Chandrika Tandon: Leading the Way in Education and the Arts

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0:49I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. The Remarkable People team and I, we're on a mission to make you remarkable. Our guest today is Chandrika Tanden. She is a business leader, humanitarian, and Grammy-nominated musician. Her mission is to elevate economic and emotional well-being through education and the arts. Chandrika has been recognized for her leadership in higher education. As the chair of the board of the NYU Tandon School of Engineering, she has overseen the school's steady climb in rankings, groundbreaking global research, and enhanced access for first-generation and female students.

1:35Yet, Chandrika is not focused solely on economic well-being. Through her soulful music compositions, she aims to nurture emotional health as well. Chandrika has produced several albums, performed in venues worldwide, and in 2019 was nominated for a Grammy Award. Her latest album is entitled Amu's Treasures and celebrates intergenerational love through a rich fusion of styles. With experience in leading firms such as McKinsey & Company, Chandrika has an impressive professional background, but it is her humanitarian spirit and creative passion that truly set her apart. Chandrika endeavors to lift up people and communities across the globe.

2:24I can't wait for you to meet her. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And now, here is the remarkable Chandrika Tanden.

2:40You were a partner at McKinsey, Wall Street, financial mogul, Grammy-nominated musician, NYU Business School named after you, and then your sister, CEO of Pepsi, and then you have this brilliant brother. I'm seeing a pattern here. So was it the environment or was it the DNA in your family? The waters of Chennai, Madras, India. Where can I buy some? I know. But we grew up with a grandfather and I was the oldest. And we were in a very small town, Guy, in Chennai, Madras, it's called now. And we had no internet. Our walls were very tiny and our world was very tiny. But the way the windows and doors were open to me was through books.

3:31So at the tender age of 10, I was reading Thackeray and I was reading the multiple plays of Shakespeare, 37 to be exact. I knew by memory about 200 poems from daffodils to elegy written in a country churchyard. So my world inside was very vast. From an ambition perspective, I was never going to be limited because however limited it was, it was the world of books. And the other side of it is my mother was always playing music in the house. And we only had two radio stations in Madras at that time. And those two radio stations started playing music at 5am or something like that, and they would finish at 11.

4:13And those two radio stations were on in different rooms all the time. So you didn't have a choice to pick, oh, let me listen to jazz right now. Tell me about your grandfather, because I catch this thread that your grandfather was very influential. Yes, we lived in his house. We lived with him. My mother was taking care of him because my father would be traveling all the time and my father was the main son of the family. So my day began with my grandfather and my evenings and night ended with my grandfather. He was 92 when he died and he was the most special person in my life. So he would work with us.

4:51He would study with us. He would learn any hobby that I got engaged with, whether it was chess or whether it was scrabble or whatever interests I had, he developed crossword puzzles. It was an incredible, loving figure to have in my life. And because my grandfather was a judge, he opened all kinds of doors to me that I never thought existed, that I could never have envisioned in my little town of Madras with this very cloistered life that I was living. But I saw the world. I saw Cornwall through the eyes of Thackeray and I saw England through the eyes of every British author. So that's what happened in my life.

5:50One thread of thought here is that anybody listening should understand how much they can influence their children and grandchildren by broadening their horizons, right? Right. The awareness is so raw and it's so big and so visceral in my consciousness, Guy, because what my grandfather did with me has stuck with me so many years later, consciously and unconsciously, and it's changed the course of my life. In a lot of ways, I've got grandchildren now, and I've been spending a lot of time with them whenever I can, but trying to use that time, very focused on sharing with them what it is that I can, whatever it is.

6:36In my case, it was songs. It's nostalgia through songs. It's messages through songs. That's one avenue I've chosen. But I think we all have so much intergenerational wisdom and love and nostalgia and memories and experiences to share, which are going to have ripple effects for generations. Your story is remarkable, going from Chennai to Citibank, to McKinsey, to New York, to Grammy, to philanthropy. Can you give us the gist of how that journey played out? In a very high level way, I was lucky enough to go on a hunger strike and be able to go to a great college and do a bachelor's degree in commerce or in business and then to really fight to go to business school, the top business school in India.

7:28And then the journey continued over the years. I had a very singular business career for a long time. I say singular because my mind was focused on business. Even though I love music, I loved a lot of other things, I would always be working. Maybe even part of my 40s. I never saw the light of day. I just worked hard. I worked really hard. But what I would do, Guy, because I love music so much, I'd be all over the world traveling for business. but at 10 o 'clock at night, I would finish my client work and I would try to go to a piano bar. Not try to, most nights I would go to wherever music was.

