing that she had something special and she always believes in herself. And to have a talent like that, that is so idiosyncratic that you've never heard, you know, artists at the time, especially black female artists were Diana Ross, you know, sophistication and elegance. And Tina has this fierceness to know that that's what you have and to own it, even though you've never heard anyone else like it. It's special. And when, Rebecca, in your life, did you come to notice and to appreciate her? It wasn't as though I sort of came across her.

2:23I just feel like she's always been there somewhere. In your home when you were young? In my home when I was young, I liked music, obviously. I'm not a sociopath. But I loved performers from a really, really young age. And I went out with a guy once who looked at my playlists and sort of went, you only listen to bangers. And I was like, of course. You know, that just totally made sense to me because I just love artists that command your attention. Was there a moment in your life when you absolutely locked on to her? Yeah, there was. I mean, something happened to me later on in my life in 2018 where I was involved in a relationship that only when I had left, in hindsight, did I realise was an emotionally abusive one.

3:11And something happens to you when you come out of a situation like that, and actually any difficult situation, which is that you start having conversations about it. At which point someone said, well, look at Tina Turner, you know, look at what she endured. And I thought, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. And then, of course, you start to research and suddenly there it was in front of me, this whole life that I had no idea about. Of course, I knew her music and her talent, but what she overcame and what she endured and she became Tina Turner after that. You know, I admired her before, but after I found that out, I adored her.

3:51This is the right point to bring in our expert and find out some more about our subject. Professor Maureen Mahon is a cultural anthropologist and the author of Black Diamond Queens, African-American Women in Rock and Roll. She's also a professor of music at New York University from where she joins us now. Did you listen to Tina Turner's music growing up? I did. I was a little kid when the song Proud Mary was a hit. And I remember being a little afraid of Tina Turner because of that kind of overwhelming energy and power that she had. The other thing that was different was she was OK with perspiring on stage.

4:34You could always see that she was working. So that was interesting to me, too. And then as a researcher, I think she's completely fascinating. She had a really tough start. She didn't even start life as Tina Turner. Give us some background, Maureen, some facts. Sure. Well, she was born Anna May Bullock. She grew up in a town called Nutbush in western Tennessee. And she was about three years old when her parents basically left her behind with relatives to go seek work. and one of the things she talked about throughout her life was the fact that she really never felt love from her parents, especially from her mother.

5:17They were black in the South where there was tremendous hardship for black people, segregation, all kinds of restrictions. So she did have a difficult start. Maureen, she moved out of Nutbush. When was that? When she was about 16 years old, she finally moved to join her mother and her older sister, Aline, in St. Louis, Missouri, which is a Midwestern city. And her sister was really into the nightlife in St. Louis. And the biggest, most popular band in the city at this time was Ike Turner's band, The Kings of Rhythm. So Aline took her little sister to see them. And she was already interested in singing.

6:01And she, you know, thinking of her as a dreamer, she started dreaming about singing with this band. And it happened. It did happen. She said she followed the band around until they let her sing. One night, the drummer put the mic in front of her and she started singing. And they were really surprised to hear this voice coming out of this little girl. So over time, I started including her in the show. So she had that big voice, even from being very young. Yeah, she said she had that big voice because when she was growing up in Nutbush, her family didn't have a telephone. So she had to learn to shout to be able to get the attention of her relatives across the way.

6:46So she always had that vocal power. I know how that feels. Having to shout to get attention. Yeah, right. It's well documented that Ike was controlling and abusive. We're not going to go into the horrific things he'd do, But tell us how their relationship developed, Maureen. Well, when she first started singing with the band, she and I became good friends. And they actually both described their relationship as being like siblings. They were like brother and sister. They felt really close, very connected because of the music. She could sing the ideas that Ike had in his head. And I think he recognized her talent.

7:28In the 1950s, Ike Turner worked as a talent scout for Modern Records, which was one of the independent records recording black music. He said too, didn't he, that she was a star. And she always said about Ike Turner that he was a musician that wanted to be a star. But he didn't have charisma. And he knew he didn't have it. He was always working with other singers because he knew he couldn't be the front man. But she could. But she could. The other thing that's kind of interesting is that in the 1950s, there was sort of a bias against women being the lead singer. So he was a little bit reluctant to have her in the band because he didn't think the audience would really like having a woman up on stage.