8:05So that's where I heard the great Brazilian musicians like Caetano Veloso or Gilberto Gilles or a lot of those great people when I was living in Brazil and in France and Australia, wherever in the world I was, I would seek out music, but business was my main focus. But that went on and about 20 some years ago, I had a, the best way to describe it is a crisis of spirit, because I had to ask myself the question, what am I trying to do? What is my point? What is enough? How much success? What is success? What do I want to keep doing? And I'm so lucky that I got to ask those questions, Guy, because that changed the trajectory of my life.

8:47That's when I really started to focus intentionally on this answer, which is my joy, my happiest moments had something to do with music. Always something to do with music. I loved my business world, but I really was me when I was doing my music. And it wasn't because I was trying to get anywhere. I wasn't trying to win awards. It wasn't what it was about. I just loved singing. I loved learning and I loved sharing the music with people. And the second thing I made a decision about is that I would also spend a life doing something which had purity of purpose, that I would spend time serving. Whatever in a small way could be a random act of kindness or just something which is bigger than myself.

9:37Because we get so wrapped up in thinking about, oh, me, me. So I was going to make a decision. I made a decision to step away from myself. And that's what began this incredible journey, Guy, where I went from a singular, single-dimensional business-focused person into really building the music side and really building the service side, which is how NYU came into the picture. And at that time, I found the dean of the business school and said to him, can I help in some way? I'm not looking for anything. I just want to help. And he said, oh, come on in. Please come in, become what they call it, executive in residence.

10:18Of course, I had a lot of years of business experience. And I started to teach classes. I started to work with the dean on different things for the school. And that's how my whole association with NYU began until we gave a major gift for the engineering school. And for the music side, this is what happened. But again, by accident. So it wasn't that I was setting out to be anything. My promise 22 years ago was I would live a very authentic life, a life which really focused on clarity on what happiness was to me and a life that I would share whatever I had with other people in whatever degree I can and that I wouldn't beat myself up.

11:03and this is an important part I want to touch on because until then so much of me was wearing this badge of I'm a perfectionist with great honor I was always going to do better I wasn't good enough and I wanted to do more and oh goodness did I not do enough of this I wasn't a good enough wife good enough mother good enough this good enough that I just started to drop all that I went from I'm a perfectionist to I am perfection at this moment. I just, but let me live intentionally. Let me live authentically. So that has become the mantra. Am I 100 % every day doing that? No, but I'm a lot more clear and intentional about it than I have ever been.

11:48And each year, each month, each day, it gets easier. It's much more unconscious. It was in 1999. That's 24 years ago. So that would be when I was, I'm 68 now, so going to be 69 soon. We're the same age. Oh, we are. Wonderful. Yeah. It was about 20, 24 years ago. And you said something in your answer that I need you to explain because I don't mean to make this into a joke, but when somebody from India says I went on a hunger strike, it has a lot more meaning than a random person. And you said you went on a hunger strike to get your education. Can you explain that? Because I don't think you meant it in the Gandhi sense.

12:37In my own little way, it was pretty Gambian because I did go without food for two full, it was two days, which was a lot for the first time I was 14 when I did it, because my mother wouldn't let me go to a college, which I wanted to go to to study business. Because the college was about an hour away and it was mostly men and she wasn't going to have any of that. Because she said, and this was the only college open for women to study business at that time. It was a top college. It was a very prestigious program. And I got in and she wouldn't let me. And I was determined that I was not going to be stopped.

13:16and so I did in fact stop eating. It was pretty Gandhian because she's a tough woman and I had never quite fought her before in such a profound way. What did grandpa say when this was happening? Grandpa just would look very sadly at me because I was the love of his life and he would basically go to my mother and say let her do whatever she wants but what my grandpa gave me the courage to do, which is the most wonderful thing that happened is he told me, why don't you ask your headmistress in school to help you? Because I was crying so much. And so I went to school because I was still in school at that time.

13:59I went to school and spoke to my headmistress, who was from the Franciscan missionaries of Mary, Sister Mary Nesson. And she was in a habit, in a white habit. And I'll tell you, guy, I've been in that school. I had been in that school from whatever, kindergarten or pre-kindergarten until 11th grade at that time. I had never seen her outside the school premises. For the first time in my life, she came to my little street wearing her white habit in a black car. She came in to meet my mother, which the whole street was standing outside to watch this nun walk in. And then she said, Mrs. Krishnamurti, your daughter will be fine.

14:39And you have to let her go. She was an Irish nun. And ultimately, I think that's how my mother relented. So the second time I went on a hunger strike, which is to go to business school, I was a pro at that. So my mom and I by now had our negotiating strategies worked out. She knew I wasn't going to give up. And I knew I was going to win. But this time, I straightaway went to my professor at the head of my school at college, where I just finished my business degree. And he came straightaway with a whole army of people to tell my mother she had to let me go to business school. But this time I had to leave home completely, which I understand how difficult it was for her to let her firstborn daughter, who was supposed to uphold the family honor.

15:28Here I was going off into a den of men in the first case. And then I was going to be away from home outside of her control the second time. And so I understand her angst. What was I going to do? How was I going to behave? Was I going to be respectable when I came back? I almost fell off the chair there. I know. But now I get it. But at that time, I was single-minded in my pursuit. I was going to business school. Plus, the thing I'm going to tell you, Guy, is an uncle of mine, the reason I even applied to business school was an uncle of mine. And I told him I'm going to apply to this business school.

16:12It was a lark because my professor told me I should apply. He said, oh, you'll never get in. It's like a Nobel Prize. You're just a three-year degree because most people who get in are much more experienced. You're never going to get in. that time I was going to get in or at least I was going to try hard and since I got in there was no way my mom or anyone was going to stop me now so it was like a wonderful fight and I really I must say even though I talk about this I really honor the fact that my mother who could have hunger strike or no hunger strike she could have still put her foot down and said no and I wouldn't have done it.

16:50I really have to hand it to her that she let me go finally. Is she still alive? 92 and in great health and very lucid and will now tell you that she was the greatest proponent of my doing all these things. Is she in Chennai? She's in New York, right nearby. Maybe I should interview her.

17:19She will tell you that she's so proud of everything we have done now. The entire arc of your life could have changed if she went on a hunger strike and said, if you went to these schools, I'm not going to eat. It was something like that. Both of us were, and our fights were epic. My mother and my fights were epic because see, my sister had it easy because she was a year behind. So there were no fights in her case. I had already done all the fighting to go to business school, to go to college. And she followed me to the exact same college without nary a protest. And business school, forget it. As I proudly think to myself, this is the path of whoever tries to pioneer something that's off the beaten track.

18:01Dare I ask, what are your family reunions like? Is Indra bringing cases of Pepsi and you're bringing your musical instruments and your brother and it must be a hell of a reunion. Music was always part of how we all interacted with each other. India would have a lot of power cuts and load shedding when the whole house would be plunged into darkness. So there wasn't anything else you could do. So our family would get together and sing. So we would all sing songs together. And the second thing we would do is make jokes. And we had a lot of uncles and aunts. My mother is one of a big family. My father's one of a big family and everybody would be just sitting there telling jokes, just happy family jokes.

18:46So I'd say most of our family reunions are around a lot of jokes and now our children are all into music and so on. So I just think music and jokes are always part of how we interact. Though I would say as life has gotten a lot busier, Guy, it's that much harder to find time for real family reunions all the time. because we've all gone in different directions. And interestingly enough, all of us came independent of each other. We didn't bring, this wasn't a chain migration here. Each of us came on independent paths for independent accomplishments or independent pursuits rather, we came in for.

19:26I came to McKinsey. My sister came here to do a business degree. My brother came here to go to Yale for his undergraduate. So all of us came completely on our own paths. Not exactly like all moving to Florida. No, we love Florida for certain parts of the winter, but I came into New York City in 1979, and I literally love the city so much. I've been here forever, and wherever I go, and I go to many places because most of my work has been outside and all over the world, New York is home to me. This is the longest I've lived anywhere. And I love the city. I'm very involved in different parts of the city, the universities, the cultural events.

20:10And the wonderful thing here, Guy, is that New York City is many countries in one. We talk of melting pots, but there are so many epicenters because whatever your interests are, you can find your epicenter. If you like music, you can find it. If you like Brazilian music, some of the best Brazilian singers I've heard are in New York. In fact, Astrid Gilberto would be here and I would book tickets like three nights in a row she was performing. And the same thing when you had French singers or Stan Getz or any great person, Joan Baez, I've heard all of them in New York. The greatest Indian singers, in fact, in the early years, many of them would come and stay with me because, you know, you have greater access to the cultural scene.

20:54So I just feel blessed and privileged to be here and to be able to partake of the city. And the other thing, being part of a university in whatever way allows me to connect with the research, the students, the young thoughts, the brilliant minds in areas I'm not that familiar with. So it's been like a continuous education over the last 20 years. I bet that people listening to this are wondering, how do I know when it's time to make a big career shift? And in particular, how do I know when it's a false flag, like when I should not shift and I should stick it out? because kind of two conflicting bodies of thought, right?