8:09And this was because the audience for the Kings of Rhythm was primarily women. But as it turned out, the women liked Tina, or Little Anne, as she was known at that time. How did she feel about Ike, Maureen? Was she attracted to him? She was not attracted to him. She was attracted to the music. When she describes that first night that she sees him on stage, she says the music almost put her into a trance, but she couldn't understand why women were so attracted to Ike. She said he was so ugly. because over time things just sort of, things happen as they do and they got together sexually. But also things were sort of moving toward this first single, A Fool in Love, and he doesn't want her to leave him.

9:01He had people leave him before, right? Yeah, he had, people call the first rock and roll record a song called Rocket 88, which was released in 1951. And that was a song he wrote. It was his band, but it wasn't credited to Ike Turner. It was credited to the singer, Jackie Brunston, and that always bothered him. And he knew a singer could just up and leave. So he came up with the idea of changing the name Anna Mae Bullock to Tina Turner. They were not married, but that linked the two of them. And then, you know, she can leave me. Little Ann can leave me. and I'll just hire another woman to be Tina Turner.

9:43Yeah, I find that weird. There's something quite unsettling about it. Obviously, it was good advice to change her name. Anna May Bullock isn't a very good name. You can't see it going down in the history books quite the same way. Not the same way. But for a man that you're with, sort of to rename you with a name that he wants for you and what he's sort of trying to patent for himself so that he could use it with somebody. There's something awful about that. It's so controlling. It's the first act of pure control. Yes, it's very controlling. It was not so unusual for the relationships that male producers had with the female artists they were working with, unfortunately.

10:28Years later, one of the things that Tina bonded with Cher over was the fact that they had both been in these working relationships with their husbands and both of their husbands were extremely controlling. How long did this go on? For about 16 years. So A Fool in Love came out in 1960 and Tina Turner left Ike Turner in 1976. How did she cope and why did she stay? The eternal question. Yes, yes. Right. Yes, you must have known that was going. I anticipated it. There are so many answers to the question why someone would stay in an abusive relationship, whether that's physical abuse or emotional abuse.

11:10Tina was under his control financially, completely. She had four children to raise. But there's also an element to it that is more emotional and less material than that. And it has to do with Tina would speak about how, you know, he would beat her and she would lie on the bed feeling sorry for him. that speaks to the extreme vulnerability of the people that abuse but also these sort of inherent qualities in women that we're patted on the head for and that we're constantly affirmed as young women you're a good girl for being empathetic compassionate for wanting to help we're raised to want to help there are so many snippets of her in interviews where she speaks about him compassionately.

11:58She's completely frank about the things that happened. But at the same time, there is a part of her that has this, she's a nurturing soul. And I think that that had to come into play somewhere along the line because of this extraordinary thing she said about pitying him. I'm listening to you here as a man. I can't imagine how you could lie there being beaten and feeling sorry for the person that was beating you. Now, women listening to this programme, will they say oh yes we can well i mean i can't speak for all women but it's something that i understand yeah and i suppose that has to do with the patriarchy and conditioning and the way that women are raised we are really bred to care but also to have something like this happen to you and to still be able to show compassion.

12:49It sounds weak, but it's strong. It shows incredible robustness of spirit. It's so inspiring. It's so admirable in so many ways. Maureen, there was a bit of a turning point in her life when Phil Spector approached her to record River Deep Mountain High. Tell us about that. So in 1966, Phil Spector was known as the top producer. So Phil Spector went to Ike Turner and said, I want to record with Tina. I want you to stay out of the studio. It's just going to be Tina and me working together. And Ike agreed to that. There was some money exchanged. And for her, it was a really important experience because it was the first time she had worked with someone other than Ike Turner.

13:43And she saw that there were other possibilities. How did the song do? And what happened to her after that? It didn't do well at all on the charts. It was a dud. No one can say exactly why, but Ike and Tina felt that it was too black for pop radio, and it was too pop for black radio. And at that time, the radio was very segmented. So there just wasn't a space for a song like this. It was a big hit over here, right? Exactly. In England, you had the Rolling Stones, the Animals, the Yardbirds, who are all into rhythm and blues. And then this song, it had the sound of the mix of pop and rock. I remember it so clearly.

14:33It's unthinkable that it was a flop. Oh, well, there are a lot of problems in the U.S. maybe not maybe not so unthinkable but in England it just resonated and so the Rolling Stones who are already fans of Ike and Tina Turner invited the group to come to England and tour with them in the fall of 1966 and so that was the other reason this song is so important because this was the first opportunity they had to leave the country. It said Rebecca that she influenced Mick Jagger's dancing. That's right, I was just about to say they stayed pals for the remainder of her life. You can see it, right? You can see the two of them side by side.

15:13They sang together at Live Aid. And his dancing was quite feminine in some ways too. And hers masculine. Yes, yes. Right? So they've got this kind of amazing symbiosis when they're on stage together. Let's listen to another little clip. This from an interview with Terry Wogan. I came here in 1966. It was the first time. Rivers Deep Mounds High was a huge success in London. And I was thrilled. England was, London actually, England was leading in fashion, the mini dresses. There was an energy here that brought something out in me that excited me. And I look forward to coming back each time. And then after that, my career started here, working with most musicians here.

15:54It just became home. Are you going to settle here? Is this, or will America always be home for you? No, this is it. I've lived long enough to know when I found my place, and traveling here since 1966 and now finally getting a place here, I basically have decided to live on this side for the next half of my life.

16:15Well, obviously, they don't want you here. Just to go back to the question of why she stayed with Ike, she stayed with him because she had promised him she would stay with him. because he was always so concerned or worried that people were going to leave him. And she started to think, well, if I can help him get a hit record, because that's what he wants, then maybe I can leave. So she convinces Ike to let them start doing covers of rock songs. So they start covering The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, and they finally get a hit covering Credence Clearwater Revival's Proud Mary. And the thing that happens in the 1970s that's so important is that she discovers a spiritual practice that gives her strength from within.

17:09And she spoke, didn't she, in that clip just then about energy and about feeling the energy of a place. And she speaks in spiritual terms all the time. She started to chant and she started to develop this practice that this fire that was still inside of her, she started fanning it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it started getting bigger and bigger until she could turn around to him and say, don't talk to me like that. Don't hit me. And she speaks about the night that she left him. They're in Dallas, driving to the hotel, and he turned to her in the car and he hit her, and she hit him back. And she pointed it in his face and said, you're not going to do that to me anymore.

17:52and she said that, you know, she paid for it. She paid the price for it. She went into the hotel in the Hilton in Dallas, sat on the bed with him, stroked his hair until he fell asleep and then walked across the freeway. It's a miracle she didn't die. Quite. A miracle. Walked across the freeway in a white suit covered in blood to the hotel across the freeway and said, My name is Tina Turner. I have no money. I can't pay for a room. Please will you keep me safe? Do you think Ike knew that he was an abuser? Did he have any sense of what he was doing to Tina? Well, it was not unusual for men to abuse women at this time.

18:38You know, Tina described her parents' relationship, one that included a lot of physical fights. So that's what she grew up seeing. But women were thought of as men's property. you know that men could control and do with what they would you know I'm keeping her in line or I'm treating her the way she should be treated I mean it's hard to know it's not a mind I want to go inside of well but I think he didn't see that there was really something wrong with it because it was such a common thing to do I was just going to say that if that's how you grow up if those are the relationships that you see in front of you that's what love looks like to you and as such you normalize anything that happens to you as well and that's just what love is she walked away from ike with nothing penniless all she took was her name can either of you talk about the importance of that because he didn't want her to have the name did he no it's like maureen said in the beginning he patented that i mean she relinquished everything she didn't take a penny from any of their records, any of their successes, all she said was, I just want my name, because there was something shrewd in her that said, if I keep that, I have a chance.

19:53And she was right. How old was she at that point, Maureen? Yeah, she would have been in her late 30s, really past the age when you're supposed to be starting out as a pop star or even being a pop star. But because she was the one who quit the band, she was responsible for a lot of payments to venues where they had to cancel the shows. So she had to work. She didn't have a choice. She met Olivia Newton-John's manager. Is that right? Right. Roger Davies knew who Tina Turner was. And she talked to him about wanting what her dream was. She wanted to be able to fill stadiums the way the rock bands that she was basically friends with, like the Rolling Stones were able to do.

20:40And so she told him that she wanted to be like the first black woman rock star. And he said, OK, let's see what he got. And so he went to one of her performances at a hotel lounge in San Francisco. So that's the type of venue she was playing. She was not, you know, doing high level shows in big spaces. And David Bowie gave her a Bit of a plug too, didn't he? Yes. So Roger Davis was really struggling to get her a record deal. He was finally starting to put something together. And it just happened that David Bowie was meeting with record executives at that label. And he said, well, it's been great talking with you, but I've got to go.