21:40That you stick it out and you grit it out and you gut it out. And the other is to make these transitions like you did. So how do you know when the time is right? This is a really great question, Guy. So I don't think it's about the time. I think it's about having the time to reflect on what it is that drives your happiness and your passion. If you're someone who loves to connect with people through podcasts, it doesn't matter what the age is. You owe it to yourself to find the time to do that, whatever your other job may or may not be. Over a period of time, perhaps this will transition into a full job.

22:25Maybe it won't, but you're not doing this because you want another job because you want to transition. I went to music because I felt my soul would collapse, my whole being would shrink. And it was shrinking without it having a center space in my life. It wasn't that I gave up everything and moved to a musical refuge and started singing for the next several years. No, it was an incredible struggle for me because I had for a period of time to think about how to balance my business life. I was still a mother. I was still a wife. I still had all kinds of responsibilities. I still had a company to run and I wanted to fit in music.

23:09And this is why I've told other people before, I would get up on Saturdays at 4am in the morning, every Saturday, and I would work intense schedules during the week, 4am to 6am. I would drive for two hours to Wesleyan, have a class from 8 a.m., from 6 a.m. to 8 a.m., and then drive back again and be back by 10, 10, 15, because my little baby would wake up. She'd be waking up by about 11. Thank goodness she was a late riser. And it's fine on a summer's day to do that, but try doing it when you're scraping ice off your car in the middle of winter and you're not even sure how icy the roads are at 4.30 in the morning.

23:51And I wasn't a particularly adventurous driver. So these used to be terrifying moments. So sometimes I would leave at 3.15 just so I could drive slowly, but I was going to get to my class. So it required a lot of adjustments in my life. And working with NYU in the early years, and even now to some degree, nobody even knew I was doing it. I was doing it for myself. I wasn't doing it because I wanted fame or fortune, I would spend hours at the school. I would spend hours with the students, not because anyone cared, but because I felt this is what I should be doing. I didn't give up anything else.

24:28I just rearranged some of the hours in the day. I stopped watching mindless TV. I stopped doing some of the great movies, the great shows. They all suffered a little bit until I found my rhythm. You attribute much of your success to your mentors. And now you are being a mentor. Can you give us insights into finding a mentor, using a mentor, optimizing mentorship, and then flip it around? How does one be a great mentor? In terms of finding a mentor, one has to look at two sides of this coin. One is people will very openly and actively and energetically mentor you if you have done something good for them.

25:18There's something that they have to see. Every mentor of mine were mostly some of my teachers. And I really worked very hard in their classes. They remembered what I did in their classes. So they were my best mentors. And I can name them from the time I went to lower school, kindergarten, I've had mentors. And my headmistress. But I did very well in school. But it wasn't that I was academically good. I just took on a lot of jobs at school. So this is one of the things I would say to myself, my younger self, and to everybody else. You don't just walk into somebody and say, oh, please be my mentor.

25:54You have to do something. Go beyond what is your call of duty. A lot of my clients have really stepped up for me. It's like a cycle of karma, but I did a lot for them in years when I didn't even know I was doing a lot for them Because I didn't care much about myself, I was very, very focused on their success or the institution's success. Karma has got a very long reach and it comes back in good and bad ways. And this is like the great karma coming back to help you. Now, the second side of it, of this brilliant question you asked me is, how do you become a mentor? This requires a generosity of spirit.

26:35It's so easy to decide not to do anything. There's so many other ways one can spend your time. To decide to be a mentor is not just saying, oh, I'm your mentor, thank you very much, how nice to see you. Very often it requires time. It requires many, many sessions with them. It requires sometimes putting yourself on the line to help them and really make sure when they're in a difficult situation to help them through it. So there's so many shades of responsibilities that being a mentor carries. And very often, younger people are afraid to come and ask you about it. So you have to seek out opportunities.

27:14And I'm very lucky because being in a university and being very available gives me a lot of opportunities to connect with many kids. Now, it's conscious and unconscious. I think many times, many kids write to me and say, oh, I heard you speak. I heard you say this. I heard you do this. I was inspired. And I'm going to do that. But I'm going to say one thing to you. And this happened to me this weekend. I was in Washington, D.C. I was training a group of high school children to sing. We're going to sing together in two weeks. There were 250 of them. And one of the kids asked me, oh, I'm so inspired by you.

27:51How can I follow in your footsteps and what advice you have that I can follow in your footsteps and so on? What I said to her, and this is something I've been thinking about all weekend. I said to her, it would be most awful if you followed in my footsteps. Because what you have is footsteps that are so giant, with so much power and so much potential, that you're going to be creating big footsteps and big strides and big paths for yourself. Take lessons from everyone. Good lessons, bad lessons, but it's up to each and every one of us to create our own footsteps. our own strides, our own paths.