21:24I'm going to a concert of my favorite singer. And they said, oh, who's that? And he said, Tina Turner. They say, you know, can we go with you? Because they want to keep hanging out with David Bowie. So they go to the show. This was in New York City at a club called The Ritz. And they realize, oh, she really is an amazing performer. And at the same time, Let's Stay Together was doing well on the charts in England. So those things kind of converged. And Roger Davies was able to get her a record deal. We talk about these people who were skeptical of Tina Turner's comeback. whenever I hear about them I think oh god just how stupid they must feel or they must have felt you know but just you know in their defense it would almost be unthinkable now for a woman in her late 40s to make a comeback in a totally different genre yeah you know she was on tv panel shows she was doing you know sort of the money gigs she was washed up essentially and for For her to have the audacity to want to come back in a completely new arena and fulfil her dream of being the Queen of Rock and Roll, the first black female artist, in a way, it is sort of laughable.

22:39You know, it wouldn't happen now, I don't think. But Maureen, she needed to dissociate herself from Ike, I imagine. Is this when she started talking about what he'd put her through? Yes, and it's even before they signed the record deal. It's in the early 80s. So she's starting to be seen on these programs that Rebecca is talking about, and she's doing talk shows. And everyone is asking her, you know, where is Ike? And Roger Davies encouraged her to just go public with what had happened so that she could move on. And then she could go ahead with her solo career. So she told her story, and she provided details about the level of abuse.

23:24This is 1981, so this is not a time when women are talking about domestic abuse and intimate partner violence. So she's really a trailblazer in opening up that conversation in the United States. And some people didn't like the fact that she was airing Dirty Laundry in public. But it's one of the many things that makes her such an inspiring figure. I completely agree. And that interview with People magazine and her autobiography, I, Tina, It changed the lives of so many women. She just created a conversation that wasn't there before. And for a singer to have that kind of lasting impact, as well as being the woman who has sold the most live tickets ever in the world, it takes so much bravery.

24:16She's so brave. It's a difficult question. I really don't know the answer to it. It was her abuser, Ike, that gave her her first opportunity and sort of discovered her and nurtured her. She might have made it big without him, but perhaps she would not have. How should we reconcile that thought with what we now know about his abuse? We have to be able to hold two ideas that are maybe contradictory. We have to be able to hold them at the same time. So one is Ike is instrumental in Tina Turner's start in her career. He taught her music. He taught her how to perform. He also taught her a lot about the business.

24:56And that's part of the reason she was able to do what she did when she was a solo artist, because she had seen how Ike ran their operations. So she always acknowledged that. And he behaved terribly toward her. He was an abuser. Those two things are both true. Would you have liked her, do you think, Maureen? Would you have liked to be her friend? Well, we always think so. I mean, I think the thing about her is she always seemed very likable, you know, low-key, but not, she didn't seem boring. She had, like, a sense of humor. She could be a little naughty, you know, in some of the things that she would say.

25:37She seems really cool. I don't know if she'd want to hang around with me. What about you, Rebecca? Would you like to hang out with her? Yeah, of course I would like to hang out with Tina Turner. Are you kidding? You're so right. She seems cool. She's naughty. She's, you know, she's self-effacing, but also she's fierce, you know. And I mean, imagine walking into the club with Tina Turner. Oh, forget it. She found love as well as success in the second half of her life. Was that a happy ending? Yes, I think it's one of the other reasons that we like the Tina Turner story. There's a villain, and our heroine is able to escape from the villain and have wonderful success.

26:20And then when she's touring with Private Dancer in the mid-1980s, she arrives at the airport, and there to meet her is this young man, Ervin Bach, who is a record executive at her European label. And for both of them, it's love at first sight. And he was 16 years younger. He's a white German. She's a black American. those differences fell away. They just had this really strong connection. They both talked about having this sort of electric spark. And it was the love that she had never had in her life that she found with Irvin Bach. So I think that that happy ending just puts a bow on her whole story.

27:07It is such a relief. We've done a number of famous musicians on this program over the years. they've almost always ended up either in suicide or in drink or in drugs and dying young. At last we have one with a happy ending. She talks about her legacy as being endurance. Yes. That's what she wants her legacy to be. And well, I mean, she achieved it and then some. My thanks to Professor Maureen Mann and to Rebecca Humphreys for nominating the inspiration that was Tina Turner. Goodbye.